Exalted 3E Discussion

[Valette-Serafina]

Leaving aside that Sids had that benefit already,

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No, they didn't. That was something of a significant aspect of the splat. Moonsilver takes time and skill, things the Lunar Exalted have plenty of. Starmetal took a dead god, something the Sidereal Exalted had to arrange.

if anything the way Starmetal is formed now should mean they have less than before given that Starmetal is now naturally created when Essence tangles up in the constellations and then falls to the earth, unlike before where the two fold issue was "Who can I get executed and can I reach the starmetal before someone else does?"

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I see very little reason to think that manipulating the Celestial hierarchy for an execution on false justification would be easier than tangling essence and then giving it a hard tap ten years later.

 

[Nervaqus987]

No, they didn't. That was something of a significant aspect of the splat. Moonsilver takes time and skill, things the Lunar Exalted have plenty of. Starmetal took a dead god, something the Sidereal Exalted had to arrange.

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The Sidereal also have something no one else can claim, an unbroken line of descent from the First Age. They have no catastrophe or civil war or anything of the like that destroyed their infrastructure and scattered their Artifacts to the winds.

Starmetal may be rare, but five thousand years is a long time for it to accumulate.

That's leaving aside that Exalts aren't exactly prohibited from using items made of the other Magical Materials, which are also much more common. It's more difficult, certainly, but there are Exalts that do so. For example, Black Ice Shadow with his soulsteel short daiklaves.

I see very little reason to think that manipulating the Celestial hierarchy for an execution on false justification would be easier than tangling essence and then giving it a hard tap ten years later.

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3e Starmetal is formed by natural phenomena, when the Anima of Creation, something derived from the Essence use of all gods, Terrestrial and Celestial alike, entangles itself in the constellations and then falls as meteors. Something that is explicitly a rare occurrence.

Waiting for that to happen is much more time consuming than using Heaven's notoriously corrupt bureaucracy to arrange an execution.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

3e Starmetal is formed by natural phenomena, when the Anima of Creation, something derived from the Essence use of all gods, Terrestrial and Celestial alike, entangles itself in the constellations and then falls as meteors. Something that is explicitly a rare occurrence.

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Yeah, bullshit. Like you said, unbroken line of descent from the first age: If Sidereals cannot manipulate this, it's time to start asking if they're actually Exalted anymore.

Waiting for that to happen is much more time consuming than using Heaven's notoriously corrupt bureaucracy to arrange an execution.

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Corrupt does not mean willing to help the Sidereal Exalted. It can, in fact, mean exactly the opposite.

It is very important to remember that the Sidereal exalted are not in charge of heaven, or even their own caste departments. They must struggle for influence: It is not freely given.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Yeah, bullshit. Like you said, unbroken line of descent from the first age: If Sidereals cannot manipulate this, it's time to start asking if they're actually Exalted anymore.

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Orichalcum requires a volcano and a occult arrangement of mirrors to focus sunlight to properly transform gold to be produced.

In the First Age, when Solars ruled Creation and could rearrange its geomancy to fit their desires they could probably get a volcano together in relatively short order.

Nowdays, if a Solar wants a volcano, making one is a huge pain in the ass compared to finding one already existent.

So, should we start asking if they're actually Exalted anymore or should we acknowledge that making natural phenomena your bitch is a tad difficult?

Corrupt does not mean willing to help the Sidereal Exalted. It can, in fact, mean exactly the opposite.

It is very important to remember that the Sidereal exalted are not in charge of heaven, or even their own caste departments. They must struggle for influence: It is not freely given.

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The Sidereal do not rule Heaven, no. But nor are they powerless. They have built up considerable influence and while they may not be able to have any god killed at the drop of a hat, it's not terribly difficult for them to have some middle manager somewhere knocked off.

To so say nothing of the hordes of jobless and homeless gods that inhabit Heaven's slums.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Orichalcum requires a volcano and a occult arrangement of mirrors to focus sunlight to properly transform gold to be produced.

In the First Age, when Solars ruled Creation and could rearrange its geomancy to fit their desires they could probably get a volcano together in relatively short order.

Nowdays, if a Solar wants a volcano, making one is a huge pain in the ass compared to finding one already existent.

So, should we start asking if they're actually Exalted anymore or should we acknowledge that making natural phenomena your bitch is a tad difficult?

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As you said: Unbroken line of descent from the first age. Unlike the Solar Exalted they have the same knowledge and tools they had access to in creation's height.

If a Solar crafter with access to the same could not make Orichalcum, it would indeed be time to say that the Solar Exalted don't deserve to be called Exalted.

The Sidereal do not rule Heaven, no. But nor are they powerless. They have built up considerable influence and while they may not be able to have any god killed at the drop of a hat, it's not terribly difficult for them to have some middle manager somewhere knocked off.

To so say nothing of the hordes of jobless and homeless gods that inhabit Heaven's slums.

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And that betrays a deep misunderstanding of the relationship between Yu Shan and the Five-Score Fellowship. Heaven's judges and ministers aren't neutral to the Sidereal Exalted: Many of them personally remember when the Bronze Stars stormed Lytek's office. Many of them still hold a grudge. Engineering an execution? That's a crime under heaven's laws. It is a vulnerability, an expenditure of influence. There are Celestial Judges who would have one of the Maiden's chosen under the axe far sooner than any god.

Unless, of course, you decide to ignore one of the most significant conflicts a Sidereal must face.

 

[Nervaqus987]

As you said: Unbroken line of descent from the first age. Unlike the Solar Exalted they have the same knowledge and tools they had access to in creation's height.

If a Solar crafter with access to the same could not make Orichalcum, it would indeed be time to say that the Solar Exalted don't deserve to be called Exalted.

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Except they don't have access to the same tools.

There are no more factory cathedrals or atelier-manse. There is no vast networks in place, harnessing the power of the Dragonlines.

The vast infrastructure of the First Age is gone. It was destroyed in the Usurpation, broken down through war, neglect, and the Shogunate plucking it clean of everything of value.

The infrastructure of the Shogunate no longer exists, torn apart by civil war and first the Contagion and then the Crusade.

And that betrays a deep misunderstanding of the relationship between Yu Shan and the Five-Score Fellowship. Heaven's judges and ministers aren't neutral to the Sidereal Exalted: Many of them personally remember when the Bronze Stars stormed Lytek's office. Many of them still hold a grudge. Engineering an execution? That's a crime under heaven's laws. It is a vulnerability, an expenditure of influence. There are Celestial Judges who would have one of the Maiden's chosen under the axe far sooner than any god.

Unless, of course, you decide to ignore one of the most significant conflicts a Sidereal must face.

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Except, again, Yu-shan is deeply corrupt.

It is a nest of particularly cutthroat vipers and the Sidereals are not the unified enemy of everyone there. The gods they would have executed do not exist in a vacuum. They have friends, yes, but they also have enemies and subordinates who would love nothing more than to slide into a suddenly opened seat.

The judges of heaven are not without their own corruptions and crimes either. The Censors are uniformly corrupt and bribeable as are even the Celestial Lions.

That's not even getting into the bureaucracy of it all.

So no, I'm not ignoring one of the conflicts Sidereals face. Here's the thing about it though, they are expected to be able to face it. They are supposed to be able to do these things.

And here's the other thing about it. It doesn't go away just because in 3e you don't have to have gods executed to make starmetal. Sidereals are still going to have to interact with the Heavenly Bureaucracy to get shit done. That means bribing, threatening, flattering, seducing, lying, cheating, blackmailing, and all the other wonderful things they have to get into in order to do their jobs. Not in only in their capacity as agents of the Bureu of Destiny, but also as members of the Bronze or the Gold Factions. Not to mention their personal interests.

 

[kinglugia]

And that's why I hate intrigue shit. Too many things to keep track of. How do you people deal with Sidereal Intrigue?

 

[Nervaqus987]

And that's why I hate intrigue shit. Too many things to keep track of. How do you people deal with Sidereal Intrigue?

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Keep notes.

Write down a character's name and position/title. Directly underneath that, write in what context do they know you(shadowy backer, Immaculate Monk, Sidereal Exalt, etc).

Go down a bit and write what influence you have on them or vice versa(I'm sleeping with this guy, she frequently has tea with my sifu, I have blackmail, I'm getting blackmailed, etc). Make sure to keep track of how much is owed. Sometimes, you've just got a favor one way or the other. In others, somebody's balls are firmly in a vice.

Then write down who they have influence on or are being influenced by. This girl sleeps with her boss, this one has their kids in positions of authority, this guy is the Gold Faction's general use bitch, etc.

Write down what assets of theirs that you are aware of, both official and unofficial. You might note this god is a City Father with the appropriate influences, but also note that he's got blackmail on the local Terrestrial Court. If you really want to, you can also keep track of what assets they think you know that they have. But that gets really complicated, really fast.

If you want a visual reference, you can draw up a character map. Write a character's name in a bubble and connect those bubbles to the bubbles of other characters as appropriate.


Also very important, don't be afraid to go "Hey give me a minute" out of game to reference said notes.

 

[tehelgee]

Keep notes.

Also very important, don't be afraid to go "Hey give me a minute" out of game to reference said notes.

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Authors create and refer to notes constantly. Why shouldn't you do the same when collaboratively telling a story, ie roleplaying?

 

[Smuthunter]

The Dragon-Blooded kickstarter is live and already hitting stretch goals. Got a $50 pledge and a bunch of PDFs headed my way in a few months.

 

[Biigoh]

I... I think I'm going to hold off until they're done and get them on drivethrurpg

 

[Stroth]

Yeah. Not exactly trusting these folks at this point.

 

[Nervaqus987]

So, real quick.

Onyx Path learned their lesson from the 3e Kickstarter. The way they do things now(as they have done with Scion and Trinity) is that the book is done. Text is finished and what's left is clean up, final edits, layout, etc.

So if anyone's worried about that and not getting your product for three years, don't.

I backed Scion and I have the full text PDF for both Origin and Hero on my computer with Hero open right in front of me. I backed Trinity Continuum and I have both the Core for that and the Aeon Core full text PDFs also on my computer.

Throughout the Kickstarter, they would frequently release previews consisting of entire chapters for the books. At the end of the Kickstarter, they'll post a download link for backers to get the full thing.

 

[Smuthunter]

I backed Scion and I have the full text PDF for both Origin and Hero on my computer

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Wait, what? Scion as in Scion 2E? When the hell did that happen?

 

[Nervaqus987]

Wait, what? Scion as in Scion 2E? When the hell did that happen?

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Yes and little while ago.

Onyx Path straight up bought the rights to both Scion and Trinity and have been working on a second edition for them both.

Both of the Kickstarters launched and finished a while ago. Scion was last September, Trinity was January. Both are funded and are using the new in house rule system Storypath.

There's some slight variations between the two games, but they're largely compatible.

Scion
Trinity

 

[Smuthunter]

Yes and little while ago.

Onyx Path straight up bought the rights to both Scion and Trinity and have been working on a second edition for them both.

Both of the Kickstarters launched and finished a while ago. Scion was last September, Trinity was January. Both are funded and are using the new in house rule system Storypath.

There's some slight variations between the two games, but they're largely compatible.

Scion
Trinity

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So I plunked down some cash for the Origin and Hero pre-orders but I see the shipment date was supposed to be last September. Or was that just for the PDF version? And where do I get my hands on the full text version in the meantime?

 

[Nervaqus987]

So I plunked down some cash for the Origin and Hero pre-orders but I see the shipment date was supposed to be last September. Or was that just for the PDF version? And where do I get my hands on the full text version in the meantime?

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I'm seeing my stuff for May, but whatever.

You need to go into BackerKit to get them. It should be https://scion-2nd-edition-tabletop-rpg.backerkit.com. After that, there'll be a box that says Digital Downloads. Just click that, then download Origins and Hero and you should be good.

 

[Smuthunter]

I'm seeing my stuff for May, but whatever.

You need to go into BackerKit to get them. It should be https://scion-2nd-edition-tabletop-rpg.backerkit.com. After that, there'll be a box that says Digital Downloads. Just click that, then download Origins and Hero and you should be good.

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Ok, I see what I did wrong. I ordered the books, not the PDFs. For pre-orders they don't come together in a bundle like they do when you back them, the text previews are only packaged together with the PDF versions. Which are the cheaper versions anyways, so that suits me just fine.

 

[Anasurimbor]

I... I think I'm going to hold off until they're done and get them on drivethrurpg

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The manuscript is complete and the book is currently in layout, so this isn't going to be a repeat of the core. Still, waiting for the final product is a reasonable choice. If you're uncertain about the book, a $5 (refundable) pledge will get you access to the full manuscript text, which is being released in 5 weekly installments. It's a (dev endorsed) no-risk trial option.

 

[Raging Iron Thunder]

Any thoughts on how E works in practice?

I loved 1e and 2e both until they felt unplayable over time. I have two deluxe corebooks still in the shrinkwrap... I either need to sell them or play the damn game.

 

[Smuthunter]

Any thoughts on how E works in practice?

I loved 1e and 2e both until they felt unplayable over time. I have two deluxe corebooks still in the shrinkwrap... I either need to sell them or play the damn game.

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I managed to play a few rounds before my last group broke up and I can say this for certain: aside from the craft rules, which are kinda borked but I don't care because I've never wanted to play a crafter, the game is finally functional without extensive house ruling. Combat feels good, initiative is easy to keep track of, and every charm tree feels worthwhile to invest in, like you could build a whole character around, say, Resistance.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I managed to play a few rounds before my last group broke up and I can say this for certain: aside from the craft rules, which are kinda borked but I don't care because I've never wanted to play a crafter, the game is finally functional without extensive house ruling. Combat feels good, initiative is easy to keep track of, and every charm tree feels worthwhile to invest in, like you could build a whole character around, say, Resistance.

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This is your reminder that you can't actually hit anything with a Withering attack without houseruling an extra step in attack resolution.

 

[Serafina]

This is your reminder that you can't actually hit anything with a Withering attack without houseruling an extra step in attack resolution.

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I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If there's any "missing step", it must be so minor that I've "house-ruled" it without even noticing, aking to "house-ruling" that you can't take any actions while dead.

Step One: roll dice (Dexterity + Archery, Brawl, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown + weapon accuracy + specialization), get more successes than the enemies defense, if you get that you hit, if you don't you miss.
Step Two: Raw Damage equals (Strength + Weapon Damage + Extra Successes from the attack), unless otherwise specificed. So you write down the raw damage (because your strength or weapon value doesn't change much) and just add extra successes to it.
Step Three: Substract Soak from raw damage, the result can't be lower than your Overwhelming value. Roll that many dices, using double-10s.
Step Four: Your target loses as much initiative as you got successes on the damage roll. You gain that much Initiative plus one.

Where's the missing step? I honestly have no idea, unless you mean that this doesn't have to be a hit, it can also be a near-miss or a hit into a nearby water barrel that soaks the enemy and makes them stumble, or whatever because you can easily give a cool description and it doesn't matter for the rules.

 

[Stroth]

Step One: roll dice (Dexterity + Archery, Brawl, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown + weapon accuracy + specialization), get more successes than the enemies defense, if you get that you hit, if you don't you miss.
Step Two: Raw Damage equals (Strength + Weapon Damage + Extra Successes from the attack), unless otherwise specificed. So you write down the raw damage (because your strength or weapon value doesn't change much) and just add extra successes to it.
Step Three: Substract Soak from raw damage, the result can't be lower than your Overwhelming value. Roll that many dices, using double-10s.
Step Four: Your target loses as much initiative as you got successes on the damage roll. You gain that much Initiative plus one.

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You didn't declare a target. You're attacking the air in front of you.

 

[Serafina]

.....yeah if that's it I'm going to say that the "house-ruling" is so inconsequential as to not matter. You're talking about "the target" from step one, so it's pretty clear you need one.

 

[Stroth]

You're talking about "the target" from step one, so it's pretty clear you need one.

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And yet you don't have one as the rules are written. Yes, it's an obvious detail, that's the point. Glossing over the obvious details because you don't think they're necessary is terrible game design.

 

[Smuthunter]

And yet you don't have one as the rules are written. Yes, it's an obvious detail, that's the point. Glossing over the obvious details because you don't think they're necessary is terrible game design.

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No, it's what's called nitpicking. Literally no group I've ever heard of has ever actually had this problem. You're making shit up so that you have something to complain about.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If there's any "missing step", it must be so minor that I've "house-ruled" it without even noticing, aking to "house-ruling" that you can't take any actions while dead.

Step One: roll dice (Dexterity + Archery, Brawl, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown + weapon accuracy + specialization), get more successes than the enemies defense, if you get that you hit, if you don't you miss.
Step Two: Raw Damage equals (Strength + Weapon Damage + Extra Successes from the attack), unless otherwise specificed. So you write down the raw damage (because your strength or weapon value doesn't change much) and just add extra successes to it.
Step Three: Substract Soak from raw damage, the result can't be lower than your Overwhelming value. Roll that many dices, using double-10s.
Step Four: Your target loses as much initiative as you got successes on the damage roll. You gain that much Initiative plus one.

Where's the missing step? I honestly have no idea, unless you mean that this doesn't have to be a hit, it can also be a near-miss or a hit into a nearby water barrel that soaks the enemy and makes them stumble, or whatever because you can easily give a cool description and it doesn't matter for the rules.

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As Stroth said, you've no target.

Also, you can't activate any offensive charms, and the target you don't have doesn't get to activate any defensive charms. That's less significant than being unable to designate a target without houseruling.

No, it's what's called nitpicking. Literally no group I've ever heard of has ever actually had this problem. You're making shit up so that you have something to complain about.

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No, that's the way the book's written. I'm making up nothing. We had this conversation a while back, over how many attack steps there actually are in E.

Of course, if you're willing to look at craft and then say that every charm tree is a worthwhile investment, then you've made your commitment clear.

 

[drakean]

If that is legitimately a complaint people have, then I would hate playing any game with them. That's on the same page as dying because you didn't say your character was breathing as a free action every turn. Because guess what? That's a rule I don't think ANY game has ever actually written down.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

If that is legitimately a complaint people have, then I would hate playing any game with them. That's on the same page as dying because you didn't say your character was breathing as a free action every turn. Because guess what? That's a rule I don't think ANY game has ever actually written down.

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If the game doesn't break down attack mechanics into a step by step list, it gets a pass.

Exalted breaks down attacks into a step by step list.