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Exalted 3E Discussion

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Nekraa said:
If taken by surprise,
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Whenever I saw someone suggest they'd be taken by surprise the pro Exalt response is "they have some ability or charm or whatever that auto makes them not caught by surprise and have detected the attack coming ahead of time so you can't surprise any of them with an attack ever."
 
HeWhoWasMarduk said:
That's a NLF.
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No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't overpower a perfect defense, that's why it's a perfect defense.

Rani said:
Whenever I saw someone suggest they'd be taken by surprise the pro Exalt response is "they have some ability or charm or whatever that auto makes them not caught by surprise and have detected the attack coming ahead of time so you can't surprise any of them with an attack ever."
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Well yeah, bad debaters. Most of the time it seems to be a Schrödinger's solar, with all charms they need for all situations. Disregarding the fact that it's not feasible (or if it is, a problem with the mechanics. Exalted has a lot of those).
 
Nekraa said:
No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't overpower a perfect defense, that's why it's a perfect defense.
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I'm quite sure they can't perfectly defend against a fucking planet landing on their head.
 
Vyor, these people think that it can block reality warping wave that would erase infinite amount of Exalted universes.

And yes, that's the thing that happened. Exalted versus True Crimson King went on for twenty pages.

Trying to reason with them is impossible.
 
Nekraa said:
No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't overpower a perfect defense, that's why it's a perfect defense.
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That's not how it works as you have to provide evidence. For a hypothetical setting that's being versed against Exalted I could just as easily go:
No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't defend against a perfect attack, that's why it's a perfect attack.

See the issue with that? Why does Exalted gain primacy when both settings are considered to be equal when concerning metaphysics?
 
HeWhoWasMarduk said:
That's not how it works as you have to provide evidence. For a hypothetical setting that's being versed against Exalted I could just as easily go:
No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't defend against a perfect attack, that's why it's a perfect attack.

See the issue with that? Why does Exalted gain primacy when both settings are considered to be equal when concerning metaphysics?
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Well, personally I avoid the immovable object vs infinite force argument. It's just no winning that one.

In exalted, the immovable object wins. But if you deal with another setting with infinite force that can't be blocked even by immovable objects, then yeah. No victory for either side, really.

Would continue, but I need sleep, and I'm honestly not invested in this. And also this:
TLW said:
But yeah, this discussion should move to Exalted thread on this board. We're getting off-topic.
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HeWhoWasMarduk said:
That's not how it works as you have to provide evidence. For a hypothetical setting that's being versed against Exalted I could just as easily go:
No. They are described both in and out of setting to be undefeatable. You can't defend against a perfect attack, that's why it's a perfect attack.
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There's no issue. If such a thing really exists in another setting, then you simply can't do vs between that setting and Exalted. So what?

I mean, yes, Exalted wins basically all times. So what? That is not what the NLF is about.
 
vyor said:
Yes it is. That's explicitly what it's about.
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No, the No Limits Fallacy doesn't mean "But setting will always win!". That's boring, but not a fallacy, but in fact the valid and correct conclusion. Do you even know what a fallacy is?

The No Limits Fallacy is about scaling up in-universe descriptions to a point that scaling up is not reasonable anymore. But given how Exalted works, with reality itself its bitch, perfect defence meaning perfect defence is not a fallacy. Boring, but not a fallacy.
 
Susano said:
No, the No Limits Fallacy doesn't mean "But setting will always win!". That's boring, but not a fallacy, but in fact the valid and correct conclusion. Do you even know what a fallacy is?

The No Limits Fallacy is about scaling up in-universe descriptions to a point that scaling up is not reasonable anymore. But given how Exalted works, with reality itself its bitch, perfect defence meaning perfect defence is not a fallacy. Boring, but not a fallacy.
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Except that motes can run out, and they treat the barrage attack as defending against all attacks thrown, but no, that does not apply when the barrage can be several hours long.
 
The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold.
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It's a form of "Proof by Example".

Not gonna debate "are Exalted perfects a form of NLF?", just posting the NLF definition for general edification.

EDIT: Not gonna debate it in this thread, I mean. If someone could tell me what's the appropriate thread?
 
If anyone knows where the Exalted thread is can they post a link?

vyor said:
I'm quite sure they can't perfectly defend against a fucking planet landing on their head.
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Yes they can. There are several infinite damage weapons in Exalted. There are multiple characters who have bodies bigger than a planet (there is one who is infinite in size).

You can use a perfect defense against attacks from them, and they will work (You are still probably going to lose though).


Rani said:
Whenever I saw someone suggest they'd be taken by surprise the pro Exalt response is "they have some ability or charm or whatever that auto makes them not caught by surprise and have detected the attack coming ahead of time so you can't surprise any of them with an attack ever."
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That doesn't make them unbeatable, and that ability costs motes. The Exalt will run out of motes eventually, and they can't use perfects forever.

The issue is that sometimes people aren't debating a specific Solar, but rather "Schrodinger's solar".

vyor said:
Except that motes can run out, and they treat the barrage attack as defending against all attacks thrown, but no, that does not apply when the barrage can be several hours long.
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I am not sure exactly what you are saying here. Could you explain?

Anyways, some info on perfect defenses.

Against Attacks (not social attacks) there are basically 3 types of Perfect Defenses: Soak, Parry, Dodge. Soak reduces damage to 0, the other 2 do what there name suggests.

Most Perfect Defenses only defend against 1 attack. If they attack you multiple times you have to activate it for each.

There are upgrades to some perfect defenses that allow you to spend more motes to make them last 1 tick (about 1 second), or spend more motes and a willpower point to make them last 1 action.***

There are some which have different lengths.
The Unconquered Sun's Aegis is permanently on as long as he acts in a temperate manner (which means no lying, no breaking promises, no over indulgence, etc), and he can still use it like a normal perfect defense if he has suppressed his temperance.

There are 2 martial arts charms which last the entire scene (Meaning the current fight), but they don't work on every attack.
"The Mirror Does Not Lie" allows you to change the target of an attack to someone else, but it only works if someone sees the attack and there is another target (so it is useless in a 1 on 1 combat).
"Great Thinker's Defense Maneuver" works as long as you aren't surrounded, and it doesn't work if the person attacking you has a equal or higher essence score.



***An action is basically what it says it is. It means while you are performing a action. Like swinging a sword, or such (and I think the back swing as well). It usually lasts longer than 1 tick. It isn't referring to stuff like writing a speech though.
IIRC on average an action in Combat takes 4-6 ticks. That is the basic idea about it. It is a bit more complex than this. Stuff like flurries count as 1 action.
 
Graypairofsocks said:
If anyone knows where the Exalted thread is can they post a link?
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Here.


As for the Perfect Defense debate, it's fucking pointless.

I used to be able to build up some spite and vitriol over the whole thing, but I really can't anymore. People are just plain unwilling to listen to each other's arguments, preferring instead to build up a Strawman they can beat up to farm likes off of whichever side of the debate they come down on.

Just watch cat videos for a superior use of your time. That at least will leave you with some good feelings at the end of it.
 
vyor said:
I'm quite sure they can't perfectly defend against a fucking planet landing on their head.
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Some explicit examples of things that perfect defenses canonically work fine against include 600-mile-tall mountains falling on you, planet-size magic scorpions, planetary-scale-destruction fiery death beams, and the attacks of primordial titans, one of which is a Dyson shell larger than a planet.

"Perfect" isn't really the right word for 3rd edition, though, since there they specifically only have that broad protection against large-scale damage (landslides, explosions), and are merely very helpful instead of always automatically perfect against smaller attacks (lightning bolts, swords, etc).
 
Yeah, pls staph with the VS debates. Nothing good comes of it, this site is for lewdz (mostly), please pretty please go to SB or SV for VS.

Though I will comment that indeed, the flaw of 99% of VS debates was that they pitted a generic 'Essence 10, no XP limits' Solar against a given threat. Even setting aside mechanics abuse, the prospect of an omnitactical hydra with all possible combos of all possible Charms (at the time when Combos costed XPs) was genuinely nightmare-inducing, even though such a Solar did not - could reasonably not - exist in the setting.

I also think that what contributed to a lot of overhype for Exalted's VS potential were the comments of some developpers, including Michael Goodwin (Nephilpal on the old WW forums), I think. For example, that he had written the Solar 'immunity to all mortals ever' Charm suite for around Essence 4? (in the context of mortals with access to real world modern technology and military infrastructure, or even extrapolating to arbitrary technology level: 'mortals don't get to win, not with technology, not without, they just... don't').
And it sorta snowballed from there when discussing other fictional entities, I guess.
 
vyor said:
Except that motes can run out, and they treat the barrage attack as defending against all attacks thrown, but no, that does not apply when the barrage can be several hours long.
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So Exalted Perfects are not NLFs, there are simply shitty debaters. Which was the point, it wasn't "who would win?" but "are Perfect defenses NLFs." They're not. Just like, for example, Yang Xiao Long can't boost her attack power infinitely with her Semblance but some debaters claim she can(DeathBattles, Ho!).


WarpVortex said:
The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold.
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It's a form of "Proof by Example".
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The real wank in Exalted is some of the stuff in the lore. You'd think the people were drawing/writing one handed.

From what I have scene the most reoccurring things are random boobs in the artwork, and at distant second futa.

A really weird example with Kimbery (quote is from the ink monkeys):
"With her corrosive waters, she impregnates those things which come within her reach and catch her eye—buildings, caverns, outcroppings, islands, icebergs, bones, shells, grains of sand, trees, demons, ghosts and mortals—infusing them with her progenitive Essence."
For referrence Kimbery is an ocean.
 
Graypairofsocks said:
I am not sure exactly what you are saying here. Could you explain?
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So there are rules that state that a rapid flurry of strikes counts as 1 attack for certain perfect defences, right? Now, this makes sense to a certain point... until you extrapolate that to mean "it doesn't matter how many attacks are thrown over any time period it still counts as 1 attack" which I have seen done several times.
 
vyor said:
So there are rules that state that a rapid flurry of strikes counts as 1 attack for certain perfect defences, right? Now, this makes sense to a certain point... until you extrapolate that to mean "it doesn't matter how many attacks are thrown over any time period it still counts as 1 attack" which I have seen done several times.
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It depends on the attack and, from a mechanics standpoint, how many times you roll dice for that attack.
 
vyor said:
Right, see, they like to extrapolate it out to, say, a macross missile massacre. Or artillery bombardment. Or machine guns.
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A Macross missile spam should righteously count as environmental hazard :p
(The fact that a single use of a PD protects against a whole interval of environmental hazard has nothing to do with that ;))
 
vyor said:
So there are rules that state that a rapid flurry of strikes counts as 1 attack for certain perfect defences, right? Now, this makes sense to a certain point... until you extrapolate that to mean "it doesn't matter how many attacks are thrown over any time period it still counts as 1 attack" which I have seen done several times.
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Discrete attacks from a single character max out at 5 per turn in 2e, including using rapid-fire weapons like machine guns. The exception is magic that generates separate attacks instead of using the normal flurry system, but I don't think any of the printed ones go substantially over 5, and the point of them is to let you quasi-flurry without dealing with the downsides of flurrying, rather than just making more attacks in general.
 
Tambourine said:
Discrete attacks from a single character max out at 5 per turn in 2e, including using rapid-fire weapons like machine guns. The exception is magic that generates separate attacks instead of using the normal flurry system, but I don't think any of the printed ones go substantially over 5, and the point of them is to let you quasi-flurry without dealing with the downsides of flurrying, rather than just making more attacks in general.
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Miniguns laugh at limits like that.

Because 13,000 separate attacks per minute translates to several hundred a second.

Game mechanics=/=fluff and you can't apply game mechanics related to turns to other characters without very good reason.
 
vyor said:
Right, see, they like to extrapolate it out to, say, a macross missile massacre. Or artillery bombardment. Or machine guns.
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The first is an environmental hazard, the second would probably be multiple attacks if they don't hit while the explosion from the previous strike is still going on , and the third is a single attack from each gun.
vyor said:
Miniguns laugh at limits like that.
Because 13,000 separate attacks per minute translates to several hundred a second.
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Cloud of bullets=five attacks.
+counterattack= even if you are hundreds of meters away they are now right behind you, putting their fist through your spine.
Or even worse than that, talking to you.

And this is assuming that they are a Solar.
An Infernal can literally pull a Ramiel;

edit:
In fact, thinking of a Perfect Defense as an limited-use A.T. Field is a pretty good comparison.
Right down to getting sniped if attacked in the proper manner or if you run out of power.
 
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Sydonai said:
Cloud of bullets=five attacks.
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The fuck kind of minigun fires a cloud?


Shotgun type weapons, that would be a cloud. A minigun is just a stream of death.

Sydonai said:
The first is an environmental hazard,
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Bullshit.

Sydonai said:
the second would probably be multiple attacks if they don't hit while the explosion from the previous strike is still going on ,
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Why would it count as anything other than multiple attacks?


Sydonai said:
+counterattack= even if you are hundreds of meters away they are now right behind you, putting their fist through your spine.
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Bullshit.

Sydonai said:
An Infernal can literally pull a Ramiel;
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Again: Bullshit.
 
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