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What you're listing are mostly trappings, not themes or design spaces.I can't quite agree there. I like the theme approach.
Solars are chosen of skill and virtue, and should hold powers of being very good at stuff and being shiny.
Lunars are chosen of change and survival, and should hold powers of changing and not dying.
Sidereals are chosen of fate, and should hold powers of being hard to understand and not working right. That don't like that, so they've gotten very good at finding ways to make themselves work.
Dragonblooded are born of the elements and of duty, and should hold powers of bending and always being able to kill something.
That's just awesome.Hahaha, oh wow /tg/, you are just full of good ideas.
"Hey faggots, I'm a Loremaster giving my whole circle +2 mote regen!"
"Oh crap, take him out!"
"Have I mentioned I'm also a Crane Stylist?"
"Shit!"
I assume Crane style is a terrestrial martial art focused on counterattacking?
Kinda yes, kinda no.It's a Celestial Style in 2e. Probably in 3e too. But otherwise, yes.
Mm? How so?What you're listing are mostly trappings, not themes or design spaces.
There's nothing wrong with having trappings, but if you try to use them as a design guide for mechanics and limitations, you'll find you've painted yourself into a corner, just like 2e did.
I have high hopes that when we see Lunars, we'll think that it's worth losing the Sun's advantages to play with the Moon's toys.Let's list what abilities the Solars have exclusive access to.
Supernal Abilities, which allow them to very quickly gain supremacy in the chosen ability.
MA Mastery effects which make their MA charms better than anyone else's, with the possible exception of the Sidereals.
Solar Circle Sorcery.
Innate Evocations, which are Evocations from equipment that become permanent Charm like effects for the Solar, usable with any artifacts of similar function.
N/A artifact construction.
Wyld Shaping Technique notes that only Solars have the will to shape the Wyld as they wish.
And there may be others I'm not remembering.
Solars are undeniably the top dogs in 3e.
I have high hopes that when we see Lunars, we'll think that it's worth losing the Sun's advantages to play with the Moon's toys.
In the E setting, maybe.I think Lunars are going to be defined by a faction split.
Something like: "We ave a duty to Luna and to Creation to aid the Solars!" vs "No, fuck that, we don't need anybody, we can save Creation all by ourselves!"
In the E setting, maybe.
I'd prefer that they weren't defined by their connection to the Solar Exalted this time, though
My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.Mm? How so?
I view them as high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.
Ah.My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.
They're intended to be both inclusive and exclusive, to both claim design space and deny themselves other design space. They are interwoven, but not strictly hierarchical. They are framed in roles, with none stealing or pervasively overshadowing the roles of the others.
For example, let's look at Solar vs. Lunar:
Solar - General, Priest, Sorcerer-King
Lunar - Champion, Special Ops, Trailblazer
In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.
If the Lunar does this by changing shape, that's fine. If the Lunar does this without changing shape, that's also fine. Changing shape is a trapping: not a role, and not a design pillar. Changing shape tells you nothing about whether you'll win a conflict or lose it. It's an decoration, not a pillar.
That's a problem 2e had: it mistook decorations for pillars.
Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.Every kind of Exalt is meant to be able to hold a number of roles. That's always been the case, because mixed circles are not the assumption the game makes.
And this is where you are absolutely wrong.Limiting the Exalted like that would be a change for no purpose, with no ground. It's not necessary, it doesn't fit the setting, and it's not going to make the game better.
Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.
And this is where you are absolutely wrong.
The setting explicitly says that things worked best when Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and Dragonbloods worked together. That's how the Primordial War was won. That's how the glories of the First Age were built.
And yet, every edition gives no particular impetus to actually do anything like that.
The game's own mechanics have been untrue to the setting.
My formulation is a fix for that.
I... I can't even begin to understand how you come to this conclusion. The 'pillars' you describe are just affectations and decoration. Things that happened because of politics. Politics that ended with the Usurpation.My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.
They're intended to be both inclusive and exclusive, to both claim design space and deny themselves other design space. They are interwoven, but not strictly hierarchical. They are framed in roles, with none stealing or pervasively overshadowing the roles of the others.
For example, let's look at Solar vs. Lunar:
Solar - General, Priest, Sorcerer-King
Lunar - Champion, Special Ops, Trailblazer
In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.
If the Lunar does this by changing shape, that's fine. If the Lunar does this without changing shape, that's also fine. Changing shape is a trapping: not a role, and not a design pillar. Changing shape tells you nothing about whether you'll win a conflict or lose it. It's an decoration, not a pillar.
That's a problem 2e had: it mistook decorations for pillars.
If you look closely, you'll notice the dragonbloods have certain advantages they didn't have before -- they can access Solar-exclusive evocations with enough training, which no other splat has been indicated to be capable of.
So have I, but I've also come to realise that just because someone really really wants to play an alchemical, doesn't mean I need to drop my plans for it.Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.
Beyond the different processes to the same tasks, the synergy of multiple Exalts working together, and the whole "All the Exalted working together" thing?And this is where you are absolutely wrong.
The setting explicitly says that things worked best when Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and Dragonbloods worked together. That's how the Primordial War was won. That's how the glories of the First Age were built.
And yet, every edition gives no particular impetus to actually do anything like that.
You suggest restriction and limitation.The game's own mechanics have been untrue to the setting.
My formulation is a fix for that.
It's all about the side stuff.Working together doesn't mean what you think it means.
Solars were the leaders, Lunars were their seconds, Sids were their untrustworthy advisors, DB were their pissy minions. Working together meant they were working towards the same ends instead of against each other. At no point were they ever equals. Solars were always acknowledged as the supreme Exalted, even during the War.
And, in a mixed game, who wants to play a character that absolutely cannot ever compare to one or more of the others? In D&D, it'd be like playing a fighter in a group of wizards/clerics/druids/psions. They'd never actually be useful unless they were the only option. They'd always be second class. And nobody wants to play that.
You're not reading what I'm saying, since it ought to be pretty obvious that General and King are not "equal" to Lieutenant or Soldier.Working together doesn't mean what you think it means.
Solars were the leaders, Lunars were their seconds, Sids were their untrustworthy advisors, DB were their pissy minions. Working together meant they were working towards the same ends instead of against each other. At no point were they ever equals. Solars were always acknowledged as the supreme Exalted, even during the War.
That's an excellent argument against making Solars better than everyone at everything.And, in a mixed game, who wants to play a character that absolutely cannot ever compare to one or more of the others? In D&D, it'd be like playing a fighter in a group of wizards/clerics/druids/psions. They'd never actually be useful unless they were the only option. They'd always be second class. And nobody wants to play that.
Being the best possible General isn't an affectation, and it's certainly not a mere political contrivance. It's a matter of pure merit.I... I can't even begin to understand how you come to this conclusion. The 'pillars' you describe are just affectations and decoration. Things that happened because of politics. Politics that ended with the Usurpation.
Let me get this straight.The Core concepts, the 'Pillars' as you call them, of exalts are the same as the Incarne that empowers them. The core of a Solar's abilities are Perfection and Victory because that is what Ignis Divine represents. The core of a Lunar's abilities are Endurance and Adaptation because that's what Luna represents.
Being an Exalt isn't just being given power, it's being tied to a Conceptual Being on a fundamental level. And taking part of its concepts into yourself. But concepts can be set to many applications. Lunars can become great kings because they Adapt to the situation. Solars can become master thieves because they reach for Perfection in all that they do.
-edited: No directly copying material.-Got a source for that? Cause by my reading, the only Solar exclusive part of Evocations is Innate Evocations - nobody else can get those.
It's all about the side stuff.
Solars should have the best raw power. They lead, rule, look really shiny.
But, they can't just fly into another country without someone noticing, not like a Lunar. They don't have four sisters, each a fellow martial artist of equal skill. They'll never make a city dodge, not unless it's also a giant robot.
Solar charms should be linear, working directly without bending their meanings. A Solar can shoot an arrow really well, but can't kill someone by shooting them with an apology.
That's their limit. They have the mother of all hammers, so if it's a nail, they hammer. Everyone else gets a hammer and someother tool, except the Sidereals who get a computer and have to order stuff off the internet.
That's an excellent argument against making Solars better than everyone at everything.
In my formulation, single-splat groups are valid. They just play differently from each other.Also, I'm not arguing for non-mixed circles being mandatory. I'm arguing for them being valid.
I suggest honesty in design. Not everyone can do everything in exactly the same ways.You suggest restriction and limitation.
In essence, reduction.
I disagree with the fundamentals of your idea. At the very least aim to define the roles positively.
See, this is exactly the problem with Lunars.Rather than taking away Solar stealth, give Lunars better stealth; Like the ability to turn into any animal that might be in the are- Oh.
Well, my point is that it should help you win sometimes.
Until the other splats come out, we can't even be sure of that, but yeah. It seems like 3e is a step in the right direction.It should be noted that Solars don't seem to really embody perfection anymore. They're better than everyone, but not unbeatable.
The Sun is a better thief than Luna.Sol Invictus was never a thief or a trickster.
Luna is a consummate thief and a trickster.
You think that being tide to Sol's "conceptual being" ought to make you a better thief than that Lunar.
IMHO that's a flaw.
Yes. In the group I run, one of them (A ninja) infiltrates under cover of night, and then the wandering monk walks in the front gate and breaks everything.In my formulation, single-splat groups are valid. They just play differently from each other.
Like, if the Solar group needs to infiltrate a location? They don't do this by dressing up as ninjas under cover of night. They have other, distinctly Solar, ways of doing things.
I never said they'd do it in the same ways. I said that they take the same roles.I suggest honesty in design. Not everyone can do everything in exactly the same ways.
... Yes, it does help. It helps quite a bit. For one thing, every Lunar can do the bird thing, not just the ones with Athletics 5 and four or five Charms dedicated to it. Also, they can change direction in the air without a stunt and the risk of hitting the ground wrong.See, this is exactly the problem with Lunars.
They turn into an animal and it doesn't help.
Victory and Perfection are better than "turning into an animal", and they always will be, and that means there's no point in turning into an animal.
It's a fundamental disconnect in the 2e mechanics, and I don't want to see it carried forward.
Lunar: "I can turn into a bird and fly over that mountain! It's a tactical limitation but it's super cool!"
Solar: "I can just jump over that mountain. I suffer no tactical limitations and move faster than you did."
This is toxic to game design.See, he's the Unconquered Sun. If it's a thing, he does it better than anyone else.
Nobody said s/he is "just" a thief, so I have to ask if you're trying to attack an argument which was not actually made.Luna is not so easily pinned down, by the way. She's a thief, but He'll never steal nor lie except She did just a few moments ago.
Luna is all possible Moons, not just a trickster archtype or a barbarian hunter.
I know. That's the thing I've said that I dislike: the power of Sol Invictus doing things which are very un-Sol Invictus-like because "I Win Everything" allows everything.Yes. In the group I run, one of them (A ninja) infiltrates under cover of night, and then the wandering monk walks in the front gate and breaks everything.
Both Solars.
How is that un-Sol Invictus-like? He hides his glory every single day. That's what night is. That's why Night Castes are the stealth specialists.I know. That's the thing I've said that I dislike: the power of Sol Invictus doing things which are very un-Sol Invictus-like because "I Win Everything" allows everything.
Night Caste is a great example of a bad idea getting enshrined specifically because the designers needed to check that box on the mechanical grid.How is that un-Sol Invictus-like? He hides his glory every single day. That's what night is. That's why Night Castes are the stealth specialists.
Letting other people shine is an admirable thing to do.There's nothing stopping him from keeping the sun in the sky all the time, he chooses to not do so and hide away his glory so that the other Incarne can display their power half of the time.