Exaltations, Plot and Crossovers

[Heaven Canceler]

So, I noticed the interesting trend that people tend to use Exaltations and giving them to Main or other characters in a series as a plot device. Give a character an Exaltation, possibly one that was cursed to failure or some horrible fate, and it adds instant awesome to the story.

I am not against it, though the fact that it is repeated so often makes me wonder why I haven't seen some variation. Like you are that smart guy, and your best friend just Exalted as a Glorious Bullshit Solar and you have to keep him away from being discovered, stop him from getting the whole power to get to his head and generally make sure he doesn't do something stupid.

Still, I have also noticed that some Exaltations are more... well popular for use. Here is a little list with some of the info I have, please note that I am far from an Expert in Exalted, so this is mostly what I gathered from observing and got through osmosis.

Also, mostly I want this thread to be a bit of a discussion thread for these with more knowledge of Exalted. To talk about why some Exalted types are more often used and if we can make them somehow more attractive for use in stories, since I think some like the Sidereals would be interesting to see more often.

Also to talk about how to make stories using them. There is a separate Worm Thread after all. (Since this is more General discussion, I hope I am right that it belongs into General instead of Creative Writing)

Exaltations

Solars
Solar Exaltations are the most common to appear in crossovers from what I have noticed. I don't know if the same goes for normal fanfiction, but I consider it at least possible. They are powerful, really powerful. To the point where they are gamebreaking in any setting that doesn't have sufficient power-levels. They are also shiny, tend to end up with people that are already awesome or have the potential to be awesome and give them Glorious Solar Bullshit. They are split into various Castes.

Dawns, which are warriors and generals are the first caste of the Solars. I haven't seen much of them actually, they seem to be mostly the swordfighter type. Zenith are priests and leaders, I cannot remember, but I think the Shugo Chara Crossover had Amu as a Zenith, but that is all I can remember. Twilight are magicians, scholars and savants and thus the auto-choice for people most of the time. Honestly, people take Twilight almost as much as they take wizard/sorcerer in a D&D style setting. Nights are assassins, spies and have the whole secret agent thing going for them. I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone use them in a story I noticed. Weird, considering something like a James Bond can easily work. Eclipse are diplomats and I honestly cannot remember where they were used, though I feel like there were one or two cases.

The number of people that could Exalt in crossovers is equal to the number of people that achieve something really awesome. So most protagonists in an action series are good and also a good deal of side characters could work. Honestly, this is probably the easiest choice unless you want to exalt an unimportant side character or someone who never does anything worthy of admiration.

Lunars
Okay, the Lunars are kind of an odd case. They are partners to Solars and I have honestly not seen much of them in fanfiction. At least in the crossovers I have seen. They just seem to not be important for the most part in these stories or just never appear. I am not really sure how Lunars work, but they have ridiculous shape shifting, are generally crazy good at survival and can generally get almost as good at most stuff as Solars.

They seem to generally be assistants and foils to the Solars, but I really cannot say much more since I honestly haven't gotten into much contact with them at all. I think it could be interesting to see more of them since they appear to be interesting.

Lunars exalt by surviving something that they shouldn't survive by all rights and/or breaking some kind of societal taboo. Some kind of battle would be possible, or going through the wild and eating a human's corpse for survival, or some other thing. An example could be a Misaka Clone in To aru surviving for longer than the original in combat against Accelerator. (I believe Mu-Sensei suggested this at some point.)

Infernals
I believe this group is right after the Solars in the amount of people using them. Even just glancing over stories, I can remember some uses of them. They are apparently really well liked and I cannot really hold it against them. Their concept is highly interesting and they allow for great potential from what I understand. They also seem more balanced in which Yozi is used for the Caste equivalent instead of the Solars. Each Yozi has some awesome stuff and there are people who want to favour each at some point for the most part.

The Infernals work by emulating their favored Yozi in some way, and depending on how well they do that, they can equal if not go above Solars. Also, they can turn into a giant Eldritch City of what the heck do I understand, so I think they are pretty awesome.

Infernals are these that failed, that had the potential to achieve something, but for some reason didn't do it. Maybe they weren't strong enough and lost some big battle; maybe they were scared and gave up or ran away. Whatever, the Yozi send a demon out and give them the chance to gain phenomenal cosmic power in exchange for getting them out of enslavement.

For the most part, this kind of sucks as a way to get someone an Exaltation unless you get creative. It does have quite a bit potential for Anti-Heroes or unwilling villains and you can totally get out of the whole "Free the Yozi" thing if you do it right from what I know. Some potential choices for an Infernal could be a Shirou Emiya who failed, maybe an Arturia? I believe there was a fanfic where Louise failed at the summoning and got a call from Malfeas and there is another with the Baby-Making lady on this website.

Abyssals
Abyssals are Deathknights who serve the Neverborn. Where the Infernals have it great with good powers and the chance to get freedom, they are kind of screwed. They have to do villainous stuff to not have horrible shit happen to them and generally have to treat others like shit. Except their Lunar mate from what I read. Where Solars make themselves better at things, Abyssals make others worse and seem generally really screwed up.

I think they get chosen from people that are about to die and get the choice for a full heal and an eternal term as deathknights under the Neverborn. They do get awesome (And at the same time horrible) powers from what I understand, but if they don't keep doing horrible shit every so often, horrible shit starts to happen to them and everyone around them.

In addition, if they actually manage to go the redemption route, they don't become free but instead turn into a normal Solar. Which probably means that they lose a bunch of powers and/or turn them into their Solar equivalent. There is no really good Abyssal.

I haven't read anything involving them myself, but they seem rather well liked by people. And I believe I have seen some stuff where the MC is an Abyssal, I think there was something about a Taylor being one? Honestly though, the entire being an Abyssal sucks unless you are already a horrible person and don't mind the mass-murder and perpetual super-villain action.

Terrestrials
Or as I prefer to call them, Dragonblooded, is where it gets interesting. Because I haven't seen a single story with a Dragonblooded protagonist aside from the one short-lived one where Louise summons a freshly Exalted Pseudo-Saito from Creation? I am not sure why, maybe because they aren't as flashy or awesome, or because they don't get as powerful? Though I guess a part of it could be that Dragonborn are well, team players. They are soldiers and warriors and as such are strongest when fighting together with others of their kind.

I can see how that would make any story with a Dragonblooded Protagonist harder since you would have to make some others also Dragonblooded to get the full potential. It could be interesting if you do it with some super-hero team or some Sentai group like the Power Rangers though. Since they get chosen by bloodline, it is a bit more complicated to use them in crossovers. But that is what genetics or magic bullshit is for.

Sidereals
The Fate Ninjas who go can turn you into a duck by punching, hide in cereal bowls and change the entire geography and history of a place during combat. Honestly, of all the Exalted they seem some of the craziest since they aren't simply about power, but about really screwing over reality. They change fate, time and all that mumbo jumbo to retroactively turn you into their best friend who would serve them forever. They get forgotten pretty fast due to some weird effect and need a special technique to interact with people often.

Now why would they not be used more often in crossovers? Because I honestly cannot remember a single fanfic I read where the MC was a Sidereal. Well, I think I saw one Avatar Last Airbender one flying around somewhere, but it didn't catch my interest.

I think one major problem is that a big part of their powers is working with the local rules. They are basically asking the Celestial bureaucracy to do something when they warp reality. In another setting, without the loom of fate... honestly my through osmosis gained knowledge of Exalted isn't enough to tell me if they would even be able to use their abilities there.

Also, every Sidereal is apparently chosen from birth to Exalt and other Sidereals know of it. So unless you are the very first Sidereal, (Which is possible in a Crossovers I guess) you will likely get recruited at the latest shortly before Exaltation. It makes crossovers more complicated unless you go with "Exaltation is confused by lack of Fate system, grabs random person and exalts him/her in hopes of that person repairing/recreating fate...)

There are more, but this is where I am starting to be uncomfortable about using my limited knowledge. I really don't know enough about the other kind of Exalted to be of use here.

 

[Biigoh]

No Goblin Queen love from Heaven Canceler? ahum... I mean... no Raksha or Godblooded love?

 

[Heaven Canceler]

They are under, "I have a vague idea of them, but I don't feel comfortable giving info of them because of my lack of knowledge". I also haven't read Goblin Queen, sorry Biigoh. Worm stories rarely catch my interest unless it Looks quite interesting and uses something I know.

 

[kinglugia]

Ah, damn, and here I thought I get to share an idea about an Exalted crossover my muse is asking me to post...

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Well, there is no reason to not mention it here. If the thread actually turns into a full blown idea discussion, we can always ask a mod to move it over to Creative Writing.

 

[Biigoh]

The thing is... exaltation is bullshit power, you need to go in with a good idea of what you want to do. It's why I went with a godblooded or faeblooded with a 5 dot to N/A dot grade patron because I am familiar enough with exalted to play with it.

That said, you should check out Goblin Queen because tanuki needs more minio.... erm... readers ^_^

 

[Biigoh]

Also, the thing with using Sidereals is this.... outside of Creation, Sidereal charmset gets hit with massive nerfs due to the environment and people/creatures in it being outside of fate.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

If'n this Plot were going to write this sort of thing, they'd...
probably use a Khaucon instead. Not absurdly potent, and aesthetically pretty interesting.
Though it'd take some wrangling to insert one, since being one is either ritualistically self inflicted or hereditary.

...GodDAMMIT Plot, stop talking about homebrew every time you see something about exalted here!

 

[Green Sun Over Paradise]

Baby-Making lady on this website

Click to shrink...

Holla!

Its called the Gravid Maiden, unfortunately for all of you, I'm stuck doing a fuck ton of projects for the year end, so I won't be updating it for a while now.

 

[Drak4806]

I personally tend to not like stories where the main character exalts as a Solar because eventually they seem to turn into a Mary Sue. I know that's kind of part of being a Solar and exalted in general, but there are ways to not have the character act like a Mary Sue and have the story become a wank fest.

 

[Green Sun Over Paradise]

I personally tend to not like stories where the main character exalts as a Solar because eventually they seem to turn into a Mary Sue. I know that's kind of part of being a Solar and exalted in general, but there are ways to not have the character act like a Mary Sue and have the story become a wank fest.

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A well done Infernal story can avoid that if the writer plays up how wierd the Green Sun Princes are as a group. Sure, Asuka or Louise will be able to feed a small army of elite soldiers their own hair with minimal fuss, but if its set to the back drop of them becoming inhuman Neo-Primordials then it is much better than just an Exalted cutting their way through mooks.

Solars have it harder, I have to say. They're superhuman in just about every regard, and with even just a bit of training the can surpass a lot of the cast within a crossover. They also avoid the conflict generated by the transformations that occur with Infernals and Abyssals.

 

[Drak4806]

A well done Infernal story can avoid that if the writer plays up how wierd the Green Sun Princes are as a group. Sure, Asuka or Louise will be able to feed a small army of elite soldiers their own hair with minimal fuss, but if its set to the back drop of them becoming inhuman Neo-Primordials then it is much better than just an Exalted cutting their way through mooks.

Solars have it harder, I have to say. They're superhuman in just about every regard, and with even just a bit of training the can surpass a lot of the cast within a crossover. They also avoid the conflict generated by the transformations that occur with Infernals and Abyssals.

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From my understanding of Exalted Solars are supposed to embody perfection. They're supposed to be the best, whether the best artists, the best generals, the best builders, etc. they're supposed to be the best example of humanity. Which makes them sound like Mary Sues. From what I understand all exalted are supposed to be super humans but Solars make it their central theme.

 

[tehelgee]

From my understanding of Exalted Solars are supposed to embody perfection. They're supposed to be the best, whether the best artists, the best generals, the best builders, etc. they're supposed to be the best example of humanity. Which makes them sound like Mary Sues. From what I understand all exalted are supposed to be super humans but Solars make it their central theme.

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The 'regular' Exalts are all Mary Sues, without major drawbacks(with the exception of the Great Curse). No mortal can ever hope to compare to even a Dragonblood that uses something even as basic as an Excellency, much less a Solar using actual Charms.

 

[Smuthunter]

From my understanding of Exalted Solars are supposed to embody perfection. They're supposed to be the best, whether the best artists, the best generals, the best builders, etc. they're supposed to be the best example of humanity. Which makes them sound like Mary Sues. From what I understand all exalted are supposed to be super humans but Solars make it their central theme.

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The Solars are superhuman in the same sense that the action heroes from any given wuxia film are superhuman. Having awesome sword skills doesn't prevent you from being a really wretched person, so calling them mary sues is highly inaccurate unless you're just trying to say something generically insulting about a character you don't like.

 

[Green Sun Over Paradise]

Yeah, there is a reason I don'y write Solars, too boring really. They don't get any interesting transhuman charms like the Alchemicals and Infernals get, or the issues with the Celestial Burocracy that he Sidereals have. Heck, even the Abyssals get a better in terms of story tellings; they have charms that summon and bind the dead, orbeckon a small platoon of hungry ghosts as a war charm.

The Solars on other hand... Well, I just don't like the way they work. Super human skill, sure! But they lack an in built drama that the Infernals or Abyssals have, the worry about using their cursed powers for good, or dealing with the consquences of teen age Infernal killing her maids when they try and wash her sheets after she had her monthlys in her sleep, when she has Kimberian poison running through her veins, or the way Abyssals are very good at killing, but not much else.

Solars are superhuman, but that also takes away from their inheriant drama, which is a weak point for the as a splat.

 

[Biigoh]

Clearly, Solars need Raksha script writers. ;3

 

[Drak4806]

The 'regular' Exalts are all Mary Sues, without major drawbacks(with the exception of the Great Curse). No mortal can ever hope to compare to even a Dragonblood that uses something even as basic as an Excellency, much less a Solar using actual Charms.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't go as far as to call all Exalts Mary Sues. They're beyond regular humans sure, but that doesn't make them Sues.

 

[Smuthunter]

Yeah, there is a reason I don'y write Solars, too boring really. They don't get any interesting transhuman charms like the Alchemicals and Infernals get, or the issues with the Celestial Burocracy that he Sidereals have. Heck, even the Abyssals get a better in terms of story tellings; they have charms that summon and bind the dead, orbeckon a small platoon of hungry ghosts as a war charm.

The Solars on other hand... Well, I just don't like the way they work. Super human skill, sure! But they lack an in built drama that the Infernals or Abyssals have, the worry about using their cursed powers for good, or dealing with the consquences of teen age Infernal killing her maids when they try and wash her sheets after she had her monthlys in her sleep, when she has Kimberian poison running through her veins, or the way Abyssals are very good at killing, but not much else.

Solars are superhuman, but that also takes away from their inheriant drama, which is a weak point for the as a splat.

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This is an exceptionally bad argument. Good characters come with their own drama from their own lives and actions, they don't need an extra load that comes from their power set. And vanilla un-houseruled Solars have the Great Curse afflicting them harder than anybody, which will force them to make their own drama.

 

[Drak4806]

The Solars are superhuman in the same sense that the action heroes from any given wuxia film are superhuman. Having awesome sword skills doesn't prevent you from being a really wretched person, so calling them mary sues is highly inaccurate unless you're just trying to say something generically insulting about a character you don't like.

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I don't hate Solars its just that they're abilities remind me of what Sues are supposed to be like, kind of. The real problem is that in a lot of fanfic crosses where the MC becomes a Solar they eventually just become a Mary Sue instead by using Solar abilities. Part of the problem is the characters getting a bunch of high level charms after a really short amount of time.

Mary Sues are more than just being amazing at things.


And for some reason I'm thinking of an idea where someone rewrites Chunin Exam Day where Naruto become a Solar who falls victim to the Great Curse.

 

[tehelgee]

I don't hate Solars its just that they're abilities remind me of what Sues are supposed to be like, kind of. The real problem is that in a lot of fanfic crosses where the MC becomes a Solar they eventually just become a Mary Sue instead by using Solar abilities. Part of the problem is the characters getting a bunch of high level charms after a really short amount of time.

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Solars, in 3e, get 15 charms just by Exalting. With a Supernal, that means they can buy up high Essence charms in one ability, right from the start. And, they can learn individual Charms just in a matter of days. This is meant to reflect their rapid growth and high potential.

But just because they buy a Charm doesn't mean its a high level charm, as you put it. Many of the low level Charms have massive effects simply because they're adding new capabilities that didn't exist prior.

 

[Drak4806]

Solars, in 3e, get 15 charms just by Exalting. With a Supernal, that means they can buy up high Essence charms in one ability, right from the start. And, they can learn individual Charms just in a matter of days. This is meant to reflect their rapid growth and high potential.

But just because they buy a Charm doesn't mean its a high level charm, as you put it. Many of the low level Charms have massive effects simply because they're adding new capabilities that didn't exist prior.

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I've seen fics where the character was getting new charms at a rate of 10 a week.

 

[Smuthunter]

I don't hate Solars its just that they're abilities remind me of what Sues are supposed to be like, kind of.

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Then you haven't read many fanfics with sues in them. The problem with a mary sue isn't that they have awesome powers. Superman still has cool stories written about him 70-80 years after he first leapt a tall building in a single bound, and One Punch Man is a pretty damn cool comic about a guy who only needs one punch to defeat any enemy. The real problem with mary sues is that they are fundamentally boring characters who are treated by both the plot and the other characters as flawless individuals who can do no wrong, even -- perhaps especially -- when their behavior is quite blackly villainous.

CED Naruto is a perfect example of that sort of treatment. The only people who don't think he's the coolest thing ever are (A) his enemies, (B) people who disagree with or look down on him at all, or (C) girls who inevitably change their minds and join his harem. This is in spite of him eventually getting around to doing things like killing off Kakashi and Sasuke just so he can tear out their eyes and gain Sharingan powers for the duration of a loop. You're right that he was behaving exactly like a First Age Solar in the grip of the Great Curse, but that might have actually been a cool thing if he had been treated like a villain who has to be put down because he's gone mad with power.

If a Solar receives this treatment that's the fault of the author, not the power set. An incompetent author can turn any character and any kind of Exalt into a mary sue. Infernals and Sidereals are no more immune to this than anyone else.

 

[Drak4806]

Then you haven't read many fanfics with sues in them. The problem with a mary sue isn't that they have awesome powers. Superman still has cool stories written about him 70-80 years after he first leapt a tall building in a single bound, and One Punch Man is a pretty damn cool comic about a guy who only needs one punch to defeat any enemy. The real problem with mary sues is that they are fundamentally boring characters who are treated by both the plot and the other characters as flawless individuals who can do no wrong, even -- perhaps especially -- when their behavior is quite blackly villainous.

CED Naruto is a perfect example of that sort of treatment. The only people who don't think he's the coolest thing ever are (A) his enemies, (B) people who disagree with or look down on him at all, or (C) girls who inevitably change their minds and join his harem. This is in spite of him eventually getting around to doing things like killing off Kakashi and Sasuke just so he can tear out their eyes and gain Sharingan powers for the duration of a loop. You're right that he was behaving exactly like a First Age Solar in the grip of the Great Curse, but that might have actually been a cool thing if he had been treated like a villain who has to be put down because he's gone mad with power.

If a Solar receives this treatment that's the fault of the author, not the power set. An incompetent author can turn any character and any kind of Exalt into a mary sue. Infernals and Sidereals are no more immune to this than anyone else.

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I'm not saying Solars are Sues. It's just that sometimes their abilities and what they're supposed to represent sometimes vaguely remind be of what Sues are supposed to be like. Its just when I usually read a crossover fanfic where the MC becomes a Solar most of the time the character starts to act like a Sue.

 

[Smuthunter]

I'm not saying Solars are Sues. It's just that sometimes their abilities and what they're supposed to represent sometimes vaguely remind be of what Sues are supposed to be like. Its just when I usually read a crossover fanfic where the MC becomes a Solar most of the time the character starts to act like a Sue.

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Then stop reading shitty crossovers and find some good Exalted fanfics. Cast in Gold is pretty good from what I remember.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Also, the thing with using Sidereals is this.... outside of Creation, Sidereal charmset gets hit with massive nerfs due to the environment and people/creatures in it being outside of fate.

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Couldn't you just rule that the local verse has its own Fate and the Exaltation just realigns with it or something?

 

[horngeek]

Dragon-Blooded are difficult to crossover because their Exaltation is… well, in the blood. Someone can only Exalt as a Terrestrial Exalted if an ancestor of theirs was a Terrestrial Exalted.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Dragon-Blooded are difficult to crossover because their Exaltation is… well, in the blood. Someone can only Exalt as a Terrestrial Exalted if an ancestor of theirs was a Terrestrial Exalted.

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Technically, they could be exalted directly by one of the Elemental Dragons themselves, becoming the absolute progenitor of a terrestrial line.
Maybe each of the dragons made some extra Terrestrial exaltations in case the terrestrial host was completely exterminated and needed to be rebooted, and then some catastrophe sent the spares into another world entirely...or one of the dragons deliberately sent them there.

 

[Biigoh]

Couldn't you just rule that the local verse has its own Fate and the Exaltation just realigns with it or something?

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Nope... that's something specifically noted in Sidereal charmsets. They're designed to work in Loom of Fate regions very well... not so well or not at all outside those regions.

Dragon-Blooded are difficult to crossover because their Exaltation is… well, in the blood. Someone can only Exalt as a Terrestrial Exalted if an ancestor of theirs was a Terrestrial Exalted.

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Technically, they could be exalted directly by one of the Elemental Dragons themselves, becoming the absolute progenitor of a terrestrial line.
Maybe each of the dragons made some extra Terrestrial exaltations in case the terrestrial host was completely exterminated and needed to be rebooted, and then some catastrophe sent the spares into another world entirely...or one of the dragons deliberately sent them there.

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Or you could do what the Bii did in Goblin Queen.... they're there because there was a First Age Wyld Expedition long ago.... and their bloodline got spread across the multiverse or something

 

[horngeek]

I said difficult, not impossible.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

Nope... that's something specifically noted in Sidereal charmsets. They're designed to work in Loom of Fate regions very well... not so well or not at all outside those regions.



Or you could do what the Bii did in Goblin Queen.... they're there because there was a First Age Wyld Expedition long ago.... and their bloodline got spread across the multiverse or something

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But then you can't have them have (and spread) the best breeding possible!