Feudal Quest

[Thomasfoolery]

So you guys want to pardon one bunch of self-admitted criminals, spend our and our guests time accommodating them, then let another bunch of them run off unmolested, sounds brilliant. I'm sure it'll do wonders for the legitimacy of the rule of law in our lands and the stability of our rule. Especially now that the secret of Dita being with us is well and truly blown, no way any of those decisions will come back to haunt us.

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How on earth do you define "not alien" that it doesn't include a feudal lord from both a different time period, culture, and universe?

 

[Seventeen]

Yeah, because tax evasion is a totally a death-worthy crime. That doesn't even make sense in the logic of a feudal social system.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Yeah, because tax evasion is a totally a death-worthy crime. That doesn't even make sense in the logic of a feudal social system.

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Well it apparently is in this world, thinking the facts don't make sense doesn't mean you can just discard them, if you really don't want to kill them then at least vote for the "Look the other way as they run" option, as it's not great but at least gives us some cover and deniability, rather rather than setting the precedent that a decent sob story will get you forgiveness for your crimes.

Though ignoring the bandits still leaves the impression that as long as you run we won't put much effort into catching you, which is also a very problematic image to present.

 

[Arkeus]

Well.... While both Tax Evasion and runnning away from your fief in order to do so are certainly both execution-worthy crimes, there is a couple of problems here:

a°) Traditionally, Peasants having trouble with Tax could defer payment for them (See what happened to our own Taxes) or even pay in some other ways. If they truly thought no such option was available, something is rotten with the way Pischia is run.

b°)These are women and children. I am unsure how ShaperV is playing it, but both should usually be bound to obey the patriarch of the family, and a woman or a child denouncing their patriarch about a crime is unthinkable. Given the setting, i would expect there to be like our medieval europe where it's not just "they can say they didn't know", but "A woman is required to obey her husband (as is a child his father)". Now, this doesn't mean they are required for such in a crime as heinous as Tax Evasion, but there is no knowing if they knew about it before they went here travelling- and once gone from their lands they couldn't leave anymore without being noticed by everyone.

ShaperV: Of course, both of those are based on my understanding of actual medieval habits and not this world's, so i'd like a clarification on how wrong they are.

Given that they have, in my mind, a plausible way for getting off on this, this comes down to not traumatizing Chesna further. She needs a end to this adventure that she can think is good, and being the one to make it a horrible nightmare is not how we want her to remember us.

So, i am tentatively voting for:
[X]Offer to pay Chesna for what would the transfer of peasants to our land would be. They are not responsible for their husband's actions but Chesna cannot really hide them from Nikolai (who could use this in some way to pressure her), and if we take them in we should take this as a legal matter of transferring some peasants to our place from hers.
-[X]We needed more staff for our castle. See if any have any skills that would be good for this.

From then on, go back to walking the border. Thieves aren't worth catching at this point. Not only we were told by an experienced ranger so and we should believe men we have hired for their expertise, but we are with allied nobles right then and shouldn't lose too much of their times, or worse endanger them.

[X] Spend a day helping the villagers and deciding what to do with them, then go back to riding the borders.

 

[megrisvernin]

So you guys want to pardon one bunch of self-admitted criminals, spend our and our guests time accommodating them, then let another bunch of them run off unmolested, sounds brilliant. I'm sure it'll do wonders for the legitimacy of the rule of law in our lands and the stability of our rule. Especially now that the secret of Dita being with us is well and truly blown, no way any of those decisions will come back to haunt us.

How on earth do you define "not alien" that it doesn't include a feudal lord from both a different time period, culture, and universe?

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I mostly mean settings like Warhammer 40K where civilization is on the brink of collapse & one unknown psyker can doom a world. We're dealing with humans with all their associated pains & needs in a setting where they aren't under siege from monsters or demons. I don't think its moral to kill people for evading taxes especially when they weren't given options on repayment.

Tax Evasion is a nonviolent crime. Literally these people left their hamlet & moved somewhere else. They weren't enjoyment the protection of their feudal lord(hence the bandit attacks) nor did they receive any services in return. They were squatting & they should be removed.

I recognize that in the Middle Ages world they would be found & executed for tax evasion & for fleeing the land. It's still morally wrong, regardless if our character or his society consider it so.

I like this choice.

[X]Offer to pay Chesna for what would the transfer of peasants to our land would be. They are not responsible for their husband's actions but Chesna cannot really hide them from Nikolai (who could use this in some way to pressure her), and if we take them in we should take this as a legal matter of transferring some peasants to our place from hers.
-[X]We needed more staff for our castle. See if any have any skills that would be good for this.

[X] Spend a day helping the villagers and deciding what to do with them, then go back to riding the borders.

 

[Walkir]

If their lord isn't going to take "bad harvest" as an excuse, it does not sound like he is upholding his part of the social contract. They are paying taxes to be protected, not stomped on and starved.

Actually doesn't sound like tax evasion at all, more like the validity of these tax demands was questionable in the first place.

 

[Robotninja]

*Sighs*
I hate it when people bring OOC morality into games where character will be brought up with vastly different morals.

 

[Seventeen]

*Sighs*
I hate it when people bring OOC morality into games where character will be brought up with vastly different morals.

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I hate it when people don't know their history and try to claim that summary execution over taxes was ever a thing.

 

[Robotninja]

I hate it when people don't know their history and try to claim that summary execution over taxes was ever a thing.

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Dude. They did kill people for tax evasion in Feudal eras.

 

[Arkeus]

*Sighs*
I hate it when people bring OOC morality into games where character will be brought up with vastly different morals.

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The more i think about it, the more it feels that something is wrong in Pischia. Deferring taxes when your peasants/serfs (are they serfs?) have trouble paying seems like a common practice in Feudal, and in the real world lords were actually lawfully obliged to do so, as well as help their serfs in times of famine (provide money/etc).

While the latter part might not be true of Feudal, the former still seems true, or at least it's "expected". However, Nikolai does not only seems to be hiding villages from us our stealing our taxes (which is worse than simply not paying them at the right time), but he seems to actually be trying to run Pischia into the ground. The question is whether it's for short-timed gain or a more strategic reason remains to be seen.

Then there comes the thing- it seems Dominic doesn't know his law. Unless this is a world where the lords can simply presents justice at a moment's notice, he should actually need to call for the equivalent of judges for almost everything- in fact, Death Penalty was already forbidden for almost everything without a Royal Judge in the middle ages. Of course, this comes down to "i don't know how the law in Feudal works". But it seems like Dominic doesn't either.

Either way, both the law and Nikolai are things i feel we may need to talk about to Chesna/Ezti, though of course if we don't know the laws we must make sure they don't notice.

 

[Seventeen]

Dude. They did kill people for tax evasion in Feudal eras.

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Give me a citation that shows that, and I'll believe you. All of my research so far indicates that that's simply not true.

 

[Walkir]

Hell, can they even afford to kill tax evaders? At, IIRC, 4 farmers needed to feed a single noble/soldier/city dweller (well, probably more for a noble), killing your farmers is the most stupid thing you can do.
Obviously, if they don't pay their taxes, they're not much more useful for the lord alive than dead, but killing them means they can't get better and you definitely lost part of the most important element in your economy. Keeping the farmers in line via other methods is preferable by far.
That aside, a noble basically has two or three jobs - make sure the fief is worth being inherited (including protecting it, although that could be considered a third job) and producing heirs.
Nicholas seems to be failing at the first one.

IRL, killing people for tax evasion... Well, that only works if the clerics say that means you end up in hell afterwards. Otherwise, no one is afraid of it in the first place. Especially if its about being able to feed the family.

 

[Robotninja]

Kill the farmers who refuse to pay to make an example of them. A very simple principle. They did stuff like cut hands off for petty theft. They are totally willing to kill you for not paying.

 

[Arkeus]

Kill the farmers who refuse to pay to make an example of them. A very simple principle. They did stuff like cut hands off for petty theft. They are totally willing to kill you for not paying.

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No, not at all.

First, very very few places cut hand for petty theft. That's just a "some rare non-european places had that and people like to think about it". What happened for petty theft usually was either branding or some kind of slavery (sent on ships, sent on mines, sent on whatever).

Basically, it's not a european punishment, but a stereotypical punishment in Islamic countries, particularly Saudi Arabia.

Second, even serfs actually had a whole "the lord is obligated to help them if they can't pay their tax" thing going. If the Tax Evasion is actually them lying and trying to skirt the Tax because they have a lot of money but don't want to pay it's one thing that could get them to court (yes, court- and it would probably be middle court with fine or jail, as the High courts or their equivalents, the only ones that had death penalty, tended to need Royal Judges in most places. E.G, lord weren't allowed to kill their serfs, let alone their peasants), but in the cases where the peasants couldn't actually pay the taxes and had no way to feed thesmelves the lord had to feed them by law.

Of course, Feudal is different- the fact that there are Gods and Magic change everything, and i have no clue how laws are working there, but we have already seen that giving your peasants the option to defer taxes isn't weird, and given that the hints that Nikolai is not only evading tax but stealing it are not enough to summarily kill him, the existence of some kind of court seems true.

 

[Malcolmo]

[X] Put up a gallows, and hang the villagers. The law is the law, and you can find someone who'll do the dirty work. If it does turn out no one else has the stomach for it then kill them yourself.
[X] Pursue the bandits… unless they head for Rogatica. No sense risking Ezti or starting a war.

 

[ShaperV]

a°) Traditionally, Peasants having trouble with Tax could defer payment for them (See what happened to our own Taxes) or even pay in some other ways. If they truly thought no such option was available, something is rotten with the way Pischia is run.

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A lord has the option of extending such mercy, but isn't required to. Takes are usually in the form 'deliver X bushels of Y on this date', so when peasants 'can't' pay this is almost always a matter of 'we'll starve this winter if we pay', not 'we literally don't have that many bushels of Y'. A lot of lords demand that they hand over the tax anyway, on the theory that they're just whining and they'll find some way to survive.

b°)These are women and children. I am unsure how ShaperV is playing it, but both should usually be bound to obey the patriarch of the family, and a woman or a child denouncing their patriarch about a crime is unthinkable. Given the setting, i would expect there to be like our medieval europe where it's not just "they can say they didn't know", but "A woman is required to obey her husband (as is a child his father)". Now, this doesn't mean they are required for such in a crime as heinous as Tax Evasion, but there is no knowing if they knew about it before they went here travelling- and once gone from their lands they couldn't leave anymore without being noticed by everyone.

ShaperV: Of course, both of those are based on my understanding of actual medieval habits and not this world's, so i'd like a clarification on how wrong they are.

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No, this is pretty much correct. But in Borjeria that's a cultural thing rather than a written law - the Borjerian legal system isn't all that well codified at this point anyway, since the nation has never had a king strong enough to force all the nobles to agree on a standard legal code. So in a case of mass conspiracy like this there's a conflict between the impulse to hang all the conspirators, and the desire to spare the women. If the men were still alive you could easily hang them and leave the women alone, and no one would think anything of it. But nobles tend to think someone needs to be hung when a major crime is discovered, or the commoners will start thinking they can get away with things.

That's why even the medieval NPCs are uncomfortable about applying the law in this case - technically a mass action like this calls for collective punishment of everyone involved, but no one really wants to hold the women responsible.

In response to other comments:

• Please remember that 'feudal' covers an entire continent for about a thousand years, and the cases you can read about most easily are from the relatively enlightened kingdoms of Western Europe in the late middle ages. Yes, there were enlightened regimes where peasants had rights. There were also brutal regimes where peasants were slaves and their lord could hold mass executions on a whim. Borjerian society is based more on early versions of feudalism, before the legal systems started getting elaborate and people started talking about non-nobles having rights - so it isn't as brutal as the kingdoms of Eastern Europe, but the laws tend to be a stark 'do X or die' kind of thing.
• In Borjeria all nobles higher than a landed knight hold the right of high justice over their subjects. That means you're personally judge, jury and executioner for any commoners found on your land whenever you want to be. While you have the ability to call a formal trial and conduct investigations, you're not obligated to bother unless another noble objects to less formal proceedings.

 

[Arkeus]

the Borjerian legal system isn't all that well codified at this point anyway, since the nation has never had a king strong enough to force all the nobles to agree on a standard legal code.

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Ah, that baiting. That delicious, delicious baiting.

Well, folks. We know what Dominic needs to do, don't we?

 

[Seventeen]

Thanks for the clarification, ShaperV.

Ah, that baiting. That delicious, delicious baiting.

Well, folks. We know what Dominic needs to do, don't we?

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Kill everyone in the kingdom and replace them with flesh sorcery made clones of himself?

 

[Arkeus]

Kill everyone in the kingdom and replace them with flesh sorcery made clones of himself?

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I was thinking "Establish our dominion with such influence that we can create a legal code", but that works too.

 

[Falconis]

Well, here's the part I forgot to say.

I wasn't planning on people going unpunished from this. The women and children are essentially being forced to work in whatever way we please until their debt is paid off, both to the land they came from and us. Sure we can choose to be easy on them, but we can make this as hard as we want (though utter brutality is a bad idea for a few reasons).

The men have fled and we are unlikely to catch them with our full force, but if we send some rangers to track them we can see where they've gone, and if they fled to some other land we can warn the lord there about it and they can deal with them (or we can get permission to deal with them and avoid the possible problems of distributing justice on another mans land without his knowledge). Depending on how we arrange it, we could get some points for the heads up and if the men are found and summarily executed we can turn it into a join venture to show solidarity and the importance of law in our fiefs.
There are a number of ways this could play out, and a fair number of them can be in our favor, and the ones that have downsides are ultimately salvageable.

I'm trying to keep the big picture in mind and play a few months ahead, but I can understand if that is risky to some people.

 

[Arkeus]

I'm trying to keep the big picture in mind and play a few months ahead, but I can understand if that is risky to some people.

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Thing is, everything is risky- Punishing them will certainly sicken Chesna and might make her dislike us, could potentially make our men hate us, and might make Ezti see us as too inflexible. We just don't know how the risks are going to fall, so it makes sense to take the risk that fit what worldview Dominic wants to have, as well as not make a bad impression on Chesna.

The lack of actual law kind of cause a problem right now as that mean that "being seen enacting punishment" is more important than actually solving the crimes, so must also be seen to do -something-.

I...dislike talking about divine retribution for breaking the law, so i would NOT suggest we make a speech about how Khersis made sure to punish them already, even if it could be an easy solution.

I'd actually just make a small speech about how this is exactly why we need to pay tax- so that your lord can protect you. Their husbands evaded their taxes and hid themselves, and it resulted in them not having the lord's protection when bandits attacked. The husband then got punished for their foolishness by the simple fact of being hidden, and we have killed some of those who survived yesterday. Clearly, They should survive just so that their can be witnesses as to the folly of not yearning for a lord's protection.

That's more or less what i would have Dominic say, though obviously in better words I am also a bit worried that the Bandits conveniently found this village of tax evaders. My paranoia continues to grow.

 

[Walkir]

I was coming more from the question of what makes sense to do - mass executions on a whim do not lead to real loyalty, let alone long term prosperity, and there is only so much you can do before your own feudal lord notices you can't afford the troops and taxes you owe him (or are a constant reason for your neighbors to complain at him... or his superiors).
Just because there's no codified law doesn't mean there are no consequences of a nobles' actions.

And possibly from Germanic chiefs as early nobles.

Edit: That said, I really want to investigate that one knight with the afraid girls later on, I got the feeling our vassals there are used to being the authority by now, not answering to authority.
Might end up in the guy needing some forceful reminder who's in charge, but c'est la vie.

 

[fitzgerald]

We have several good reasons for not wanting to hang the women.

First is that Corzu keep needs the labor. Practically speaking we need labor to look after the pigs, chickens etc. Not to mention acquiring sheep to provide wool other sources of cloth.

Plus as we increase the number of troops, well they wont lack for husbands for long.

Ensuring Pischas doesnt lose.out on its taxes seems the best way forward. Perhaps directly to Chesnas purse to prepare herself for future trips

 

[fitzgerald]

[X]Offer to pay Chesna for what would the transfer of peasants to our land would be. They are not responsible for their husband's actions but Chesna cannot really hide them from Nikolai (who could use this in some way to pressure her), and if we take them in we should take this as a legal matter of transferring some peasants to our place from hers.
-[X]We needed more staff for our castle. See if any have any skills that would be good for this.

[X] Spend a day helping the villagers and deciding what to do with them, then go back to riding the borders.

 

[ShaperV]

April Events Pt 8

[X]Offer to pay Chesna for what would the transfer of peasants to our land would be. They are not responsible for their husband's actions but Chesna cannot really hide them from Nikolai (who could use this in some way to pressure her), and if we take them in we should take this as a legal matter of transferring some peasants to our place from hers.
-[X]We needed more staff for our castle. See if any have any skills that would be good for this.

[X] Spend a day helping the villagers and deciding what to do with them, then go back to riding the borders.



"Well," you say thoughtfully. "Ordinarily I'd be eaer to get to the bottom of such an accusation, and deal harshly with the perpetrators. But it seems to me that the guilty parties have already met their fate, and all we have here are the victims."

"I... don't know that Nikolai will agree," Chesna says hesitantly.

"Well, that's easily settled," you point out. "I'm sure your men must have long since confiscated their homes, fields and harvest back in Pischia, and it's hard to believe that wouldn't cover a year's taxes. Your people aren't serfs, are they?"

"Of course not!"

"So they're free to leave their lands. The men may not have given proper notice, but it's a bit late to punish them for that now. So it's just a matter of making good on the taxes they should have been paying to Corzu these last few years. They obviously can't work these fields themselves, so they'll work for me until they've repaid their debt."

Ezti's eyes narrow, and for a moment you wonder what she's thinking. Then it occurs to you that there's only one job a young peasant woman can do that customarily pays any measurable amount of money. Oops. Um, how to make this clear?

"Ahem. Dita, perhaps you could take charge of them until they're safely at the keep, and speak to the staff about finding work for them? They've been her for, what, six years? So we'll call it twelve years of service to repay their debt."

Well, everyone seems pretty happy with that deal.

The rest of the border walk is mercifully uneventful, and you return to Corzu a week later with that task nearly complete. Only one border left to go, and it's a short one.

At this point you're quite sure Ezti wants you to propose a marriage alliance (it would be terribly improper for her to propose it herself, of course). She's talked a good bit about what fierce fighters the people of Kiscun are and how loyal they are to her family. According to her the main reason for their poor equipment is the high tarrifs your family charges on river traffic, since they have to buy all their iron at prices that are double what would be normal in the more central parts of the kingdom. She also points out that Rogatica would have to think twice about acting against you, since he'd be facing the combined resources of Kiscun, Corzu and Pischia plus the potential for your father or grandfather to intervene.

Chesna is currently alternating between talking up how great a match with Ezti would be for the family, and flirting with you herself. She's definitely attracted to you, but so far loyalty to her friend and the fact that she's your cousin are enough to deter her from chasing you. Barely. Most of the time.

Adventure Results:

Gained Ally (Chesna)
Gained Ally (Lala)
Gained Suitor (Ezti)
Walked borders with Pischia, Kiscun and the Black Wood - only the Rogatica border remains.

+2/4 Diplomacy
+1/9 Leadership
+1/1 Seduction (new skill gained!)
+1/16 Swordsmanship
+1/9 Tactics
+1/9 Woodscraft
+Flesh Sorcery Technique: sustainable strength/speed boost

 

[Silversun17]

I'm thinking we go with Ezti. strike while the iron is hot and she hasn't been kidnapped.

 

[Falconis]

I'm ok with Etzi but we should definitely walk the boarder with Rogatica BEFORE we do so, we don't need the man making trouble because of women.

For now, lets set the peasants we just got on clearing the fields around the keep. It's hard work but tough, they're criminals.
Another reason for this is that we don't necessarily want them roaming around the keep as they please. We spent a long time screening our current workers, no need jeopardize that.

Split them into Keep staff and Grounds Staff

 

[Arkeus]

Should we make prompts or are we just supposed to make comments/whatever until the full month report?

Regardless, given there is no indication that Chesna/Ezti are gone, i would like to try to go back to scheming with them, this time on more specfic details:

To Chesna:

"What are your thoughts on Nikolai? I'd be honest and say my initial impressions are not good, but maybe it's just first impressions. How he is generally acting around your mother, yourself or your barony?"

"Your debut should be soon. Do you have any reason for me not to try and help your mother arrange it? If not, how soon do you wish to have it?"

To Both:
"Baron Timis recently lost his son. Do you think he remains approachable, or is he likely to shut down any negociation for the items that belonged to the one likely to have murdered his son?"

To Ezti:
"I have a few haunts i have to clear up before finally taking control of the regency of the Fief. Do you want to help? Have you had any experience with them?"

 

[ShaperV]

Should we make prompts or are we just supposed to make comments/whatever until the full month report?

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I'm going to get the month end report out tomorrow so you can all start discussing what to do next, and then I'll come back and respond to any further conversation you want to have with the girls.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

Huh, so Adventures can have incredibly, incredibly lucrative payouts in skill gain, the full scope of this was previously not understood by me.

Anyway I also had a question I wanted to ask while they were here but forgot, I don't think we should ask for Ezti's help but I do think we should ask if they have any information about the haunts, especially the one involving the monster, I'm pretty worried about that one.