Gendered nouns, nonstandard and otherwise

[tomio]

I'm really not sure what "cramming it down my throat" means in this context. Want to elaborate? I swear I'm just being rude to TanaNari because he's been so insistent about being rude to me.

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They pointlessly elaborate on their sex life, they stress the fact that they're a man and like penis, it just looks like they're gay simply for the attention.

Perhaps a story of why I don't like those people:

One day, I went out with a few friends of mine. Just three of them, since the others were either sick or busy for school. The other three were gay, and I'm totally fine with that.

Halfway through the night, someone slaps my ass hard enough for the entire bar to hear. Now, because I was more than a bit drunk at the time and was wearing jeans which softened the blow, I simply turn around instead of punching this person.

I don't really care about what you wear, but some things are plain ridiculous. I mean, green hotpants and a tan shirt? Aren't gay people supposed to have a better sense of style? So the first thing I say to him is that he should fuck off. He starts being overly familiar. A friend of mine tells him to fuck off.

He asks "Is it because I'm gay?"

At this point, I simply walk to the bar and order a few shots, because no way in hell am I going to let sober!me remember this (seemed like a good idea at the time according to halfdrunk!me).

So I don't remember much, but I woke up with a headache like you wouldn't believe. Apparently the camp dude thought we were discriminating him because he's gay, and in a way, I was. Because I didn't want to have sex with a dude, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to be discriminatory when deciding who I have or don't have sex with. It devolved into a shouting match with the camp dude constantly trying to play the "I'm gay, I'm special" card. We ended up going somewhere else.

The rest of the night can be described best as Bacchanalia, and I'll leave it at that because it isn't relevant.

And while other camp dudes might be less of an asshole than this dude, I know that intellectually, but it's not normal to be like that. Acceptable, maybe, but not normal. Which is why I'm always going to look at them like they're weird, because only about 1-2% of humans act like that.

That said, don't be rude. That goes for everyone here, I'd say.

 

[pepperjack]

I, too, have had trouble from obnoxious drunk people. I try not to let it color my perceptions of other people who share whatever characteristic was most prominent (other than obnoxious drunkeness) in the individuals who gave me trouble.

 

[tomio]

He wasn't drunk. He got close enough for me to smell his breath, and although my sense of smell is shit, I'm still good at determining if someone is drunk or not.

And I know that not every camp dude is like that, I can't help but make the connection every time I see one.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

He wasn't drunk. He got close enough for me to smell his breath, and although my sense of smell is shit, I'm still good at determining if someone is drunk or not.

And I know that not every camp dude is like that, I can't help but make the connection every time I see one.

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Some people are jackasses. It's true of every possible group.
Tell me, would you approve of someone judging you for being a drinker because they had a bad experience once, with someone you've never met?
I do assure you, there are many people who have horror stories about running into a few guys coming out of a bar. As for persistent sexual harassment, heterosexual males who are drunk are quite well known for it.

Do you want to be judged for the actions of others?

 

[TanaNari]

Yup. Ask for an example of the in your face behavior of camp gays. Get one. Attack the person for giving an example.

Sounds about par for the course.

The thing is... for most stereotypes, they're stereotypes, things that you see on shitty television shows as a shorthand for actually giving characters a personality. Camp gays are not only living up to the Hollywood bullshit, they actually make it look tame by comparison. That's when you know things have gone too far.

I've had my share of being hit on by guys. Doesn't bother me. I've even been known to say yes once in a while. But for the love of fuck, have some god damn respect for yourself as a human being.

There are always those, in any crowd, that are just douchebags. That make the rest look worse for simple measure of being associated with a similar group. For the homosexual community, that is the camp gays.

 

[truebeasts]

I, too, have had trouble from obnoxious drunk people. I try not to let it color my perceptions of other people who share whatever characteristic was most prominent (other than obnoxious drunkeness) in the individuals who gave me trouble.

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While this might be technically ideal behavior, I think it's kind of unreasonable to ask people who've just been sexually harassed to sit down and calmly consider exactly what characteristic was really the problem with the person who harassed them. Harassment really sucks, it's almost impossible not to have it color people's experiences.

 

[GiftofLove]

Some people are jackasses. It's true of every possible group.
Tell me, would you approve of someone judging you for being a drinker because they had a bad experience once, with someone you've never met?
I do assure you, there are many people who have horror stories about running into a few guys coming out of a bar. As for persistent sexual harassment, heterosexual males who are drunk are quite well known for it.

Do you want to be judged for the actions of others?

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As far as I can tell, he's not. This is the type of person he can't stand. Not the entirety of all gay people. It feels like you're trying to make a bigger deal out of this than it is.

I mean, isn't this the same as saying you can't stand silly people who act like kids? He doesn't like people who put on a show, letting one trait of themselves define how they act to an obnoxious degree. I feel like if he had said the same thing but left out any reference to gay people no one would have a problem with it. Except this was a convo about the type of gay people he doesn't like?

And it's all drunk people who are uncomfortably persistent, not just straight men. I've been hounded by both men and women who can't take a hint. Or a straight no. Or me leaving.

 

[tomio]

Tell me, would you approve of someone judging you for being a drinker because they had a bad experience once, with someone you've never met?

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Depends on the situation. Are they being an ass about it, in my face? Then I wouldn't. Otherwise? If it doesn't bother me, I probably won't really care about it. I've got more important things to care about than some random person thinking I'm a worse human being for drinking a few beers a few times a month.

I do assure you, there are many people who have horror stories about running into a few guys coming out of a bar. As for persistent sexual harassment, heterosexual males who are drunk are quite well known for it.

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Yeah, I know. I've got a few horror stories to tell myself about heterosexual females and homosexual males. (No homosexual females, but that might just be because I'm a guy)

Do you want to be judged for the actions of others?

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Would I want to? No. But unless every single person in the world decides to start judging people independently of each other, it's still going to happen and as such, I'll go along because I won't be able to change anything.

 

[truebeasts]

(Sorry about the almost-double-post: I didn't want to write a long reply from mobile.)

They pointlessly elaborate on their sex life, they stress the fact that they're a man and like penis, it just looks like they're gay simply for the attention.

Perhaps a story of why I don't like those people:

One day, I went out with a few friends of mine. Just three of them, since the others were either sick or busy for school. The other three were gay, and I'm totally fine with that.

Halfway through the night, someone slaps my ass hard enough for the entire bar to hear. Now, because I was more than a bit drunk at the time and was wearing jeans which softened the blow, I simply turn around instead of punching this person.

I don't really care about what you wear, but some things are plain ridiculous. I mean, green hotpants and a tan shirt? Aren't gay people supposed to have a better sense of style? So the first thing I say to him is that he should fuck off. He starts being overly familiar. A friend of mine tells him to fuck off.

He asks "Is it because I'm gay?"

At this point, I simply walk to the bar and order a few shots, because no way in hell am I going to let sober!me remember this (seemed like a good idea at the time according to halfdrunk!me).

So I don't remember much, but I woke up with a headache like you wouldn't believe. Apparently the camp dude thought we were discriminating him because he's gay, and in a way, I was. Because I didn't want to have sex with a dude, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to be discriminatory when deciding who I have or don't have sex with. It devolved into a shouting match with the camp dude constantly trying to play the "I'm gay, I'm special" card. We ended up going somewhere else.

The rest of the night can be described best as Bacchanalia, and I'll leave it at that because it isn't relevant.

And while other camp dudes might be less of an asshole than this dude, I know that intellectually, but it's not normal to be like that. Acceptable, maybe, but not normal. Which is why I'm always going to look at them like they're weird, because only about 1-2% of humans act like that.

That said, don't be rude. That goes for everyone here, I'd say.

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Yeah, that sounds like a really shitty situation, and the dude was an asshole. Besides the obvious sexual harassment, it's super shitty to berate someone for not being sexually attracted to you.

I do think that the gay bar scene has some issues with sexual harassment, although I don't really want to discuss that in detail here because it's sort of tangential to the thread topic. But, like, setting that aside, as far as what you're describing as attention-seeking (compulsive TMI, etc), I think that's kind of complicated. Obviously I only know the people that I know, but I think that a lot of those people are...well, they're young. Maybe they grew up in a place where they were the only gay person they knew, or one of only two or three, maybe their parents were upset and rejected them when they came out, maybe they're afraid to be out to their family. Maybe they grew up somewhere where being visibly or "stereotypically" gay meant that they were harassed on the street or bullied at school. And I think for people who grew up in a city with a big gay population, or had parents who were really accepting, it can be really hard to imagine how incredibly isolating it is to feel like no one shares your sexual orientation, and people will bully you about it for no reason, and even your family won't support you. And so when they get somewhere where there are, oh my god, other actual gay people, they can't stop talking about it, because finally it's okay to talk about. So I feel pretty sympathetic to people who do this.

(Just to be clear, I do not think that any of the above is a good reason to sexually harass someone. This ought to go without saying, but I suspect it probably doesn't.)

(Also, this is unrelated, but I can't believe I missed TanaNari's post on my first read, and I just want to say that I'm delighted with my promotion to forum hive mind! Little known fact: all posts on this thread are secretly written by me and my army of drones. Occasionally I have to disagree with myself for verisimilitude, of course, but discerning readers can obviously disregard these little hiccups in the party line.)

 

[tomio]

(Also, this is unrelated, but I can't believe I missed TanaNari's post on my first read, and I just want to say that I'm delighted with my promotion to forum hive mind! Little known fact: all posts on this thread are secretly written by me and my army of drones. Occasionally I have to disagree with myself for verisimilitude, of course, but discerning readers can obviously disregard these little hiccups in the party line.)

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Please keep this kind of thing out of your posts, people. It's needlessly hostile, a simple: "Other people in the thread agree with me on these matters." would've been enough.

 

[truebeasts]

Please keep this kind of thing out of your posts, people. It's needlessly hostile, a simple: "Other people in the thread agree with me on these matters." would've been enough.

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No, see, my actual issue here is 1) I asked you to elaborate on something that you said 2) other people in the thread wrote responses to your post 3) TanaNari wrote a post accusing me of asking you to elaborate solely so that I could then attack you for it, despite the fact that I hadn't, at that point, responded to your post or any of the other posts (or even read them).

I agree that the reply was sarcastic and if I was a better person I probably would have omitted it and let Tananari's behavior speak for itself. But I'm not perfect, and I think Tananari's behavior on this thread has been really inappropriate. I'm happy to respond in detail to posts of his that actually have some content, but the bit where he pointlessly insults people is tiresome.

(Also, I realize tone doesn't always translate very well through text, but that part of the post was intended as joking hyperbole, and I assumed that it fell into the category of "obviously this is supposed to be silly.")

 

[pepperjack]

Yup. Ask for an example of the in your face behavior of camp gays. Get one. Attack the person for giving an example.

Sounds about par for the course.

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I hope this wasn't directed at me.

 

[tomio]

No, see, my actual issue here is 1) I asked you to elaborate on something that you said

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I must have missed this, could you quote it? Or did I already respond to it? I'm pretty bad at remembering things that happened on forums.

I agree that the reply was sarcastic and if I was a better person I probably would have omitted it and let Tananari's behavior speak for itself. But I'm not perfect, and I think Tananari's behavior on this thread has been really inappropriate. I'm happy to respond in detail to posts of his that actually have some content, but the bit where he pointlessly insults people is tiresome.

(Also, I realize tone doesn't always translate very well through text, but that part of the post was intended as joking hyperbole, and I assumed that it fell into the category of "obviously this is supposed to be silly.")

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I'm not very good at not taking things literally.

Yup. Ask for an example of the in your face behavior of camp gays. Get one. Attack the person for giving an example.

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They were providing their point of view, and while it might conflict from my own, it does contribute to the discussion and is not hostile.

 

[pepperjack]

I must have missed this, could you quote it? Or did I already respond to it? I'm pretty bad at remembering things that happened on forums.

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He asked the question that prompted the anecdote in the first place. Don't worry, you've responded. In fact, you quoted it yourself in your post at the top of the page.

 

[TanaNari]

3) TanaNari wrote a post accusing me of asking you to elaborate solely so that I could then attack you for it

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No I didn't. But, again, you deliberately misrepresent my point.

I hope this wasn't directed at me.

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Well, you *did* opt to immediately blame it on drunkenness despite the fact that that behavior that is both endemically common and not even usually attributable to alcohol. But you didn't go out of your way to insult the poster. So tough to call, really.

 

[pepperjack]

Well, you *did* opt to immediately blame it on drunkenness But you didn't go out of your way to insult the poster.

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I admit it was an assumption, one I hadn't noticed that I'd made. In part, I was likely projecting from my own experiences. Still, I think it was an understandable assumption given the context.

despite the fact that that behavior that is both endemically common and not even usually attributable to alcohol.

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I'm tempted to take issue with your use of the word "fact" here.

So tough to call, really.

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I should think it would be an easy call, since I wasn't the one who asked for the example and in fact hadn't been involved in the conversation since before the topic arose.

No I didn't. But, again, you deliberately misrepresent my point.

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I interpreted your comment the same way, so perhaps you could clarify what you did mean by it?

 

[TanaNari]

so perhaps you could clarify what you did mean by it?

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I mean that someone's asked to give a example, and then when that example is given they're attacked on a personal level for having an example to give.

 

[pepperjack]

I mean that someone's asked to give a example, and then when that example is given they're attacked on a personal level for having an example to give.

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So the fact that the person asking for elaboration and the people who responded to the example were entirely different people was irrelevant to your point?
Edit: Just trying to clarify; I'm genuinely having trouble figuring out what you were trying to get across. This isn't a rhetorical question.

And since the only person other than myself who responded before your own comment was Valette, I assume that means you interpreted zeir post as an attack.

 

[TanaNari]

Pretty much.

And honestly, yours wasn't much better. You immediately lead off with assuming the guy was drunk, and then assuming tomio was being unfairly judgmental because of one bad experience with one person. Despite neither of those things being accurate or fair.

Val and TB took it further, of course, but then that's to be expected. But even yours was unfairly judgmental.

 

[pepperjack]

But even yours was unfairly judgmental.

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That wasn't my intention. I only made statements about myself, not anyone else; and further, I said that I try. You'll note I never claimed to succeed.

 

[pepperjack]

Yup. Ask for an example of the in your face behavior of camp gays. Get one. Attack the person for giving an example.

Click to shrink...

Also, I can't read this as describing anything other than a string of actions performed by the same individual. If you misread the thread and thought this all came from the same poster, it's fine to admit it. If not, I suppose you just expressed yourself very poorly.

 

[TanaNari]

Nah. I knew the difference. Although admittedly I'd forgotten who made the request first... but that was irrelevant to my post.

I said that I try. You'll note I never claimed to succeed.

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Fair. Happens to the best of us. And the worst.

 

[tomio]

and then assuming tomio was being unfairly judgmental because of one bad experience with one person. Despite neither of those things being accurate or fair.

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I'll agree with it being inaccurate, but disagree on unfair. As far as they know, that's my only encounter with that type of gay person, and I haven't told any others.

You immediately lead off with assuming the guy was drunk,

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Not unreasonable, given the fact that we were in a bar. I should've mentioned it, but I forgot at the time.

And in my mind, they were asking for elaboration, or refuting my points. Val jumped the gun, but given the fact that there aren't THAT many gay people out there, it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to do so.

Besides, Valette's way of arguing relies heavily on swaying the opponent's feelings and less on hard facts, from what little I've seen of their posts. In real life, it's pretty effective when trying to convince the audience and not the person you're arguing against. If they'd "spice it up" with a few choice facts here and there, you've got your average political debater. It's very frustrating to debate against, but nonetheless effective.

 

[TanaNari]

Wow. "Like a politician, but uses less facts."

Ouch. Mars felt that burn.

 

[GiftofLove]

Wow. "Like a politician, but uses less facts."

Ouch. Mars felt that burn.

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I didn't think of it as a burn, but when put that way I admit I laughed.

 

[tomio]

Wow. "Like a politician, but uses less facts."

Ouch. Mars felt that burn.

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This thread has pretty little to do with facts, and a lot with people's feelings about the matter. It takes at least a semi-skilled debater to be able to debate on nothing but feelings. It was in no way intended as a burn, and I hope Valette doesn't see it that way.

That said, politicians are great debaters, but they cherry-pick their facts and unless they're absolute masters, it shows.

 

[TanaNari]

Well, it's a fair assessment either way.

 

[vyor]

Let's see... pointlessly debated topic that annoys me to no end... check.
TanaNari being a dick... again, check...*
Crazies arguing against established words because reasons... check.

Seems like a perfect place to spew my conversational cancer for the first time on this board!


I really don't see the point to making up a new word when there is already a word that perfectly fits the situation, aka. "they". For example:

"They made some good points, but I disagree on their core tenants." Some random guy said about some political candidate for insert position here.

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Now, tell me what gender the politician was.


*

 

[tomio]

Let's see... pointlessly debated topic that annoys me to no end... check.
TanaNari being a dick... again, check...*
Crazies arguing against established words because reasons... check.

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This part of your post is both unnecessary, and demeaning to other debaters. I sincerely hope it was a joke, because it makes any argument you make carry less weight.

That said, calling people "crazies" is not OK. Is it really that hard to say "people arguing for..."? Because if you're going to sling insults at other people, you can go right back to whatever hole you crawled out off.

 

[TanaNari]

Now, tell me what gender the politician was.

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Trick question. Politicians aren't human enough to qualify for gender.

Insane AIs are, sure. But not politicians.