Wisard
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Charm Learning Shard (Worm/Exalted) (COMPLETED)
- Thread starter Daniel Snuts
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*Angry Erin Solstice noises*
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Doesn't actually matter. Taylor has mastered people a few times and dropped them like used tissues after she is done. I suppose it's more like she hardly cares since none of them are powered, just a simple chore done to keep to her rep.
L.22
Daniel Snuts
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You bask in the familiar sensation of a power settling in and becoming a part of you. Three days, that's ridiculous. Labyrinth is arguably the strongest cape you've studied so far, yet you figured her out in three days flat. As compared to a solid eight days for the considerably less impressive Faultline, just to give one example among many. You've officially given up on understanding how you're understanding these things, but at least you're saving money right now.
Now for the hard part: Figuring out exactly what power just you got. You never seem to copy things exactly, and the mechanics of exactly how things change are as opaque to you as the apparent variation in complexity. You still don't know how to use the power you got from Lung (another contender for strongest cape studied, whose power took you two days).
You try to activate your new power, and feel a dimensional shift taking hold right away. Thank god, it's one of the cooperative ones. The chess pieces start to crumble, wearing away into fine silvery sand.
"What? What's happening?" Labyrinth asks.
Oh, you probably should have waited until you were alone to try it out. You thought you could just affect some tiny detail that wouldn't be noticed. Instead the chess set has been completely reduced to sand. How do you control this thing? The sand is spreading across the floor. How do you turn it off? You take a spill as the bed you're sitting on turns into sand, and then you're tumbling down a dune. The world is spinning and all you can see is silver sand and black sky. Wait, sky?
You come to a stop lying on your back at the bottom of the dune. Your hair and clothes are full of sand, but your shitty Brute powers saved you from being overly bruised or abraded. You get to your feet with a groan and look around. You spot Labyrinth lying some distance away and hurry over to help her. Oh, ouch. She's not a Brute. It looks nasty, but she's not bleeding too badly.
"Where are we?" she asks as you help her to her feet.
"I don't know. We'll have to climb back up and take a look around."
You have to steady her at first, but she seems to be recovering. By the time you're back at the top of the dune she's walking on her own. The view that greets you isn't encouraging. The sky is pitch black without moon or stars, but the silver sand is glowing faintly, enough that you have no trouble seeing. And what you see is sand. Endless desert, stretching to the horizon in all directions.
"Is this one of your places?" you ask. You noticed that she had several distinct dimensions she was pulling things from, each with its own 'theme'. The desert is new, though.
"No, it's- the worlds, they're gone!"
"What?"
"I, I can't reach any of my worlds." She sounds terrified.
"You can't bring us back?" you ask.
"I don't even know how we got here. My power doesn't work like this."
"And you can't bring anything here? Like, say, food and water?"
Labyrinth shakes her head mutely. Shit. Okay, this is clearly you fault. You owe it to her to get her out of this - not that you were planning on dying in an otherworldly desert regardless. You close your eyes and poke at your new power. It accidentally walked you into hell, now how do you walk back out? Come on, bullshit power intuition.
Aha! Wait, shit! Okay, you can do this. You just have to keep telling yourself you can do this.
"We had better get moving at once," you say. "Come on, it's this way." You start walking.
"How do you know?" she asks.
"Just a feeling," you say, looking back over your shoulder. "Do you have a better idea?"
She shakes her head again and follows you.
---
"You seem different," you remark. "I think you've talked more since you got here than you did over the last three days."
"It's my worlds. They're all gone, so there is more space for... me."
"You know that Faultline hoped that I could figure out some way to help you once I understood your power?"
"Yeah."
"Well, mission accomplished I guess." You scowl. "All I had to do was strand us in an isolated hell dimension."
Labyrinth reaches out and squeezes your shoulder. Huh, initiating physical contact. She really is different.
"It's not so bad," she says, "the Bad World is much worse."
You can hear the capitalization, and decide not to ask for details. Probably the one you called the Asylum. At least you hope so, you'd hate to think she had something worse than that. Instead of dwelling on such things, you hand her your cellphone.
"Here. Record a message saying as much. I'll hold it out in front of me when we get back and maybe I won't get murdered on the spot."
"She's going to be pretty angry, isn't she?" Labyrinth muses. "I wonder how much damage was done to the club this time? I remember her being upset about that before, even though she tried to hide it.
"But can't I just- oh." Yeah. Sounds like she just realized that this is temporary: Once you escape this isolated place her power will come back and everything will be back to normal. It takes her a while to compose herself and record a message that won't do more harm than good after that.
---
Labyrinth lies down and refuses to get up. When you try to coax her, she holds up your phone, showing the time. Oh. You arrived late last evening, and now it's apparently eight in the morning. The sun hasn't come up, though. You don't think this place even has a sun. You decide that calling a halt is reasonable.
"How much longer?" she asks.
You shrug. "Several days at least, I think." You know exactly how long it will take, but you're afraid that if you tell the truth she'll just give up then and there.
She groans and covers her eyes with her arm. You lie down next to her and try to get some sleep.
When you wake up, you start walking again.
---
The night never ends. This probably saves your lives. It remains dark and chilly, and you sweat relatively little as you walk. The makeshift urine-filtering device your Tinker 0 powers rig up probably also saves your lives, but the less said about that the better. It doesn't work all that well, that's more than enough said.
---
The second day wasn't too bad. The third day was awful. Day four Labyrinth became delirious, but she remained cooperative enough that you could lead her by the hand. On day five she wouldn't wake up, but wasn't considerate enough to stop breathing.
So you plod onwards, carrying Labyrinth on your back. She's not all that much smaller than you are, and you aren't all that much stronger that a normal human.
Your resentment involves a certain amount of envy. If not for your shitty Brute powers, you could be comatose right now, too. Instead you're getting to enjoy every nuance of dying of thirst in exquisite slow motion. With a sack of rocks on your back.
Once you're certain she won't wake up, you start cheating by using mind-hands to take up most of her weight. It helps, for a while. But your mind isn't in the best shape either right now, and you're having trouble keeping its hands on task. They have a tendency to drift off and fade away whenever your concentration slips.
Oh, you stopped. Stopping is bad. You had better stop doing that. Heh, stop stopping, stupid. Your feet were hurting before, but now you can't feel them at all. Maybe they've been worn away completely, and you're walking on the stumps? You don't look down to check, just in case. Your vision is too blurry to see much anyway - that's not a symptom of anything, you just had to discard your contact lenses days ago.
You keep expecting to see four-armed Scion, or the sandworm. But it's the wrong desert, this one is real. You think. Real-ish. You keep seeing something in the corner of your eye, but every time it's just Labyrinth's head resting on your shoulder. At least she's too dehydrated to drool on you.
You're pretty sure that you aren't plodding in a straight line any more, but trying to turn around and look at your tracks seems like an excellent way to fall over and never get up again. And that's just too goddamn tempting to consider.
The world is fading in and out, that probably means you're delirious too, now. But your surroundings are subtly different each time, which means that you're still walking. How are you still walking, loaded down as you are? Wait, are you? You feel a spike of panic. You must have dropped Labyrinth! Oh, no, there she is on your back, just where you left her. Yet you're still walking. It's a mystery.
There is sand in your face. Sand in your face means you've fallen down! You flail your limbs about and feel the sand shifting around you. You're lying on on your back, underneath the sand. Not very deep, though. You manage to clear away enough sand that you can breathe, and open your eyes. The sky is dark - but not black, and there are clouds! You made it!
With some struggling you get into a sitting position. You note with relief that Labyrinth is sprawled next to you, not inexplicably buried. You're sitting in a patch of glowing silver sand in the middle of a city. You recognize the buildings - this is exactly what Brockton Bay would look like, if the Palanquin nightclub was a faintly glowing desert.
Speak of the devil, that's Faultline & Co approaching right now. When they recognize you they break into a run. Most of them cluster around Labyrinth with various exclamations of relief and concern, but Faultline herself is focused on you. You prepare an eloquent explanation of your situation, and a stirring defense of your actions.
"Water," you croak, and pass out.
===
Now for the hard part: Figuring out exactly what power just you got. You never seem to copy things exactly, and the mechanics of exactly how things change are as opaque to you as the apparent variation in complexity. You still don't know how to use the power you got from Lung (another contender for strongest cape studied, whose power took you two days).
You try to activate your new power, and feel a dimensional shift taking hold right away. Thank god, it's one of the cooperative ones. The chess pieces start to crumble, wearing away into fine silvery sand.
"What? What's happening?" Labyrinth asks.
Oh, you probably should have waited until you were alone to try it out. You thought you could just affect some tiny detail that wouldn't be noticed. Instead the chess set has been completely reduced to sand. How do you control this thing? The sand is spreading across the floor. How do you turn it off? You take a spill as the bed you're sitting on turns into sand, and then you're tumbling down a dune. The world is spinning and all you can see is silver sand and black sky. Wait, sky?
You come to a stop lying on your back at the bottom of the dune. Your hair and clothes are full of sand, but your shitty Brute powers saved you from being overly bruised or abraded. You get to your feet with a groan and look around. You spot Labyrinth lying some distance away and hurry over to help her. Oh, ouch. She's not a Brute. It looks nasty, but she's not bleeding too badly.
"Where are we?" she asks as you help her to her feet.
"I don't know. We'll have to climb back up and take a look around."
You have to steady her at first, but she seems to be recovering. By the time you're back at the top of the dune she's walking on her own. The view that greets you isn't encouraging. The sky is pitch black without moon or stars, but the silver sand is glowing faintly, enough that you have no trouble seeing. And what you see is sand. Endless desert, stretching to the horizon in all directions.
"Is this one of your places?" you ask. You noticed that she had several distinct dimensions she was pulling things from, each with its own 'theme'. The desert is new, though.
"No, it's- the worlds, they're gone!"
"What?"
"I, I can't reach any of my worlds." She sounds terrified.
"You can't bring us back?" you ask.
"I don't even know how we got here. My power doesn't work like this."
"And you can't bring anything here? Like, say, food and water?"
Labyrinth shakes her head mutely. Shit. Okay, this is clearly you fault. You owe it to her to get her out of this - not that you were planning on dying in an otherworldly desert regardless. You close your eyes and poke at your new power. It accidentally walked you into hell, now how do you walk back out? Come on, bullshit power intuition.
Aha! Wait, shit! Okay, you can do this. You just have to keep telling yourself you can do this.
"We had better get moving at once," you say. "Come on, it's this way." You start walking.
"How do you know?" she asks.
"Just a feeling," you say, looking back over your shoulder. "Do you have a better idea?"
She shakes her head again and follows you.
---
"You seem different," you remark. "I think you've talked more since you got here than you did over the last three days."
"It's my worlds. They're all gone, so there is more space for... me."
"You know that Faultline hoped that I could figure out some way to help you once I understood your power?"
"Yeah."
"Well, mission accomplished I guess." You scowl. "All I had to do was strand us in an isolated hell dimension."
Labyrinth reaches out and squeezes your shoulder. Huh, initiating physical contact. She really is different.
"It's not so bad," she says, "the Bad World is much worse."
You can hear the capitalization, and decide not to ask for details. Probably the one you called the Asylum. At least you hope so, you'd hate to think she had something worse than that. Instead of dwelling on such things, you hand her your cellphone.
"Here. Record a message saying as much. I'll hold it out in front of me when we get back and maybe I won't get murdered on the spot."
"She's going to be pretty angry, isn't she?" Labyrinth muses. "I wonder how much damage was done to the club this time? I remember her being upset about that before, even though she tried to hide it.
"But can't I just- oh." Yeah. Sounds like she just realized that this is temporary: Once you escape this isolated place her power will come back and everything will be back to normal. It takes her a while to compose herself and record a message that won't do more harm than good after that.
---
Labyrinth lies down and refuses to get up. When you try to coax her, she holds up your phone, showing the time. Oh. You arrived late last evening, and now it's apparently eight in the morning. The sun hasn't come up, though. You don't think this place even has a sun. You decide that calling a halt is reasonable.
"How much longer?" she asks.
You shrug. "Several days at least, I think." You know exactly how long it will take, but you're afraid that if you tell the truth she'll just give up then and there.
She groans and covers her eyes with her arm. You lie down next to her and try to get some sleep.
When you wake up, you start walking again.
---
The night never ends. This probably saves your lives. It remains dark and chilly, and you sweat relatively little as you walk. The makeshift urine-filtering device your Tinker 0 powers rig up probably also saves your lives, but the less said about that the better. It doesn't work all that well, that's more than enough said.
---
The second day wasn't too bad. The third day was awful. Day four Labyrinth became delirious, but she remained cooperative enough that you could lead her by the hand. On day five she wouldn't wake up, but wasn't considerate enough to stop breathing.
So you plod onwards, carrying Labyrinth on your back. She's not all that much smaller than you are, and you aren't all that much stronger that a normal human.
Your resentment involves a certain amount of envy. If not for your shitty Brute powers, you could be comatose right now, too. Instead you're getting to enjoy every nuance of dying of thirst in exquisite slow motion. With a sack of rocks on your back.
Once you're certain she won't wake up, you start cheating by using mind-hands to take up most of her weight. It helps, for a while. But your mind isn't in the best shape either right now, and you're having trouble keeping its hands on task. They have a tendency to drift off and fade away whenever your concentration slips.
Oh, you stopped. Stopping is bad. You had better stop doing that. Heh, stop stopping, stupid. Your feet were hurting before, but now you can't feel them at all. Maybe they've been worn away completely, and you're walking on the stumps? You don't look down to check, just in case. Your vision is too blurry to see much anyway - that's not a symptom of anything, you just had to discard your contact lenses days ago.
You keep expecting to see four-armed Scion, or the sandworm. But it's the wrong desert, this one is real. You think. Real-ish. You keep seeing something in the corner of your eye, but every time it's just Labyrinth's head resting on your shoulder. At least she's too dehydrated to drool on you.
You're pretty sure that you aren't plodding in a straight line any more, but trying to turn around and look at your tracks seems like an excellent way to fall over and never get up again. And that's just too goddamn tempting to consider.
The world is fading in and out, that probably means you're delirious too, now. But your surroundings are subtly different each time, which means that you're still walking. How are you still walking, loaded down as you are? Wait, are you? You feel a spike of panic. You must have dropped Labyrinth! Oh, no, there she is on your back, just where you left her. Yet you're still walking. It's a mystery.
There is sand in your face. Sand in your face means you've fallen down! You flail your limbs about and feel the sand shifting around you. You're lying on on your back, underneath the sand. Not very deep, though. You manage to clear away enough sand that you can breathe, and open your eyes. The sky is dark - but not black, and there are clouds! You made it!
With some struggling you get into a sitting position. You note with relief that Labyrinth is sprawled next to you, not inexplicably buried. You're sitting in a patch of glowing silver sand in the middle of a city. You recognize the buildings - this is exactly what Brockton Bay would look like, if the Palanquin nightclub was a faintly glowing desert.
Speak of the devil, that's Faultline & Co approaching right now. When they recognize you they break into a run. Most of them cluster around Labyrinth with various exclamations of relief and concern, but Faultline herself is focused on you. You prepare an eloquent explanation of your situation, and a stirring defense of your actions.
"Water," you croak, and pass out.
===
Charms:
Taylor: All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight, ???
Tattletale: Know the Soul's Price
Bitch: Spirit-Tied Pet
Aegis: Ox-Body Technique
Browbeat: Shaping the Ideal Form
Dragon: Implicit Construction Methodology
Kid Win: Industry and Forge Wisdom
Lung: ???
Vista: Mind-Hand Manipulation
Cricket: Mantis Form
Faultline: Charm of Lesser Unmaking
Labyrinth: Hell-Walker Technique
Taylor: All-Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight, ???
Tattletale: Know the Soul's Price
Bitch: Spirit-Tied Pet
Aegis: Ox-Body Technique
Browbeat: Shaping the Ideal Form
Dragon: Implicit Construction Methodology
Kid Win: Industry and Forge Wisdom
Lung: ???
Vista: Mind-Hand Manipulation
Cricket: Mantis Form
Faultline: Charm of Lesser Unmaking
Labyrinth: Hell-Walker Technique
The bad news: You accidentally Cecylene (a primordial god-thing that takes the form of an endless desert) and gave her a foothold in your reality.
The good news: Walking for five days just put you back in the real world, which means you didn't accidentally Malfeas (a primordial god-thing that takes the form of a vast city populated by trillions of demons).
Usually Hell-Walker Technique just brings you into Cecylene, and doesn't leave a permanent foothold behind. However, intersecting Labyrinth's power with other explicitly dimensional effects canonically creates permanent rifts*. In this case, the DM rules the effect to be as if you'd also used Holy Land Infliction and Dune-Drowned Oasis Ritual, sacrificing yourselves. With you being Essence 3 and her being Essence 2, you just brought 2500 square yards of infinite desert into Earth Bet.
*Yes, I know, all parahuman powers are implicitly dimensional effects, and this effect makes no sense. That's canon for you.
The good news: Walking for five days just put you back in the real world, which means you didn't accidentally Malfeas (a primordial god-thing that takes the form of a vast city populated by trillions of demons).
Usually Hell-Walker Technique just brings you into Cecylene, and doesn't leave a permanent foothold behind. However, intersecting Labyrinth's power with other explicitly dimensional effects canonically creates permanent rifts*. In this case, the DM rules the effect to be as if you'd also used Holy Land Infliction and Dune-Drowned Oasis Ritual, sacrificing yourselves. With you being Essence 3 and her being Essence 2, you just brought 2500 square yards of infinite desert into Earth Bet.
*Yes, I know, all parahuman powers are implicitly dimensional effects, and this effect makes no sense. That's canon for you.
NotaWriter
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Does this means that someone could lose themselves in this patch of desert, walk five days and reach Malfeas? And conversely that demons can get to Earth Bet?(by the way since it's not Creation, are there still limits for higher rank demons that get to earth?)
She might have also sort of fixed Labirinth, if she can regains her sanity by staying on the patch. Would also be interesting to see if it's only her power not working in the desert or if it is all of them.
I also have a few question about her charm, will she be pulled into the desert for 5 days every time she uses it? can she return only to this patch?
yeah, explaining why that happened without implicating herself will be interesting.
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Earth-Destroyer
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It takes 5 day to traverse the Infinite desert, it does not matter if you take a single step a day, or fly faster then sound the entire time, so long as your traveling Cecylene Will get you across her span. Demons can enter the desert but not leave anywhere but malfeas. Their was this one second circle that can make a few hundred miles of road a day that spent a few centuries trying to forge a path out but was unable. Now if you know how you can invite a demon into your world, but that stuff is super unlikely to randomly happen. Big question is if their time in the desert was 5 days on earth, or if they arrived back almost when they left.
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Earth-Destroyer
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Also just checked and that combination means that their is a new 1 dot Cecelyne demesne in the Palanquin nightclub. That could have cool effects and bring something new to the table.
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PlasticSoldier
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I don't think any time passed in the real world. Taylor was walking for days but when she got back Faultline's Crew was still where they were when she left and the Palanquin wasn't surrounded by a bunch of PRT people like it would be if a few days had passed since a desert ate it.
QuickSilverD
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I'm not sure what is happening here, could anyone explain?
Dakkah
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Labyrinth charm is: Hell-Walker Technique, and with how some folk keep mentioning demons it seems to be literal. (stuck for 5 days travel time regardless of speed or distance)
demonitter
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The desert effect was part of the transition to the desert and not "real" I think, Faultline and Co keeping watch on the place where they disappeared is sensible and most of them being there a minor coincidence.
QuickSilverD
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Is this 5 days real-time? cause that is going to have consequences.
NotaWriter
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I think the limit is that they cannot get into Creation if they are not summoned, but Earth Bet isn't Creation.
anechoic
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Every demon has an escape condition, which is how thaumaturgical beckoning works, but generally yes.
Zxzx24
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Do you need food and water in the endless sands?
Rule of thumb is humans can survive 3 days without getting any extra water... they were there for five.
In a hot desert it seems like.
Labyrinth should be fucking dead.
Rule of thumb is humans can survive 3 days without getting any extra water... they were there for five.
In a hot desert it seems like.
Labyrinth should be fucking dead.
omni001
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Just thought of another question, how bad would Taylor or someone else trying to summon a demon be?
I'm not familiar with Exalted so how dangerous or difficult is it to work with this settings demons assuming the summoner knows what their doing?
I'm not familiar with Exalted so how dangerous or difficult is it to work with this settings demons assuming the summoner knows what their doing?
Dakkah
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Not a clue mate, never played Exalted but it has been a cliche that time flows differently in hell (and Hell-like:TM: )
More concerning would be that she just linked two planes and that never ends well, let alone when the desert itself apparently delights in growing. (If I understood the lore correctly)
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Zxzx24 chapter mentions a shoddy Macgyvert waterfilter (It was Pee ZX, it was pee all along)
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Zxzx24
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Huh it did. Thank you.
That probably did save them yeah. Same as the endless night I suppose. (Is it supposed to be dark in the endless desert?)
It is also interesting that this is the second time Taylor went to Cecylene. Once in the dream quest and now she physically goes there and opens a bridge between her world and it.
Maybe this is more than just coincidence?
R.A.G.
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Given how the place isn't sealed off by the PRT I'm going to second that it probably hasn't been 5 days outside. Probably not even five hours if the whole group is still there.
Having gone to a school nearly as shit as Winslow, I don't know much about either. So, eh, seems like a reasonable take for her.
Earth-Destroyer
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Depend on if she counts as an actual Exalted. Exalted can do the surrender oaths force demons to do things for them for a year, or a task, if they beat them in a contest of wills. It is quite possible to rig that to be unable to fail with the right boosting.
A mortal can use that same spell but the demon will be automatically unbound and free to do it thing, and they basically all try to kill upstart mortals using that spell.
Mortals can beacon first circle demons with the right ritual, for a time, vastly harder for the 2ed, and basically impossible for 3rd circle the strongest demons. They will be unbound but the beckoning always evolves fulfilling their core purpose, so it is fully possible to manage them even unbound if you know what your doing. Common since stuff like a the liquid crystal wasp always need a rider, don't allow kids around the demon construction crew if you don't want them integrated into the architecture.
Paralein
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Oh, nice. More elements of the Exalted universe crossing over into Worm's is a very promising development.
I think Taylor slowly sliding into a more Empire-accepting mindset is very realistic, considering that in the real world, Empire 88-esque organizations get a lot of recruits from people similar to her: social outcasts and people who feel betrayed/left behind by society.
It's still depressing to read, and this might steer things into new directions.
I think Taylor slowly sliding into a more Empire-accepting mindset is very realistic, considering that in the real world, Empire 88-esque organizations get a lot of recruits from people similar to her: social outcasts and people who feel betrayed/left behind by society.
It's still depressing to read, and this might steer things into new directions.
omegasrevenge
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Can someone explain what practical effects this event will have on the future? For someone who only knows that Exalted exists and basically not much more. From what I could glean, the new charm is basically completely useless for Taylor, and she somehow opened up a portal to a hellish place that is now a permanent fixture?
R.A.G.
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Another eldritch being horny for endless expansion has an in into reality.
Also, it's looking more and more like this shard accidentally grabbed an actual Solar Exaltation without knowing what the fuck it was doing somehow.
Earth-Destroyer
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An area of the world was replaced by a bit of an infinite sized being. Not much really thou it just small area, and without active worship it cannot grow. it is a 1 dot Cecelyne demesne which will cause It do develop a very small scale effect related to Cecelyne. Which is, order, might makes right, expansion some others.
Paralein
I trust you know where the happy button is?
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Yeah. Taylor's powers dragging (part of) a (very) major demon from Exalted into Earth Bet does not sound like a shard just emulating the powers of an exalt.
Although I do admit I only know bits of the lore of Exalted - definitely not enough to be really able to say how this might affect Taylor or Brockton and its denizens.
https://thirdexalt.fandom.com/wiki/Cecelyne,_The_Endless_Desert
But since speculation is fun: if Cecelyne's major drive is the need to expand and grow, she'll most likely not exactly be displeased by gaining a foothold in a (maybe?) entirely new world/universe. And if her subordinate demons are creatures of the desert, I also see certain parallels with Taylor's canon powers - the article I linked mentions scorpions, but theres definitely also lots of bugs and other insects that live in deserts. Although the mentioned vultures and mice definitely don't fit, so maybe that's me just overthinking things.
Although I do admit I only know bits of the lore of Exalted - definitely not enough to be really able to say how this might affect Taylor or Brockton and its denizens.
https://thirdexalt.fandom.com/wiki/Cecelyne,_The_Endless_Desert
But since speculation is fun: if Cecelyne's major drive is the need to expand and grow, she'll most likely not exactly be displeased by gaining a foothold in a (maybe?) entirely new world/universe. And if her subordinate demons are creatures of the desert, I also see certain parallels with Taylor's canon powers - the article I linked mentions scorpions, but theres definitely also lots of bugs and other insects that live in deserts. Although the mentioned vultures and mice definitely don't fit, so maybe that's me just overthinking things.