My Thoughts on the Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel

[Idkusername]

So I've recently started watching a Fate Stay Night playthrough after putting of the VN for a while, since I couldn't play the version my friend had on my Mac laptop. I got into fate by way of the UBW anime, then watched F/Zero, then Apocrypha, and then proceeded to read a lot of fanfics for the last few years.

I've also been lurking around the Beast's Lair message boards for a month or so now, and I'm reading the discussion messages for GB's works and the one for 'From Fake Dreams'. While I agree on all of the criticisms for GB's work, and some of those for ThirdFang, I still feel as if the community their and sometimes Fate fans in general hold canon in an exceedingly high regard. While I do not know ho often (if at all) Nasu contradicts himself or trolls the audience, I am choosing to believing this as rumour unless stated otherwise.

Still, I have noticed a lot of small problems with the series, which definitely undermine the whole elitist 'canon is king' thing a lot of Fate fans have going on. There are a lot of oversights and retcons in the story, and while treating its world-building with more importance than other fandoms is fine, the unnecessarily antagonistic stance of the fandom is something that rubs me the wrong way.

This is why while I might not call Nasu a troll, I still do not put more stock in his words than any other author. Nasu has stated that Archer is on the lower end of the power spectrum in the Nasuverse, and while that's true as a whole, people take that to mean Archer can mostly only play defensively and his versatility only halls against select opponents like Gilgamesh. With a bit of thought that's definitely not true, and part of that is listed below. (It's too complicated a topic to explore right now, so this while have to suffice)

Shirou says he can only beat Gilgamesh within his Reality Marble, which is absolute bullshit. If Gil can trump 99.9% of Servants without Ea, so can Shirou. His RM does what the Gate of Babylon does, only with a little less power but a higher firing range and unlimited ammunition. We also don't know how using or breaking Phantasms changes inside his Reality Marble, other than Tracing Excalibur Image outside of the Moon is a death sentence, so it's a reasonable belief that with a bit of planing, Archer can trump the other Servants. It's only NPs that specifically counter RMs or stuff like Counter Gaurdian Assassin EMIYA's Origin Bullets that he has to fear.

Anyways, the aim of this is to note my general thoughts on fate and see how well the VN holds up to the standards it's fans seem to use.


Prologue (playthrough parts 1-5)

Inconsistencies in F/SN
⁃ Archer kills Berserker 6 times despite not using UBW or NLBW. It's possible that he used caliburn, but I haven't reached that point to see if he had the magical energy required
⁃ Rin messes up the summoning very badly despite being a genius, she only does it one hour early, still messes up her summoning circle,and Archer's memory, and he appears in another room.
⁃ How the hell did he fix up her room so good? (Budget constraints)
⁃ Kirei to Rin. Rin's parents should have thought that the next grail war would be 60 years later, she would have comfortably been an adult by then, and Korea could likely have died. Even if Kirei is playing Rin for a fool, she should know this.

⁃ Also, why the hell did she not get Gil's catalyst? Even if she still would've summoned Archer (questionable since the ritual would/should have used the specified catalyst)
⁃ Magi can sense other magi. Rin says that 'he' (Shinji) is not a Master because of insufficient magical energy. This implies that Sakura has no magical energy at all, and Sakura was given to the Matous precisely so she could learn mage craft.
⁃ Another implication is that the Crest Worms are eating up all of her magical energy all the time, which is fatal (I think, it's not said in game yet, but I'm pretty sure I read it on Beast's Lair somewhere)
⁃ Since Shirou doesn't have any magical energy (inactive atrophied circuits) unless he cannibalises his nerves, that would either mean that Saber is receiving pitiful amounts of mana and has truly ridiculous Independent Action skill, unless Shirou is cannibalising his nerves constantly, and is doing so for more than one to make sure she survives after using mana to fight.
⁃ Kuzuki recalling papers because of a misspelling? Implausible but possible. Something that will certainly get him in trouble if he does it often. Even doing it once is bad. But the real kicker is that this mad lad cancelled a midterm exam because of MISPELLING. What the hell? That's the kind of shit that will get you fired quickly.
⁃ Someone on BL said that Archer's swords break with each thrust of Lnacer's spear, but what's actually happening is that the the swords fly from his grip. He 'looses' the swords but they don't break.
⁃ It's said that Archer looses a sword for each of Lancer's 100 thrusts, yet, he says he's only disarmed Archer 27 times.
⁃ How the hell do Rin and Archer not her the sounds of battle from within Shirou's house? Lancer ans Saber really go at it, and they should be able to hear it from the street, especially if Shirou can hear Lancer and Archer's battle from the Kyoudou club. Hell, Lancer even screams about his Gay Bulge.
⁃ Minor nitpick, but Rin says she's been storing up for the wind spell for seventeen years. This is most likely an exaggeration, so you can safely ignore this.
⁃ As someone pointed out in the comments, the hundred year time span for the last Heroic Spirit ascension doesn't really work, because we see an astronaut Servant by the name of Armstrong in the Moon Cell Wars and Last Encore.


General criticisms/thoughts

⁃ there's a lot of repetition in the Visual Novel, and I'm sure that's going to get annoying fast. It's obviously meant to make sure that beginners understand the basics of the system, but even judging it by that standard is annoying.
⁃ I'm not sure if it's a problem with the translation, but the writing can come of as stilted or awkward. Even when I was reading the SAO books a few years, the writing was weirding and archaic but it didn't come off as awkward. However, it could just be that I'm unused to the format.
⁃ The let's player says that the action scene is written very well for a VN, but I can't really comment on that since this is my first experience with the medium.
⁃ It still has the anime cliches that are prevalent in dome store anime today, something that wasn't as present in the UBW anime, which I very much appreciated. It's still the beginning of the story, though, and it's most likely toned down severely as we go along.
⁃ So, I read that Saber is referred to as a girl so many times because the romance was a major focus in this route, and to make the twist of her identity really hit home. Nasu was said to have been a little sexist, but it's something he's still working on. However, lines like 'Kuzuki should not have made a girl carry the a stack of papers' )paraphrasing here) really do not help his case.


P.S. I need help with making an account on BL. The registration page asks you for the site's name, and I've tried all the combination of Beast's Lair and the site's url that I know, and I keep saying it's the wrong answer. I can't even contact the modis because doing that also require that I answer the same security question! Halp.

 

[Akuma-Heika]

⁃ Kirei to Rin. Rin's parents should have thought that the next grail war would be 60 years later, she would have comfortably been an adult by then, and Korea could likely have died. Even if Kirei is playing Rin for a fool, she should know this.

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Haven't played in years, so memory is really fuzzy, and I am not sure what your critique specifically is, but until she was an adult, she would need a guardian. As a magi, having a mentor would be much better than needing to partially stumble their way through (Crest likely would help, but unless it comes with a VI, only so much)

⁃ Also, why the hell did she not get Gil's catalyst? Even if she still would've summoned Archer (questionable since the ritual would/should have used the specified catalyst)

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Gil likely removed it. If she used it, she would have gotten a Gilgasmesh, and I doubt Gil wanted to fight another Gil (the Servants are vessels for a copy of their HS self in the Throne, and it would be possible for it to be an entirely different Gil as well [infinite universes, one Gilgamesh might have joined with the gods, creating very different life circumstances).

Magi can sense other magi. Rin says that 'he' (Shinji) is not a Master because of insufficient magical energy. This implies that Sakura has no magical energy at all, and Sakura was given to the Matous precisely so she could learn mage craft.

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DId Shirou realize Rin was a magi? He might not have notices due to lack of education, and due to Rin's dad's 'rule' regarding Sakura, wouldn't have given her a way (the fact she seems to have a Guilt/Martyr Complex of sorts revolving Sakura likely doesn't help with that).

⁃ Another implication is that the Crest Worms are eating up all of her magical energy all the time, which is fatal (I think, it's not said in game yet, but I'm pretty sure I read it on Beast's Lair somewhere)

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If they only consume the excess not needed for cellular functions, then their would be nothing to detect, and the person would live.

Saber is receiving pitiful amounts of mana and has truly ridiculous Independent Action skill,

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She had a Magic Core, which grants immensely greater Od production. If is likely, effectively, a faux-Independent Skill at rank B.

Someone on BL said that Archer's swords break with each thrust of Lnacer's spear, but what's actually happening is that the the swords fly from his grip. He 'looses' the swords but they don't break.

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Not sure how the word of a poster on BL counts as a inconsistency written ingame

⁃ Minor nitpick, but Rin says she's been storing up for the wind spell for seventeen years. This is most likely an exaggeration, so you can safely ignore this.

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From what we have seen, Rin might have been referring to her family (possibly meant to be a gift to her, although Tokiomi got a terminal case of death), although it could have been a typo, or a mistranslation.

⁃ As someone pointed out in the comments, the hundred year time span for the last Heroic Spirit ascension doesn't really work, because we see an astronaut Servant by the name of Armstrong in the Moon Cell Wars and Last Encore.

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Extra series was made a decade after FSN IIRC. Less of a inconsistency, more of a change made retroactively.

⁃ there's a lot of repetition in the Visual Novel, and I'm sure that's going to get annoying fast. It's obviously meant to make sure that beginners understand the basics of the system, but even judging it by that standard is annoying.

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Repetition is an inherent problem in games (specifically RPGs) in general, and exist in VNs as well. More of a weakness in medium.

⁃ I'm not sure if it's a problem with the translation, but the writing can come of as stilted or awkward. Even when I was reading the SAO books a few years, the writing was weirding and archaic but it didn't come off as awkward. However, it could just be that I'm unused to the format.

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You are forgetting the massive time difference between publications. If you want to understand, to a spiritual level, look up old (1990s) English dubbed Hentai. I will give this warning though, a part of you might die listening to sex scenes....

⁃ It still has the anime cliches that are prevalent in dome store anime today, something that wasn't as present in the UBW anime, which I very much appreciated. It's still the beginning of the story, though, and it's most likely toned down severely as we go along.

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Same as above

However, lines like 'Kuzuki should not have made a girl carry the a stack of papers' )paraphrasing here) really do not help his case.

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Same.

Excellent points. I am half asleep, and as I said earlier, it has been at least a decade since I played FSN (longer since I fully completed it), so my answers could definitely be wrong. A lot of issues you brought up are more due to you not including the time the game was made (and translated to English)

 

[Heaven Canceler]

She had a Magic Core, which grants immensely greater Od production. If is likely, effectively, a faux-Independent Skill at rank B.

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The magic core only gets activated during the whole sexy times with Rin if I remember right?

That said, I think Independent Action is less about being able to stick around with very little magic juice and more about being around without a Master to work as an anchor in this world. I remember reading that even a Servant with a lot of magic juice will vanish within a few minutes if the Master dies.

 

[Akuma-Heika]

The magic core only gets activated during the whole sexy times with Rin if I remember right?

That said, I think Independent Action is less about being able to stick around with very little magic juice and more about being around without a Master to work as an anchor in this world. I remember reading that even a Servant with a lot of magic juice will vanish within a few minutes if the Master dies.

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Good point, and it doesn't require sexy times (otherwise Dragons wouldn't have been as terrifying in Nasuverse ). I believe the explanation given in series, is that Magic Circuits work like an engine: you put in enough fuel to run it, and get enough energy to move a car (or less if it is a smaller engine). A Magic Core is like a factory. You put in enough fuel to run it, and it exerts enough energy to move many cars. Its a poor analogy, so I prefer just comparing the Magic Core to a power plant.

Edit: if it did activate during the sexy times, it was likely from taking the Od/Prana Shirou and RIn were providing, and then amplifying the amount of energy obtained, aka, they gave her 10 units of Od, and she then had 10,000 units of Od

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Good point, and it doesn't require sexy times (otherwise Dragons wouldn't have been as terrifying in Nasuverse ).

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Hey, maybe dragons are total nymphomaniacs who have sex every chance they can get^^

 

[Nekraa]

Most of this stuff seems, I don't know. Minor? Most of it is also not "inconsistent".

Tried to answer in a paragraph below, but it was getting difficult to connect the answers with the questions/lines so here's a spaghetti post :<

Inconsistencies in F/SN
⁃ Archer kills Berserker 6 times despite not using UBW or NLBW. It's possible that he used caliburn, but I haven't reached that point to see if he had the magical energy required

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Archer is a servant that is good at punching above his weight class, UBW is quite useful that way.

⁃ Rin messes up the summoning very badly despite being a genius, she only does it one hour early, still messes up her summoning circle,and Archer's memory, and he appears in another room.

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Rin making mistakes isn't an "inconsistency", it's even foreshadowed what with her getting to school one hour early too

⁃ How the hell did he fix up her room so good? (Budget constraints)

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Magic

⁃ Kirei to Rin. Rin's parents should have thought that the next grail war would be 60 years later, she would have comfortably been an adult by then, and Korea could likely have died. Even if Kirei is playing Rin for a fool, she should know this.

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Hey, a five or seven year old kid needs a guardian. Kirei was Tokiomi's student so it makes perfect sense for him to care for his magic teacher's child until she's of age. The grail war being early when it shouldn't doesn't matter here.

⁃ Also, why the hell did she not get Gil's catalyst? Even if she still would've summoned Archer (questionable since the ritual would/should have used the specified catalyst)

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Because she didn't know about it? Her dad tragically died before he could teach her more and tell her stuff.

⁃ Magi can sense other magi. Rin says that 'he' (Shinji) is not a Master because of insufficient magical energy. This implies that Sakura has no magical energy at all, and Sakura was given to the Matous precisely so she could learn mage craft.
⁃ Another implication is that the Crest Worms are eating up all of her magical energy all the time, which is fatal (I think, it's not said in game yet, but I'm pretty sure I read it on Beast's Lair somewhere)

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If they eat too much, yeah. As seen with Kariya in Zero. As for why Rin doesn't believe Sakura to be a master, well. I don't remember, but could be that Rin doesn't not want to fight her sister (and also, Sakura isn't a very fight-y person).

⁃ Since Shirou doesn't have any magical energy (inactive atrophied circuits) unless he cannibalises his nerves, that would either mean that Saber is receiving pitiful amounts of mana and has truly ridiculous Independent Action skill, unless Shirou is cannibalising his nerves constantly, and is doing so for more than one to make sure she survives after using mana to fight.

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Not atrophied! No cannibalization either! :<

She has her dragon core, and regains magical energy by eating, and saves some by sleeping. But yes, Saber has to work with what she "started" with from the summoning pretty much.

⁃ Kuzuki recalling papers because of a misspelling? Implausible but possible. Something that will certainly get him in trouble if he does it often. Even doing it once is bad. But the real kicker is that this mad lad cancelled a midterm exam because of MISPELLING. What the hell? That's the kind of shit that will get you fired quickly.

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I don't remember this, but it's not "inconsistent"?

⁃ Someone on BL said that Archer's swords break with each thrust of Lnacer's spear, but what's actually happening is that the the swords fly from his grip. He 'looses' the swords but they don't break.

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Yeah, not like someone could be wrong on the internet

⁃ It's said that Archer looses a sword for each of Lancer's 100 thrusts, yet, he says he's only disarmed Archer 27 times.

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So he's done ~2700 thrusts then?

⁃ How the hell do Rin and Archer not her the sounds of battle from within Shirou's house? Lancer ans Saber really go at it, and they should be able to hear it from the street, especially if Shirou can hear Lancer and Archer's battle from the Kyoudou club. Hell, Lancer even screams about his Gay Bulge.

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*shrugs* They didn't? Also, Gae Bolg. Not "Gay Bulge". If you're complaining about a story/game, talking shit about it and myths is losing you points.

⁃ Minor nitpick, but Rin says she's been storing up for the wind spell for seventeen years. This is most likely an exaggeration, so you can safely ignore this.

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Why is that? Tohsaka is a family that stores magical energy in gemstones, so it makes perfect sense. The seventeen years might be a mistake, or it being her that did it rather than it being something she's inherited and continued to work on. But other wise it makes sense.

⁃ As someone pointed out in the comments, the hundred year time span for the last Heroic Spirit ascension doesn't really work, because we see an astronaut Servant by the name of Armstrong in the Moon Cell Wars and Last Encore.

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And it never was a hard and strict rule either? Just that it's very difficult to become a heroic spirit in modern times. Also, copyrights and trademarks and writing about real people that only recently died or who are still alive is a... difficult proposition.



As for translation and writing complaints, Fate/Stay Night only has a fan translation, which is wrong in some places. As for cliches... the VN came out in 2004. While it currently is 2020. So yeah.

 

[JBukharin]

I've seen some people replying to this, but I just decided to jump in to point out some of my own doubts over some of the critic.

Shirou says he can only beat Gilgamesh within his Reality Marble, which is absolute bullshit. If Gil can trump 99.9% of Servants without Ea, so can Shirou. His RM does what the Gate of Babylon does, only with a little less power but a higher firing range and unlimited ammunition.

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If I remember correctly, Shirou's advantage was that he had a masterful hold over the copied weapons within his RM. While Gilgamesh has a massive treasury, he never bothered training much with those and thus, while GoB is stronger than UBW, Gil can't use it at full efficiency.

We also don't know how using or breaking Phantasms changes inside his Reality Marble, other than Tracing Excalibur Image outside of the Moon is a death sentence.

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Tracing NPs can be done, but the copy would be far weaker and the process too draining for the User depending on the power and history of the weapon being Traced.

So it's a reasonable belief that with a bit of planing, Archer can trump the other Servants. It's only NPs that specifically counter RMs or stuff like Counter Gaurdian Assassin EMIYA's Origin Bullets that he has to fear.

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UBW is not a toy that Archer can use so frequently without facing any repercussion. UBW, as a RM, was born from the distortion that characterized his past life and thus it suffers more against Gaia's will compared to Iskandar's RM.

⁃ Rin messes up the summoning very badly despite being a genius, she only does it one hour early, still messes up her summoning circle,and Archer's memory, and he appears in another room.

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While Rin is a smart Magus with a good grasp over her family's specialization, it is also important to point out the fact that she was instructed about the steps to take in the summoning by Kirei and... the priest is a known sadistic Troll. P.S. There's a high chance Archer's amnesia was faked to avoid telling Rin more about his past... for good reasons.

⁃ How the hell did he fix up her room so good? (Budget constraints)

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I think this is where the prime example of Mama Emiya came from. Heh~.

⁃ Kirei to Rin. Rin's parents should have thought that the next grail war would be 60 years later, she would have comfortably been an adult by then, and Korea could likely have died. Even if Kirei is playing Rin for a fool, she should know this.

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Considering the mortality of the Third Holy Grail War, I wouldn't exclude that Tokiomi had expected things to go downhill one way or another. So it wouldn't be impossible to consider that he had planned to give the custody of his child to Risei Kotomine... but since he died before he could assume the role, the duty went to his son, Kirei.

⁃ Also, why the hell did she not get Gil's catalyst? Even if she still would've summoned Archer (questionable since the ritual would/should have used the specified catalyst)

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She didn't actually know about her father's Servant. In fact she doesn't recognize him when he first appeared to both her and Shirou.

⁃ Magi can sense other magi. Rin says that 'he' (Shinji) is not a Master because of insufficient magical energy. This implies that Sakura has no magical energy at all, and Sakura was given to the Matous precisely so she could learn mage craft.

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This is actually explained in the Heaven's Feel route as Rin said that she had thought that it had been Zouken to summon Rider before giving her to Shinji.

⁃ Another implication is that the Crest Worms are eating up all of her magical energy all the time, which is fatal (I think, it's not said in game yet, but I'm pretty sure I read it on Beast's Lair somewhere)

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Crest Worms' hunger is determined by their state of the Circuits. The more energy the Circuits are handling, the more they will drain into their hosts' vitality.

⁃ Since Shirou doesn't have any magical energy (inactive atrophied circuits) unless he cannibalises his nerves, that would either mean that Saber is receiving pitiful amounts of mana and has truly ridiculous Independent Action skill, unless Shirou is cannibalising his nerves constantly, and is doing so for more than one to make sure she survives after using mana to fight.

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The Circuits created by the cannibalization of nerves are not temporary. While of poor quality, they can still do a job similar to Kariya's pitiful body (if not more considering that Saber drains less than Berserkalot) if not more since Artoria eats food and gain energy from it. The Independed Action (which is not part of her Class) might be referring to her capacity to store more energy in her body or it is perhaps connected to the unique contract she has with the Grail.

⁃ Kuzuki recalling papers because of a misspelling? Implausible but possible. Something that will certainly get him in trouble if he does it often. Even doing it once is bad. But the real kicker is that this mad lad cancelled a midterm exam because of MISPELLING. What the hell? That's the kind of shit that will get you fired quickly.

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Probably it has to do with some favors that he had to burn for the sake of that excuse. Either that or he bribed the headmaster/headmistress of Homurahara Academy.

⁃ How the hell do Rin and Archer not her the sounds of battle from within Shirou's house? Lancer ans Saber really go at it, and they should be able to hear it from the street, especially if Shirou can hear Lancer and Archer's battle from the Kyoudou club. Hell, Lancer even screams about his Gay Bulge.

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The Emiya Household is fairly big as a Japanese home and since the fight happened by the courtyard which is set distant to the main entrance of the house, I wouldn't find it unreasonable to believe that the noise just didn't reach that far.

⁃ Minor nitpick, but Rin says she's been storing up for the wind spell for seventeen years. This is most likely an exaggeration, so you can safely ignore this.

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It's highly-possible that it is a mistake in the translation. There are other instances where Rin uses jewels that contain powerful spells that have been channelling within the gems for much longer than her lifespan. Since the translators weren't aware of Fate/Zero at the time, I wouldn't doubt that they merely mistook the meaning of some words.

⁃ As someone pointed out in the comments, the hundred year time span for the last Heroic Spirit ascension doesn't really work, because we see an astronaut Servant by the name of Armstrong in the Moon Cell Wars and Last Encore.

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The Grail is a strange thing which rules aren't truly clear. In FSN and FZ, it was thought that only 'Good Heroes' could have been summoned from it and yet characters like Gilles, Medea and Berserkalot happened because of issues within the Grail (Aka 'Shadow Boi plotting word-destruction'). The EXTRA Grail also uses a completely different system that can be hacked and manipulated by the competitors.

⁃ there's a lot of repetition in the Visual Novel, and I'm sure that's going to get annoying fast. It's obviously meant to make sure that beginners understand the basics of the system, but even judging it by that standard is annoying.

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Considering the limitations imposed by the format, I wouldn't ignore the fact that it was an attempt to best introduce with what can be considering a nerve-wracking world in terms of lore and history. Recent introductions to the fandom can use FGO and other series within the Nasuverse to get some grasp over the plot, but at the time the VN was released there was no such thing as that.

⁃ I'm not sure if it's a problem with the translation, but the writing can come of as stilted or awkward. Even when I was reading the SAO books a few years, the writing was weirding and archaic but it didn't come off as awkward. However, it could just be that I'm unused to the format.

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Since Shirou is the main perspective and thinking narrator, I could see as an issue created by two element: 1) The writers had to put some 'shyness' and descriptive limitation in what was meant to be the mind of a teenage student; 2) Some of the effort possibly mistranslated in English;

⁃ The let's player says that the action scene is written very well for a VN, but I can't really comment on that since this is my first experience with the medium.

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There are some bad VNs.

⁃ It still has the anime cliches that are prevalent in dome store anime today, something that wasn't as present in the UBW anime, which I very much appreciated. It's still the beginning of the story, though, and it's most likely toned down severely as we go along.

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It was born to be an Eroge with anime characteristics and some dark aspects. I wouldn't put behind the producers of UBW that they had decided to tone it down to make it more dramatic and improve the shock element of some scenes.

⁃ So, I read that Saber is referred to as a girl so many times because the romance was a major focus in this route, and to make the twist of her identity really hit home. Nasu was said to have been a little sexist, but it's something he's still working on. However, lines like 'Kuzuki should not have made a girl carry the a stack of papers' )paraphrasing here) really do not help his case.

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I wouldn't say that Nasu is sexist to the degree you are making him out to be. The example you have brought up was most surely connected with Shirou being Shirou (aka 'There is a burden? Now it is mine because of Survivor's guilt!'). Also, once again, it was meant to be just an eroge.