Exalted 3E Discussion

[Sydonai]

A minigun is just a stream of death.

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Stream, cloud, it still doesn't count as a separate attack for each bullet.

Again: Bullshit.

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They have Charms specifically designed around being a Ramiel-expy, apparently one or more of the writers were Eva fans.
They also have a Charms that lets them emulate a Shoggoth.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

I am pretty sure you have to parry each attack in a flurry separately.

Exceptions to this are from charms like "One Weapon, Two Blows", which allows you do 2 attacks as one, but allows a single perfect to defend against both of them.

 

[vyor]

Stream, cloud, it still doesn't count as a separate attack for each bullet.

They have Charms specifically designed around being a Ramiel-expy, apparently one or more of the writers were Eva fans.

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Citation needed.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

Discrete attacks from a single character max out at 5 per turn in 2e, including using rapid-fire weapons like machine guns. The exception is magic that generates separate attacks instead of using the normal flurry system, but I don't think any of the printed ones go substantially over 5, and the point of them is to let you quasi-flurry without dealing with the downsides of flurrying, rather than just making more attacks in general.

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The flurry rules make more sense for stuff like melee weapons or bows, but not for rapid fire crossbows or guns.


Anyways there are flurry charms that go over 5 attacks, one that comes to mind is "Principal of Motion" but the maximum number of actions you can withdraw from it is limited to your essence + 1.

 

[Sydonai]

Citation needed.

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"Heuristic Logos Shintai" and "All-Devouring Depths Shintai".
edit:
Some of the stuff on that site is homebrew, but these two aren't.

 

[vyor]

"Heuristic Logos Shintai" and "All-Devouring Depths Shintai".

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A defence/buff charm and a charm that makes them into a goo monster.

No giant fuck off laser beams.

 

[Sydonai]

A defence/buff charm and a charm that makes them into a goo monster.

No giant fuck off laser beams.

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.

• She can use Principle-Invoking Onslaught as an innate power rather than a Charm activation, paying nothing to do so. She has no limit on the number of independent clinches she can maintain.
• Her effective Strength with Mind-Hand Manipulation triples, the range of her telekinesis increases to (Essence x 300) yards and the rate of telekinetic striking attacks rises to 10. She can choose for telekinetic attacks to encompass an entire complementary unit in mass combat, systematically sweeping through the ranks with cold efficiency. This doubles the raw damage of the attack and ensures that all casualties lost to it can be killed, permitted to desert or maimed as the Infernal dictates.

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[Roquemore]

The flurry rules make more sense for stuff like melee weapons or bows, but not for rapid fire crossbows or guns.

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Shards of the Exalted Dream has rapid-fire modern weapon rules. They have the Strafing tag that allows targeting multiple opponents with each attack, but still max out at 5 attacks per turn.

 

[Biigoh]

I'm using 2nd edition stats as that's what most people are familiar with.

Please note that range in 1st and 2nd edition can be increased (double, triple) if you're willing to take dice penalty or have charms to boost range.

Basically, thrown weapons + charms while they don't do as much damage or have as much range as archery has interesting tricks and if your DM is reasonable, you can transcribe archery charms into thrown.

And yes, Cascade of Cutting Terror is to darken the skies with thrown weapons, and can be 'flurried' in multiple attacks in a single 'action/tick', or comboed with extra action charms.

Sling of Deadly Prowess (1 dot thrown artifact)
While many Exalts enjoy using flashy weapons such as powerbows and daiklaves, others prefer having more subtle armaments that can be easily hidden in a pocket or the side of a boot. This sling consists of a cord and pouch that appear to have been exquisitely carved or forged from a single piece of one of the five magical materials. Unless it is attuned to someone, this sling is solid and infl exible. If the character spends three points of Essence to attune herself to this item, it becomes ready to use. The bonus provided by the sling's magical material is the same as for other Artifact thrown weapons, except that the Range increases as for bows.

Speed 5 (-1 speed if Jade), Accuracy +2 (+1 if Orichalcum or Moonsilver or Starmetal, +2 if soulsteel), Damage +4L (+1 if Orichalcum, +2 if Starmetal or Soulsteel), Rate 2, Range 150 (+50 if Orichalcum or Jade, +100 if Moonsilver)
Minimum Strength 1, Minimum Dexterity 2, Attune 3 motes, no tags.

Infinite Jade Chakram (2 dot thrown artifact)
The signature Immaculate magical weapon for Air-aspected monks is the infi nite jade chakram. This weapon is similar in appearance to a normal chakram and is always made out of blue jade. The chakram can be thrown again and again without ever truly leaving the character's hand. This gives the weapon an extraordinary Rate and allows Immaculate characters to make their maximum number of attacks per action without regard for ammunition. The phantom chakrams fade as soon as their flight is done and damage is inflicted. The infi nite jade chakram material bonus from the jade is already included in its profi le, but the jade (and the Exalt's attunement) is an integral part of the weapon's magical nature. They cannot be made out of any material but blue jade, and they cannot be used except by Exalts who are attuned to the jade's magical material bonus.

Speed 4, Accuracy +0, Damage +4L, Rate 4, Range 50
Minimum Strength 1, Minimum Dexterity 3, Attune 5 motes, Tags (returns instantly)

Cascade of Cutting Terror

1st Edition, Corebook Page 169 - 5 motes to use
The character hurls dozens or even hundreds of Essence duplicates of his favored throwing weapon, saturating an area with countless attacks. The character doubles his Thrown pool for the purposes of the attack, which cannot be dodged, only blocked. This attack effects only a single individual. However, it can be used for utility purposes - for example, to clear tree branches and undergrowth from the façade of an overgrown stepped pyramid or to ruin the rigging of a ship. The thrown weapons fade away a few seconds after impact. The character need not have any actual copies of the weapon he is conjuring.

2nd Edition, Corebook Page 196 - 5 motes to use
In the First Age, not even the most elusive demons could escape the Solars' judgment. This Charm supplements a Thrown-based attack, filling the air with dozens or hundreds of duplicates of the Lawgiver's thrown weapon. This Charm renders the target's Dodge DV inapplicable against this attack. It also doubles the Solar's successes on the attack roll before comparing it to defense, in Step 3 of attack resolution.

3rd Edition, Corebook Page 416 - 5 motes + 1 willpower to use
Once per combat, the Solar can unleash this attack against a single target, giving her the full dice benefits of having used a full Thrown Excellency. This attack cannot be dodged, only blocked. If successful, the attack is joined by dozens or hundreds of copied weapons, striking points all around the target, doing twice the damage successes to all significant objects and insignificant opponents within short range of the initial strike. If the Exalt wins Join Battle and opens with this attack, she does not need to take an aim action to launch it from medium or long range.

The Solar can reset Cascade of Cutting Terror by hurling away her last missile and then recovering at least a single throwing weapon with a stunt.

 

[Anasurimbor]

The fuck kind of minigun fires a cloud?
Shotgun type weapons, that would be a cloud. A minigun is just a stream of death.

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No giant fuck off laser beams.

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Solar Circle Sorcery includes literal giant fuck off laser beams of extended duration that carve through armies and solid rock with ease. While they really, really hurt if they hit you, they still only count as 1 attack per round despite being a continuous stream. Don't assume such representations are necessarily nerfs—individual attacks are only threatening if they have a reasonable chance of hitting. A volley of arrows from a thousand elite soldiers may be represented as a single attack, but this actually makes it more rather than less dangerous.

 

[Bre Karn]

The fuck kind of minigun fires a cloud?

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Shards of the Exalted Dream has stats for guns, artillery, etc. They are not an OOC problem for Exalts (though they can be lethal), even in variants in which characters are supposed to be weaker than the vanilla game (Heaven's Reach, for example, explicitly forbids Exalts with an Essence greater than 5 IIRC).

If anyone wants to repost the shotgun and submachinegun statblocks on p. 142, be my guest, but I'm not dealing with the formatting nightmare of copypasting or taking the time to rewrite it manually. I can still lift a few quotes though:

ARTILLERY
Large guns requiring vehicles and many personnel are
better used as set pieces than standard individual weapons.
However, they may still be used to make attacks. Smaller
artillery uses (Dexterity + Firearms) to attack, while larger
pieces use (Intelligence + Firearms). Like the artillery found
in Scroll of Kings, without explicit exception one cannot
apply Charms other than Excellencies to their use.
Artillery requires spotters to use properly. This allows
other characters in communication with the gunner himself
to engage in teamwork on the same Attack action, offsetting
the otherwise low Accuracy of these weapons. If they are
fast enough to be fired regularly in normal combat, they will
have a Speed of 7. Otherwise, their Speeds are measured in
long ticks. Their Damage is rarely less than 15L, their Rate
2 at the most, and their Range is usually measured in miles.
These weapons do not receive specific statistics,
because they can be so varied, ranging from small burst
anti-personnel weapons, mine scattering, anti-tank, and
149 APPENDIX: A THOUSAND LITTLE PIECES
siege weaponry. Each tends to be ill-suited to applications
outside of its design, with Accuracy of up to +2 when used
properly and as low as -3 when used outside its specification.
Explosive munitions are worth specific mention, as the
smaller types may apply a single attack against all valid targets
within 3 yards of their impact point. This is the standard
for anti-personnel and anti-vehicle artillery.

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Bullshit.

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Sadly, the original quotes were lost when WW's forums were rebooted, but some of them were saved in old posts from SB: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/exalted-force-add.145233/page-3#post-3989056 Pretty telling, aren't they?
(Note that Nephilpal has been confirmed as being Michael Goodwin, actual Exalted author until relatively late in 2nd Edition. His views have no bearing on 3rd edition though, since several of its writers actively despise his 'mortals don't matter against Exalts' paradigm).

An afterword:
Look, pal, you should just calm the fuck off. While some Exalted arguments can degenerate into wankfests, the fact that the game system is to the advantage of heroics and over the top bullshit like flipping over mechs as a normal-sized human or riding the blast wave of a nuke, is intended. That it results in endless bitchfests around questions like "Can perfect defenses tank the Death Star's superlaser" or "Can Q/Lucifer Morningstar omnipotentate their way through Shaping Defenses" (no, please, don't fucking answer this) is an unfortunate side effect, but you don't have to go all belligerent shithead in the present circumstances.

That being said, I'd like to let the matter rest and instead, maybe, discuss the Moonsilver Pants of Volcano Diddling in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness or maybe some gift-themed homebrew Charms (Christmas yo!) if anyone has any on their backburner.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

Shards of the Exalted Dream has rapid-fire modern weapon rules. They have the Strafing tag that allows targeting multiple opponents with each attack, but still max out at 5 attacks per turn.

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I am pretty sure that is either balance or related to recoil.

I haven't found any rule against making more than 5 attacks per action, although you can't normally do that without flurries.

Solar Circle Sorcery includes literal giant fuck off laser beams of extended duration that carve through armies and solid rock with ease. While they really, really hurt if they hit you, they still only count as 1 attack per round despite being a continuous stream. Don't assume such representations are necessarily nerfs—individual attacks are only threatening if they have a reasonable chance of hitting. A volley of arrows from a thousand elite soldiers may be represented as a single attack, but this actually makes it more rather than less dangerous.

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I am pretty sure we shouldn't bring the mass combat rules into this.

 

[Bre Karn]

I haven't found any rule against making more than 5 attacks per action, although you can't normally do that without flurries.

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Rate is limited to 5 as per Scroll of Errata IIRC. Extra-Action Charms can overrule this.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

Rate is limited to 5 as per Scroll of Errata IIRC. Extra-Action Charms can overrule this.

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I believe you are thinking about Infinite rate weapons are just Rate 6.

 

[Bre Karn]

I believe you are thinking about Infinite rate weapons are just Rate 6.

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Possibly. I have not GMed an Exalted game in over a year (and then, it was a 3red session), so I'm a little fuzzy on the rules.

 

[vyor]

Sadly, the original quotes were lost when WW's forums were rebooted, but some of them were saved in old posts from SB: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/exalted-force-add.145233/page-3#post-3989056 Pretty telling, aren't they?
(Note that Nephilpal has been confirmed as being Michael Goodwin, actual Exalted author until relatively late in 2nd Edition. His views have no bearing on 3rd edition though, since several of its writers actively despise his 'mortals don't matter against Exalts' paradigm).

An afterword:

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I really don't care what WoG says when the rules explicitly disagree.

Look, pal, you should just calm the fuck off.

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Still calm.

While some Exalted arguments can degenerate into wankfests, the fact that the game system is to the advantage of heroics and over the top bullshit like flipping over mechs as a normal-sized human or riding the blast wave of a nuke, is intended. That it results in endless bitchfests around questions like "Can perfect defenses tank the Death Star's superlaser" or "Can Q/Lucifer Morningstar omnipotentate their way through Shaping Defenses" (no, please, don't fucking answer this) is an unfortunate side effect,

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Except that exalted still aren't the most powerful things in their own universe, why would they be more powerful than things in other universes? I mean, a dresden files archangel can galaxy kill, I don't think one of them would have an issue killing an exalt.

 

[Sydonai]

I really don't care what WoG says when the rules explicitly disagree.

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Then it's a good thing that this is not the case.

 

[vyor]

Then it's a good thing that this is not the case.

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Do tell me what a solar without motes is going to be able to do to a guy in a fucking tank.

 

[Roquemore]

Do tell me what a solar without motes is going to be able to do to a guy in a fucking tank.

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Wuxia jump on top of the tank, flip around all badass crazy to avoid the machine guns on top, maybe pull the guy out of one of the hatches if he can force it open.

Remember, Charms come on top of the basic "kung fu action movie protagonist with world-class skills in several fields and nerves of steel" package.

 

[vyor]

Wuxia jump on top of the tank, flip around all badass crazy to avoid the machine guns on top, maybe pull the guy out of one of the hatches if he can force it open.

Remember, Charms come on top of the basic "kung fu action movie protagonist with world-class skills in several fields and nerves of steel" package.

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He gets shot as he's jumping. Or shot from outside of his actual jump range. Or the tank moves, pretty sure 60 kph is faster than a moteless exalt.

If he can dodge the 155 mm tank round? Well that's why we have anti infantry shot:

 

[Roquemore]

He gets shot as he's jumping. Or shot from outside of his actual jump range.

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"World-class skills" can also apply to dodging things, so that tank's going to need a peak-human gunner/commander to actually keep up with a combat-focused Exalt with enough reliability to hit him. Think Captain America, except with wuxia-style things tossed in like being able to jump 30 feet from a standing start.

Or the tank moves, pretty sure 60 kph is faster than a moteless exalt.

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Combat speed goes up to 33 yards/second or 108 km/h (Dexterity 5, using the Dash action every turn), so, he may well be able to outrun the tank quite effectively, at least until things drag on long enough for fatigue to be a factor.

I'm also kind of confused by your goalposts here, because I don't really see how "the tank could run away" is a loss for the guy making the tank run away.

 

[vyor]

"World-class skills" can also apply to dodging things, so that tank's going to need a peak-human gunner/commander to actually keep up with a combat-focused Exalt with enough reliability to hit him. Think Captain America, except with wuxia-style things tossed in like being able to jump 30 feet from a standing start.


Combat speed goes up to 33 yards/second or 108 km/h (Dexterity 5, using the Dash action every turn), so, he may well be able to outrun the tank quite effectively, at least until things drag on long enough for fatigue to be a factor.

I'm also kind of confused by your goalposts here, because I don't really see how "the tank could run away" is a loss for the guy making the tank run away.

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Because tanks have very long range.

And you don't need a peak human gunner, we have computers.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Oh joy.

This shit.

You have no idea how much I missed these little arguments. Really, you don't.

 

[Roquemore]

And you don't need a peak human gunner, we have computers.

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Now you've gone from "a guy in a tank" to "a guy in a tank with self-aiming guns". I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure those don't actually exist.

 

[vyor]

Now you've gone from "a guy in a tank" to "a guy in a tank with self-aiming guns". I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure those don't actually exist.

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http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-arma...be-reduced-due-high-degree-automation-1972882

Tada~

 

[Biigoh]

vyor, Tambourine... going to say a few things here.

As someone who is an EXTREMELY old hand at exalt... I think the only one with more experience than me on this forum is Merior...

I can safely say this...

Exalts are NOT invincible.

Solar Exalts are NOT invincible.

There are things IN the Exalted setting, that would eat any given Exalt with insufficient essence alive.

The reasons why the Exalted won against the Primordials comes down to a few factors; Infrastructure (the Mountain Folk + Autochton geared the exalts up like mad), Surprise (it started with an ambush/assassination of a Primordial's Soul outside the gates of Yu-Shan, and then blowing up the Gateway after the Primordials returned to Creation to prevent an escape), Mortals were weakass enough that they did NOT get geased like other things in Creation because they were prayer machines and so seen as 'harmless' until they got Essence Weaponry shoved into their souls... the war was uncertain until the Exalts SUCCESSFULLY killed Primordials and everyone went what the hell! Fucccck!.... also Theion went full out emo at being unable to protect his followers.

Also, there was the whole respawning mechanism... kill one, another mortal gets the shard and goes back in the fight. Over and over until the target dies.

More than that, back then? The exalts were UNITED; 300 Solars, 300 Lunars, 100 Sidereals, Millions of Dragonblooded, and RETCONNED out of existance unknown number of exalts.

Armed with the best weapons that the Mountain Folk and Autochton could make, trained and equipped by spirits in secrecy.

And it still could have gone the other way... given that in the Primordial War, time weaponry got used and both sides ended up with an unspoken agreement to NOT use that shit.

And even after they won that terrible war that saw a kind of intact ravaged Creation in its aftermath... 3/4rds of it got Retconned away with balefire with entire concepts and things simply gone or never existed... and then you get the whole First Age where they claiming landmass from the Wyld and along the way break reality hard... do MAD! science and stuff...

And then Ursupation, Contagion where 90% of EVERYTHING died (not just humans, EVERYTHING), and then the Fairfolk and the Wyld swept in and washed away a fair portion of Creation before the Imperial Defense Grid kicked in thanks to Her Redness.

This is to give you a perspective.

Creation, as is, has suffered multiple apocalyse.

Exalts are not invincible, they can and did die HARD despite possessing perfect defenses.

Against mortals or not so mortals, their primary effect is that they have nice big dice pools, have charms to make their dice pools bigger, and have exotic effects in their charmset which is basically magic.

And if they fight against something long enough, they'll develop charms designed to fuck over their enemies.

Also, you can kill an exalt... but you know what happens? They will respawn in another human who would likely have a grudge against you thanks to having dreams/memories of how they died... and they can keep coming at you.

The exalt can die over and over, and the target needs to win EVERY time... you can guess what happens eventually when the target slips up.

 

[Biigoh]

I should also note the converse of this... against mortals, against modern weapons (which we have stats for in Shards of Exalted Dreams or can be reverse converted from World of Darkness), as of 2nd ed, exalts will win 9.9 out of 10 times unless the mortal gets lucky and goes up against an exalt who has ZERO combat skills/charms.

In much the same the way that Kirito could NOT lose against Titan's Hand. The stats and dice pools are stacked too much in favor of the exalts, and this is before charms or artifacts are factored in.

Exalts have bigger attack and defense dice pools, they have a minimum damage dice pool that they're pretty much guaranteed to roll that is higher than what mortals can do, and which increases as the exalt gets more experience. And then you get the really unfair things like artifact armor or charms where they outright ignore ALL damage below a certain threshold. And this is still before combat charms.

 

[Roquemore]

Exalts are NOT invincible.

Solar Exalts are NOT invincible.

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Oh, yeah. I hold no illusions that a mote-drained combat Exalt versus a tank would always or even necessarily most of the time result in a win for the Exalt. My point is more that it's in no way always guaranteed that the tank crew will win, either, because it's pretty much the same as doing "a normal tank crew versus MCU Captain America, except Cap can run 65 mph, jump 30 feet from a standing start, and does better at things when he acts audaciously".

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-arma...be-reduced-due-high-degree-automation-1972882

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That article is talking about an unmanned turret, not a self-aiming one. It's still aimed and fired by the crew.

 

[vyor]

because it's pretty much the same as doing "a normal tank crew versus MCU Captain America, except Cap can run 65 mph, jump 30 feet from a standing start, and does better at things when he acts audaciously".

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So... basically the same thing as a tank crew vs captain america.

That article is talking about an unmanned turret, not a self-aiming one. It's still aimed and fired by the crew.

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Misread that.

 

[Biigoh]

Oh, yeah. I hold no illusions that a mote-drained combat Exalt versus a tank would always or even necessarily most of the time result in a win for the Exalt. My point is more that it's in no way always guaranteed that the tank crew will win, either, because it's pretty much the same as doing "a normal tank crew versus MCU Captain America, except Cap can run 65 mph, jump 30 feet from a standing start, and does better at things when he acts audaciously".

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So... basically the same thing as a tank crew vs captain america.

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Going to be honest.... you put a semi-competent Solar against a mortal driven tank? They will MURDER the tank and its occupants... even before charms kick in.

Let us assume a starting solar as per core book.

Let us say that solar is NOT fully optimized, with a focus on social combat... but can still fight, want to know the general attack dice pool for that solar?

For melee attacks, because fuck lol... you're generally going to see a dice pool ranging from 6 at the absolute minimum, to an average of 8-10. Possibly even 13 (specialty dice to give bonuses in specific circumstances like wielding Big Ass Swords) before the use of charms. Defense Values come down to 1/2 the full dice pool minus penalties and bonuses from equipment and charms.

On the converse, mortals... want to know what the average dice pool of a mortal without equipment bonus? 1 for areas where they SUCK, 3 for things that they're trained in, 4-6 IF they're heroic and are EXTREMELY well trained. The people with 6 dice? They're the elite mortals that are heroic as fuck and have a high chance of exalting in the right circumstances. They're super rare and tend to be the cream of the crop, the guys you hear stories about.

Mortals with dice pools smaller than the Defense Value of the exalt can attack ALL day and not hit the exalt. The flip side? Exalts if they hit a mortal, if they do more than 3 times the health levels (3) in dice of damage can instantly kill the mortal.

So a team in a tank would against a exalt have a very good chance of missing EVERY single shot at the exalt as the exalt keeps getting closer before charms are factored in, as the exalt gets to stunt and add 1 to 3 dice, gets to recover motes 2-6 every 'action'.