Penalty for not disclosing ai work

[NInjakirito]

Oh my fucking god, why are so many people losing there minds over this? We've had this conversation a dozen times already and they never learn. AI generated fiction is not breaking the rules, it not even illegal and yet people insist on treating it like it is.

You don't need to like it, you don't need to support it, but you do need to stop restarting an arguement that has been made and answered many times. On the face of it policing AI-generated/edited works are impossible because it cannot be verified to be AI. AI has been around enough that even wholly original and human made works look like 'AI' because they learned to write after it became widespread and mimicked the popular style that many AI's used.

The mods really need to make a sticky banner in the S&B forum so these threads and arguements are constantly being repeated.

I don't even like AI, but this whole whiny 'AI BAD' with arguements that have already been made and answered is getting on my nerves.

 

[BronzePlaceWriter]

It's very much a problem for QQ, and for those actual writers. Your argument presumes that people won't just read less because they assume it's all slop, which is what anecdotally at least seems to be happening. It also assumes that the actual writers won't just be driven away from writing because there's no point when anything they do will be buried under the slop. Those people with writing as their only source of income had better look for a new one, because it's going away.

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Obviously, I am one person and my work doesn't speak for everyone, but the advent of Ai has actually made it so clients are less likely to trust new authors but more likely to trust older authors they already know. Talking to my clients, several have admitted that they now prioritise me over anyone else because they know and trust I don't use AI.

So in a sense, the advent of Ai is creating a two tier system. If you're already in, you're getting people rallying around you but if you're not, it's becoming harder to earn trust with clients. The tldr on this one is that I am not so sure if it's quite as simple as the income simply going away. It's a lot more complicated than just that and it depends on what specifically you do and how you network.

 

[FTR2017]

... You keep using the word "abortion". That word does not mean what you think it means, it's emotive rather than reasonable. No argument can come to a conclusion without reason.

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Sure, it is 'emotional'.

But, here's my retort:

It is a mangled corpse even when edited.

It is lacking in character as it is dead.

It shows no personality whatsoever, as it is dead.

It shows no care from the 'parent' to delegate to a virtual monkey with keyboard to string words along.

The only recognition they earn is by their lack of vitality.

Need I go on?

 

[Valthorix]

Sure, it is 'emotional'.

But, here's my retort:

It is a mangled corpse even when edited.

It is lacking in character as it is dead.

It shows no personality whatsoever, as it is dead.

It shows no care from the 'parent' to delegate to a virtual monkey with keyboard to string words along.

The only recognition they earn is by their lack of vitality.

Need I go on?

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This feels like it was written by ai tbh

 

[BronzePlaceWriter]

This feels like it was written by ai tbh

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Doesn't that make a good point for the thread as a whole, though? This was clearly and obviously not written by Ai, but if it still seems like it is to you, that's a false positive. The exact kind of thing a lot of us are worried about.

 

[Valthorix]

Doesn't that make a good point for the thread as a whole, though? This was clearly and obviously not written by Ai, but if it still seems like it is to you, that's a false positive. The exact kind of thing a lot of us are worried about.

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That's kinda why I made the post, beyond just wanting to annoy him. Everyone has their own definition of what AI writes like, and beyond a few common things like the em dash and 'its not x, it's y', there isn't really any way to tell definitively. Sure, gemini might write in a consistent way across various instances, but there isn't just one LLM out there. There's thousands. I personally have six installed on my computer, and they all write completely distinctly from one another. You simply can't say with certainty that something is written by an LLM because every single one of them has distinct training data that pulls from differing sources which produces different outputs.

 

[FTR2017]

That's kinda why I made the post, beyond just wanting to annoy him. Everyone has their own definition of what AI writes like, and beyond a few common things like the em dash and 'its not x, it's y', there isn't really any way to tell definitively. Sure, gemini might write in a consistent way across various instances, but there isn't just one LLM out there. There's thousands. I personally have six installed on my computer, and they all write completely distinctly from one another. You simply can't say with certainty that something is written by an LLM because every single one of them has distinct training data that pulls from differing sources which produces different outputs.

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And yet, the obvious signs that I mentioned you ignored.

Go ahead and enjoy your AI trash, I'll focus on human-sourced products.

If a human learns to write from AI? They deserve to be ignored, there's a reason why a foundation of readers is to read works from known and influential writers to learn from them first. As much as it is a hobby? It is also work, and knowing of culture and how people behave and react in order to write about them.

Doesn't that make a good point for the thread as a whole, though? This was clearly and obviously not written by Ai, but if it still seems like it is to you, that's a false positive. The exact kind of thing a lot of us are worried about.

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The man's a troll, I doubt an AI can write what I did.

 

[Valthorix]

And yet, the obvious signs that I mentioned you ignored.

Go ahead and enjoy your AI trash, I'll focus on human-sourced products.

If a human learns to write from AI? They deserve to be ignored, there's a reason why a foundation of readers is to read works from known and influential writers to learn from them first. As much as it is a hobby? It is also work, and knowing of culture and how people behave and react in order to write about them.

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Ok so you're just an anti-AI elitist then, glad to see you take the mask off.

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

People are understandably passionate about this topic, but bring the heat down a tad.

I don't think anyone has crossed the Rule 1 line yet, but a few posts are making me look twice, so let's work to prevent any further degeneration.

 

[ANGRY PUFFBALL]

The reason there are witch-hunts is because there are a whole pile of witches fucking us all over.

Let's be clear here, people who claim their writing isn't AI when it is, and use that to get donations? Those people are literal fraudsters breaking the law.

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As opposed to all the people on here running patreons and such to make money off of fanfics for IP they don't own? Those people don't even have the fig leaf that they aren't doing their copyright violations for money to hide behind.

 

[ForestDweller]

Obviously, I am one person and my work doesn't speak for everyone, but the advent of Ai has actually made it so clients are less likely to trust new authors but more likely to trust older authors they already know. Talking to my clients, several have admitted that they now prioritise me over anyone else because they know and trust I don't use AI.

So in a sense, the advent of Ai is creating a two tier system. If you're already in, you're getting people rallying around you but if you're not, it's becoming harder to earn trust with clients. The tldr on this one is that I am not so sure if it's quite as simple as the income simply going away. It's a lot more complicated than just that and it depends on what specifically you do and how you network.

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Essentially, art is going the way of designer shoes and clothes. There would always be people who will pay a high price for premium human made art for novelty or status symbol but for most people they'll be fine consuming cheap mass-produced art.

 

[protoss16]

Here is a good resource for helpful criticism of works that seem ai generated. https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...ise-works-that-might-be-ai-generated.1307253/

 

[Povovanon]

Never ever a thread where "I, Lolilover88, declare that NaruSaku13, Elfucker2000, Zardoz11, AdultWomanEnjoyer_xxx, MetalFatiguefan are using AI to write their stories. They are lying at the readers... LYING!"
Never ever a Mod appearing on a white stallion known as Princess, "Thanks Lolilover88 with your words and evidences. And you, you, disgusting sloppers, I sentence you to a lifetime of horror on Monster Island."

 

[CptTagon]

I'd be all for having a mandatory AI tag if it could be applied to AI 'content' only. Since there's no way to actually make that happen, sadly, I have to say I'm not in favor of mandatory tagging.

 

[Avernus]

Anecdotally, I also know soneone who stopped writing all together because of AI.

No, not because they were upset with how AI taking over everything or how they were being suppressed by slop.

They stopped writing because they got accused of using AI to write instead of doing it themselves.

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Which is one reason why "AI" is going to destroy writing and art as an institution if it isn't somehow suppressed or rendered identifiable. Most people aren't going to bother showing off their work to others when they know everyone will reasonably assume they are a liar. When lying is the norm it is very hard to convince people you are speaking the truth. And "AI" is a very effective lie machine, swamping society in falsehood.

"There is no possible state a human can occupy where having help getting their ideas onto the a doc without banging their head against the Writer's Block will help them develop the confidence that they can be a writer on the merit of their ideas and delve into doing more of the work themselves instead of looking at 'good' writers getting vitriol and assuming that it would be a wasted effort to even start trying to tell a story."

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It's not their ideas, not their story, and not their work. They are just taking credit for the work of a machine.

You wanna know why ye olde artists had *dedicated* patrons? It was a two-sided curation dynamic that kept the artists on track in making art with a personal assurance of their physical needs while maintaining their dignity enough that they would make sure that whatever they created was *good*.

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No, it meant that they were employees who created what they were told; no different than a modern artist drawing up images for an advertising campaign (until they were rendered unemployed by "AI", at least).

"But how will writers make a living?"
A) maybe spend a little time actually looking at your reason why any human being needs to earn the right to live in our society.

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Because the same people forcing "AI" on everyone want it that way.

 

[magic9mushroom]

As opposed to all the people on here running patreons and such to make money off of fanfics for IP they don't own? Those people don't even have the fig leaf that they aren't doing their copyright violations for money to hide behind.

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TTBOMK nobody's actually pursued a fanfic case far enough to get case law on whether it's illegal (the question is "transformative works"). They've all ended in one party or another giving up before verdict, and not always the fanfic writer.

I'll admit, I'm also opposed to copyright - but "fraud should be illegal" falls out of almost any serious ethical system much more obviously than copyright.

 

[Avernus]

I'll admit, I'm also opposed to copyright - but "fraud should be illegal" falls out of almost any serious ethical system much more obviously than copyright.

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Yes. Copyright is a relatively recent concept, and many have questioned if it does more harm than good. But it's hard to see how you could have much of a society if fraud wasn't punished. And people just won't stand for it. Putting it into law just means you aren't faced with the much more destructive alternative of "everyone get some clubs and you and the boys can go over and teach that fraud a lesson".

 

[lurkingkraken]

Which is one reason why "AI" is going to destroy writing and art as an institution if it isn't somehow suppressed or rendered identifiable. Most people aren't going to bother showing off their work to others when they know everyone will reasonably assume they are a liar. When lying is the norm it is very hard to convince people you are speaking the truth. And "AI" is a very effective lie machine, swamping society in falsehood.

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No.

It wasn't that everyone reasonably assumed they were lying.

It's that people like you, who are convinced that AI will destroy art, starting hounding him about AI use and refused to believe his denial, and then followed up by continuing their attacks into not just writing but other aspects of life, and pursuing onto discord.

AI didn't drive him off.
People witch-hunting did.
Most people reasonably assumed he was telling the truth and accepted that he just wasn't that good a writer.
But that doesn't help when one or more people decide that they know better and that they can sniff out AI use with perfect accuracy. (I say one or more because it's unclear if it was one person with a bunch of accounts/sockpuppets or a small circle of AI haters)
This site has buttons to let you ignore threads.
So just use it when you think someone is using AI. And don't interact with their threads and stories.
And if enough people agree with you, the thread will get no interaction.
And without interaction, if they are using AI to try and get eyes/views/attention, they will wither away and stop.
The belief that everyone is using AI as a default lies behind the belief that it is reasonable to believe that people are lying about not using AI.
Don't use that as an excuse to persecute artists and writers.

AI won't destroy writing. It will sap individual users of AI of the skills to produce anything other than mediocre work, and it will contribute to the flood of terrible writing - a flood that already exists thanks to the wonders of self publishing - but the only way it will destroy writing and art if if you let yourself think that everyone is using AI and no one is doing anything without it.

Do I find it annoying how fast it is to gen a bunch of mediocre and formulaic images? Yes. Yes I do. Do I find myself noticing how AI generated images tend to follow the same patterns the vast majority of the time? Also yes.
But does this mean that I assume everyone is using AI?
No.

It's not their ideas, not their story, and not their work. They are just taking credit for the work of a machine.

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This is true, but also irrelevant for whether it's good to read or not. Death of the author means that the author doesn't matter, so whether it's a machine output or not is irrelevant to whether it's good - note that while obviously I do agree that something that is solely produced by AI is likely to be very mid and average, that still means it's better than a lot of people. Statistically average output means that a bad writer will find it amazing after all.
Alternatively, if you don't believe in death of the author, then again all you have to do is just not interact, since taking credit for something is worthless if no one is giving you credit for it in the first place.
None of this requires witch-hunting people.

It's fine to dislike AI. I dislike AI.
It's not fine to witch-hunt people over whether they may be using AI.

And on the nature of the request at the start of this thread, it's also been well established that mandatory tags aren't going to fly here, at least in part because that would be a lot of work for the moderators that they don't need to do when the user can just use the ignore thread button instead.

Yes. Copyright is a relatively recent concept, and many have questioned if it does more harm than good. But it's hard to see how you could have much of a society if fraud wasn't punished. And people just won't stand for it. Putting it into law just means you aren't faced with the much more destructive alternative of "everyone get some clubs and you and the boys can go over and teach that fraud a lesson".

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The difference is that someone using an LLM - and really we should be calling it an LLM and not AI since it's not really intelligent - is usually not the same person who trained the AI.
Most people using it don't really seem to get how much of it is just statistically averaged output.
But more importantly - this argument isn't one that will convince people using AI not to use it.
Calling them fraud would only work if and when they already agree that AI is fraud.
Otherwise they'll just tell you that they made the prompt so they made the output.
Preaching to the choir is performative but won't make a difference.
Instead just - you know - heavily criticizing content and tone and word choice and also - and more importantly - not joining any patreon/subscibestar/kofi both provides the feedback that may eventually allow them to learn how words and sentences work and go together - which would free them from thinking they need to use AI - and denies them the monetary feedback that provides encouragement that AI is useful as a side gig/passive income generator.

 

[magic9mushroom]

But more importantly - this argument isn't one that will convince people using AI not to use it.
Calling them fraud would only work if and when they already agree that AI is fraud.

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I'd suggest following the quote chain back; this is severely misconstruing what we were talking about.

People who post AI stories and admit they're AI are definitely not fraudsters. It's the ones who claim their AI stories to be human-made in order to get people to pay them that we said were committing fraud (like, they're lying about a product to induce people to buy it; this is a textbook case of fraud). And we weren't trying to convince fraudsters to stop defrauding people; we were merely noting that they ought to be punished by the court system.

 

[FTR2017]

Instead just - you know - heavily criticizing content and tone and word choice and also - and more importantly - not joining any patreon/subscibestar/kofi both provides the feedback that may eventually allow them to learn how words and sentences work and go together - which would free them from thinking they need to use AI - and denies them the monetary feedback that provides encouragement that AI is useful as a side gig/passive income generator.

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This is a proper way of dealing with this nonsense.