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Rule 8 question

It depends on the context, but on first glance I'd say not really.

The telos of Rule 8 is to avoid flamewars. If a flamewar develops or seems likely to develop, Rule 8 infractions are much more likely. In this context specifically, you would want to make sure to avoid getting into an RL discussion of tax rates or Amazon or tax havens or whatever.
 
alethiophile said:
It depends on the context, but on first glance I'd say not really.

The telos of Rule 8 is to avoid flamewars. If a flamewar develops or seems likely to develop, Rule 8 infractions are much more likely. In this context specifically, you would want to make sure to avoid getting into an RL discussion of tax rates or Amazon or tax havens or whatever.
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Thank you for your reply. I will bear that in mind.
Polemarchos said:
So did you lead a insurrection somewhere,I'm curiously about why you were explicitly called out by the mods.
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Not sure I understand. I don't believe that I've been explicitly called out by QQ mods. I just wanted to check that the article was alright.
 
Polemarchos said:
There's a "zoat immigrants rule 8 warning".
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Zoat left SV after a controversy involving gender politics, and migrated his popular ongoing story here, bringing many new viewers. That warning was aimed at the new users on QQ, as a note that discussions like that one were not permitted here.

I don't recall there ever being any problems along those lines, so it looks like it worked.
 
This isn't going up for a couple of days, but I'd like it checked for Rule 8 compliance first please.

-------------------------​

16th February
22:30 GMT -8

I lean back in my chair slightly, giving every sign that I'm giving the question the consideration I deserve. Despite the fact that I've obviously prepared for something like that coming up, and the fact that the questioner is far less aggressive about it than Sunset was.

"No, I'm not a member of the National Firearm Organization. I don't think that -as a foreigner- it's appropriate for me to involve myself directly in American politics. My discussions with President Horne have touched on the area of armaments, but only in relation to military and paramilitary policy. My.. understanding of the President's position is that his stated position -that he's in favour of restrictions for practical reasons but doesn't think that they're constitutional at the Federal level- is.. his.. actual position and I can't think of any obvious reason for him to change it if he were re-elected."

The richly bearded man who asked question looks mildly disgruntled.

"I mean… I'm sure that Jon Horne has done a lot of things that people around here don't like, but he doesn't mislead people about his policy objectives. He'd have a far easier time of it professionally if he did."

There's a small laugh, but gun control is a extremely partisan issue in this part of the country and they want a lot more than that. Horne really isn't winning here, and I'm honestly not sure that he's trying. And with anyone else I'd say that was strategy but with him..? The Source alone knows.

Though his approach is classically Jon Horne: he effectively stated outright that he wouldn't sign any gun control Bills and yet he sounds so hostile to private gun ownership that hardly anyone in the pro-gun lobby heard him do it and he's gotten absolutely no credit for it. Honestly, hand the man a shoo-in election and he manages to turn it into an actual fight. Even with an opponent who knows that it would be electoral suicide to attack him directly. It's the acme of anti-skill.

And objectively, Senator Knight is making a worse case. He hasn't promised not to sign new Bills and despite what the people answering opinion polls seem to think he certainly hasn't said anything about repealing existing Federal restrictions. But he's making nicer noises and shaking hands publically with arms manufacturers and advertising in the right places because he actually knows how to-.

No, it isn't that. Horne knows how to run that sort of campaign, he just doesn't want to. And so he isn't. I like the man, but sometimes…

"Now, personally, I've gotten access to a whole arsenal of alien weapons, as well as all of the weird supervillain stuff that a man in my profession runs into from time to time. But in terms of human weapons… Well…"

I hold up my right hand and take my M134 out of subspace.

"I'll admit that I've taken this out on the range a few times and shot a few target to kindling. I'm heavy enough and strong enough that I can keep it on target without much difficulty and… I didn't have much contact with explosive-kinetic weapons until I came to Earth and they're.. kind of viscerally satisfying in a way that lasers and plasma weapons aren't."

And that's true, but the flipping rifle rounds it fires aren't going to do a thing to anything I'm going to fight. And since Jon will complain if I tell a direct lie I'll tell the man asking the question that if he directly asks… But I'm hoping that he won't.

I return the gun to subspace.

"How about your kids?"

"My eldest -Lynne- has access to my arsenal. She was taught how to use low calibre pistols before we first met, and I've made sure that she knows how to use some of the more accessible energy weapons. She's not a particularly large girl, and I don't think she's going to be using my guns for a few years yet. My younger children share a.. medical difficulty which means that I'm holding back on teaching them to fight."

And honestly, I think they'll be focusing on magic combat rather gun fighting.

"But we all live in a fortified mountain surrounded by telepathic guards. We don't exactly have to worry about home-invaders, and last time someone went after one of my children I decapitated their country's government."

That get an approving nod.

"Did you own a gun back on… Er… Apocalypse?"

The moderator frowns slightly at one man monopolising the microphone, but I'm pretty sure that it's the sort of thing that everyone wants to know and I'm not keen on using debate procedure to refuse to answer civil questions.

Instead, I smile. "Oh yes, definitely."

"Is that.. normal?"

"Ah…" Why is he asking about Apokolips? "Everyone who can get their hands on a gun gets one. Except Father, who has eye beams which make Superman's look like pea shooters and so doesn't need one."

I lean forwards slightly.

"But the difference between America and Apokolips is that you're a constitutional democracy while Apokolips is a totalitarian visocracy. You're an American Citizen; most Apokoliptians are literally called Lowlies. Citizenship comes with rights and responsibilities as part an passable of the arrangement. On Apokolips, nothing like that exists. There's order because my grandfather.. and after him my father, are so much stronger than everyone else that they can enforce it, not because there's any sort of agreement between the people who make up the society."

"In America, you have constitutions and laws, and mechanisms for enforcing and changing them. On Apokolips, people issue orders and if they're strong enough to enforce obedience then they'll be obeyed. If someone gets a gun and is strong enough to hold onto it when someone above them tells them they shouldn't, then they'll probably get a promotion. If someone above them even bothers to notice. And then? They behave exactly as the person they replaced did, except maybe a little less complacently."

He man nods. "So how d'you think a citizen in a democracy should learn to fire a gun?"

"Guns… Well, any weapon, but we're.. talking about guns here. So it's not that I think a person should be prohibited by law giving a five year old a magnum at a shooting range… I just think that a responsible citizen should realise that that's a dumb thing to do and not do it. Guns are implements for hurting and killing, and that's the context in which they should be presented. Whenever I see a picture in a gun magazine of a woman posing with an AK Forty Seven wearing a bikini I think that's a person who doesn't take the weapon they're carrying as seriously as they should."

"If you live in a rural environment, take your children out hunting with you a few times. Let them see what your rifle rounds do to the animals you shoot before you let them touch the thing. Make it very clear what the result of pulling the trigger with something or someone at the other end is. And if you know someone who spent some time in the military and has a story or two about someone who made an unfortunate mistake, make sure they share it. And when you're sure they're not going to do something stupid, then supervise them practicing with it before you take them out hunting with it."

"And if you live in an urban environment, try talking to the local police because I'm sure that they'd love to share some images of gunshot injuries to help you impress upon your children the seriousness of picking up a gun. If you're having one in the house, make sure that see those before they get the stupid idea that guns are cool toys into their heads and decide to play with one."

"Guns are tools for killing, and even when that killing is necessary or good should always be treated seriously."

The man asking the questions sits back, nodding in approval. I'm just glad he didn't ask whether Jon's children were taught how to use guns.

The moderator nods to one of the sound engineers. "Boy on the right there."

I relax a little. While children are perfectly capable of wrong-footing even the most seasoned political professional, the chance of the question actually being-.

The boy -who can't be more than ten- looks at me like I just ran over his puppy. And he's decided that I'm going to spend the rest of my life paying for it."

"I have a question about Mister Grayven's relationship with the Chinese government."

…

Oh shit.
 
It's kinda edging in the gun control thing... but I don't see it as being pro or anti gun control or being a platform for either side. I honestly think if you put a note in there about comments being mindful of current politics regards gun control, and foreign policies regards various countries, you'll be fine.

But that's me. tehelgee or one of the others might thing otherwise.
 
In keeping with a general policy of latitude for things that happen in the course of a story, I think this doesn't break any rules.

I would ask that you put a note in reminding readers not to argue about it in the thread, since there was a prior incident where someone tried that.
 
Mr Zoat said:
I don't know. Should I? I assumed that this was the place for asking about the rules, but if I've made a mistake then I apologise.
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It's just a matter that maybe you would have wanted to keep that chapter (or part of a chapter) private until you posted it in your story. That and if there IS something concerning, well, we can talk about it in private without random users butting in.
 
Mr Zoat said:
part an passable
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'part and parcel' is the phrase you're looking for.

And, hmm.

Contrary to the prevailing opinion, I would have suggested that you change this debate or Q/A to a something told, not something shown. Because, I can guarantee that no matter what you say afterwards, giving any view with your reasoning and logic attached(even if you say a million times it's the character's view and not yours, people won't care) will cause shit to happen. Since you've already posted publicly via this post, though, it's kind of a moot point.

So keep that in mind in the future.
 
Another one, and this should be the last I feel the need to run past you for a while.

-----------------------------------
​
16th February
22:35 GMT -8

That's where I recognise the face from.

"Lonnie Machin. You're a long way from Gotham."

"Er…"

That actually wrong-foots him. He's… Nine at the moment, so he probably hasn't started using his brain reprogrammer yet. He's just unusually cerebral and basically well-intentioned son of a man whose arms I crushed not so long ago. Not that he's know that at this point in his life. Actually, I should probably check-. Yes. And he's got a few of the neural abnormalities, too. Might explain the obsessiveness. Or that might just be a product if his unusual intelligence; he's used to the people around him not understanding what he's talking about and so he stops looking to those outside himself for guidance.

I really should try introducing him to Richard…

"How do you.. know who I am?"

"You're on a watch list. Boys my children are never allowed to date."

The moderator frowns at me in bemusement. "Ah, Grayven? Do you know… Ah, Lonnie, was it?"

Lonnie nods, recovering himself slightly.

Ring, biographical details.

By your command.

"Mister Machin up there is one of the most intelligent nine year olds in the country. Mister Machin got a scholarship to Gotham Academy -an excellent school- but decided to go keep going to Gotham North… Why was that again?"

"I don't think people should be sorted into winner and loses at six years old. If you tell kids they're going to a bad school, they'll identify with that. It's called the-."

"Pygmalion Effect, yes, I am aware of it. It's why I tell my children that they're New Gods."

Technically, only Lynne is a New God as she's the only one who started human. But I'm sure we can work on it if that bothers the younger children.

"Right."

He pauses.

Yes, Mr Machin is highly intelligent but lacks experience. Which doesn't mean that I can afford to reject what he says out of hand or mock him, but it does mean that his intellectual reach may well exceed his mental grasp. Thing is, when you're trying to reimagine the world, having someone like him around could be rather useful.

See how things go.

"You were asking about China?"

"Yes. Yes, you've been helping the Chinese government with their weapon development program."

"A very small part of it, yes."

"Why? I mean, you say that you like living in America because of the freedom it allows its citizens. Did you know that China executed all of its superheroes during the Great Purge?"

"They executed a lot of people whose faces didn't fit. And as a nation they're hardly unique in that regard. Russia was never quite able to exert that level of control on their own metahuman population but it wasn't for lack of trying. And I can name at least three superheroes who were shot dead by the American government for violently resisting internment during the Second World War."

"And what about more recently?"

I shrug. "Mister Machin, you're a conscientious sort of chap, so I assume that you watched my interrogation of the British Parliament's Preternatural Scrutiny Select Committee?" He nods. "Then you know what I consider my job on Earth to be. I am not here to fix all of the problems of human civilisation. I am here to keep the majority of the population alive."

"Why am I willing to work with a country will a less than stellar human right's record? Because by doing so I reduce the chance of planetary extinction. Because of me those few supervillains who manage to cling on inside China won't be clinging on for much longer. Because of me, some of the more dangerous technologies which the Chinese government had access to are being investigated in slightly less risky ways. I earn the Chinese government's favour and they're a little more willing to cooperate with me on matters of planetary security."

"Exactly what areas of their military have you been helping them with?"

"I'm not going to broadcast that information."

"How do you know that it's just something they're going to use against supervillains rather than their own people?"

"No, I expect that they'll use it in all areas of law enforcement. I know for a fact that several Great Ten members are routinely employed in capturing metahumans who refuse to work for the state." I shrug. "I personally consider the Chinese government's way of utilising metahumans to be inefficient; they value control above utility. But, China has the largest army in the world. If they didn't have slightly better superheroes, they would still have plenty of ways to beat down 'enemies of the state'. Probably with a higher body count."

I'm being a little disingenuous. I'll fully aware that part of the Great Ten's 'hazing' involves sending new members to beat up lightly or entirely unarmed demonstrators. It's a useful way of forcing them to identify with their team and with the state, and to deny them the opportunity to establish a separate support base for themselves amongst said 'enemies of the state'. And the possibility of a resistance movement forming around a powerful metahuman has gone from 'slight' to 'nonexistent'. And… 'Inefficient' is underselling exactly how I feel. I mean, I get it for the ones with destructive powers, but some of the people they've given life imprisonment sentences to…

But even if this version of Lonnie ends up going the 'profound honesty' route I certainly won't.

"So…" He shakes his head. "You don't think you could make a difference? You're not going to use your leverage at all?"

"China has about… Five top tier superfunctionaries." August General, Immortal Man, Thundermind, Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer. "I've helped three of them slightly. That gives me minimal leverage, and none at all outside of the narrow area of metahuman security. And if I sound off in public about some of the things I'd prefer them to do differently I'd lose the ability to influence them within my area of expertise. And while I might prefer it if certain things were different, I must live in the world that exists."

So let's not talk about the negotiations between Lex and the politburo concerning Security Council support for his planetary defence fleet, because I really don't want them to spot that in a move stolen from World War Z's Cuba I'm going to turn their own soldiers into social Trojan horses. Or that we intend to ensure that all of Earth's off-world colonies are liberal, capitalist and democraticish and not beholden to any Earth nation state.

"Mister Machin, it's not that government oppression doesn't bother me, it's that legion of murder-faries from the future bend on harvesting your civilisation bother me more. It's that space pirates bent on plunder and malign wizards bent on mass murder bother me more. Those are the things the Earth rather needs me to focus my energies on. Perhaps you'd rather that I do something else."

I shrug.

"And perhaps you could even make a convincing utilitarian argument for it; I'm far from being a perfect judge of such things. But by and large, I think I'm taking the right approach. Though if you want to try and change the Chinese government's minds on any subject, feel free. I doubt that you're involved in any other work with them that might be damaged by it so you've got a far freer hand than I do."

"But-."

"Tell you what. I'm sure that you could keep pushing me all evening. Why don't you let someone else have a turn now-" Because I'm supposed to be not-electioneering, not re-evaluating my entire strategy. "-and come and see be backstage once this is over? I'll try and give you the level of detail that might actually satisfy you."

He hesitates again, then nods.

"Thank you. I'll do that."
 
Mr Zoat said:
Another one, and this should be the last I feel the need to run past you for a while.
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It seems okay enough, but in the future, try not to let your voters steer you into situations like this. You can veto directions like 'Guys, that's getting perilously close to Rule 8 and I don't want to trip over it, choose a different path.' or something like that. I understand letting your voters have their freedom, but there's a duty to follow the rules too. If they keep pushing for it, report the thread and lets the mods smack some people down. We're not SB or SV, we won't permalock an entire quest just because of a few people. We'll just boot them out of the thread.
 
tehelgee said:
It seems okay enough, but in the future, try not to let your voters steer you into situations like this. You can veto directions like 'Guys, that's getting perilously close to Rule 8 and I don't want to trip over it, choose a different path.' or something like that. I understand letting your voters have their freedom, but there's a duty to follow the rules too. If they keep pushing for it, report the thread and lets the mods smack some people down. We're not SB or SV, we won't permalock an entire quest just because of a few people. We'll just boot them out of the thread.
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Excuse me friend, this is a fic not a quest.
 
Okay, back again. Twice now I've had non-modern political discussion shut down by moderators. The first was one discussing the American electoral college system which is over two hundred years old. The second was one discussing sex education on American schools, and while I'm not sure exactly how long that's been contentious it's a good deal longer than twenty years. The first had one person acting up, the second had no one.

If the rule doesn't actually apply to the last twenty years, could it please be reworded?
 
Mr Zoat said:
Okay, back again. Twice now I've had non-modern political discussion shut down by moderators. The first was one discussing the American electoral college system which is over two hundred years old. The second was one discussing sex education on American schools, and while I'm not sure exactly how long that's been contentious it's a good deal longer than twenty years. The first had one person acting up, the second had no one.

If the rule doesn't actually apply to the last twenty years, could it please be reworded?
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"The last twenty years" isn't meant to refer to disputes that only existed within the last twenty years, but rather to disputes that have been live controversy within that time.

The electoral college is a matter of modern political debate, even if it's two hundred years old. Likewise sex ed in public schools. The exemption for older topics is for things that were controversial in the past but aren't really under debate now.
 
Mr Zoat said:
So what political issues is it acceptable to talk about? I'm struggling to come up with anything that wasn't controversial during at least some point during the last twenty years.
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"Controversial" is a scale, not a binary. We don't care if literally anyone has been arguing about it; we do care if it's been a matter of "political debate" (like, people arguing over it on news channels, politicians on either side, whatever).

We've generally ruled that writing about World War II is fine, for instance. There are still all kinds of controversies about this, but they're mostly scholarly matters at this point, and (most pertinently for us) they don't tend to automatically feed into the Single Giant Internet Politics Fight which is the thing we're trying to avoid.
 
Okay, but that doesn't help me work out in advance what issues are allowed and what issues aren't. How is the American electoral college controversial enough to shut down a discussion? In the thread in question, yes, one poster gleefully abandoned reason, but that was one person.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Okay, but that doesn't help me work out in advance what issues are allowed and what issues aren't. How is the American electoral college controversial enough to shut down a discussion? In the thread in question, yes, one poster gleefully abandoned reason, but that was one person.
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Useful rule of thumb, if it's been a political talking point at any time since around Nixon, don't bring it up we're still arguing about it.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Okay, but that doesn't help me work out in advance what issues are allowed and what issues aren't. How is the American electoral college controversial enough to shut down a discussion? In the thread in question, yes, one poster gleefully abandoned reason, but that was one person.
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By its nature, enforcement of Rule 8 is going to be largely reactive. If a post doesn't cause a problem in the thread, we'll be less likely to take action; if there is a big flamewar, we'll be more likely to, even if the topic is one that's borderline (and wouldn't have been an issue if there wasn't a fight).

This of course makes it hard to predict ahead of time what might cause an issue and what won't. Given your large and active threads, it's probably not possible to keep Rule 8 infractions down to zero. But you can be reassured that we're not holding this against you or against anyone else in the thread who isn't taking part in flamewars; we aren't going to pull an SB and lock things down for a week because some idiots can't shut up.
 
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