(Partially) fixing the tag system

[Sinker_91]

I assume merging the tags within the site would eliminate them from stories using them or replace them with the merged version? Preferably the latter obviously

 

[dasstan]

{kind of a self insert - kind of a self inser - kind off self insert - self insert (I guess?) - self-insert-kinda - sorta self insert - self(?) insert - semi si - semi-si - si is kinda oc - si sorta - si? - sort of si - sorta si thing - non self insert - insert not self - non-self insert - self insert oc - oc/si - oc-si - si oc - si-oc - si/oc - si is an oc - si is basically an oc - si is not an si} si/oc

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I propose this be changed to original character insert.

 

[Sam I Am]

o3 tagging is bad because you'll search some semi niche ship with 60 or so works and occasionally enough 25 of those works will be over tagged one shot collections with only 1 chapter published that was abandoned years ago. wow so this story with 30+ different ship tags is actually just a singular one shot about exactly 1 of those ships.

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OH MY GOD, THISSSS!

It's so fucking frustrating to be looking for something specific, and you'll just be inundated by one-shot collections. I hate oneshots for this specifc reason, straight-up.

I have no idea what most of those words mean, never heard of the E621 thing either, why not just leave a gay or lesbian and keep it simple?

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E621 is a furry image aggregator, Furaffinity is the main den of sin for the furry fandom and includes images, videos, and stories, danbooru and gelbooru are anime/hentai image aggregators, and R34 is a general purpose spankbank full of all of the above and other things.

 

[Valthorix]

I propose this be changed to original character insert.

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Space is already at a premium on that part of the page and changing two characters to... 25 is not a great idea.

 

[dasstan]

Space is already at a premium on that part of the page and changing two characters to... 25 is not a great idea.

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OC insert, then. If the character being inserted is based on the author, then it's a self insert. If the character being inserted is not based on the author and isn't from an existing property, it's an OC insert.

 

[SaberSavior]

I propose this be changed to original character insert.

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No I dont think that would work there is a difference between a character self inserting into a canon character or making a new original character

 

[EllaWolf]

I am basically adding a bit more input into this as I am doing my usual reading activities but how about merging all the stream tags? (livestream - livestreaming - streamer - stream -stream fic -etc.)

since outside of the livestream tag all the stories in this niche are kinda all over the place

 

[JadeKaiser]

I'm curious on how you may plan to implement this? Would you ask mods to go through and change the tags already there or the authors?

Or will this be a more "going forward do this" type of deal? I would add some but most others already had my ideas such as just Anti-NTR or all the game of thrones stuff.

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I assume merging the tags within the site would eliminate them from stories using them or replace them with the merged version? Preferably the latter obviously

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I believe the intent is to do as Ultima has already done with a few specific tags semi-recently, which merges the tags functionally for searching but leaves them all extant.

Basically, you start with say, "HI3rd," "Honkai Impact," "Honkai Impact Third," "Honkai Impact 3rd," etc. The merger takes all of those and merges them into the 'parent' tag, "Honkai Impact 3rd." Now, all the previous tags still exist, but searching or filtering for any of them will return the same results, with everything that has any one (or more) of them, under the search or filter "Honkai Impact 3rd."

EDIT: To clarify before someone asks, my examples aren't included in the original list because the HI3rd fandom tags were one of those groups that was already done by Ultima.

 

[Slickji]

I propose this be changed to original character insert.

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OC-I is not SI

OC-I is when you invent an OC and then insert them instead of yourself. These fics for the most part should be tagged SI tbh, but occasionally you'll get oc-i whoses background is believable enough but has too odd and very unique implications for how they end adapting to the setting to be the actual author.

edit

what I'm saying is that even though usually whether a fic is oc-i or si does not matter there is more than a fair few oc-i fics with an oc that's different enough from the author to be unmistakably an oc while not being so bizarre you doubt the oc could have actually existed on earth.

 

[VincentFS]

The famous Ao3 problem. I've seen Avatar: The Last Airbender, Avatar the Last Airbender, ATLA, etc…

Also, Zelda has this problem too. Just not as egregious.

 

[Infonticus]

I'm curious on how you may plan to implement this?

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This is my concern too. Sure, in the backend, my guess is slapping in a junction table somewhere in the db or something.
But what about the practical implications?

In the case of...

{cross-over - cross over - crossover} crossover

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I assume people will try to enter "cross over" and have it automatically converted to "crossover" instead. But what about the people who try to circumvent this? Who would go out of their way to tag "X-over" or "xover" or whatever else?

I know it's been mention that

nor do we want to implement any kind of enforced tagging

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So, I assume the readers WON'T have the ability to report what they feel like is incorrect tagging, and the mods will just play whack-a-mole including user-generated tags for all eternity like some db admin Sisyphus?

 

[dasstan]

So, I assume the readers WON'T have the ability to report what they feel like is incorrect tagging, and the mods will just play whack-a-mole including user-generated tags for all eternity like some db admin Sisyphus?

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Maybe once they get the aliases and general tag maintenance done, they'll freeze new tag creation and implement an approval process for new tags?

 

[edk]

It's probably already been said but I see a lot of people complain about AU and canon tags. Just off those alone you have the canon, non-canon compliant, AU, etc. which makes me wonder: is there a difference between AU and non-canon? Couldn't those be merged?

 

[FTR2017]

{kind of a self insert - kind of a self inser - kind off self insert - self insert (I guess?) - self-insert-kinda - sorta self insert - self(?) insert - semi si - semi-si - si is kinda oc - si sorta - si? - sort of si - sorta si thing - non self insert - insert not self - non-self insert - self insert oc - oc/si - oc-si - si oc - si-oc - si/oc - si is an oc - si is basically an oc - si is not an si} si/oc

{self inserts - self-inserts (plural) - multi-self-insert - lots of self inserts - mass self insert} multiple self-inserts

{Self-insert mc - selfinsert - si - si mc - si protagonist - self insert} self-insert

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I believe all of these could be put under the umbrella si/oc, as they're basically the same thing.

 

[VincentFS]

It's probably already been said but I see a lot of people complain about AU and canon tags. Just off those alone you have the canon, non-canon compliant, AU, etc. which makes me wonder: is there a difference between AU and non-canon? Couldn't those be merged?

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Yea, very easily.

 

[hrepdrep]

I believe all of these could be put under the umbrella si/oc, as they're basically the same thing.

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Not the first one and the last one, as (from what I understand) the first is a SI entering a world as their own character (think an OC student going to Hogwarts) while the third is a SI entering the world as a pre-existing character (think a SI taking over Ron Weasley)

 

[Sam I Am]

s there a difference between AU and non-canon? Couldn't those be merged?

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I think the reason people tag something with non-canon, as opposed to AU, is for SI/OC/OC-I stories. An SI gets sent to the canon storyline and affects it, thus making it not canon, where as an AU is a story that differes immediately, without outer input by an SI or some such.

I can't really articulate the thoughts, but it has something to do with a character making the canon timeline into a non-canon one, whereas an AU has the AU at the start or something. IDK, I can't adequately describe what I'm thinking of.

 

[FTR2017]

Not the first one and the last one, as (from what I understand) the first is a SI entering a world as their own character (think an OC student going to Hogwarts) while the third is a SI entering the world as a pre-existing character (think an OC taking over Ron Weasley)

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Lmao, I really forgot about the types of si/ocs around. I do admit though, that skinwalker oc/si are creepy as all hell, I much prefer them being their own persons or at best relatives of the canon characters over supplanting them.

Edit: I still believe turning that tag collection to oc/si should suffice, as either way it's an insert.

 

[SpatialGaming]

The various general Star Trek tags should probably be merged, as well as the tags for Star Wars and 2004 Battlestar Galactica.

 

[Infonticus]

Maybe once they get the aliases and general tag maintenance done, they'll freeze new tag creation and implement an approval process for new tags?

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Wouldn't work. They'll have to approve tags every time a new IP/Fandom comes out, and "Ain't nobody got time for that!"

How can an author wait the few days it'll take for their tag for "I got reincarnated as my mother's crotchless panties in another world!" to get approved by a mod before they can post their 300 word per chapter self-insert story?

But at least, the future "Official Tag/Alias Discussion" Thread would help contain all those arguments that often go nowhere.

 

[Igolnik]

While I like the idea of fixing the tag situation, I don't think this change will do much. This will either do nothing and not fix the problem of tags not being useful at their job (allowing a user to easily show or hide every single story that meets a specific criteria) because this will likely be a one and done type of affair where you go through and consolidate a few of the more egregious examples of having 30+ tags meaning the same thing, then letting it decay and degrade over time, or it'll lock the moderators into having to manually look through every new story and add every new and unintentionally or intentionally fucked up tag variant created by authors until the end of time.

I don't know how feasible this would be, but I think moving away from freeform tags almost entirely would be the correct option. Have some method of choosing standardized tags, whether it be by community vote or just having a moderator decide, then implement a community tagging feature like in boorus where readers can apply tags to stories themselves. This would fix the biggest issue of the current tagging system, which is that half of the authors on this site don't even bother to use tags at all.

 

[Silencian]

Mind Control has several variations of the tag. Similarly the tag Brain Washing has many variants.

 

[edk]

I can't really articulate the thoughts, but it has something to do with a character making the canon timeline into a non-canon one, whereas an AU has the AU at the start or something. IDK, I can't adequately describe what I'm thinking of.

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Yeah, putting the thoughts to paper is hard. Honestly, I don't understand the differences at all. To me, all fanfiction that isn't a script story (one that follows every detail without significant deviation) is an alternate universe since it can't be canon.

At least what you wrote makes more sense than what I usually see, even if my brain still thinks it's a weird split.

 

[MagnificentMind]

So, complaints about the tag system are a recurring topic on QQ. This is sometimes just an issue of different site cultures, but other times it's non-controversially fixable.

Tags on QQ have a few uses, including setting expectations for the thread, aiding search, and making jokes. We don't want to sacrifice either of the other two (or any other unlisted uses) in service of optimising search results, nor do we want to implement any kind of enforced tagging (for reasons stated in detail over the years, in many threads). But the low-hanging fruit here are misspellings, grammatical mistakes, and duplicates.

There's only benefits to merging those into one Canonised tag, for authors and readers. The former have limited tag space, the latter likely doesn't want to have to put in a dozen variations of the same things, and finding all those variations through the normal user view is difficult or impossible anyway.

I'm not sure whether this would ever get done if I don't take the initiative, so that's what I'm doing. The basic guidelines for how this is going to work is as follows:

• Canonised tag suggestions, alongside potential Synonyms to be merged, will be posted in this thread first, pinned in the Suggestions & Bugs subforum, so the userbase has an opportunity (say, 48 hours) to give feedback and object to particular mergers.
• Only search relevant terms will be merged, not every tag that has duplicate meanings.
• Tags that could be interpreted to have distinct meanings will not be merged.
• Series tags will be the full name.
• Descriptor tags will be fully spelled out.
• Finalised Canonised tags will be added into the locked Suggested Tags threads (1, 2), which will be pinned in the Creative Writing and NSFW Creative Writing subforums.

I've already gathered 195 tags, that I think can be condensed into 35:

Spoiler

{worm - worm fic} worm

{heroic mc - heroic protagonist - hero - hero mc} heroic protagonist

{anti-hero - anti-hero protagonist - antihero} anti-hero protagonist

{my hero academia - my_hero_academia - boku no hero academia - my boku academia} my hero academia

{rise of the sheild hero - rising of the shield hero - shield hero} the rising of the shield hero

{superhero - super hero} superhero

{superheroes - superheros - super heroes} superheroes

{eventual harem - harem eventually - harem eventual - eventual obligatory harem - harem… eventually} harem eventually

{harem likely - harem (most likely) - harem probably - probable harem - probably a harem? - probably harem} harem likely

{harem possible - possible harem - potential harem - harem maybe - maybe harem? - harem? - will a harem be created?} harem possible

{harem - harem obviously - harem (obviously for anyone who knows my works) - harem (obviously its danmachi) - harem galore - harem mode activate! - harem get!} harem

{harem hero - harem protagonist} harem protagonist

{no harem - not a harem - #no harem - this is a no harem zone} no harem

{reversed harem - reverse harem} reverse harem

{small harem - slight harem - not that big of a harem - minor harem - eventual small harem} small harem

{large harem - big harem} large harem

{yuri harem - lesbian harem} lesbian harem

{mc is in a harem - mc is a harem member - in a harem} mc is a harem member

{asoiaf - a song of ice and fire - a song of ice & fire - song of ice and fire} a song of ice and fire

{futa - futanari} futanari

{futa protagonist - futa mc - futanari mc} futanari protagonist

{multi crossover - multi-crossover - multicross - lots of crossovers - many crossovers - massive multicross - mutlicross - massive multicross etc - multi-cross - multi-crossover (crossover) - multicross - multicrossover - multiple crossovers} multicross

{noncon - non-con} non-con

{cross-over - cross over - crossover} crossover

{mild crossover - minor crossover} minor crossover

{alternate au - au - au content warning - au for various reasons - au obviously - au(obviously) - #alternateworld - alt universe - alt verse - alternate - alternate universe - alternateuniverse- alternative universe} alternate universe

{extreme au - drastically au - heavy au - major au - massive au - au as fuck - au a lot of au - all the au - really quite a lot of au - super au - very au - very very au - wildly au} major au

{mild au - minor au - kinda au - kind of au - contains au elements - au-elements - au elements - au kinda - au in only very minor ways - slight au - slight au elements - slightly au - some au - somewhat au - somewhatau} minor au

{bi protagonist - bi-protagonist - bisexual protagonist - bi mc - bisexual main character - bisexual mc} bisexual protagonist

{kind of a self insert - kind of a self inser - kind off self insert - self insert (I guess?) - self-insert-kinda - sorta self insert - self(?) insert - semi si - semi-si - si is kinda oc - si sorta - si? - sort of si - sorta si thing - non self insert - insert not self - non-self insert - self insert oc - oc/si - oc-si - si oc - si-oc - si/oc - si is an oc - si is basically an oc - si is not an si} si/oc

{self inserts - self-inserts (plural) - multi-self-insert - lots of self inserts - mass self insert} multiple self-inserts

{Self-insert mc - selfinsert - si - si mc - si protagonist - self insert} self-insert

{dxd - highschool dxd - high-school dxd - high school dxd} high school dxd

{genderbend - genderbender - gender bender - genderbent - gender-bender - gender-bending - genderbending - genderbending galore} genderbending

{gender bender mc - gender bending protagonist - gender flipped protagonist - gender swapped protag - genderbent mc - genderbent protagonist - genderbent!mc} genderbending protagonist

People will have 48 hours to provide feedback or object to anything being merged in the above list, or what the Canonised tag will be, and then I'll go ahead and do the merge. I'm interested in being somewhat overly-cautious here, so if there's any pushback on a tag being merged (or I have second thoughts), I'll probably just not.

In addition to the feedback on listed mergers, it's easier for me to find duplicate tags through the moderation view, so if you can suggest tags you're interested in, I can use that as a starting point to find potential mergers, or to fill up the Suggested Tags threads (which are currently empty).

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It's times like these that you get hit in the face by how dedicated the site and user base is to it's niche

 

[Vasstago]

{alternate au - au - au content warning - au for various reasons - au obviously - au(obviously) - #alternateworld - alt universe - alt verse - alternate - alternate universe - alternateuniverse- alternative universe} alternate universe

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I would suggest this to be just AU not Alternate Universe. The logic behind my suggestion is twofold. First [Fandom AU] tag at least for what I think it would work better to just be merged with [Fandom Overtag/Merged] for simplicity sake in the implementation. Secondly and in part because of my first point, if AU is treated as another tag then it should appear next to whatever Setting or Fandom is referring to and because the most important tag is the setting/fandom AU should be as shirt as possible to not bloat the tag section.

I am also curious if is possible taking a two tier umbrella approach like AU covering for Normal AU, Minor AU and major AU while they still being merger tags; because although neat to have the distinction the distinction doesn't have a strict frame work as far as I have seen to catalog one or the other and the AU tag can be either major or minor or normal and the author just will not bother in differentiating. In short highly subjective thus a two tier umbrella if implemented if not is just better to just have one merger tag and leave it as AU.

I would suggest that similarly take the same approach to all those of crossovers.

I think that this is better if the tags are going to let be shown as they currently are and just have a background merged tag online to search for all similar tags.

Although it seems that there is a wide breath of discussion and difference between the Yuri and Lesbian and similar sexual orientation tags, I would suggest to take the shorter possible version of a tag and thus Yuri and not Lesbian since for I think wider audiences is just the same. But I think that because of the over sexual nature and focus of the site this in specific should have a more wide discussion before considering it.

Since I am advocating for shorter tags, I should also state where I am not. That is when setting/fandom tags are concerned as thus the most distinctive version and possibly accurate version of a tag should be put forward. So no ASOIAF but A Song of Ice and Fire. Since I mentioned the setting, I think that Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and House of the Dragon tags should be umbrellaed in ASOIAF merger tag, because is more a matter of setting than particular series which in concordance WH30K and WH40K should fall into too, both under WH40K.

With this I think is good to also voice that I also think that some manner of this should be useful to implement:

Game of thrones, Got could be merged under A song of ice and fire. Hotd and house of the dragon might be possible as well. In the end, it's one universe but different timelines, and/or continuities.

Though a tag categorization/hierarchy Would help. Most of the time I think the authors just don't know what to use and just use random stuff. But a structure could focus them a bit.
> Fandom
>> Timeline
> Characters
>> Relationships (probably not required)
> Story type (si, oc, AU, dark, humor, crack, etc)
>> Story themes (heroic MC, villain Mc etc) (could be folded in with above )
> Author notes (No beta, Ai generated, Ai beta'd, Ai supported)
> Freeform (aka authors trying to be witty)

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Continuing the stream of thought. Separating Fandom with Timeline is useful in the case of WH30K and WH40K, and the other example I gave about ASOIAF.

But, I might be out of my depth, I think that could useful as data collection on which tags to merge if there is like a double layered approach to the tags system when tagging. Basically the tag which the author wants for the fic to show under when on search and the tag that the author wants the reader to read when seeing the fic banner. Like a fic under "Highschool DxD" but showing the tag as "The Titty-verse". You know if want to keep it witty still.

I don't think it would be implemented because seems a little too complex thus can break the code if it isn't design to handle that. But what I know?

 

[Silencian]

Yeah, putting the thoughts to paper is hard. Honestly, I don't understand the differences at all. To me, all fanfiction that isn't a script story (one that follows every detail without significant deviation) is an alternate universe since it can't be canon.

At least what you wrote makes more sense than what I usually see, even if my brain still thinks it's a weird split.

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Alternate Universe is used to describe a world that has been altered from Canon before the main character has had any effect on the story.

Examples would be certain characters being dead or alive at story start when they would have been the opposite in the canonical story. Additional factions / nations / major players existing. Major aspects of how the world functions such as magic existing or not, etc.

Fanfics may change the plot and world through character action in the course of the story, but if the world was effectively canon up until that moment, then it is not an Alternate Universe.

 

[FlyingWorms56]

Something I didn't see get brought up is how the already tagged stories going to be affected.

Is the tag changing automatic? Are Authors going to manually go through their old fics and change the tags one by one? If so what about authors who no longer use this site for one reason or another?

 

[Slickji]

I think the reason people tag something with non-canon, as opposed to AU, is for SI/OC/OC-I stories. An SI gets sent to the canon storyline and affects it, thus making it not canon, where as an AU is a story that differes immediately, without outer input by an SI or some such.

I can't really articulate the thoughts, but it has something to do with a character making the canon timeline into a non-canon one, whereas an AU has the AU at the start or something. IDK, I can't adequately describe what I'm thinking of.

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also take lets say a worm fic set in Boston yes Boston exists in canon but it's not a fully fleshed out location so the author will have to invent non canon elements bit it's not AU because canon does imply there is more in the city than it tells us. it's not canon not in the sense canon doesn't happen or that it's AU but because the story only ends up interacting with the edges of canon so you won't see any of the canon storyline play out.

 

[edk]

Alternate Universe is used to describe a world that has been altered from Canon before the main character has had any effect on the story.

Examples would be certain characters being dead or alive at story start when they would have been the opposite in the canonical story. Additional factions / nations / major players existing. Major aspects of how the world functions such as magic existing or not, etc.

Fanfics may change the plot and world through character action in the course of the story, but if the world was effectively canon up until that moment, then it is not an Alternate Universe.

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I see. Based on that, it seems my confusion was born more from the fact that I learned from people who didn't know what they were talking about and I trusted them to be right.

Either way, I'll still support the various Au, canon, and non-canon tags being merged. Even if it's three tags instead of two, there's a ton of "this doesn't follow canon" or "it's a totally different world" tags out there.

 

[Thiccc Shaedy]

To whoever decided to fix this issue... You, sir or madame, are doing the Lord's work. Sincerely, thank you!