Charm Learning Shard (Worm/Exalted) (COMPLETED)

[queermunist]

They bribed, stole, smuggled, assaulted the police, attacked prisons and transports, and engaged in animal cruelty.

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Part of the problem is that, aside from animal cruelty, those things are stuff that sympathetic villains did in Worm and do in other stories. The Undersiders, for example

 

[zharshoul]

Sounds more like a condemnation of the undersiders and other supposedly lesser evils. Not sure how you found them sympathetic. Also sounds like one of the "Hitler also breathed oxygen" that is often decried as a strawman somehow. Your saying that they must not be Nazis because they do things that characters I like do, why didn't the author have them do blatantly Nazi things.

Perhaps if they were actually rounding up the population and putting them in labor and extermination camps the PRT would actually take action instead of allowing the status quo? Aren't they also guilty for allowing this in their city by the standards that are usually held for being anti Nazi? New Wave and the PRT must also be Nazis now that I think about it, why did Wildbow write a fiction where so many people are Nazis? Remember in WW2 the USA didn't join to "save the jews" they did it as revenge for Pearl Harbor, all the USA is also Nazis for allowing it to go that far. All the countries that didn't explicitly join the allies as well.


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I personally view Lisa from the undersiders as one of the most evil characters of the setting when people don't white wash her to make her Taylor's Lesbian BFF/girlfriend/generally woobify her. She is an incredibly skilled liar that doesn't care about who she tricks, scams or destroys and feels completely justified in all that she does. Atleast the Nazis and other gangs of the settings are "honest" evils instead of being the snakes in the grass.

 

[klassekatze]

Part of the problem is that, aside from animal cruelty, those things are stuff that sympathetic villains did in Worm and do in other stories. The Undersiders, for example

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Yes?

I feel like fundamentally there is this expectation-slash-desire that Nazi's aren't people. And that, if they aren't people, there should be nothing to sympathize with, ever, and therefore if you feel any then they are not really Nazi's.

But my point is that not only is that unrealistic, it is actually detrimental, because it means if you feel sympathy for someone they aren't bad. Or bad enough. Or whatever.

And the Undersiders are an excellent poster child for this-- because bringing up how awful they are pulls defenders out of the woodwork. Because so many people believe-- even if only unconsciously-- sympathetic means good. It means let's make excuses.

But I don't think that was the lesson we were supposed to take away from Worm, frankly. After all, Taylor herself acknowledges later in-story that she was making excuses to do what she wanted to do rather than what was right.

The Undersiders were terrible people who did terrible things. They were not forced to do those things, any more than some teenager joining the E88 was. In fact, arguably, Taylor in particular has less excuse-- while her father wasn't well off she had everything she needed and was not indoctrinated or encouraged to be bad by any authority figures in her life. Quite, the opposite.

The Undersiders at every turn chose benefits and convenience and ease over any sort of morality beyond the most base and tribal. If they bothered to feel bad at all, they made up excuses and rationalized.

And we see that most clearly with Dinah, where to her credit Taylor actually draws a line and says "you know I guess this is a little too far for me to rationalize." But Brian only cares about benefits for him and his, same for Alec, Bitch, and even Lisa-- who begrudgingly sides with Taylor only because Taylor gives her an ultimatum.

The very first thing we see them get up to after Taylor joins is a bank robbery, where Taylor terrorizes civilians with spiders that she is leading them to believe can kill them at will. Lisa pulls a Trio on Amy but it's okay, because Amy is a hero enemy. A horrible, malicious display that she clearly enjoys inflicting on percieved enemies throughout Worm, be they gangers or heroes.

Alec is, of course, a rapist and probable murderer. He has more of an excuse than others, until of course he imprisons Shadow Stalker in her own body in the ultimate violation of bodily autonomy, then uses her as a weapon against her own people (framing her) and finishes up by revealing her secret identity to people.

Brian isn't so bad. He wants to provide for his sister... but only his way, which is by being a thug, even though everyone knows the PRT pays 100k a year minimum and wants any recruit they can get. It beggars belief that they wouldn't happily solve his problem and own his loyalty in the process. The only excuse I can imagine for him is to presume he's as dumb as the E88 would stereotype him as.

I'm not that charitable.

Bitch is more of the same. She has the best excuse that she's mentally ill, insofar as that's an excuse. But a crazy person isn't a good person just because they're crazy. The consequence of not caring about outsiders is outsiders retaliating in the form of jail.

Lisa is particularly touchy, because people leap on the gunpoint recruitment and use it to justify everything she ever does, while also looking for other excuses for everything she does after Coil dies. Dies, mind you, after she is like "oh, its you or Coil? Fine, I'll get rid of Coil then" without a semblance of fear, and then subsequently architects the death of Coil. After which she continues to be the exact same kind of criminal.

TL;DR the Undersiders are sympathetic. They're the heroes of their own story. Just like the members of the E88 would see themselves.

And they're both terrible despite it. Yes, the E88 as an organization is worse. But "well those guys are even worse" doesn't make the Undersiders any less unrepentant criminals. (Except Taylor, she was a little bit repentant, a tiny bit, a smidge...)

 

[alethiophile]

The ideological nazi is a thoughtful guy who didn't pay proper attention in critical thinking class. He heard the "using critical thinking to draw your own conclusions is important", but missed the "-because it's high status. Here's a list of conclusions critical thinkers come to, if you can replicate them you'll be high status too." He was too busy thinking about questions like "if it's a democracy, why does it consistently do the opposite of the will of the people?", and a bit later "so they found six million bodies, right?" If you ask him "what's your favorite policy of the NSDAP?" he'll be delighted, and possibly refer you to one of several essays he's written.

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While discussing the nature of the E88 in-fic is fine, this looks like it's also carrying the parallel implication that critical thinking leads unavoidably to Holocaust denial.

Please try to avoid such implications.

 

[queermunist]

Your saying that they must not be Nazis because they do things that characters I like do, why didn't the author have them do blatantly Nazi things.

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Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying the Nazis were written sympathetically. That's it.

And that, if they aren't people, there should be nothing to sympathize with, ever, and therefore if you feel any then they are not really Nazi's.

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No, I was just concerned that they were entirely sympathetic. After all, villains don't have to be sympathetic to be realistic.

I feel like some of y'all are conflating "sympathetic" with "realistic". You realize bad people actually exist right?

 

[klassekatze]

I feel like some of y'all are conflating "sympathetic" with "realistic". You realize bad people actually exist right?

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I am conflating them in this context, actually, yes. Here's why.

Kaiser recieves a new recruit. She's mostly an unknown to him. She asserts that she wants to join the E88 because it is the right thing to do. Oh, and she wants some money. But that first bit is important, here-- even if she wants money, she isn't primarily motivated by it. After all, if it was just about money, she could have shopped around, and probably would have wanted much more. Her decision only makes sense if to some extent she is telling the truth-- she thinks the E88 sound pretty legit.

I think it's reasonable to assume he wants it to stay that way. Or, at least, to have her more attached than discomfited by the E88. He does not need her, a parahuman, to do most of the unsavory things-- he has normies and more unscrupulous capes. He just needs her to pad out the force until she inevitably dies or is sent to prison.

So if he wants her attached, what should he do? Perhaps attach her to his most sympathetic Nazis, because he wants her to sympathize with them. That seems pretty straightforward to me. And what do you know, it's a group that like to talk a lot. A great place for someone to observe her indoctrination and determine (from her responses) if she's "ready" to work with more unsympathetic people, like say Hookwolf. Maybe then she too can murder grocers and cut up little girls!

But Taylor is not really trying to be a model Nazi-- she's just here for powers-- so she never "graduates" from the radicalization pipeline. That's fine. Her power is not so amazing, plenty for her to do for Kaiser without rubbing her face in anything heavier.

(But everything changed when the S9 attacked )

Edit:

Put it another way. Kaiser has managed to maintain the biggest centralized cape gangs in Brockton if not America, despite being a literal Nazi gang, and he didn't get there by exposing new recruits to things that would make them not want to be members of the E88. Almost definitionally, anything significantly 'unsympathetic' falls in that category. There would need to be a really compelling benefit to justify that risk, and with her power being "summon a wolf" there isn't much of one.

 

[queermunist]

Put it another way. Kaiser has managed to maintain the biggest centralized cape gangs in Brockton if not America, despite being a literal Nazi gang, and he didn't get there by exposing new recruits to things that would make them not want to be members of the E88. Almost definitionally, anything significantly 'unsympathetic' falls in that category. There would need to be a really compelling benefit to justify that risk, and with her power being "summon a wolf" there isn't much of one.

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This is an entirely reasonable Watsonian interpretation, but much like the other mentioned idea that the Simurgh was fiddling with hate crime reporting to make it look like the (((mainstream media))) is unfairly maligning the innocent Nazis it's still just something we have to make up to justify the author's choices.

I actually happen to like that interpretation and think it makes a lot of sense, and definitely makes that segment of the story more palatable.

But you have to acknowledge that it's just something you're making up. Death of the author and all that, but that was a deliberate writing choice and I simply don't agree with it.

But that's okay they all died in screaming agony so I'm happy with how things turned out.

 

[klassekatze]

But you have to acknowledge that it's just something you're making up. Death of the author and all that, but that was a deliberate writing choice and I simply don't agree with it.

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I mean... yes, I "made it up." It's speculation based on what we do see, about things we don't see. I don't think it's comparable to "the Simurgh did it" though

Out of curiosity, what exactly would you envision your preferred writing choices looking like?

Like. Suppose the E88 / the part she's working with were overtly, blatantly unsympathetic. But unlike in most stories, this Taylor straight up wouldn't care, though-- reject morals, acquire powers. So she would go along with literally anything that doesn't require her to directly shaft her personal friends or assets.

That would make her just as unsympathetic, if not moreso. I don't think I have to point out the problem with having an unsympathetic protagonist.

I suppose it could have worked if Taylor was a slightly less totally sociopathic Solar-- if she would have more difficulty with doing things that pre-trigger she would consider terrible. Then we'd get a internal conflict. But... well, that's not the story we got, unfortunately. It became clear to me when she framed up that concubine despite it providing her no significant advantage that she was a total monster.

 

[R.A.G.]

I love a morality debate as much as the next person, but since the fic is over shouldn't this go to a Rant thread or something?

If it's staying here tho, I've got to say that I quite liked how the E88 went in this fic. It's a good example of how most evil, the lasting evil, tends to be good at seeming reasonable and/or charming. Many serial killers are considered affable by those that know them, why wouldn't that scale up to groups in an organization? And it does seem to, from what I know about cults!

 

[queermunist]

Out of curiosity, what exactly would you envision your preferred writing choices looking like?

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I would have preferred to see Taylor struggle with reconciling her craving for more powers with revulsion at what she is becoming in order to get those powers. Make the slippery slope a central conflict of the story, with more internal struggle to make terrible choices.

Instead of the hate crimes being a myth made up by the (((mainstream media))), make Taylor participate in vile crimes for power. Lynch a Black man accused of raping a white woman and then find out later it was all made up, etc. She'd rationalize it to herself over and over until she's forced to confront herself in horror at what she's become.

I recognize that would have been a very different story and wouldn't have fit with her characterization as an inhuman power gamer, though. There were elements of this, Taylor clearly isn't happy with who she is, but it was all very subtle and just a background to the aforementioned power gaming.

 

[Rune]

I would like to know the level of reading comprehension required to draw this:

carrying the parallel implication that critical thinking leads unavoidably to Holocaust denial

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from a statement including this

guy who didn't pay proper attention in critical thinking class

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emphasis mine.

 

[Alucard 109]

I would like to know the level of reading comprehension required to draw this:



from a statement including this


emphasis mine.

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The level that manages to read the sentence immediately after the one you quoted?

He heard the "using critical thinking to draw your own conclusions is important", but missed the "-because it's high status. Here's a list of conclusions critical thinkers come to, if you can replicate them you'll be high status too."

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[snthsnth]

I would like to know the level of reading comprehension required to draw this:



from a statement including this


emphasis mine.

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The original statement says that critical thinking leads to conclusions that are labeled 'far right', unless you have the 'correct' conclusions fed to you by the one teaching you critical thinking.

As an example that shouldn't actually violate Rule 8: if you read books on Fascism by the early creators of it and the rulers who made it, they consider Fascism to be far left. They consider it to be the ultimate expression of Socialism and Communism, the logical conclusion to those forms of government.

With only the process of critical thinking, you would easily come to the same conclusion. They exhibit the same characteristics as those Socialist governments, dialed to 11.

But if you've been given the 'correct' answers first, you will know that Fascism is far right, the ultimate expression of Conservative Libertarian thought. ConLibs demand small government, low taxes, no handouts/bailouts, less government regulation, and more personal rights.

How that can become total government control makes little sense if you have never been fed the answer beforehand.

So Daniel basically said that thinking clearly leads to Holocaust denial, with the strong implication that anyone would come to the same conclusions if they didn't have preexisting bias against Holocaust denial.

 

[Whitesnake Pelinal]

Well, if we're having this discussion... anyone know how much play Exalted 2 gets these days? How much 3 gets?

 

[Cheiromancer]

While I'm happy that this story is among the few complete wormfics, I have to admit that I miss logging on every weekday and seeing a new chapter.

But thank you, Daniel, for an enjoyable story. I especially liked the banter in the E88 chapters. I found it very thought provoking!

 

[Akuma-Heika]

Sad to find out this was completed while I was having issues, but thanks for completing it. Sad it ended like all worm fics seem to (with an exhausted whimper), but that seems inevitable so I am just happy that it was finished.

Whatever happened to Taylor's clone?

 

[5ColouredWalker]

Sad to find out this was completed while I was having issues, but thanks for completing it. Sad it ended like all worm fics seem to (with an exhausted whimper), but that seems inevitable so I am just happy that it was finished.

Whatever happened to Taylor's clone?

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It either died horribly or escaped off-screen in the unthreadmarked interlude Snuts stated he wouldn't further comment on the canonically of.

 

[Coaxmetal]

Sad to find out this was completed while I was having issues, but thanks for completing it. Sad it ended like all worm fics seem to (with an exhausted whimper), but that seems inevitable so I am just happy that it was finished.

Whatever happened to Taylor's clone?

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I would assume it's the dead taylor body they turn in when tagg gives the kill order idk how much of that was in spoilered pov tho

 

[ses]

But if you got a power that conjures matter, you could become a really slow rocket with infinite fuel. Wait, you can technically already do that. Mind-hands don't have an equal and opposite reaction on your body, so you could just repeatedly throw your panoply of orichalcum equipment with your regular hands, and snatch them back with mind-hands before they flew too far. An exceedingly slow rocket.

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Wait wouldn't her first thought be Summoning the Loyal Steel rather than Mind Hands breaking Newton's Third? If she can't bootstraps herself with mind-hands because of Cape Reasons I don't know why she'd bother using Mind Hands for infinite exhaust compared to instant teleport-to-self.

(Been rereading)

Edit: Never mind, double checked the charm text, Loyal Steel needs you to still be touching the artifact, I forgot Loyal Steel and Call the Blade are actually two separate charms.

 

[Error29]

"Yeah." You did still burn down her house. "I'm sorry.

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Yeah this story got from good to bad and finally horrible.