Supers VS Guns

[SuperPulp2789]

Just a thought, aside from cops and vigilantes, how much do guys like The Joker have in regards to guns from other criminal types?

Less likely to hesitate on shooting the guy

Maybe less chances of giving him a glass of water for him to smash and use as a weapon

 

[D'waawwu]

Says who? I mean, in what possible world does the fact that most soldiers never hit another human being (while most capes do) not have a bearing on the discussion of guns versus superpowers? As far as I can see it's one of the big, central issues of the topic.

I mean this sincerely and honestly when I ask this, but what do you think could possibly matter more than that in this discussion?

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Because the point isn't to kill the target yourself as individual, it's to kill them as part of a group. It's not about individual confirmed kills. You have all this data and you don't seem to understand it's not about individual lethality but achieving an objective. Who cares if you don't have a confirmed kill if your suppression allowed someone else to do their job.

Maybe less chances of giving him a glass of water for him to smash and use as a weapon

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I fucking hate that scene.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

I fucking hate that scene.

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I remember a dumber scene, a cop has the joker in his sights and merely tells him to surrender whilst pointing a gun at him….Joker approaches and is later seen with a gun

 

[Connamer]

Because the point isn't to kill the target yourself as individual, it's to kill them as part of a group. It's not about individual confirmed kills. You have all this data and you don't seem to understand it's not about individual lethality but achieving an objective. Who cares if you don't have a confirmed kill if your suppression allowed someone else to do their job.

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Because that shifts the entire conversation away from the question of 'are guns a reasonable defense against capes' and onto a much larger issue of how capes are treated systemically. Which, by the way, is a shift that you yourself decided on. That wasn't the original question asked of the thread, nor is it a topic that anyone else covered, nor is it a position I addressed in any of my own posts. People have talked about guns in the hands of criminals, guns in the hands of capes, the nature of plot armor, the accuracy and efficacy of firearms, etc. But as for capes facing entire squads of soldiers at once?

Nobody but you is talking about that.

You don't get to change the premise of the thread (without telling anyone, I might add) and then present it as if that was the entire point all along. That isn't how it works. If you want your argument to be taken seriously you have to actually engage with the thread, and if you want to change the topic you need to make that clear, and present your new evidence. Now, if you want to do that, if you want to talk about the broader topic of how a world where capes are fought by entire military units would function, we can do that. I've got a whole load of ideas on that subject, though I don't think you'd like what I have to say.

Just a thought, aside from cops and vigilantes, how much do guys like The Joker have in regards to guns from other criminal types?

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I think the idea with villains like the Joker is that they use super-psychology to ask the right things of the right people. Something like... the Joker wouldn't have asked for a glass of water if the person would have said no. He'd have asked for something else. Or mocked and provoked him, or something. Whatever would have worked in that scenario. Point being that the Joker is capable of reading people and understanding them so well that he can manipulate them the first time he meets them.

Now personally I don't like that idea, because it smells strongly like post-hoc rationalization. A way to explain why someone with the Joker's MO could operate for so long, but only cooked up after the fact.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

The Joker, I think has success due to being "insane enough to do it" and as such go beyond mere bravery to some really big dangerous stunts….and succeeds because he actually keeps trying

 

[Connamer]

The Joker, I think has success due to being "insane enough to do it" and as such go beyond mere bravery to some really big dangerous stunts….and succeeds because he actually keeps trying

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Yeah, the whole 'insanity as a superpower' thing has been used with him a number of times. Sometimes literally. Sometimes to an excessive degree.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

Yeah, the whole 'insanity as a superpower' thing has been used with him a number of times. Sometimes literally. Sometimes to an excessive degree.

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It takes more than sheer will to do stuff, where's the skill? I mean while the Joker is NOT supposed to have a past, they look to be heavily leaning into that "one bad day thing"

Yeah, it's scary to think a mere nobody became The Joker, but it leads a question as to where he got all the skills and planning and the like

At least Dark Knight, has the implication that Joker was some really secret ex special forces

 

[Hellhound_dow]

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By artificially limiting the statistics like that to just 9mm, you really shoot your argument in the foot. There is a huge difference between being shot by a 9mm and a 12 gauge shotgun slug, for instance. Also, a majority of those that survive being shot with any gun are either shot in a non-lethal area and essentially a flesh wound, or have medical aid supplied in a quick manner, so that is another fallacy to your argument. While 9mm is a pretty common round, it is not the be-all end-all of bullets. Yes, a basic jacketed 9mm round can be lethal or non-lethal depending on location on the body hit, and how soon they can get medical help. A .50 caliber pistol round is a magnitude more lethal if you hit anywhere on the torso. Even limiting it to just pistols like that is not a true limit due to pistols that can fire shotgun shells, which have a spread to dodge instead of a single slug, assuming they are using buck or bird shot, and not a specialized round like a flamethrower or explosive round, which, while not legal, is probably possible to get on a black market.

This is also assuming a lot more research wasn't put into weapons technology in a world of super powered beings or individuals existing, and just using modern existing technology and weapons research.

Skill does count for a lot but a novice amateur with a gun is considered extremely dangerous, but also to themselves and innocent bystanders, not just to their foes. I would seriously doubt any gang or institution would have unskilled or untrained people guarding anywhere, though. Even when organized gangs go out to rob stuff in real life, they have lookouts helping them and most likely armed.

At least Dark Knight, has the implication that Joker was some really secret ex special forces

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I'd thought he was a former hitman/criminal even before being turned into the Joker, but I admit my knowledge of a lot of specific comic series lore is lacking.

 

[Connamer]

By artificially limiting the statistics like that to just 9mm, you really shoot your argument in the foot.

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I didn't limit myself to just 9mm. It was an example, but by no means was I implying that it was the only calibre that matters. It is, however, by far and away the most-used cartridge by both criminals and law enforcement, and as such we have the best data on it. Frankly the sample size available for 9mm is almost unbelievable.

That also means it's probably the most relevant when discussing the threat armed individuals pose to a cape, hero or villain. You can talk about 12 gauge slugs all you want (small tangent, but slugs are a meme), but it's really no more relevant than discussing 20mm. Yes, it's more powerful than 9mm, but it's also much, much, much more rare to encounter in most situations. There's a reason that even most officer-involved shootings don't involve shotguns or rifles. Well, there's multiple reasons, but the one that matters here is that most real-world shootings are quick and unplanned, so there's no time to use anything but a sidearm. I see no reason to assume that would change where capes are involved.

This is also assuming a lot more research wasn't put into weapons technology in a world of super powered beings or individuals existing, and just using modern existing technology and weapons research.

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We can talk about that if you want, but it's a very different discussion to what's been had so far. Plus, as I mentioned above, it would get into the territory of a much broader topic. At which point things get a lot more complicated and a lot more speculative.

It's much simpler to consider circumstances closer to what we see IRL.

I would seriously doubt any gang or institution would have unskilled or untrained people guarding anywhere, though.

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Bad news. Unskilled and untrained gang members are the most likely to be assigned as guards and lookouts. Mostly because the position is the most dangerous, as they're the most likely to interact with cops or members of other gangs. As such it's the lowest-value members that get the assignments most of the time, because they can be killed or arrested without the gang actually losing anyone valuable.

It's very similar with police. They don't detail SWAT members to sit around watching monitors or scanning badges. It's the fat, doughnut-scarfing idiots that aren't good for anything else that get stuffed into booths all day.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

I'd thought he was a former hitman/criminal even before being turned into the Joker, but I admit my knowledge of a lot of specific comic series lore is lacking.

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The thing is, he can drive multiple vehicle types, lead/train/coordinate many people and use all manner of weapon as if he just knows how to use them

I say "special forces" because they're really what can best be said at times to be "Evil James Bond", if ordered by more malicious/amoral types, to do what can best be said to be really longterm guerrilla warfare and strategic assassinations/sabotage to the point of getting civilians killed, hell getting civvies killed and causing chaos maybe part of the "plan" to destabilize an area severely

Versatile in multiple forms of combat, can disguise themselves and blend in, can create expendable resistance groups from locals

The ones who are more "blunt instruments" don't get caught, but they may leave too much evidence of shit being fucked up with a big trail of dead bodies and destroyed vehicles and buildings

 

[Hellhound_dow]

I didn't limit myself to just 9mm. It was an example, but by no means was I implying that it was the only calibre that matters. It is, however, by far and away the most-used cartridge by both criminals and law enforcement, and as such we have the best data on it. Frankly the sample size available for 9mm is almost unbelievable.

That also means it's probably the most relevant when discussing the threat armed individuals pose to a cape, hero or villain. You can talk about 12 gauge slugs all you want (small tangent, but slugs are a meme), but it's really no more relevant than discussing 20mm. Yes, it's more powerful than 9mm, but it's also much, much, much more rare to encounter in most situations. There's a reason that even most officer-involved shootings don't involve shotguns or rifles. Well, there's multiple reasons, but the one that matters here is that most real-world shootings are quick and unplanned, so there's no time to use anything but a sidearm. I see no reason to assume that would change where capes are involved.



We can talk about that if you want, but it's a very different discussion to what's been had so far. Plus, as I mentioned above, it would get into the territory of a much broader topic. At which point things get a lot more complicated and a lot more speculative.

It's much simpler to consider circumstances closer to what we see IRL.



Bad news. Unskilled and untrained gang members are the most likely to be assigned as guards and lookouts. Mostly because the position is the most dangerous, as they're the most likely to interact with cops or members of other gangs. As such it's the lowest-value members that get the assignments most of the time, because they can be killed or arrested without the gang actually losing anyone valuable.

It's very similar with police. They don't detail SWAT members to sit around watching monitors or scanning badges. It's the fat, doughnut-scarfing idiots that aren't good for anything else that get stuffed into booths all day.

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Because the likelihood of someone trying to break into a police station is a lot less than someone trying to break into a gang's hideout, drug lab, money stash, etc. The 'fat, donut-scarfing idiots' are put there usually because they can't be fired for some reason. If they could be fired, they would be, but usually end up catching shit from their fellow officers until they either shape up, or quit.

I'm quite curious where you got your stats on the level of skill of gang lookouts, though. That statement of yours doesn't sound logical to me, but human's being human's, I can see that being the case in a few areas and gangs. I'd hazard that more likely, gangs, while less organized than a true criminal syndicate such as the Mafia or the government, wouldn't have some newbie who doesn't know a pistol from a crack pipe guarding their drug labs or money stashes. While someone like that could end up being a lookout, more likely they are the smash part of a smash and grab. Even an average gang member would understand that the lookout would have to be someone at least smart enough to look out and shoot if needed.

Does the site you used for your statistics also include other weapons than guns, and does it specify the caliber and type of gun used?

On a side note, about one of your earlier posts about troops not firing guns or hitting targets, most military personnel never fire a weapon outside of basic training, so that severely skews that statistic. If you narrowed it down to only those that have been in a combat situation, not necessarily a war zone, then you'd have a more realistic statistic.

 

[Connamer]

Does the site you used for your statistics also include other weapons than guns, and does it specify the caliber and type of gun used?

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If I'm looking for actual statistics to post in an argument, I generally just use FBI crime data. It's... probably the best out there, even if it's a bit of a hassle to wade through sometimes. Especially if you want to get really granular and find data for specific weapons. The information is there most of the time, and more comprehensive than just about anywhere else, but it's still a hassle, and if you don't pay attention you can easily come away with incorrect conclusions. For example, firearm crimes are usually separated by lethal and non-lethal, but in some tables that just includes shootings that led to actual injury or death, and doesn't include incidents where shots were fired but nobody was hit.

Just be aware that if you want the actual, crunchy data, you need to download the PDFs and wade through them personally, because a lot of the stuff on the website itself is collated from a number of different data sets.

I'm quite curious where you got your stats on the level of skill of gang lookouts, though. That statement of yours doesn't sound logical to me, but human's being human's, I can see that being the case in a few areas and gangs.

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I'll admit I don't have data for that. It's just sort of... common knowledge in gang culture. The shittiest members get the shittiest jobs, which tends to be the riskiest jobs, which in turn are usually the jobs with the highest chance of arrest. That includes working as a guard or a lookout. Often enough gang members aren't trusted to do anything else until they've already been arrested and been to prison at least once.

See, the thing about gangs is that they're not organized the way you might expect. Almost everything about them is set up around protecting the people at the top from any kind of criminal charges. The entire point of moving up in the gang is to be less involved in the actual crimes, or at least less vulnerable to the consequences. That's often done through obfuscation and misdirection, but generally it means putting the most competent people where they can do the least, so they're least at risk.

Also, it's impossible to run a gang of any scale without members being arrested pretty regularly, so instead they lean into it, make it part of the nature and organization of the gang itself. Keep things compartmentalized, prevent access to any evidence that might lead to arrests or convictions of higher-ranking members, and hang lower-ranking members out as sacrifices while simultaneously keeping them loyal through the promise that after they do a stint they'll be read in on the real shit. Turn their cold-blooded and practical sacrifice into a ritual of initiation and trust. Also, with so many members in jail at any given time, they tend to run parallel organizations inside the prisons, largely to keep track of members doing time so there's as little opportunity as possible for them to turn.

On a side note, about one of your earlier posts about troops not firing guns or hitting targets, most military personnel never fire a weapon outside of basic training, so that severely skews that statistic. If you narrowed it down to only those that have been in a combat situation, not necessarily a war zone, then you'd have a more realistic statistic.

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Another thing where I don't have actual statistics, though in this case I haven't really gone looking. However, anecdotally, I do have several friends that served. Both saw combat, including one time their camp was hit with rockets. Neither of them actually ever saw an insurgent.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

Outside of superhero stuff, is it me, or there maybe a deep lack of "competency porn" especially for Armed Forces types

Instead they're treated as cannon fodder, almost no real tactics, they're just there

TBH, I think things such as actual CQC much less military tactics and gun based combat are things most don't really research

It's only much recently that I even found out what a "feint" was

 

[Connamer]

Outside of superhero stuff, is it me, or there maybe a deep lack of "competency porn" especially for Armed Forces types

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I mean, military fiction is an entire genre unto itself, with literally tens of thousands of published novels. There's enough of them that there's sub-genres and sub-sub-genres. Admittedly it's not as common in fanfiction or online fiction, but it's a huge thing. A huge thing.

Unless you mean within superhero stuff, rather than outside it? I'll admit I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking.

 

[SuperPulp2789]

I mean, military fiction is an entire genre unto itself, with literally tens of thousands of published novels. There's enough of them that there's sub-genres and sub-sub-genres. Admittedly it's not as common in fanfiction or online fiction, but it's a huge thing. A huge thing.

Unless you mean within superhero stuff, rather than outside it? I'll admit I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking.

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I know, I've read em and am impressed even with the average writers of it, outside of that stuff I can't help but feel most just don't know/appreciate military competency or try to show it in their work

I mean within superhero stuff and outside of it

 

[Hellhound_dow]

Another thing where I don't have actual statistics, though in this case I haven't really gone looking. However, anecdotally, I do have several friends that served. Both saw combat, including one time their camp was hit with rockets. Neither of them actually ever saw an insurgent.

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Ex-military here, and served with quite a few over my 12 years in the military that had been in warzones and a ton of others that never went near one. Most of the military is support for the few that go into warzones and easily 75% of the ones in a warzone are support there, also. Cooks, mechanics, technicians, armorers, drivers, pilots, supply department, etc, and while they are also armed in a warzone, they rarely 'man the wall's' so to speak in defense of the bases. More in their cases, they are armed in case SHTF and the base is invaded.

As for military competence in stories, it's very rare to have them be competent in a world of supers, and usually the competent ones are the screaming exception in the few stories I remember having read with any kind of magic or super power in a military setting, usually ending up with said competent ending up a hero or villain also. Most super powered works of fiction use the military as cannon fodder for the supers to show how mighty they are. I think most writers of super powered fictions have either never been in the military or never bothered to research the military (or just think the military is full of muscle bound morons.) so have issues writing a competent military into their works. On the other hand, anyone that's been in the military can tell you, the ones in charge come up with some seriously stupid shit to make their troops do, sometimes. "Promoted to beyond their level of competence," to paraphrase a quote.

 

[Bob Bob]

In a world of Supervillains and Superheroes, are guns a good defense against either without plot armor protecting the super?

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The problem lies in the very formulation of the question. How do we know how effective is a gun against a particular super? From the work in which this super is described. But in any work, the protagonist will have a plot armor, the only question is who the protagonist is. If this is a story about how some Superpuperman defeated the insidious Doctor Asshole, then Superpuperman will definitely live to see the finale, even if an entire army would be shooting at him at some point. And it doesn't matter what kind of superpowers he has or how dangerous firearms are in the real world. Doctor Asshole also will not be shot to death, because according to the plot, it is the Superpuperman who must defeat him with his signature superpuperattack.

But to minor characters anything can happen. Captain Loser won't be fast enough to cover himself with an impenetrable shield, and the bullet will blow his brains out. Captain Mediocrity also won't be fast enough to cover himself, a bullet will wound him in the shoulder, then, heroically overcoming the pain, he would throw a shield and knock out the enemy. Captain Lucky not only would be fast enough to use a shield, but will also beat off a bullet exactly in the head of the shooter. And Captain Fuckup will beat off a bullet in the head of a random passerby, and because of this he will have a lot of problems. And yes, all four Captains are the same character with the same capabilities. The author is a king and god in his work, and everything is as he wants.

Therefore, I have no idea how one can argue about the effectiveness of guns not even against all supers in general, but even against one particular super described in one particular work. He is not bulletproof, not supernaturally fast, does not have the foresight, those are facts from the original source, so a gun must be effective against him. But for 100500 chapters the super has never been shot, which is also a fact from the original source, which means that guns are not effective against him.

As for the discussion of why guns in the hands of ordinary gangers are useless against supers, it seems to me that this is the trope, known as "Worf Effect". The author needs to show how invulnerable super is, and super goes straight at opponents, and bullets bounce off him. The author needs to show how agile super is, and super dodges all shots. The author needs to show how fast super is, and super manages to grab the gun from the opponent's hands before he shoots. The author needs to show how invulnerable, fast and agile super is, and super beats off all bullets with the tip of his finger. It is always assumed by default that an opponent with a gun is dangerous, so an easy victory over him is a sign of extreme badassness. But this stamp has already been so beaten up that it has stopped working. Has another super defeated gangers with a guns? So what, they all can do it, anyone can do it with plot armor.