Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

[dasstan]

Yeah, because it's often bloody business...

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Usually leaves me feeling drained.

 

[Ichypa]

AlexandriaxMinerva OTP

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

Taylor: How did it end up like this? It was only a kiss!

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There's no way I'm the only one who caught this reference.

It depends.

Rainbow?
or
Rainbow?

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Neither. It's actually Rainbow.

 

[Peanuckle]

Well that's going to shake things up a bit. Hopefully it's not her original power, because a casual Master messing with everyone's emotions is gonna knock this card-house right over.

"I'm just thinking we give Lisa a dose, and see how smart she really is on a fair playing field,"

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Ah yes. Suppress her powers and poke fun at how stupid she is. Just like her parents did. Why not blame her for Taylor's death as well? Go for the whole experience.

Why do you hate Lisa, Tananari?

 

[TanaNari]

GLORY GIRL'S NEW SUPERHERO IDENTITY​

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And linked as I'm sure you're aware.

Ah and it also seems Victoria got in the Theo/Zach group and fits well into it, I wonder how her relationship with Zach progressed during the Skip

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Find out NEXT EPISODE!!!

... No, seriously, you learn more about it after I get that chapter up.

Not likely way too much grunting for Vicky to get into.

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Zach: Gi- poof- gity. Oww, what the hell, Theo?

Theo: You deserved it and you know you deserved it.

Honestly if she was a 'real' asexual and not just someone who got screwed over by her powers the whole thing would be really fucking offensive. We get that shit all the time.

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Keep in mind they only do it to her because she does the same to them.

Why do you hate Lisa, Tananari?

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She likes fucking with people. Some people fuck back. Yet she keeps fucking with people. If she stopped- and asked nicely- they'd stop as well.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Ah yes. Suppress her powers and poke fun at how stupid she is. Just like her parents did. Why not blame her for Taylor's death as well? Go for the whole experience.

Why do you hate Lisa, Tananari?

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Actually, the only person who ever really called Lisa stupid was Lisa herself; agonizing over how she never saw her brother's death (Reggie? I think it was Reggie; probably short for Reginald and that is the exact sort of name that Lisa's snooty rich parents would name their kid). Nobody every ragged on her about being stupid, mostly they bitched at her being a smug bitch.

The fact that she is pretty much smug 90% of the time due to her power, and only recently started cutting back doesn't help matters.

 

[Alterego9]

Note, I don't find it the jokes offensive given the circumstances of the character, since she is actually forced into a lifestyle that she doesn't want by outside forces.

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It still feels the same problem to me. She explicitly identifies as an asexual, not as a straight or lesbian girl wearing a mental chastity belt. She seems to be at least as asexual as Amelia is a lesbian: we don't know how it started, but she has never shown signs of being anything else, on any level.

For all we know, she actually was born that way, and the power merely enhanced her distaste to sex with the TMI effect. After all, it's not like she is squicked out by bugs, dirt, or even Bonesaw, even though there are at least as many repulsive details in them if you would focus hard enough as in sex. Maybe for someone who actually likes sex in the first place, her power would be a boon.

 

[Nigel Burnelli Isaacs]

... No, seriously, you learn more about it after I get that chapter up.

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Looking forward to it.

but she has never shown signs of being anything else, on any level.

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Uh it said in canon that she tried to have Sex and that it went poorly because of her power.

 

[Twilight666]

Whelp I went back and read everything again (and liked everything again)

Just a couple of things (nitpicks actually)

Amelia, Ch 104- Calvert

-snip-

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In SB you had changed the title to Coi-Director Calvert to match the chapter style about Coil's thoughts

-snip-

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This one does not have a title

 

[Alterego9]

Uh it said in canon that she tried to have Sex and that it went poorly because of her power.

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Source?

 

[minuseven]

So, I'm guessing 'natural trigger' since 2nd gen. capes trigger 'softer' than 1st gen.

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FAAAAAAANON (and IC misconception).

It still feels the same problem to me. She explicitly identifies as an asexual, not as a straight or lesbian girl wearing a mental chastity belt. She seems to be at least as asexual as Amelia is a lesbian: we don't know how it started, but she has never shown signs of being anything else, on any level.

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Lisa never says, in canon, that she is assexual. That sex is TMI for her and yuck? Yep. Assexual? The word never comes up. (Heck, even Wildbow explained in a WoG why she didn't have sex, it's on SB somewhere.)

Is she actually an assexual? Maybe. Not yes, maybe.

 

[Alterego9]

Lisa never says, in canon, that she is assexual. That sex is TMI for her and yuck? Yep. Assexual? The word never comes up. (Heck, even Wildbow explained in a WoG why she didn't have sex, it's on SB somewhere.)

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Actually, Wildbow said "Tattletale is asexual for all intents and purposes".

And Lisa herself identified as such in Amelia, which is even more relevant to the question of whether her teammates are being inappropriate about her identity in Amelia.

Edit: Also, in Amelia, it really sounds like she explicitly identifies as an asexual in contrast with the "other" power-based sexual complications.

"I should probably go public with the whole 'asexual' thing, anyway. There's a nicely sized minority of asexuals out there, many of whom are young and in emotional turmoil over their sexuality, or lack thereof, and I'm sure they would appreciate having a high profile hero as 'one of them'. Plus all the other parahumans whose powers make intimacy difficult, one way or another.

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[Alterego9]

Keep in mind they only do it to her because she does the same to them.

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It's like a difference between Taylor deciding to become gay, and Amelia hypothetically deciding to become straight. Sure, they sound like equivalent ideas, but one of those has the weight of lots of vicious real life bullshit behind it.

Likewise, there is a difference of context between pestering people based on unusual power-induced relationship dynamics, and pestering people in a way that echoes the intolerance against an actual, existing minority with the same kind of ignorant assumptions about how ultimately everyone just needs a good dicking.

 

[Divabot]

Likewise, there is a difference of context between pestering people based on unusual power-induced relationship dynamics, and pestering people in a way that echoes the intolerance against an actual, existing minority with the same kind of ignorant assumptions about how ultimately everyone just needs a good dicking.

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Teenagers in a story are ignorant and insensitive dicks? My word, that totally breaks my SoD.

 

[Alterego9]

Teenagers in a story are ignorant and insensitive dicks? My word, that totally breaks my SoD.

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By now probably I should put it into my signature, that unless when is explicitly noted otherwise, I'm not trying to do constructive criticism of how TanaNari should write.

If tkioz makes a claim about how how power-induced asexuality is a more acceptable target than the in-born version, then I'm replying both to the moral argument, and to the canon-related claim of whether Lisa is unwillingly celibate, the same way as I would get into a debate about the Star Trek Federation's economy, or whether Tyrion Lannister is sympathetic.

If TanaNari himself makes a claim that implies an equivalence between teasing straight people to get laid, and teasing asexuals to get laid, then I'm going to debate that the same way, as a generic opinion on an in-universe character's outside interpretation, not as an expectation that something else should have happened.

 

[Divabot]

Even as I largely agree with your positions, this really isn't the thread for it.

 

[Zarohk]

Ah yes. Suppress her powers and poke fun at how stupid she is. Just like her parents did. Why not blame her for Taylor's death as well? Go for the whole experience.

Why do you hate Lisa, Tananari?

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Actually, the only person who ever really called Lisa stupid was Lisa herself; agonizing over how she never saw her brother's death (Reggie? I think it was Reggi; probably short for Reginald and that is the exact sort of name that Lisa's snooty rich parents would name their kid). Nobody every ragged on her about being stupid, mostly they bitched at her being a smug bitch.

The fact that she is pretty much smug 90% of the time due to her power, and only recently started cutting back doesn't help matters.

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Actually, Lisa's problem with her parents was just the opposite: they over-appreciated her genius (as did Coil). After she Triggered from guilt over what she perceived as being unable to see warning signs of her brother Rex (or Reggie)'s suicide, her parents realized how smart she was and decided to exploit her genius, using her brother's death as a guilt trip to keep her using her power to their advantage. That's why she ran away, only to end up in (a more honest version of) the same situation with Coil. It's unclear if her parents even realized that she was a parahuman, or just thought that she was incredibly smart and had been hiding it.

In canon, the reason Lisa's always trying to tell everyone everything she's found out is because she thinks that people need to know. She does need to show everyone how smart she is, but I perceived that as a defense mechanism: because people wanted to use her for her "genius" (Thinker power) before, she now proudly displays it to everyone. In some ways, reminding Lisa that she doesn't have to always be the smart one, and that the people she cares for are capable of solving their own problems and don't need her to swoop in and fix things would be the best. Unfortunately, she is dealing with teenagers, and this is Worm Amelia, where people can't solve their own problems. So, poor Lisa, she's probably the most messed up at the moment.

Edit: Sheaman3773 pointed out that Lisa's older brother went by both Rex and Reggie.

 

[TanaNari]

If TanaNari himself makes a claim that implies an equivalence between teasing straight people to get laid, and teasing asexuals to get laid, then I'm going to debate that the same way, as a generic opinion on an in-universe character's outside interpretation, not as an expectation that something else should have happened.

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You're badly misunderstanding the story, either way.

A group of friends is teasing another friend. That is what is happening here. Lisa has played matchmaker time and again. Taylor and Brian (which may have worked out slightly better in canon, but not really), Missy and Theo, Zach and... anyone she thinks might actually say yes...

There's a pattern here. She's done the same thing to others- a lot- and now it's being turned on her for amusement value. And they'd be doing the same thing regardless of her sexuality.


And all the characters involved understand that. So you should, too. The story has handed this information to you so ham-fistedly that you have only yourself to blame for not figuring it out.


Basically, I'm saying it's not offensive if none of the participants find it offensive. In the same way words like yankee and nigger and fag work. It's all about culture and context.

 

[Alterego9]

There's a pattern here. She's done the same thing to others- a lot- and now it's being turned on her for amusement value. And they'd be doing the same thing regardless of her sexuality.

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That's the same kind of equivocation, as the one according to which gay pride parades make only as much sense as straight pride parades, or that everyone should be equally allowed to marry a member of the opposite sex, "regardless of sexuality".

It's all about culture and context. Sometimes you just can't disregard sexuality as being an important factor.

And all the characters involved understand that. So you should, too. The story has handed this information to you so ham-fistedly that you have only yourself to blame for not figuring it out.

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I'm not disagreeing with anyone about facts of the story, I am disagreeing with the values that you use to interpret those facts.

I believe that you can't portray a member of a marginalized identity being teased with the exact same words as she uses to tease members of a dominant identity, and treat the two events as being the exact same thing.

Well, you can do that, obviously, but no amount of in-universe information will make me agree with that worldview.

This is not a matter of "figuring out" the story, in the next chapter you could put words into Lisa's mouth about how she doesn't mind it because asexuals being teased is the same thing as straights being teased, and then I would consider her stance a shallow one, and believe that she is actually being too lenient about that kind of thing. I would much rather be agreeing with tkioz about how "it's really fucking offensive" because we get that shit all the time.

It's entirely possible that on a personal context, all characters believe that teasing is just teasing, yet in a wider cultural context, it just isn't so. There are probably plenty of irl asexuals who think that getting teased about their sexuality is no worse than them teasing straights about their sexuality. I disagree with them too.

I'm presuming you will disagree with some or more points of this post, that's why I pointed out that it's not narrative criticism for me, it's debate about opinions on culture. I get that in universe Lisa is not the kind of person to too deeply care about microagressions and how they make teasing worse in a cultural context. I get that you are not writing that kind of story.

But when you are posting opinions about how to interpret it, in comments outside of the story, I'm going to disagree with them as with anyone else's

 

[selonianth]

See. The issue is you're being stupidly sensitive over a joke that's a joke even in character. This is just like a couple months ago where I called a friend a dirty Mexican as a joke, he laughed, and some other Latino jackass decided to get threatening and insulted over it.

 

[Cyclone]

*stares at discussion*

I'm sorry, am I the only who realizes Alterego9 is pulling the exact same oversensitive-due-to-ignoring-in-character-context thing the mods on SB did that started the whole shitstorm that resulted in this 'fic moving here? At least the SB mods have the excuse of applying zero tolerance enforcement of actual rules.

 

[Nyrath]

Nope, not alone on that one Cyclone.

Alterego9 seems to be to be doing to classic mistake of confusing "I am offended by my interpretation of this" with "this is objectively offensive".

Hardly a rare thing though. But as said before; culture and context is damned near everything in cases like this.

 

[Divabot]

the exact same oversensitive-due-to-ignoring-in-character-context thing the mods on SB did that started the whole shitstorm that resulted in this 'fic moving here? At least the SB mods have the excuse of applying zero tolerance enforcement of actual rules.

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You'd think this demographic had some sort of problems with subtlety, context, hypotheticals or generalising from themselves to the world and had a burning urge to turn every story thread into the Morality Thread. You think the Shipping Chart is the work of Cthulhu ... the Morality Thread is the shard whose dimension must be destroyed.

I'm half-tempted to start one called Morality Quest, just to see if it can lure this sort of poster in and keep them occupied somewhere ... other than good stories.

OTOH, if I wanted to work, I'd get a job.

 

[Alterego9]

See. The issue is you're being stupidly sensitive over a joke that's a joke even in character.

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That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. (Except for the "over-" and "stupidly" part, obviously I believe I'm just the right amount of offended.)

This is just like a couple months ago where I called a friend a dirty Mexican as a joke, he laughed, and some other Latino jackass decided to get threatening and insulted over it.

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Yeah, latino jackasses tend to feel insulted when you use racist slurs against latino people.

Nope, not alone on that one Cyclone.

Alterego9 seems to be to be doing to classic mistake of confusing "I am offended by my interpretation of this" with "this is objectively offensive".

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How did you work that out? I have repeatedly used the words "believe" "disagree" and "opinion" regarding my own stances, which were accused of "not figuring it out" and "misunderstanding" the correct reading of the story.

At this point I have probably spent more words on how TanaNari and Divabot were wrong for treating this as an opposition to any specific facts rather than "a debate about opinions on culture", than on actual discussion of asexuals' plight.

 

[Divabot]

At this point I have probably spent more words on how TanaNari and Divabot were wrong for treating this as an opposition to any specific in-universe content rather than "a debate about opinions on culture", than on actual discussion of asexuals' plight.

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Yes, I'm definitely your opposition here, well done, even as I note I concur with your fundamental points.

Achievements:
QQ Silver for reading good!

Next move:
[ ] Repeat original claim, ignoring all replies
[ ] Repeat original claim, include segments of replies but don't actually address anything in them
[ ] Change original claim, while claiming not to be changing it - option not available, you already used this one on Atonement
[ ] Stop it, you're well past the point where anyone even cares - option not available, outside capabilities of this hardware interface
[ ] Write in

 

[Cyclone]

At this point I have probably spent more words on how TanaNari and Divabot were wrong for treating this as an opposition to any specific facts rather than "a debate about opinions on culture", than on actual discussion of asexuals' plight.

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Ah, so your argument is not about this 'fic.

So why is it in this thread?

 

[Alterego9]

Yes, I'm definitely your opposition here, well done, even as I note I concur with your fundamental points. You win QQ Silver for reading good!

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My previous reply to you was one of the longer ones on the page, and it was about you treating my comment as a criticism of the nbarrative for breaking SoD.

I get that you haven't actually disagreed with me on the increasingly diminishing topic of sexual orientations, my point was exactly that we have spent more time discussing objectivity of criticism.

Ah, so your argument is not about this 'fic.

So why is it in this thread?

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Huh? If anything, clarifying the difference between our objective criticism and cultural context, seems more relevant to the fic, than detailing the actual cultural context. I wouldn't want to write walls of text about life as an asexual, do you think that would be more relevant to the tread?


Edit: Divabot is right, this is turning into the Generic Forum Argument, with one sentence quotes, three paragraphs explaining every previous sentence, and people being compared to Hitler the SB moderators.

Yeah, should have stopped that 2 posts ago. Alterego9 out.

 

[Dreadis]

*spots morality debate with standardized shaky goalposts*


So about Victoria's trigger; some points.

Other then how Victoria stated she triggered there is no actual evidence 2nd gen capes are that easy to trigger.
There is no information on the circumstances leading to Victoria's trigger either as far as I'm aware other then basketball game (smells like hiding a real excuse to me)
Theo's cannon trigger was, if not as bad as a 1st gen trigger, still pretty shitty even though 3rd gen.

This concludes my knowledge on 2++ gen triggers.

Even with my knowledge of that there is no need for Vicky to require such a simple trigger, lets look at recent events

1 Vicky is powerless after being powered and near indestructible(from her point of view)
2 Minor timeskip is Minor
3 Her sister and friends(and Taylor) just went to an Endbringer battle.
4 She was unable to go help with the endbringer due to nolonger having powers.
5 She is powerless to help protect her sister and the world against Endbringers now
6 Feelings of powerlessness/uselessness
7 Look at all those high Conflict shard carriers she hangs around, all those potential buds


I would have been totally surprised if she didn't trigger in a situation like this, only question is what bud she picked up and who she was nea enough to pingr among the adult New Wavers when it happened

 

[Divabot]

and people being compared to Hitler the SB moderators.

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OK, that got a "like".

("Alterego9? It's the Empire 88 Anti-Defamation League on line two. They're quite upset about who you compared Hitler to.")

 

[GorgonEyed]

I would have been totally surprised if she didn't trigger in a situation like this, only question is what bud she picked up and who she was nea enough to pingr among the adult New Wavers when it happened

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If I recall correctly, all the members of New Wave who didn't go to New Delhi, plus Danny, congregated to worry as a group. I'd imagine the tradition would continue with this Endbringer.
I wonder, has Queen Administrator budded back to Danny yet? Can it?

Even if it hasn't... that's a lot of potential sitting around her. Green Lantern expy, anyone?