With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[AR760]

By the standards of the time it tool place in? Functionally, yes, because large portions of the myth we have in the modern day come from Athens, and they weren't exactly paragons of women's rights.

By modern standards? This shit still happens all over the place, so depending on cultural context it could absolutely be considered fine, but most nations that are considered "Western" would find it deplorable.

Personally? I simply do not give a shit and hope Aphrodite gets a similar punishment for being just as much of an abusive fuck as Zeus and Ares, but am otherwise unsurprised by Greek gods being giant assholes at every opportunity.

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Marital rape and forced marriages are immoral. Just because it was done in the past doesn't mean it wasn't fucked up. I mean, children today are still married to much older individuals, and some cultures consider that okay, yet that doesn't change the fact that it's fucked up.

Women being forced into relationships they don't want to be in is immoral. If you disagree then I think we see the world so differently we can't come to agreement. And that's the core of Hephaestus and Aphrodite's entire sham of a marriage.

Are you saying that it's okay to force a woman into a relationship and punish her if she wants to leave or doesn't give the man she was forced to be with love and her body? Yes or no?

Because it seems like you're essentially saying that Aphrodite should be punished because she did exactly that.

And castrating Ares for sleeping with a woman only with Hephaestus because she was forced into it under pain of smiting makes Hephaestus a monster

 

[Patrick Holt]

---

Also it feels like Zeus, King of the Gods, Slayer of Campe and Defeator of Typhon. Winner of the Titanomachy, the Gigantomachy, and First Olympiamachy went out way to goddamned easily.

He has more experience in combat, practice with holding onto the power of a Titan, and a reputation that was apparently great enough to prevent any of the other pantheons more or less from playing fuck fuck games until Heaven, which is notoriously powerful even amongt the mythologies in DC came around.

Zeus is a big deal, and built his kingship by having the power and skill to defeat enemies like Typhon that none of the other Gods could even touch. And even in DC his power and superiority amongst the Olympians is pretty well established, so contrary claims of mythology not matching DC don't really fit.

Especially when DC straight up says that the Greek Mythos for the most part were still accurate.

Zeus may have his flaws, but he is strong, and defeating someone like that should feel more significant and be more difficult. The narrative tension essentially disappeared, and to me the story arc consequently loses a lot of its impact give the things I've mentioned.

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First, yes I would have enjoyed a longer battle or if there had been more time between when the spell surgery happened and when the fight started to give Hephaestaean more training with his new power, but those are things you have to accept in super hero stories things happen fast.

If Mr. Zoat had taken 4 days to just write "And then Zeus threw a lightning bolt, then Zeus threw two lightning bolts, then Zeus threw a rock, and a lightning bolt," people would be complaining the fight was to long.

I think what we got was really good, we have a man in post-futeristic armor, with the greatest weapons that have yet to be imagined fighting a man in a skirt and the man in the shirt is ripping the armor into pieces destroying the weapons used against him and the only reason the man in armor wins is because every attack is aimed at one target, the one weakness he knows his opponent has, because he originally split Zeus' skull before.

But, as far as I understand Mr. Zoat has no problem with other people playing in his sandbox, so If you are unsatisfied with the battle you can always make your own. If you do I would love to read it.

 

[Bud-E]

First, yes I would have enjoyed a longer battle or if there had been more time between when the spell surgery happened and when the fight started to give Hephaestaean more training with his new power, but those are things you have to accept in super hero stories things happen fast.

If Mr. Zoat had taken 4 days to just write "And then Zeus threw a lightning bolt, then Zeus threw two lightning bolts, then Zeus threw a rock, and a lightning bolt," people would be complaining the fight was to long.

I think what we got was really good, we have a man in post-futeristic armor, with the greatest weapons that have yet to be imagined fighting a man in a skirt and the man in the shirt is ripping the armor into pieces destroying the weapons used against him and the only reason the man in armor wins is because every attack is aimed at one target, the one weakness he knows his opponent has, because he originally split Zeus' skull before.

But, as far as I understand Mr. Zoat has no problem with other people playing in his sandbox, so If you are unsatisfied with the battle you can always make your own. If you do I would love to read it.

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Cut to Hephestean training montage.

 

[jonasquinn]

What sanctity is there to a marriage that was forced, and that Aphrodite never wanted to be in to begin with? How can there be respect for a partner you didn't choose and had to remain in a legal relationship with due to it being enforced at the tip of a lightning bolt?

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How about trying? Giving the other person forced into this loveless marriage a chance? Or at the very least not constantly fucking his abuser and not giving a shit that everyone knows?

It's slightly concerning why you can't seem to see the difference between a situation where a woman is forced to marry someone she never chose and is forced to stay in that relationship due to the power of Zeus, and a typical relationship.

Aphrodite was being held hostage in a forced relationship, so no, there is a difference there and I look at the dynamic between her and Ares differently because of it.

Which makes it ironic that you seem to be saying I can't seem to understand the dynamics of a relationship when you're the one presenting a significantly more fucked up perspective.

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Get off your high horse, just about everyone in Greek Mythology had a shitty marriage by modern standards, the same logic that says that Zeus should be ashamed for constantly cheating on his wife also applies to Aphrodite

The previous chapter straight up said that Zeus hasn't lost a step from the power he had in the past.

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My bad, I missed that part

Moreover Hephaestaen is extremely new to his power and has little experience with it

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Even if we assume that Gods don't come into existence with preexisting knowledge on how to use their abilities, which they very well could, Hephaestaen's new domain is very similar to his old one and he's been keeping up with technology despite it not being his domain for centuries

as compared to Zeus who fought in several wars and overcame and slew great monsters like Typhon who was said to be so powerful that if Zeus didn't act as quickly as he did he would have become king over the Gods and Man because none of the other Olympians could do jack shit to it.

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Again, raw might

Moreover you're forgetting that Zeus took Olympus back after the first Olympiamachy and slew the Giants in the Gigantomachy. Which I noticed you completely ignored in order to try to force through your perspective.

Surprisingly common. Selectively ignoring, consciously or not, perspectives and information that does not affirm your current perspective.

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First I didn't ignore it you didn't mention it and secondly it again doesn't prove that Zeus possesses any skill

Hephaestaen's domain contains all of technology which is greater than just weather, especially when technology that can control weather exists

He let his father, the man who crippled him and was the root cause of over half his sufferings, walk away. Either Ares did something worse to him, Heph is prideful to a previously unexplained degree, or he's just decided to be willful, and castrated the guy because he felt like it.

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He didn't just "let him walk away" he banished him and stripped him of his godhood

Ares was punished but he's still a god, Zeus had the being that gave him most of his wisdom removed, his godly powers taken and was banished to have to live among the humans he spent millennia looking down on and abusing, most likely for at least a few hundred years, and when he finally gets back to Olympus and gets his godhood back he'll have to accept that he's now nowhere near top dog and his replacement has a huge grudge against him

And arranged marriages are things we consider to be more immoral than not these days. Moreover forcing women to be in relationships they don't want to be in is kind of a big no no. Did you know that?

Are you saying that it is okay for Aphrodite to be unable to leave Hephaestus? For her to be forced into a relationship at the tip of a lightning bolt and bound to it by the same? That Hephaestus is entitled to the love and body of an unconsenting Aphrodite?

Is that what you're advocating for or trying to justify?

Come on. Answer. Because that's essentially what you're implying and that's the situation as it stood between the two of them

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Ah yes, a typical arranged marriage. Where someone threatens to physically harm you if you don't comply. That makes it perfectly reasonable. They had to comply to the situation for practical reasons. They didn't want to be harmed, so they got married to not be harmed. But Aphrodite also wanted to have sex with Ares, and there was no consequence for doing so, so she did that for practical reasons as well.

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Something you both seem to be intentionally ignoring is that it wasn't Hephaestus who forced Aphrodite into this marriage, it was Zeus

Was Hephaestus happy about it in the beginning? Possibly but literally everyone wanted to marry Aphrodite and a few months into the marriage he would have bit your hand off for a divorce, he was just as much of a victim as Aphrodite for being locked into a loveless marriage but he did the responsible adult thing and didn't go out of his way to make it worse whereas Aphrodite and Ares did

At the end of the day anyone who says they wouldn't be mad when they learn that their partner cheated on them with one of their abusers even if they claimed it was for "true love", which by the way if that's true then Aphrodite will have no problem marrying the now castrated Ares once her divorce is finalised, is lying or a very strange person

 

[Assblaster5000]

Marital rape and forced marriages are immoral. Just because it was done in the past doesn't mean it wasn't fucked up. I mean, children today are still married to much older individuals, and some cultures consider that okay, yet that doesn't change the fact that it's fucked up.

Women being forced into relationships they don't want to be in is immoral. If you disagree then I think we see the world so differently we can't come to agreement. And that's the core of Hephaestus and Aphrodite's entire sham of a marriage.

Are you saying that it's okay to force a woman into a relationship and punish her if she wants to leave or doesn't give the man she was forced to be with love and her body? Yes or no?

Because it seems like you're essentially saying that Aphrodite should be punished because she did exactly that.

And castrating Ares for sleeping with a woman only with Hephaestus because she was forced into it under pain of smiting makes Hephaestus a monster

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Since I apparently haven't made my opinion clear to you, I suppose I'll just have to theatrically bluntly state it.

I truly, genuinely, with all of my heart wish that the Greek gods, scummy rat bastards they are nearly one-and-all, were dead and gone. All of the largely known ones are walking, living breaches of The Geneva Convention that have rapped, murdered, stolen, and destroyed whatever they so pleased throughout their miserable existences.

I don't care what they do, because at best I'm pleasantly surprised but otherwise unmoved and at worst they've just done as my admittedly biased view on them already knew they would.

They're gods, and they think that power and privilege should let them get away with all the worst things Mankind hates itself for doing. I don't care that Aphrodite was in an arranged marriage that caused her mildly suffering at worst for a few millennia because of all the people she got killed in The Trojan War. I don't care that Zeus was displayed as weak and idiotic arguably beyond what could be explained away by in-universe mechanics because of all the people he's raped and murdered simply because he could.

I don't care what happens to The Olympians, because if they were real I'd want worse done to them for everything they did to us.

 

[AR760]

First, yes I would have enjoyed a longer battle or if there had been more time between when the spell surgery happened and when the fight started to give Hephaestaean more training with his new power, but those are things you have to accept in super hero stories things happen fast.

If Mr. Zoat had taken 4 days to just write "And then Zeus threw a lightning bolt, then Zeus threw two lightning bolts, then Zeus threw a rock, and a lightning bolt," people would be complaining the fight was to long.

I think what we got was really good, we have a man in post-futeristic armor, with the greatest weapons that have yet to be imagined fighting a man in a skirt and the man in the shirt is ripping the armor into pieces destroying the weapons used against him and the only reason the man in armor wins is because every attack is aimed at one target, the one weakness he knows his opponent has, because he originally split Zeus' skull before.

But, as far as I understand Mr. Zoat has no problem with other people playing in his sandbox, so If you are unsatisfied with the battle you can always make your own. If you do I would love to read it.

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Zeus barely put up a fight. As the King of the Gods who is drawing strength from multiple titans, he barely put up a fight. Moreover you have shit as silly as Hephaestus hurting Zeus with plasma and talking about how Zeus doesn't understand science, which is dumb because Lightning is already plasma.

So not only does the scene not make sense, you have Hephaestus hurting Zeus with lightning and overriding one of the keystones of his own domain. The very premise sounds silly.

Moreover according to the Theogony, after Zeus reaches manhood, Cronus is made to disgorge the five children and the stone "by the stratagems of Gaia, but also by the skills and strength of Zeus. In the damned source material Zeus being skilled as well as strong is a fundamental part of his myth, yet none of that is present here. The story and many of the readers for some reason are treating Zeus like an unskilled idiot when none of that is true.

Zeus only using Lightning when this story took the time to talk about how he was apparently drawing power and strength from all the Titans in Tartarus is odd too, especially since that factor was built up to be a factor in what makes the fight with him difficult. But he barely used any of his control over the wind and air to fight either.

When he did, somehow Hephaestus disrupted it with plasma, again forgetting that Lightning is plasma. So yeah.

Then you have this scene.

"I hoped that I'd meet you here, Ares." Hephaestaean turns away from where Zeus is clasping his forehead to face Ares. "Did you really think that I'd forget what you can do? That isn't just a weapon, it's an engineering tool. Almost anything can be used destructively, but that doesn't make my forge hammer into a weapon of war."

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Yet isn't a weapon of war fundamentally anything used as a weapon in war? That seems seriously pedantic. I mean, is a knife no longer a weapon because it can be used to prepare food or cut paper? The logic seems odd, and like another way for Hephaestean to get to dunk undeservedly over Zeus and Ares.

Then you have this.

Ares grabs his sword and shield as Hephaestaean swings at him. Ares is easily able to turn aside the head of the hammer with his shield, but can only stare as the shield begins to rust away from the point of impact.

"Things built-" Hephaestaean swings again and Ares steps towards him, catching the haft of the hammer on the rim of his flaking shield. The blow is stopped but now the decay is even faster. "-by the hand-" Ares stabs at the cleft in Hephaestaean's chest plate, only for the sword to be intercepted from the side by a mechadendrite. "-of man or god."

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So now you have Hephaestus overriding Ares who is acting as a God of War in his use of a shield, which is used in battle in war. Again, seems like it's expanding Hephaestean's abilities at the cost of writing off the strength of his opponents, taking any sense of the victory feeling earned out of the equation.

Hephaestean and Hephaestus has no experience in combat. None. He even says as much in previous chapters. Yet somehow he is able to outfight both Zeus and Ares in combat and overcome them in a test of skill and strength? When they have eons to have learned to use their powers to have fought, and have either the domain or in the case of Zeus the sheer experience that Hephaestus lacked?

Come on. Can you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Michael Vonica]

Tech's already gone through that growth, it's called human history.

The more people know the faster they learn even more, we went from the first working plane to landing on the moon in less than a century, and Heph's boost is working thanks to alien schizotech and a direct tap into The Collective Unconscious, the first of which is massively potent technology and the second is quite literally the single most powerful thing in the DC multiverse. If that doesn't give a functionally insurmountable conceptual advantage then absolutely nothing can.

Edit:Also, if any of that stuff with Boss Smiley actually happened (or was truthful for that matter) than he pretty clearly spelt out that the mythological forces sounding Humanity are very rapidly losing the ability to stop them from accidentally destroying the entire species because of how advanced our technology has gotten.

Combine that with the fact that Earth's deities are subject to The Collective Unconscious of Humanity making them far less noteworthy in the modern age compared to tech and that the idea of "The God Species" (Man vs Nature with Man already winning, essentially) most likely existing on Earth 16 saying that "Technology beats the sky" isn't very farfetched. Especially since Kordtech has very publicly announced they're making drones to control the weather.

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If Heph works off the concept of technology as in how technology actually functions, them despite all those amazing things tech can do, he would be limited by how tech actually works. The reason for the rapid advancement, the reason for all those great feats, is the ability to concentrate immense amounts of human effort into singular purposes. A rocket takes thousands of people thousands of hours to make the one device for the one purpose. And that's ignoring money, resources, and energy. Using none of that, Heph managed to make tech to take down Zeus in less than a day, by himself, not using tech that was made to specifically counter Zeus in any way other than catching lightning, but tech that was just so powerful, it could swat Zeus away in a couple hits.

In terms of actual actions taken, Heph prepared nowhere near enough to do what he did. But if this was just a direct confrontation between domains and concepts, judged purely on which one was stronger, Heph would win. That would mean ignoring all the details of what we actually see, and simply thinking of it as a metaphor for what actually happened. Which I'm fine with. Of course, comic book world has comic book rules, and one guy can make a robot army all on his own, so maybe attempting to apply reality is pointless here. In which case, all we can do is measure off of our subjective views on the story's thematic potency, which I don't care about.

Also, if Heph worked not off the reality of tech, but human perception of it, then he would be way stronger. People don't understand how tech works. All they see is the great feats, and none of the cost. It just works, like magic, but easier. But in that case, obscure tech would be less in his venue than the regular every day stuff. Because for regular people, xenotech isn't the first thing to come to mind when someone says technology.

 

[BrotherofaStudio]

It occurs to me that with the presence of Metis, and the unmanning of Ares, I wonder if the general level of intelligence and common sense among heroes, villains and in-between will skyrocket to an SI's level, if not exceed it.

VANDAL SAVAGE: .....I suddenly realize that a great many of my plans, both past and present, to ensure the ascension of mankind are COMPLETELY idiotic.

LEX LUTHOR: Wait, YOU TOO?!

(Meanwhile at Arkham Asylum....)

JOKER: ARRRGH! What's happening to me?! I'm actually listening to what the Quacks here are saying! I'm seeing reason and feeling guilty! MAKE IT STOP!!!

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Probably not going to happen... But I'd love it if it does.

 

[AR760]

How about trying? Giving the other person forced into this loveless marriage a chance? Or at the very least not constantly fucking his abuser and not giving a shit that everyone knows?

Get off your high horse, just about everyone in Greek Mythology had a shitty marriage by modern standards, the same logic that says that Zeus should be ashamed for constantly cheating on his wife also applies to Aphrodite

My bad, I missed that part

Even if we assume that Gods don't come into existence with preexisting knowledge on how to use their abilities, which they very well could, Hephaestaen's new domain is very similar to his old one and he's been keeping up with technology despite it not being his domain for centuries

Again, raw might

First I didn't ignore it you didn't mention it and secondly it again doesn't prove that Zeus possesses any skill

Hephaestaen's domain contains all of technology which is greater than just weather, especially when technology that can control weather exists

He didn't just "let him walk away" he banished him and stripped him of his godhood

Ares was punished but he's still a god, Zeus had the being that gave him most of his wisdom removed, his godly powers taken and was banished to have to live among the humans he spent millennia looking down on and abusing, most likely for at least a few hundred years, and when he finally gets back to Olympus and gets his godhood back he'll have to accept that he's now nowhere near top dog and his replacement has a huge grudge against him


Something you both seem to be intentionally ignoring is that it wasn't Hephaestus who forced Aphrodite into this marriage, it was Zeus

Was Hephaestus happy about it in the beginning? Possibly but literally everyone wanted to marry Aphrodite and a few months into the marriage he would have bit your hand off for a divorce, he was just as much of a victim as Aphrodite for being locked into a loveless marriage but he did the responsible adult thing and didn't go out of his way to make it worse whereas Aphrodite and Ares did

At the end of the day anyone who says they wouldn't be mad when they learn that their partner cheated on them with one of their abusers even if they claimed it was for "true love", which by the way if that's true then Aphrodite will have no problem marrying the now castrated Ares once her divorce is finalised, is lying or a very strange person

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1. Why would Aphrodite owe Hephaestus anything? She was a victim forced into a relationship she never wanted. Or are you saying that women forced into marriages under the threat of physical force should be made to try to make it work? Come on.
2. What you're doing with Zeus is whataboutism. It is irrelevant that all of them had shitty marriages, nor does it make the way Hephaestus is and has acted cool, or make it suddenly all okay regarding what Zeus did/
3. No worries. I get how things get missed in the chapter.
4. Again, we know that Zeus has more than raw might because it says so in the Theogony, one of the keystone elements in Greek mythology. On top of everything else I mentioned. See here.

According to the Theogony, after Zeus reaches manhood, Cronus is made to disgorge the five children and the stone "by the stratagems of Gaia, but also by the skills and strength of Zeus

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5. Aphrodite was never Hephaestus's partner. She was a hostage. He has no right to feel pissy that she didn't jump feet first into a marriage that she was threatened to make, not allowed to leave, and never wanted to be in to begin with. And if he does that speaks volumes about the kind of person he was.

If he wanted to have sole ownership over Aphrodite's body and love when it came to a relationship she was forced into, that's fucked up. And if he's throwing a tantrum and doing shit like castrating people for being the person that Aphrodite choose instead of him, that's fucked up.

 

[Radix]

So watched the latest S4 episode, and it looks like Grayven just showed up. And he is purple with grey hair. Which I totally would not have recognized without this fic.

What is the current status of the League? Did they do any reforms after Paul's report a couple years back?

Is Batman still chairman? In YJ S1+2 canon it was rotating, and I don't think we have observed that. Although I guess we haven't seen much of the inner working of the League except for OL's "exercise" since Nabu.

 

[Prognostic Hannya]

"I think… God of Eunuchs."

He brings the hammer down.

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Could you clarify on what the canon for this story is about the past relationship between Heph, Aphrodite, and Ares?

 

[jonasquinn]

1. Why would Aphrodite owe Hephaestus anything? She was a victim forced into a relationship she never wanted. Or are you saying that women forced into marriages under the threat of physical force should be made to try to make it work? Come on.
2. What you're doing with Zeus is whataboutism. It is irrelevant that all of them had shitty marriages, nor does it make the way Hephaestus is and has acted cool, or make it suddenly all okay regarding what Zeus did/
3. No worries. I get how things get missed in the chapter.
4. Again, we know that Zeus has more than raw might because it says so in the Theogony, one of the keystone elements in Greek mythology. On top of everything else I mentioned. See here.

5. Aphrodite was never Hephaestus's partner. She was a hostage. He has no right to feel pissy that she didn't jump feet first into a marriage that she was threatened to make, not allowed to leave, and never wanted to be in to begin with. And if he does that speaks volumes about the kind of person he was.

If he wanted to have sole ownership over Aphrodite's body and love when it came to a relationship she was forced into, that's fucked up. And if he's throwing a tantrum and doing shit like castrating people for being the person that Aphrodite choose instead of him, that's fucked up.

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What Hephaestus resents isn't that Aphrodite doesn't love him it's that she took a shitty situation that they were both stuck in, a loveless marriage that they couldn't leave without incurring Zeus' wrath, and made it infinitely worse for him by having a blatant and unapologetic affair with one of his main abusers who then used the fact he was sleeping with Hephaestus' wife as yet another avenue to torment him

Just how bad Aphrodite's actions are depend a lot on what she does next, if she maintains her relationship with Ares despite his condition and Heph's new position then she was at least partially acting out of genuine feelings, in which case I would heavily question her taste in men but would somewhat lessen how bad what she did was, if she changes her tune at all then she was clearly just maintaining her affair with Ares specifically to hurt Hephaestus which makes it significantly worse

At this point let's just leave it, you clearly have your view on the whole affair and I have mine and neither of us are going to do anything to change the others mind

 

[AR760]

What Hephaestus resents isn't that Aphrodite doesn't love him it's that she took a shitty situation that they were both stuck in, a loveless marriage that they couldn't leave without incurring Zeus' wrath, and made it infinitely worse for him by having a blatant and unapologetic affair with one of his main abusers who then used the fact he was sleeping with Hephaestus' wife as yet another avenue to torment him

Just how bad Aphrodite's actions are depend a lot on what she does next, if she maintains her relationship with Ares despite his condition and Heph's new position then she was at least partially acting out of genuine feelings, in which case I would heavily question her taste in men but would somewhat lessen how bad what she did was, if she changes her tune at all then she was clearly just maintaining her affair with Ares specifically to hurt Hephaestus which makes it significantly worse

At this point let's just leave it, you clearly have your view on the whole affair and I have mine and neither of us are going to do anything to change the others mind

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So I have a few questions in response to this.

1. Why do you think that Hephaestus has any right to determine who exactly she sleeps with? Especially since their whole marriage was essentially forced upon Aphrodite at gunpoint?
2. Are you saying that just because their marriage was loveless that Aphrodite should have been forced to keep it that way? That she should have been made a victim to that marriage and forced to only have unhappiness in her personal life
3. Are you blaming Aphrodite for deciding to actually have relationships with men she chose instead of a man she never wanted?
4. Do you think their marriage was anything but a marriage in name only?
5. Do you feel like Hephaestus had a right to the body and love of a woman who never wanted and never genuinely consented due to the originator being the threat of force and violence?

 

[Vaermina]

Come on. Can you see where I'm coming from?

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Yup.

But you have to understand, that's what Mr Zoat does, he lowers the power and skill of the antagonists, while raising the power and skill of his protagonists so the protagonists don't just win, but easily win.

Does that make for an interesting story? Not really. But at this point it's what we get.

 

[Assblaster5000]

So watched the latest S4 episode, and it looks like Grayven just showed up. And he is purple with grey hair. Which I totally would not have recognized without this fic.

What is the current status of the League? Did they do any reforms after Paul's report a couple years back?

Is Batman still chairman? In YJ S1+2 canon it was rotating, and I don't think we have observed that. Although I guess we haven't seen much of the inner working of the League except for OL's "exercise" since Nabu.

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IIRC they're working on some of the stuff that Paul mentioned to them, but things like needing a unanimous vote to approve someone joining The League were still in-effect. I'm not really sure about the chairman thing though, honestly can't remember if that was ever even established as a thing in WTR.

 

[Michael Vonica]

At the end of the day anyone who says they wouldn't be mad when they learn that their partner cheated on them with one of their abusers even if they claimed it was for "true love", which by the way if that's true then Aphrodite will have no problem marrying the now castrated Ares once her divorce is finalised, is lying or a very strange person

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Were I to be in such a situation as this, no, I don't think I would be mad. At least, I wouldn't want to be. Regardless of what anyone else says, who I decide my partner is is something for me to decide on with said partner. Obviously in this scenario, Aphrodite isn't interested. So, she isn't isn't a partner. She is just the person I would have to depend on in order to avoid any punishment from Zeus. As long as she keeps up her part of that incredibly small deal, she could do whatever she wanted, and I would not care. I would expect the same freedom for myself.

And in the case of her acting in a way that would negatively affect me, who am I to judge her? It would simply be a consequence of her doing what she wants, same as anything anyone does. I would feel free to take any actions I wanted to as well, only considering how practical they are. And if I wanted to prevent or stop her from doing things that would negatively affect me? Then it's up to me to reach a mutual understanding with her on such a matter, or to provide the necessary incentives or deterrents, or to take the actions necessary to change the situation from what it is to how I want it to be.

Of course, none of this matters, because I'm from a completely different culture and background, and I'm not Hephaestus.

 

[jonasquinn]

1. Why do you think that Hephaestus has any right to determine who exactly she sleeps with? Especially since their whole marriage was essentially forced upon Aphrodite at gunpoint?

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Nobody is saying that he has the right to decide it for her but he does have the right to feel mad when his wife constantly sleeps with his tormentor. As far as I'm aware Hephaestus has never expressed anger at Aphrodite because she isn't having sex with him but because she's having sex with the person with which it would make his life the most difficult

2. Are you saying that just because their marriage was loveless that Aphrodite should have been forced to keep it that way? That she should have been made a victim to that marriage and forced to only have unhappiness in her personal life

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I mean Hephaestus did, at the very least she could have chosen anyone or done it in any way other than who and how she did the same way that there were thousands of things Hephaestus could have done to make her life worse but didn't because he's the bigger person

3. Are you blaming Aphrodite for deciding to actually have relationships with men she chose instead of a man she never wanted?

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Roughly the same as my above point

She is free to make those decisions but Hephaestus is free to be mad about those decisions because of how difficult they made his life

4. Do you think their marriage was anything but a marriage in name only?

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No but that's not Hephaestus' fault and Aphrodite still went out of her way to make his life worse

5. Do you feel like Hephaestus had a right to the body and love of a woman who never wanted and never genuinely consented due to the originator being the threat of force and violence?

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No but he never claimed to

Does that make for an interesting story? Not really. But at this point it's what we get.

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… why are you here? You spend an awful lot of time reading and engaging with a story that you seem to hate

Were I to be in such a situation as this, no, I don't think I would be mad. At least, I wouldn't want to be. Regardless of what anyone else says, who I decide my partner is is something for me to decide on with said partner. Obviously in this scenario, Aphrodite isn't interested. So, she isn't isn't a partner. She is just the person I would have to depend on in order to avoid any punishment from Zeus. As long as she keeps up her part of that incredibly small deal, she could do whatever she wanted, and I would not care. I would expect the same freedom for myself.

And in the case of her acting in a way that would negatively affect me, who am I to judge her? It would simply be a consequence of her doing what she wants, same as anything anyone does. I would feel free to take any actions I wanted to as well, only considering how practical they are. And if I wanted to prevent or stop her from doing things that would negatively affect me? Then it's up to me to reach a mutual understanding with her on such a matter, or to provide the necessary incentives or deterrents, or to take the actions necessary to change the situation from what it is to how I want it to be.

Of course, none of this matters, because I'm from a completely different culture and background, and I'm not Hephaestus.

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So basically what you're saying is that all of the responsibility falls on Hephaestus and it's completely fine for Aphrodite to actively make the person who has also been forced into this marriage's life miserable?

 

[Michael Vonica]

So basically what you're saying is that all of the responsibility falls on Hephaestus and it's completely fine for Aphrodite to actively make the person who has also been forced into this marriage's life miserable?

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Yes.

 

[Patrick Holt]

Marital rape and forced marriages are immoral. Just because it was done in the past doesn't mean it wasn't fucked up. I mean, children today are still married to much older individuals, and some cultures consider that okay, yet that doesn't change the fact that it's fucked up.

Women being forced into relationships they don't want to be in is immoral. If you disagree then I think we see the world so differently we can't come to agreement. And that's the core of Hephaestus and Aphrodite's entire sham of a marriage.

Are you saying that it's okay to force a woman into a relationship and punish her if she wants to leave or doesn't give the man she was forced to be with love and her body? Yes or no?

Because it seems like you're essentially saying that Aphrodite should be punished because she did exactly that.

And castrating Ares for sleeping with a woman only with Hephaestus because she was forced into it under pain of smiting makes Hephaestus a monster

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Ok, last try at this than I am done.

You obviously did not read the link I put up so let me break down how Aphrodite got married.

Hephaestus was angry with his mother so he sent a cursed throne to Olympus. Hara sat in the throne and was stuck. Zeus, and I quote
"Zeus sought the assistance of the gods in the freeing his Queen and offered the goddess Aphrodite in marriage to the god who could bring Hephaistos to Olympos. Aphrodite agreed to the arrangment in the belief that her beloved Ares would prevail." Emphasis mine.

So no she was not forced into this marriage she agreed to the terms of the arrangement herself. Ares failed and Hephaestus came to win Aphrodite himself.

"Dionysos next approached the god, and suggested that he might claim Aphrodite for himself if he were to release his mother willingly. Hephaistos was pleased with the plan and ascended to Heaven with Dionysos, released his mother and wed the reluctant Love-Goddess."

Now it does say she is reluctant, in modern age she could be allowed to break a promise and go back on her word, but in those days a man's honor was more important than what a daughter wanted

Other translations, other poets change how willing she was, but we are talking about a fictional story that got turned into a fictional superhero book so we are so far from stable ground its not worth fighting over.

Can we agree that at the time in Greece it was seen as a legitimate wedding and move on?

Now as to your next point that she was forced to love Hephaestus, she was the one who instigated the congress with her husband.

"Venus [Aphrodite] . . . spoke to her husband, Volcanos [Hephaistos], as they lay in their golden bed-chamber, breathing into the words all her divine allurement [persuading him to forge armour for her son Aeneas in Latium] . . . Since Volcanos [Hephaistos] complied not at once, the goddess softly embraced him in snowdrift arms, caressing him here and there. Of a sudden he caught the familiar spark and felt the old warmth darting into his marrow, coursing right though his body, melting him; just as it often happens a thunderclap starts a flaming rent which ladders the dark cloud, a quivering streak of fire. Pleased with her wiles and aware of her beauty, Venus [Aphrodite] could feel them taking effect. Volcanus [Hephaistos], in love's undying thrall [conceded to her requests] . . . Thus saying, he gave his wife the love he was aching to give her; then he sank into soothing sleep, relaxed upon her breast."

She is doing it to get him to make something for her, but she is choosing to use her "wiles." He is not forcing himself on her.

You keep crying that Zeus is awesome because of all the stories of him beating all these monsters, but you ignore the stories that show Hephaestus was not taking advantage of anyone. He was following the laws and culture of that time. Heck the original stories seem to show that they do get divorced and Aphrodite becomes Ares consort not his wife.

 

[Michael Vonica]

Ok, last try at this than I am done.

You obviously did not read the link I put up so let me break down how Aphrodite got married.

Hephaestus was angry with his mother so he sent a cursed throne to Olympus. Hara sat in the throne and was stuck. Zeus, and I quote
"Zeus sought the assistance of the gods in the freeing his Queen and offered the goddess Aphrodite in marriage to the god who could bring Hephaistos to Olympos. Aphrodite agreed to the arrangment in the belief that her beloved Ares would prevail." Emphasis mine.

So no she was not forced into this marriage she agreed to the terms of the arrangement herself. Ares failed and Hephaestus came to win Aphrodite himself.

"Dionysos next approached the god, and suggested that he might claim Aphrodite for himself if he were to release his mother willingly. Hephaistos was pleased with the plan and ascended to Heaven with Dionysos, released his mother and wed the reluctant Love-Goddess."

Now it does say she is reluctant, in modern age she could be allowed to break a promise and go back on her word, but in those days a man's honor was more important than what a daughter wanted

Other translations, other poets change how willing she was, but we are talking about a fictional story that got turned into a fictional superhero book so we are so far from stable ground its not worth fighting over.

Can we agree that at the time in Greece it was seen as a legitimate wedding and move on?

Now as to your next point that she was forced to love Hephaestus, she was the one who instigated the congress with her husband.

"Venus [Aphrodite] . . . spoke to her husband, Volcanos [Hephaistos], as they lay in their golden bed-chamber, breathing into the words all her divine allurement [persuading him to forge armour for her son Aeneas in Latium] . . . Since Volcanos [Hephaistos] complied not at once, the goddess softly embraced him in snowdrift arms, caressing him here and there. Of a sudden he caught the familiar spark and felt the old warmth darting into his marrow, coursing right though his body, melting him; just as it often happens a thunderclap starts a flaming rent which ladders the dark cloud, a quivering streak of fire. Pleased with her wiles and aware of her beauty, Venus [Aphrodite] could feel them taking effect. Volcanus [Hephaistos], in love's undying thrall [conceded to her requests] . . . Thus saying, he gave his wife the love he was aching to give her; then he sank into soothing sleep, relaxed upon her breast."

She is doing it to get him to make something for her, but she is choosing to use her "wiles." He is not forcing himself on her.

You keep crying that Zeus is awesome because of all the stories of him beating all these monsters, but you ignore the stories that show Hephaestus was not taking advantage of anyone. He was following the laws and culture of that time. Heck the original stories seem to show that they do get divorced and Aphrodite becomes Ares consort not his wife.

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Going off of this, sounds like Heph was a fairly willing participant in this whole situation, and he just didn't like Ares being part of that situation. So in that case, I count him crippling Ares to just be a case of Heph doing what he wants, even if what he wants in this case is pretty immoral.

 

[jonasquinn]

Going off of this, sounds like Heph was a fairly willing participant in this whole situation, and he just didn't like Ares being part of that situation. So in that case, I count him crippling Ares to just be a case of Heph doing what he wants, even if what he wants in this case is pretty immoral.

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Even if we take that version of the story as canon your interpretation still ignores that Aphrodite was also a willing participant, made Hephaestus fall in love with her and then cheated on him continuously

It's almost identical to the Zeus and Hera dynamic and yet we all agree that Zeus is in the wrong there

 

[Michael Vonica]

Even if we take that version of the story as canon your interpretation still ignores that Aphrodite was also a willing participant, made Hephaestus fall in love with her and then cheated on him continuously

It's almost identical to the Zeus and Hera dynamic and yet we all agree that Zeus is in the wrong there

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Unless Heph is very dumb or oblivious, he knows what Aphrodite is doing, even if she is really good at doing it. He still wants what he's getting anyway. He just wants more than that.

 

[Lord Ernest]

I'm not sure why there's a need to defend the well-being of Ares, one of the worst Greek gods in terms of character, not only from the myths but also from DC comics in general. Abuse is subjective, I believe, and if Heph feels that Ares has hurt him enough to justify this punishment, well, he's the boss now! Is it similar to what Zeus did? I personally wouldn't equate it really, because I don't see where any of Zeus' punishment victims could have make him suffer the same level of abuse, humiliation or emotional wounds that Heph did. And if you personally think it's still the same, ok, but the victim is still freaking Ares! Who defends Ares? Where does he earn this level of sympathy? The punishment might be biased but I still think Ares deserves even worse! (Not that the rest of Greek gods are a lot better, but the standard is pretty low and still Ares manages to not pass it by digging even deeper!).

In respect to the fight, I think it was just a witness' account of a metaphorical and conceptual clash, really. From the moment the Illustres got to Olympus he started seeing things and noticing that they were representations of concepts more than actual physical things. Maybe in the real world it would have been a more dynamic fight, but I was expecting a short sweet thing just by precedent from this fic. Heph's sealed armor, his mecha-limbs, his hammer, they were all representations of technology's accomplishments, potential and the might it provides to overcome and take control of almost anything in nature. That's why technology was emerging as a Titan, in my opinion. That thing with the hammer, for example, anything can be used as a weapon or to inflict harm but things by nature have a general concept for their use. If you see a xiphos (ancient greek sword) you see a weapon of battle and war, but if you see a forging hammer, well you can use it to smash somebody but its nature and primal concept is not as a weapon and to me that determines who has "primary authority".

With all my ramblings said, at the end of the day this is a story. If you didn't like how it was presented or if you don't like that a character you like got dunked, then that's too bad. You can express the dislike or criticism and move on. Why is there always a need to fight so much about it?

 

[jonasquinn]

Unless Heph is very dumb or oblivious, he knows what Aphrodite is doing, even if she is really good at doing it. He still wants what he's getting anyway. He just wants more than that.

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And now you're victim blaming

In that story Aphrodite literally mindfucks Hephaestus into falling so deeply in love with her that he does whatever the fuck she asks and then continues to cheat on him and treat him like shit, arguing that he should have known she was doing that doesn't change what she's doing or that he was suddenly deeply in love with her

 

[Michael Vonica]

And now you're victim blaming

In that story Aphrodite literally mindfucks Hephaestus into falling so deeply in love with her that he does whatever the fuck she asks and then continues to cheat on him and treat him like shit, arguing that he should have known she was doing that doesn't change what she's doing or that he was suddenly deeply in love with her

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I disagree with your interpretation of the story. She used powers on him, yes, but Heph isn't helpless. He knows what she did, and even though it influenced him, a good part of him still wants her. And if he really is trapped completely against his will? All I have to say is that it is an unfortunate situation for him. Should he ever manage to free himself, I'd say that there is nothing wrong with him getting some sort of revenge, if that was what he wanted. Also nothing wrong with putting the whole thing behind him and moving on. Just a reminder that all things have a cost, and he should be wary of trying to get something he can't afford. Also extra wary of any sneaky fees he may not have considered.

 

[Cuchulin]

In defense of Ares? Aphrodite also slept with Hermes and had a rather well known child by him.

1. Why would Aphrodite owe Hephaestus anything? She was a victim forced into a relationship she never wanted. Or are you saying that women forced into marriages under the threat of physical force should be made to try to make it work? Come on.
2. What you're doing with Zeus is whataboutism. It is irrelevant that all of them had shitty marriages, nor does it make the way Hephaestus is and has acted cool, or make it suddenly all okay regarding what Zeus did/
3. No worries. I get how things get missed in the chapter.
4. Again, we know that Zeus has more than raw might because it says so in the Theogony, one of the keystone elements in Greek mythology. On top of everything else I mentioned. See here.

5. Aphrodite was never Hephaestus's partner. She was a hostage. He has no right to feel pissy that she didn't jump feet first into a marriage that she was threatened to make, not allowed to leave, and never wanted to be in to begin with. And if he does that speaks volumes about the kind of person he was.

If he wanted to have sole ownership over Aphrodite's body and love when it came to a relationship she was forced into, that's fucked up. And if he's throwing a tantrum and doing shit like castrating people for being the person that Aphrodite choose instead of him, that's fucked up.

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Firstly you can't use 20th century morality as a standard for stories that are over 2,000 years old.
Second, I'm pretty sure that Aphrodite went along with the marriage because it was the least bad option and Hephaestus made a good case for choosing him.
Third, laws are not really about morality because that is so hard to agree on and making the law about morality tends to end badly.
Fourth, she was married to Hephaestus BY HER PEOPLES LAWS AND CUSTOMS. Which she clearly violated by sleeping around, fair or unfair by modern western standards got nothing to do with it.
Fifth. Ares (especially in DC) is a bully and generally just a pretty horrible person.

 

[Radix]

IIRC they're working on some of the stuff that Paul mentioned to them, but things like needing a unanimous vote to approve someone joining The League were still in-effect. I'm not really sure about the chairman thing though, honestly can't remember if that was ever even established as a thing in WTR.

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Actually I believe they axed the unanimous vote since Paul was about to be extended an invite back in 2011 right before he assasinated Nabu. It was mentioned that Nabu would vote against Paul due to his allegiance to chaos via Eris and Constantine.

I expect that organization of heroes might actually make the reorganization for them to a degree. Eventually evolving into a partner for the League to train up heroes to hit the big League. Or at least they would have local affiliates based on the region. They may eventually move to a committee of sorts as the size grows just to help woth management.

Chairman has always been unclear. Batman either way would likely stay as point for assigning missions due to his experience with both training heroes and stealth missions. Which fits with his current portrayal since Nabu died. And Paul respects him so would report to him anyways. We dont rrally see how the League operates.

 

[jonasquinn]

She used powers on him, yes, but Heph isn't helpless. He knows what she did, and even though it influenced him, a good part of him still wants her.

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That's like saying it's okay to drug someone if that person knows you have drugs and is attracted to you

Plus any decision Hephaestus made after she used her magic on him is extremely circumspect at best because he was under the effect of her magic

And if he really is trapped completely against his will?

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I mean Zeus is kinda enforcing the marriage

Just a reminder that all things have a cost, and he should be wary of trying to get something he can't afford. Also extra wary of any sneaky fees he may not have considered.

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… your wife being a cheater who doesn't care that she makes your life significantly worse is not a price people should have to consider

 

[AR760]

In defense of Ares? Aphrodite also slept with Hermes and had a rather well known child by him.



Firstly you can't use 20th century morality as a standard for stories that are over 2,000 years old.
Second, I'm pretty sure that Aphrodite went along with the marriage because it was the least bad option and Hephaestus made a good case for choosing him.
Third, laws are not really about morality because that is so hard to agree on and making the law about morality tends to end badly.
Fourth, she was married to Hephaestus BY HER PEOPLES LAWS AND CUSTOMS. Which she clearly violated by sleeping around, fair or unfair by modern western standards got nothing to do with it.
Fifth. Ares (especially in DC) is a bully and generally just a pretty horrible person.

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"If it was? Have you seen my leg? Do you know what he said when I dragged Ares and Aphrodite before him in a net?"

"I've only ever heard an outline."

"'We weren't actually expecting her to be faithful to you. I made her marry you so no one else would fight over her.'" Something occurs to him. "And if I was strong enough to beat Zeus, I'd be strong enough to beat Ares, wouldn't I?"

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Patrick Holt
jonasquinn

Nope. The story itself directly opposes everyone saying shit like Aphrodite ensnared Hephaestus. Zeus only married her to him so everyone would stop fighting over her. So all of these points everyone is trying to make doesn't make any sense.

Aphrodite was forced into the marriage so everyone would stop fighting over her. But she was forced into it by Zeus. And when they tried to get the divorce petition through, this was the result.

"Zeus said 'no' to the divorce petition, then?"

"I think there was a 'no' somewhere in between all the guffaws. It was hard to tell."

"Sorry about that."

"I'm used to it."

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So all of the shit I've been saying about how Aphrodite was forced to marry Hephaestus was true, and all of this bullshit about her forcing him into it has nothing to do with the story according to the text. Meaning all the arguments related to it are categorically incorrect.

Nice try though, but it looks like Aphrodite is still the victim forced into a marriage she didn't want here just to keep people from fighting over her.

Maybe try to double check shit before trying to paint me as being foolish or incorrect to make sure there isn't something which entirely goes against the point you're trying to argue.

And I'm commenting about the stories about Zeus being insanely strong and even skilled as only part of the larger point being made and argument presented because nothing in the story has directly opposed the source material in those areas from what I've seen.

DC Comics usually has Greek Mythology mostly align with the real thing too, which also lends it weight until directly contradicted by in story text.

 

[Michael Vonica]

That's like saying it's okay to drug someone if that person knows you have drugs and is attracted to you

Plus any decision Hephaestus made after she used her magic on him is extremely circumspect at

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No, what I'm saying that is if someone were to be drugged against their will like that and wake up the next morning, and decide to do nothing about it despite knowingly having been drugged, their behavior is because of more than just the drugs.

… your wife being a cheater who doesn't care that she makes your life significantly worse is not a price people should have to consider

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In the story, he wanted Aphrodite to be his wife. He took actions to make it so, despite her not wanting him. Because he did nothing to resolve the situation of her not wanting him, she did what she wanted and cheated. Just because he never considered that that would be the result of what he did does not mean that he didn't agree to pay that price for his actions when he took them, with his agreement coming in the form of him taking the actions themselves. It's not like he couldn't have known Aphrodite could cheat on him, and had little discouraging her from doing so.

Edit: I guess that I should add that I believe that when someone takes an action in order to achieve a result, and doesn't take additional actions to prevent those results they do not want, or allows for any sort of risk at all, they are accepting the possibility of those bad results happening, even if they don't want them to, or didn't consider them. So, unless they truly lacked any ability at all to prevent something, they don't have my sympathy.