Naruto Manga Discussions~

[Biigoh]

So, was catching up with the Naruto manga...

And I have this to say... goddamnit, Tobirama! It's entirely your fault that everything went the way they did.

 

[Raeck]

Quite frankly I've decided not to read the manga because as far as i can tell a lot of the Fan fiction i've read is better then cannon.

 

[nick012000]

Quite frankly I've decided not to read the manga because as far as i can tell a lot of the Fan fiction i've read is better then cannon.

Click to shrink...

You're kidding, right? The Manga's been non-stop awesomeness ever since the Ninja War Arc started.

 

[Raeck]

You're kidding, right? The Manga's been non-stop awesomeness ever since the Ninja War Arc started.

Click to shrink...

Yeah,but its right around then he starts to disregard stuff he's written before isn't it?

 

[nick012000]

Yeah,but its right around then he starts to disregard stuff he's written before isn't it?

Click to shrink...

Not really. It's more like he's finally started picking up on all the foreshadowing he'd been doing.

 

[Raeck]

Not really. It's more like he's finally started picking up on all the foreshadowing he'd been doing.

Click to shrink...

Like how Orochimaru was able to summon all the hokages,even though its been established that you cant summon them,and that Tobirama had a way to beat Edo Tensei,yet he did not use it the first time!?

Then there's the matter of Sasuke suddenly being a good guy even though Kishimoto had done everything to keep him a villain.

 

[Biigoh]

I still liked the First's flashback with Madara.

 

[Pipeman]

I still liked the First's flashback with Madara.

Click to shrink...

That's pretty much the only thing I liked about the Manga in the last 3 years. (Which is not to say that there was anything I liked 3 years ago. That was merely when i started reading it again out of pure boredom after dropping it for a while.)
Which actually kind of pisses me off.
I was just dropping it when he introduced the hilarity that is Hashirama and Madara interaction.
Luckily he is a bad enough writer that I'm willing to drop again already.

 

[Biigoh]

Tell me about it at least it's not as bad as the anime. Kishimoto can do background scenery well.

 

[nick012000]

Like how Orochimaru was able to summon all the hokages,even though its been established that you cant summon them,and that Tobirama had a way to beat Edo Tensei,yet he did not use it the first time!?

Click to shrink...

They couldn't be summoned because they were sealed away. Once the sealing was released, they could be summoned through Edo Tensei once more; additionally, the fact that all the summon animals were summoned from elsewhere in the world implied that the Shinigami was, as well, so the fact that it was, in fact, summoned from somewhere in the world should be no surprise. As for the Second being able to break the Edo Tensei, I'll point out that the first time around, Orochimaru immediately shoved a kunai with a seal that suppressed his intelligence inside his head.

Then there's the matter of Sasuke suddenly being a good guy even though Kishimoto had done everything to keep him a villain.

Click to shrink...

Again, foreshadowing. You've noticed how Sasuke was always persuaded to join the villains after one conversation? It turns out that there's a reason behind that: the Uchiha clan are very, very impressionable. It should be no surprise that Sasuke could be turned back to the side of the heroes once he had a conversation with someone charismatic enough to unite a bunch of warring clans to found the first Hidden Village. Similarly, it was shown that even following his heel/face turn, everyone but Naruto still majorly distrusted him.

 

[Pipeman]

There's a distinct difference between foreshadowing and having so many plotholes and storylines that don't go anywhere, that you can fall back on one of those whenever you're in the mood for a new asspull.

 

[Raeck]

They couldn't be summoned because they were sealed away. Once the sealing was released, they could be summoned through Edo Tensei once more; additionally, the fact that all the summon animals were summoned from elsewhere in the world implied that the Shinigami was, as well, so the fact that it was, in fact, summoned from somewhere in the world should be no surprise. As for the Second being able to break the Edo Tensei, I'll point out that the first time around, Orochimaru immediately shoved a kunai with a seal that suppressed his intelligence inside his head.

Again, foreshadowing. You've noticed how Sasuke was always persuaded to join the villains after one conversation? It turns out that there's a reason behind that: the Uchiha clan are very, very impressionable. It should be no surprise that Sasuke could be turned back to the side of the heroes once he had a conversation with someone charismatic enough to unite a bunch of warring clans to found the first Hidden Village. Similarly, it was shown that even following his heel/face turn, everyone but Naruto still majorly distrusted him.

Click to shrink...

First,they didnt get sealed away,their souls were eaten by the Shinigami,second; a clan of summons that might as well be familiars is very different then summoning the god of death,third;didnt they spend a minute or 2 talking to the Third and talking to themselves,a minute or 2 Tobirama could spend Breaking Edo Tensei's hold?

As for the Sasuke issue,thats another moment of Kishimoto being a dumbass,you see,by that point Kishimoto had 1 upped naruto to the point that Kishimoto would have to either 1. do another Timeskip to pull Sasuke to the same level 2. add another haxx trick to the sharingan or 3.make Sasuke a good guy so Naruto wouldn't have to pwn him

 

[nick012000]

First,they didnt get sealed away,their souls were eaten by the Shinigami,second; a clan of summons that might as well be familiars is very different then summoning the god of death,third;didnt they spend a minute or 2 talking to the Third and talking to themselves,a minute or 2 Tobirama could spend Breaking Edo Tensei's hold?
1. It's the same thing; it's called the "Dead Demon Consuming Seal" for a reason.
2. Not really; they were both creatures called by the same sort of technique; additionally, assuming that it was some sort of "god of death" rather than just some sort of (un)natural spirit is entirely an assumption on your part. There was no evidence for this in the manga. Indeed, given that the Mangeyenko Sharingan was shown to create similar spirits long before then, there's actually evidence against it.
3. I'll point out, again, that he prevented them from doing anything but talking until he implanted them with the kunai that turned them into puppets (and, the combination of having weak chunin-level bodies and having sapped their wills and thus yin chakra away explains why they were so weak on that showing as well). Additionally, breaking loose from the Edo Tensei is only possible when the original technique is released - this is evidenced by the fact that Madara had to wait for to Sasuke's brother to cast the anti-technique to release himself from its control.

As for the Sasuke issue,thats another moment of Kishimoto being a dumbass,you see,by that point Kishimoto had 1 upped naruto to the point that Kishimoto would have to either 1. do another Timeskip to pull Sasuke to the same level 2. add another haxx trick to the sharingan or 3.make Sasuke a good guy so Naruto wouldn't have to pwn him

Click to shrink...

Nah, I could see the current Sasuke holding his own against Naruto, if they fought. Having an invulnerable sheild technique, an unstoppable attack technique, and the ability to mind-control the Kyuubi would probably add up to Naruto losing. Moreover, the way the Sharingan accumulates "haxx tricks" has been explained by how it works recently; it feeds off of the negative emotions of the user, and Sasuke has a lot of negative emotions to go around.

Click to shrink...

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Naruto's pretty much shit tier at this point, and I'll just point out what really put it in the irredeemable department:

1. The Uchiha Reveal: Apparently, the Uchiha love so fucking much that the moment a loved one dies, all that loves turns to hatred and they go batshit insane 'out of love'. This is so fucking stupid I don't even know where to start; highlights are mostly how this invalidates any meaningful motivation of our main villians, who are Uchiha. It also makes the clan as a whole look like a bunch of emo whiners. And; it makes Tobirama right, because only a fucking retard would put a clan of people who go batshit insane when loved ones die in a job that entails risking their lives daily.

2. Sasuke's 'redemption': Ok, what the fuck? You had everything set up right Kishimoto, why did you piss it all away? No, seriously; Sasuke's gone on and on about 'vengance for my clan, kill all who have betrayed them', and now it boils down to saying "Yeah, it's cool guys; I forgive you and shit. Back to being a good guy for me!"

It's not even the fact that it happened; though it's still rather shitty, but the way it was handled. It was basically done by talking to some guys who basically said, "Yeah, you clan was made up of pricks; but some of them were ok!" I just...if you were going to go for this sorta thing; it should've been with a confrontation against Naruto, the hopeful idealist versus the bitter avenger; the whole conflict that had been set up between them for so fucking long. That's when you pull this sorta thing; bonus points if it's with his dying breath, a sort of revelation at the very end, that would've worked wonderfully.

3. Madara and Obito: Oh Jesus; Madara basically gives no fucks. At all; no matter what happens, all he does is shrug and say "Eh, whatever; I still win." I cannot think of a more apathetic villain who was meant to be taken seriously in all of the fiction I've read in my life. Seriously, how can I give a fuck about what happens if the dude making it happen doesn't?

And Obito, Obito started out so well; taking the shitty Uchiha Love problem and making it actually kinda work as a motivation. He was a dark reflection of Naruto; an idealist who was seemingly betrayed at the end and lost everything, and in that lost, giving up on the world and trying to make a new one. And ideal one; one that, while fake and illusory, was still better than this hollow world where he lost everything. It would've been the ultimate escapism in order to get back what he lost. Made even better that it was Kakashi who brought on this despair; by killing the one woman he loved for reasons unknown. It was beautiful...

...And then we got the story about what happened with Rin, and the fact that Obito knew what that story was and went; "The Rin that died wasn't my Rin." It just outright killed the motivation for his character right then and there; it was so fucking stupid how Obito reacted to the true story and his reasoning that it made him as bad a villain as Madara. Saying that the real world was 'fake' just made it harder to take him seriously as a villain; his motivation ruined because of that one statement.

 

[Raeck]

1.No,it really isnt
2.No,the wiki blatantly Says that its the Shinigami:

It invokes the power of a spectral entity known as the Shinigami (死神; English TV "Reaper"; Literally meaning "death god") that can only be seen when it grasps one's soul.

Click to shrink...

3.Prevented them...You do realize that the Shodaime would've been able to Kick Orochimaru around like a pinball long enough for Tobirama to Break the technique don't you?

Nah, I could see the current Sasuke holding his own against Naruto, if they fought. Having an invulnerable sheild technique, an unstoppable attack technique, and the ability to mind-control the Kyuubi would probably add up to Naruto losing. Moreover, the way the Sharingan accumulates "haxx tricks" has been explained by how it works recently; it feeds off of the negative emotions of the user, and Sasuke has a lot of negative emotions to go around.

Click to shrink...

Yes that would be all fine and dandy..If Naruto wasn't currently one of if not the fastest Person walking the planet,none of those are going to help you if you cant react fast enough and Susanoo is far from being the toughest thing to break,and nowhere on the wiki does it say that Susanno is unstoppable.

 

[nick012000]

Naruto's pretty much God tier at this point,

Click to shrink...

Fixed.

1.No,it really isnt

Click to shrink...

Yes, it is. Like I said, it's been called a "Seal" every time it was mentioned in the manga.

2.No,the wiki blatantly Says that its the Shinigami:

Click to shrink...

Yes, it's a spectral being. No, it's not some divine entity, just a chakra construct the same way that Sasuke's armor-spirit is.

3.Prevented them...You do realize that the Shodaime would've been able to Kick Orochimaru around like a pinball long enough for Tobirama to Break the technique don't you?

Click to shrink...

No, they couldn't have kicked Orochimaru around, because they were doubtlessly weakened from Orochimaru using the bodies of shit-tier chunin as the sacrifices for the technique, and this allowed him to exert enough control over them for him to erase their minds with those kunai. Additionally, he couldn't have broken the technique like Madara did anyway, because that requires the binding to have already been undone (and Orochimaru wouldn't have done so).

Nah, I could see the current Sasuke holding his own against Naruto, if they fought. Having an invulnerable sheild technique, an unstoppable attack technique, and the ability to mind-control the Kyuubi would probably add up to Naruto losing. Moreover, the way the Sharingan accumulates "haxx tricks" has been explained by how it works recently; it feeds off of the negative emotions of the user, and Sasuke has a lot of negative emotions to go around.

Click to shrink...

Yes that would be all fine and dandy..If Naruto wasn't currently one of if not the fastest Person walking the planet,none of those are going to help you if you cant react fast enough and Susanoo is far from being the toughest thing to break,and nowhere on the wiki does it say that Susanno is unstoppable.

Click to shrink...

Don't rely on the wiki, it's not accurate. The Susanoo is explicitly stated as being invulnerable, back during the Itachi fight where it was first introduced. Besides, Sasuke has the Sharingan eyes and the ability to fire Amaterasu blasts with a thought; super-speed won't work against him.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Fixed.

Click to shrink...

Careful mate; you might end up running into something with how thick those rose-tinted glasses are...

Don't rely on the wiki, it's not accurate. The Susanoo is explicitly stated as being invulnerable, back during the Itachi fight where it was first introduced. Besides, Sasuke has the Sharingan eyes and the ability to fire Amaterasu blasts with a thought; super-speed won't work against him.

Click to shrink...

Oh really? Tsunade and A would like to have a word with you; especially Tsunade, cause decking Madara is practically the highlight of her fighting prowess in the entire series and you're saying that it's apparently impossible.

 

[Raeck]

Yes, it is. Like I said, it's been called a "Seal" every time it was mentioned in the manga.

Yes, it's a spectral being. No, it's not some divine entity, just a chakra construct the same way that Sasuke's armor-spirit is.

No, they couldn't have kicked Orochimaru around, because they were doubtlessly weakened from Orochimaru using the bodies of shit-tier chunin as the sacrifices for the technique, and this allowed him to exert enough control over them for him to erase their minds with those kunai. Additionally, he couldn't have broken the technique like Madara did anyway, because that requires the binding to have already been undone (and Orochimaru wouldn't have done so).

Don't rely on the wiki, it's not accurate. The Susanoo is explicitly stated as being invulnerable, back during the Itachi fight where it was first introduced. Besides, Sasuke has the Sharingan eyes and the ability to fire Amaterasu blasts with a thought; super-speed won't work against him.

Click to shrink...

[Takes a deep breath]Ok then,time to prove you wrong again

1.There is a difference between the regular exploding seal and the Seal that allows you to summon the freaking Shinigami.

2.Dude,its called the Shinigami for the very simple reason that it is,sure it might be some chakra construct copy while the real one is doing something somewhere else,but that does not change the fact that it is in someway the freaking shinigami.

3.Just because their using "shit tier chunin' bodies does not mean they don't have all the skills they did in a past life,after all,the Shodaime was able to use Mokuton.Tobirama could beat Edo Tensei because he's the guy who created it,person who created it trumps guy who modified it,wouldnt you agree?

4.I believe Ender answered most of this,an as for the rest,Amaterasu has been avoided a few times,once by Sasuke himself and another time by A,both using pure speed,again proving you wrong.

If you are gonna debate this,at least try to do a little research.

 

[nick012000]

[Takes a deep breath]Ok then,time to prove you wrong again

1.There is a difference between the regular exploding seal and the Seal that allows you to summon the freaking Shinigami.

Click to shrink...

No shit. I'm not talking about exploding seals; it's much more complex than them. It is, however, a part of the same overall field, related to the summoning seals used to summon animals, and the storage seals used to carry equipment.

2.Dude,its called the Shinigami for the very simple reason that it is,sure it might be some chakra construct copy while the real one is doing something somewhere else,but that does not change the fact that it is in someway the freaking shinigami.

Click to shrink...

Did you know that 'shinigami' did not exist until the Japanese were exposed to the Western concept of the Grim Reaper? There is no such thing as 'the real shinigami'; traditionally, the spirit responsible for death is Izanami.

3.Just because their using "shit tier chunin' bodies does not mean they don't have all the skills they did in a past life,after all,the Shodaime was able to use Mokuton.Tobirama could beat Edo Tensei because he's the guy who created it,person who created it trumps guy who modified it,wouldnt you agree?

Click to shrink...

No. Remember, chakra is composed of both physical and mental energy; if your body is weakened, so is your chakra, even if your mind and skills remain the same. Besides, IIRC Sarutobi mentions during his fight with Orochimaru that the Edo Tensei was incomplete, and says something about Orochimaru having completed it.

4.I believe Ender answered most of this,an as for the rest,Amaterasu has been avoided a few times,once by Sasuke himself and another time by A,both using pure speed,again proving you wrong.

Click to shrink...

Hmm, granted. Assume would still hold his own, thought, because Naruto always slows down to launch his close-range attacks, and any long-range attacks he launches would be stopped by Izanagi.

If you are gonna debate this,at least try to do a little research.

Click to shrink...

I could say the same to you!

 

[Chibi-Reaper]

I started reading Naruto because it was an amusing story about skilled ninja and powerful demons, where the only hope of victory for one against the other was self-sacrifice and skilled techniques. Sure, there were some iffy bits, like 'magic eyes, okay, I guess I can see some of that', and special superspeed techniques that nobody has any idea how the yellow flash did, but it was pretty good, and people like Zabuza would actually come off as a threat at first.

At some point, the series decided it would rather be Dragon Ball Z.

Which isn't to say that dragon ball is bad. It did what it did pretty good, as I recall from the many years ago when I watched it, and watching Z first and then reading the original dragon ball must have helped, since the quality improved and I liked it better, rather than going from Dragon Ball to Z which was kind of a disappointment...

But really, this is story progression that has already been covered, and dragon ball did it better, and even so, dragon ball hit a point where you had to pull back and go 'Whoah. Woah. Okay dude, stop. Stop. You've done plenty. The heroes are allowed to have a happily ever after when the story ends, you can end the story. At this point, you have to be rolling cigars in hundred dollar bills and smoking them after every romp with a ten thousand dollar night with a high class lady, we understand that you've gotten used to a certain standard of living, but you could seriously have a conclusion somewhere and do something new and people would still read it. You don't have to drag this on until the last vestiges of nostalgia twist into a deep pit of suffering and omnicidal hatred as people start wishing your series would just die, already, you can move on. It's clear you don't know where to go, I mean, you keep using the same plot over and over. Just end it.'

Got a little off track there, hold on a second.

So.

I don't know, because I stopped reading it long ago, but can Naruto destroy the planet by yelling at it for half an hour and then entering SUPER MODE yet?

 

[Pipeman]

Not quite, but once Sasuke turns evil again and becomes jinchuuriki for the Juubi he should be able to.
And then Naruta naturally has to get another last minute power up, which means he'll be able to do the same.

 

[Raeck]

No shit. I'm not talking about exploding seals; it's much more complex than them. It is, however, a part of the same overall field, related to the summoning seals used to summon animals, and the storage seals used to carry equipment.

Did you know that 'shinigami' did not exist until the Japanese were exposed to the Western concept of the Grim Reaper? There is no such thing as 'the real shinigami'; traditionally, the spirit responsible for death is Izanami.

No. Remember, chakra is composed of both physical and mental energy; if your body is weakened, so is your chakra, even if your mind and skills remain the same. Besides, IIRC Sarutobi mentions during his fight with Orochimaru that the Edo Tensei was incomplete, and says something about Orochimaru having completed it.

Hmm, granted. Assume would still hold his own, thought, because Naruto always slows down to launch his close-range attacks, and any long-range attacks he launches would be stopped by Izanagi.
I could say the same to you!

Click to shrink...

1.My point is,you made it sound as if they had been sealed away,not had their souls eaten.

2.Yeah,except we're not talking about Japanese culture,we're talking about the god of death who eats peoples souls.

3.Let me try another tactic:You know how Madara is currently the Strongest person around,and how only Hashirama/the Shodaime was able to beat him,and how much Orochimaru pales in comparison?

4.Granted,yes he does slowdown if by even the tiniest bit,when he tries to/hits someone because somehow,despite 2 years of training,he has only learned a little beat of sealing and how to not get fucked up by Genjutsu,he dos not know any decen Ranged attack.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Which isn't to say that dragon ball is bad. It did what it did pretty good, as I recall from the many years ago when I watched it, and watching Z first and then reading the original dragon ball must have helped, since the quality improved and I liked it better, rather than going from Dragon Ball to Z which was kind of a disappointment...

But really, this is story progression that has already been covered, and dragon ball did it better, and even so, dragon ball hit a point where you had to pull back and go 'Whoah. Woah. Okay dude, stop. Stop. You've done plenty. The heroes are allowed to have a happily ever after when the story ends, you can end the story. At this point, you have to be rolling cigars in hundred dollar bills and smoking them after every romp with a ten thousand dollar night with a high class lady, we understand that you've gotten used to a certain standard of living, but you could seriously have a conclusion somewhere and do something new and people would still read it. You don't have to drag this on until the last vestiges of nostalgia twist into a deep pit of suffering and omnicidal hatred as people start wishing your series would just die, already, you can move on. It's clear you don't know where to go, I mean, you keep using the same plot over and over. Just end it.'

Click to shrink...

IIRC Toriyama wanted to end it all at the Freiza arc, but publishers wouldn't let him.

 

[nick012000]

1.My point is,you made it sound as if they had been sealed away,not had their souls eaten.

Click to shrink...

They're the same thing. Again, it was always called a seal in the manga; you assuming it was anything more than that was your mistake.

2.Yeah,except we're not talking about Japanese culture,we're talking about the god of death who eats peoples souls.

Click to shrink...

What I'm saying is that it's not a god of death. It is, at most, a functionary who works for the real goddess of death - and it's not even that, since it's just a chakra construct created by a magical mask.

3.Let me try another tactic:You know how Madara is currently the Strongest person around,and how only Hashirama/the Shodaime was able to beat him,and how much Orochimaru pales in comparison?

Click to shrink...

Because they've got Zetsu bodies now, who were created from Hashirama's cells and have his power, rather than shit-tier Chunin bodies.

4.Granted,yes he does slowdown if by even the tiniest bit,when he tries to/hits someone because somehow,despite 2 years of training,he has only learned a little beat of sealing and how to not get fucked up by Genjutsu,he dos not know any decen Ranged attack.

Click to shrink...

Naruto knows how to throw his Rasenshuriken when he's in Sage Mode, and he's got the Tailed Beast Bomb as well, once he goes into one of his Kyuubi modes.

 

[Raeck]

They're the same thing. Again, it was always called a seal in the manga; you assuming it was anything more than that was your mistake.

What I'm saying is that it's not a god of death. It is, at most, a functionary who works for the real goddess of death - and it's not even that, since it's just a chakra construct created by a magical mask.

Because they've got Zetsu bodies now, who were created from Hashirama's cells and have his power, rather than shit-tier Chunin bodies.

Naruto knows how to throw his Rasenshuriken when he's in Sage Mode, and he's got the Tailed Beast Bomb as well, once he goes into one of his Kyuubi modes.

Click to shrink...

1.Yes,its a seal that summons the god of Death and or a copy of it.

2.

It invokes the power of a spectral entity known as the Shinigami (死神; English TV "Reaper"; Literally meaning "death god") that can only be seen when it grasps one's soul.

Click to shrink...

Pay attention to the word Death God,please.

3.There is no Difference between them.

4.Decent meaning he dosent have to wait a few minutes for the power up to take effect.

 

[Selias]

The one whose soul is sealed.

Now that that's cleared up, the reason that the Hokages could be summoned was because of an Uzumaki technique that lets you summon and control the Shinigami. Orochimaru forced him to cut his stomach open, releasing their souls.

 

[Raeck]

The one whose soul is sealed.

Now that that's cleared up, the reason that the Hokages could be summoned was because of an Uzumaki technique that lets you summon and control the Shinigami. Orochimaru forced him to cut his stomach open, releasing their souls.

Click to shrink...

The whose soul is

seal

Click to shrink...

ed/eaten in/by the shinigami,who appears because of a seal.

Which Makes no sense,he is the god of death,why the Hell would he give up souls that easy,and for that matter,why hasnt he shown up at some point,wondering where the fuck all of those Souls went?

 

[Vindictus]

 

[Selias]

The whose soul is ed/eaten in/by the shinigami,who appears because of a seal.

Which Makes no sense,he is the god of death,why the Hell would he give up souls that easy,and for that matter,why hasnt he shown up at some point,wondering where the fuck all of those Souls went?

Click to shrink...

Why would he wonder about where they went? He got summoned and had his stomach cut open. I'm pretty sure he'd remember that happening. I know that I'd remember having my stomach cut open by some guy who looked like a snake.

Besides, maybe he can't appear in the "impure world" without being summoned.

 

[Raeck]

Why would he wonder about where they went? He got summoned and had his stomach cut open. I'm pretty sure he'd remember that happening. I know that I'd remember having my stomach cut open by some guy who looked like a snake.

Besides, maybe he can't appear in the "impure world" without being summoned.

Click to shrink...

I'd certainly notice if thousands of souls suddenly left my place of business/home/sphere of influence.

Click to shrink...

That makes a surprising amount of sense now.