Forging Ahead (GURPS Interstellar Wars/Celestial Forge)

[Faralis]

If the Vilani had thrown the entirety of their Grand Fleet at Terra, Terra of course would have no chance. It's just, the Vilani Imperium hasn't mustered their entire fleet, or even a majority of it, against a single target in forever and a half.

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Hell, IIRC in canon they didn't do it till they had been loosing wars to the Confederation for a century and a half, at least.

 

[ryune]

Yeah, I think that is one of the things that we have been having a bit of a problem groking as readers. The Vilani are united under a common ruling class but that rulership is not only diverse, it's also nominally at odds with itself. Earth has a hell of a chance of surviving simply because of the utter clusterfuck that needs to happen for the greater fleet to even notice anything. And before that? They get the equivalent of a single state ranger with a shotgun sent in to cause police brutality.

 

[Cheetored20]

Speaking of magic; BattleTech's heatsinks are also just outright magic.

Fully solid-state internal radiators which somehow shed megawatts of power (maybe even gigawatts at peak) with a duty cycle measured in centuries. These things would radically change how compact a fission reactor or lasering system is all the way down to computer systems

Double-heatsinks aka "Freezers" (like some other BTech metamaterials) apparently require 0-gee manufacturing because otherwise the magic doesn't crystalize just right.

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Wait are you saying they took the reactors they had and put them in reverse?

 

[RandomLurker]

Wait are you saying they took the reactors they had and put them in reverse?

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Sure, why not. That makes more sense than most of the explanations for the things anyway.

They can disperse amazing amounts of heat quickly and efficiently despite things like being under tons of armor on a giant robot in space, to no actual limit allowing high energy systems to be used in strange places for years on end. They basically are anti entropy devices, "It just dumps heat into sub space that will be 5,000 c bills. Thanks." may as well be right.

 

[Domino]

Yeah, come to think about it, Battletech heat sinks WOULD be useful in all sorts of space-based industries, not to mention terrestrial industries, wouldn't they?

Imagine high end gaming PCs using them.

 

[TroyX]

Yeah, come to think about it, Battletech heat sinks WOULD be useful in all sorts of space-based industries, not to mention terrestrial industries, wouldn't they?

Imagine high end gaming PCs using them.

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That's the real reason they use mechs, so they can coopt all the video game nerds into being willing recruits

 

[Domino]

Also, cliff! Kudos on picking up the Black Supercomputer - it's a real handy peace of kit for any Jumper/Forgemaster to have.

Now, how much of it is she going to extract for introduction to her peers? Even if she can't perfectly export unlimited storage and unlimited possessing power and immunity to malware and crystal clear wi-fi reception onto more mundane systems, can she study how they work on her specific device and extract some of the principles behind them to produce advancements in those fields? How much can she reverse engineer the "most intuitive, perfect UI imaginable" and omni-applicable OS for normal devices?

 

[Slyvena]

How much can she reverse engineer the "most intuitive, perfect UI imaginable" and omni-applicable OS for normal devices?

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My guess is she cannot reverse engineer the fiat-effects at all. They are not technology, they are jumpchain meta-magic. But the actual computer architecture she can doubtlessly gain insights from, its just up to Cliff where the line between 'It just works, shut up' and 'Oh, hi Actual Physics' is drawn.

 

[Domino]

When it comes to reverse engineering Items, especially tech based Items, I've never seen why it should be impossible for a Jumper or Forgemaster with sufficient reverse engineering skill to copy them. It's a computer that has programming on it, presumably the version produced by Lucy in the film was programmed and operated 'normally', for all that 'normal' matters to a post-human intelligence on the very cusp of ascension into a singularity intelligence that reached across time and space. The ceph nanites wouldn't normally have been viable in the Traveller universe, yet she was fully capable of putting some of the principles behind their function into operation after studying them in spite of that.

 

[Blade4]

This does work better. Batteries for starter cash and rep. Ftl comms that then segue into kf hybrid drive and from there she has a open field and unlimited funding for anything. Between the wide uses of the batteries and ftl comms the next war should be far easier. If they can make the initial offensive a slaughter or a near one it could end the war right there. If they have hidden probes up the chain and catch the invasion fleet incoming... What if she develops ftl sensors even if just ones that show when and where ships come out of hyper?

Though concern the state would steal the patent seems overblown. You don't fuck with your golden goose and trying would have been very stupid. On top of pissing off people thinking the government will dick them for advantage... Look up Disney's porn vault for how that works out for them.

It is very good to get a look behind the veil though. The girl is right about the danger but to a large degree the empire brings it on themselves provoking earth even they don't mean to.

 

[kartal]

Not gonna lie. I was hoping for another one shot of the genius patrol calling together an emergency meeting when she suprise suplexed them out of nowhere again. The last one we saw added a lot of character to this story, and I think it would be hilarious to see an ongoing background of Terrans trying to cope with Sophia's particular brand of genius.

 

[Kahalah]

Question about the weapons for Imperium armor and weapons for space combat. Are they using Meson weapons and Crystaliron armor or are they still under development at this time? could any Battletech weapons take on that armor or have their armor handle the energy from the Mesons? the travellers wiki doesn't give alot out for the weapons or armor beside a short description which doesn't help that much. Is the combat pure mid to close range or are there still long range missiles happening?

 

[cliffc999]

Question about the weapons for Imperium armor and weapons for space combat. Are they using Meson weapons and Crystaliron armor or are they still under development at this time?

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The Imperium and the Confederation are both at Traveller TL10, and those are, IIRC, TL12 weapons and armor.

 

[Kahalah]

Alright thank you. Well that makes things alittle more interesting and gives MC some weapons ideas to improve the damage and repairs costs of weapons at least. Armor would be alittle harder to do because of refits.

 

[ursinethemadbear]

The most detailed FTL comms as a plot device in Sci-fi (at least, the ones I know about) was when the FTL comms was run by a secretly murderous phone company with the ultimate dream of space genocide (Battletech), and the part where you need a telepath to literally send their souls through Space Hell just to deliver your message (Good ol' 40K). Seriously, those were pretty wild. Why don't people talk about their space phones more often?

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How about Anne MacAffrey's Talent universe, where all FTL communications AND travel depend on powerful psychics working in concert and boosting their powers from specially built generators?

And if i fall asleep for 100 years, and they wake me up, and ask what tech we want most, i answer; better battaries and nuclear fusion.

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I answer better Hot Pockets and louder Rock bands.

Imagine high end gaming PCs using them.

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But my level 27 Fighter/Rogue doesn't have an issue with heat dispersal.

 

[Kris-71854]

I'm curious why she thinks that the previous guy was the best that Vilani has produced in generations. How many conflicts have they been in? How do they judge? It seems more like they go through time in grade or sims. That's fine and all, but seems like the guy might just really have tested well.

The Vilani has about a thousand planets. How wide is that in transit time across the entire thing at jump 2? I'm more curious on what "tiny" border fleet that guy was assigned. Did he even have 10 planets under his command? Sure, at their tech level and development, they should have been able to steamroller right over Earth without any issues.

If the Vilani actually thought Earth was remotely a danger, they wouldn't have stopped. They'd have called in 3 of those local fleets. Heck, they likely could have just sent their ships around to claim/colonize everything and blockade Earth to its home system.

The real issue is that the Vilani doesn't actually remotely care about the Confederation. They aren't really considered a real power.

That behind-the-scenes look is odd. Not so much because she's that high rank. More that she was actually able to be stationed on Earth, observe the civ/people, and make her own conclusions. Then go back home and actually think that they could be a threat?

That seems like some joke.

I'm more stunned that the Vilani hasn't given up on progress due to hitting the actual physical limits of the universe.

I can't wait for Sophia to get enough reputation to test out her version of FTL. I'm more curious about what they'd choose to use it on. I'd expect fewer warships and more scouts/colony ships. They'd be traveling away from the Vilani. The Vilani would have little clue about that as they'd think that they were mainly safely bottled up.

There is one thing that I don't think anyone has commented on yet. Sophia has seemed paranoid about possible Vilani spies on Earth or within the Confederation in general. I'd have seriously discounted that as a possibility. What do we find out though? She was right! There actually are Vilani spies, and they've been on Earth, and are stirring stuff up around the Confederation.

 

[Vrenze]

I'd have seriously discounted that as a possibility.

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Why? It would be step zero for gathering any intelligence what so ever regarding any culture you intend to interact with or not. If nothing else you subvert normal citizens of the outside group either through money or threats of various kinds and have them get info from others. Once you know anything, including and especially what discontent exists you amplify and fund it if even to a tiny degree because that tiny degree is the starting point for later, again regardless of your future interests.

 

[Kris-71854]

Why? It would be step zero for gathering any intelligence what so ever regarding any culture you intend to interact with or not. If nothing else you subvert normal citizens of the outside group either through money or threats of various kinds and have them get info from others. Once you know anything, including and especially what discontent exists you amplify and fund it if even to a tiny degree because that tiny degree is the starting point for later, again regardless of your future interests.

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Mainly because the only Vilani within the Confederation should be the defectors. Unless they are fake. If they are monitoring their own civilians as closely as the MC, then surely they are doing the same to all visiting Vilani. Doesn't matter if its a defector or tourist, you've got plenty of folks or methods to quietly stalk them at a distance. It should barely be possible for them to do spy stuff like that.

The traders I can get. Those in Vilani space might not care that it's yet another subspecies of humanity. The more that you interact with the Vilani, the more that you become the Vilani.

That's what I really don't get. The Vilani should have been winning a cultural PR war against the Confederation by barely trying. Military action shouldn't remotely be needed.

 

[Vrenze]

The traders I can get. Those in Vilani space might not care that it's yet another subspecies of humanity. The more that you interact with the Vilani, the more that you become the Vilani.

That's what I really don't get. The Vilani should have been winning a cultural PR war against the Confederation by barely trying. Military action shouldn't remotely be needed.

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This doesn't make sense, how would a heavily caste based and calcified society appeal to people who know that without massive detriment to everyone else on earth, they would be starting at the very lowest rung of that ladder? Why would Vilani naturally be better than Earth? They rushed earth and violated two of the most commonly held rules of engagement: Don't kill civilians and don't ruin the land. Or are you stuck on "BuT wHaT iF eArTh WaS tHe BaDdIeS, gUiZe?!?!1?"

Mainly because the only Vilani within the Confederation should be the defectors. Unless they are fake. If they are monitoring their own civilians as closely as the MC, then surely they are doing the same to all visiting Vilani. Doesn't matter if its a defector or tourist, you've got plenty of folks or methods to quietly stalk them at a distance. It should barely be possible for them to do spy stuff like that.

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As was repeatedly stated in an earlier discussion no form of observation and filtering is perfect therefore its impossible and shouldn't be tried so I dunno /s.

More seriously that does nothing for people that would simply be inclined to sell information without being approached because they hate the current system for whatever real or imagined reason like "they aren't doing enough for me/x group" while being incapable of defining what 'enough' is reasonably. Some people are rebellious dicks regardless.

 

[litaispe]

Wait are you saying they took the reactors they had and put them in reverse?

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There is no real canon explanation for how those radiators make physics go cry in a corner.

BattleTech mechs weaponry can spike enough thermal load to actually kill a human, who is inside a sealed cockpit in a +50ton metal machine. Heating up that much hardware, that fast, from basically background temperature is a lot of thermal energy.

That's the real reason they use mechs, so they can coopt all the video game nerds into being willing recruits

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The neurohelmet explicitly somehow uses the the pilot was a fundamental part of a mech's control systems.

 

[cliffc999]

While Sharik Yangila didn't take advantage of this (she was inserted into the Confederation before the Third Interstellar War, and she got by on both being an ace espionage agent and not being genetically Vilani - remember that she's descended of another of their subject races), it's important to remember that over one billion Vilani subjects were living on Nusku when the Confederation took it away from the Imperium at the end of the Third Interstellar War... and they're still there. Nobody could possibly evacuate that many people. That war ended in 2156, or 13 years ago by in-story time.

This has obvious effects on how hard it is to track the movements of Vilani visitors through Confederation space. There's over a billion of them who are Confederation citizens now.

In addition to the fact that Vilani are human. In the Traveller universe, some mysterious ancient aliens (creatively labelled "The Ancients") scattered neanderthal man to worlds all across the galaxy tens of thousands of years ago for, well, they're all gone now and they left behind no records and barely any relics, so nobody knows what the fuck the Ancients were thinking. Terrans are descended from the ones left behind on Terra, Vilani are descended from the ones they took to the planet Vland, ditto for all the other human races out there in the galaxy... but they're all human, and they all derive from the same ancestral stock, and the divergence point is only in the Paleolithic era so they're all technically homo sapiens.

When Sophia was musing that it wouldn't be hard to program a genetic bioweapon to target Vilani gene patterns and ignore human ones, she was correct. However, being able to do that with Ceph nanotech bullshit is a distinctly different thing from being able to spot Vilani from Terran with the Mark I eyeball, or even with contemporary DNA tests.

 

[Prince Chrom]

If I've remembered that right...then who wants to bet the Genius Patrol thinks Sophia has some latent psychic power that boosted her intelligence?

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I mean, ignoring the latent part, they wouldn't really be wrong to think that.

 

[blackshadow111]

I'll admit, for a moment I was shocked at seeing the Black Computer, because I thought I'd put the Universe history into it. Got real shocked and excited that this was maybe going to suddenly get into Ancients and stuff.

But no, that's the flash drive.

I answer better Hot Pockets and louder Rock bands.

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Fun fact is that Disaster Area stuff is in the chain. Might even be in the Forge.

 

[Blade4]

Honestly I have have a hard time believing the central government knows nothing of the Terrans the more I think about it. Even if it's just these guys are here and hold one of our planets when this admiral went traitor and got a lot of ships and people killed. The problem being this crazy girl has fucked up hard lying to them and betraying her admiral. She does not trust the system she is trying to save and it's processes. And does not understand she has endangered it worse for all this.

When the next party starts it's probably going to end very badly and they won't be able to ignore the Terrans when their ships are rampaging among the trade routes and seizing more worlds. And the empire will be suckered punch by all this. I hope the lady survives to quite possibly be literally crucified when both empire and confed actually talk and compare notes and sensor data and realize what actually happened here. She has ensured the empire a bad time making a near permanent enemy of a nation they did not need to make.

 

[cliffc999]

Honestly I have have a hard time believing the central government knows nothing of the Terrans the more I think about it.

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It takes approximately two years by the fastest possible courier route, using max jump all the way and handing messages off to a new courier at every relay instead of waiting for a courier ship to refuel and refit, to get a message from Shalgiasu to the Imperial capital at Vland. It would take approximately five years for a single ship to follow the same route, allowing for reasonable shore leave, resupply, and refit en route.

When Sharik Yangila mused that the Vilani Imperium's emphasis on social stability and uniformity allowed to operate well beyond what Terran society would consider the maximum possible span-of-control limit, she was being literal. Terran society couldn't possibly hope to run anything the size of the Vilani Imperium without having the whole thing fall apart in a couple of centuries. Which is precisely why the Second Imperium that was founded when the Confederation finally made the Vilani surrender is noted in history books as "the Ramshackle Empire", and it lasted about as long that name implied.

tldr; The Vilani need a partially decentralized system of government just to function. If it wasn't for their massive (and deliberately cultivated) cultural inertia and all the rest of it, they'd already have started fragmenting like the later Roman Empire centuries ago.

In the canon timeline, the Emperor did not personally involve himself in any affair about the Terrans until the year 2229, during the Eighth Interstellar War. And the only reason it got as high as him is because by that point the Saarpuhi Karshuggi's boss, the Apkallu Kibrat Arban or 'Minister of the Four Quarters', had to send a direct personal appeal to the Throne for the entire Imperial Core Fleet to be committed to the struggle, because by that point he was in genuine danger of losing control of the Imperial Rim Province. (Terra had 'broken out of the pocket' several wars ago and had been advancing the frontier inward a few worlds at a time).

If you're wondering why none of them ever reported it earlier, note that admitting to the Throne that shit has gone that far out of hand that you actually need this level of reinforcements is basically synonymous with handing in your resignation. Hell, the Third Interstellar War is the first one that got large enough that Kadur Erasharshi had to tell his boss all about what was going on, and we know how that would have ended for his career even if his lieutenant hadn't knifed him in the back during the endgame so that his failure would be seen as one of execution and not one of policy. (And thus allow that policy another attempt at success.)

And even at as late a date as the Ninth Interstellar War that huge a mismatch of heavy metal that might actually have broken the Confederation... except that at about the same time, Terran science finally cracked the problem of jump-3, meaning that they could get around 'behind' the advancing Core Fleet and cut off all their lines of supply and retreat. (Remember Sharik Yangila's noting that Terra and Shulgiasu are only 11 parsecs apart in a sraight line, but you have to dog-leg eighteen jumps around at jump-2 because the stars don't line up right to make it a viable jump-2 route? If you have a jump-3 drive you can make it from Terra to Shulgiasu in four jumps, and 2 of those jumps are just getting to Nusku!)

And once the Imperium had to surrender the entire Core Fleet then... well, that was it. It took over half a century beyond that point until the Vilani finally surrendered, but once they lost the bulk of their capital fleet and control of the entire Imperial Rim Province with it, and the Terrans could simply cheat the starmap with jump-3 in ways the Vilani couldn't hope to match, it wasn't a case of "if" but of "when".

 

[Powergoat]

tldr; The Vilani need a partially decentralized system of government just to function. If it wasn't for their massive (and deliberately cultivated) cultural inertia and all the rest of it, they'd already have started fragmenting like the later Roman Empire centuries ago.

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Aaaand of course by introducing FTL comms, the MC will be breaking that paradigm wide open. Even more with better Jump drives allowing much more prompt responses. Im not sure exactly what empires reaction to FTL comms would be, but it would defiantly bring their full weight down for either the acquisition or destruction of that technology.
Very good of her to keep this as secret as possible.

 

[Deathwings]

Would the Vilani even be able to reverse engineer FTL Communication ? HPGs are kinda Blackboxed to hell and back.

 

[GAMB42]

So from what I understand the comparison to Honor Harrington and its inspiration in age of sail warfare and empire building is is well placed.

And now the MC is gonna break that apart by closing the command and control loop thanks to FTL communications and later faster FTL drives.

 

[Jaykko mimmzy]

Would the Vilani even be able to reverse engineer FTL Communication ? HPGs are kinda Blackboxed to hell and back.

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They are more than Black-Boxed. Depending on the narrative, the technology was designed to resemble the "black-boxes" that were discontinued. The difference was that the HPG frequency could be disrupted on purpose but not by using it. Other Narratives, and most likely canon states that the Clarion Note protocol was built to effect HPG frequency, but some theories state HPG tech was designed to be capable of Clarion Note's blanket blackout and not the other way around. Terran Hegemony and Star League went out of the way to encourage reverse engineering in their client states as much as possible to prevent other nations from gaining advantage while making it as impossible to do so.

So black-boxing "to hell and back" is a massive understatement. But HPGs are big obvious things unless you are building a Castle Brian which might actually be a good idea for the Terran Federation that suspects Villani pragmatic orbital bombardment. However obviously HPG is obvious target that apparently causes detectable EM pulses when used and FTL comma is important enough to make the whole empire move and we gotta hope the Confederation's high command realize that. That requires Halo's Cole Protocol levels of security and self destruct on first suspicion of being compromised level of dedication.

Even if the Vilani can't recreate it, knowledge of its existence is equally damning for the Terran civilization.

 

[Delusionist]

FTL comms will necessarily be secret for a time, but once it becomes public and interstellar internet connectivity becomes a thing, the Confederation will really be cooking with gas.