General chat thread

[Amazon Climber]

See, now, this is why I rarely waste my time talking to you, and instead talk to the audience.

You'll never be convinced. You've got your religion, I'm not part of it.

So I talk around you. But you've given me nothing to base further talking off of, so I'll just wait patiently for you to have a point on the topic, rather than trying to insult me and hoping nobody will call you on the lack of substance.

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…Jesus, I don't think I've ever seen someone project this hard. You getting into the cinema business? Seriously, I have my religion? You're the one making a bizarre and wholly unsupported claim about a secret throng of pedophiles trying to groom kids by writing gay porn featuring doggie dicks and mpreg. And posting it to AO3, which, I remind you, is intended as a smut repository. Until you put up more than Facebook-tier bullshit speculation, I don't owe you anything more than I've given you, which is total incredulity.

 

[TanaNari]

... Once again, if you would actually talk about what I'm actually saying, and stop making shit up, that would be great, thanks.

The strawman you invented is absolutely ridiculous, and deserving of mockery, yes. It is not, however, the position I have taken.

 

[Amazon Climber]

... Once again, if you would actually talk about what I'm actually saying, and stop making shit up, that would be great, thanks.

The strawman you invented is absolutely ridiculous, and deserving of mockery, yes. It is not, however, the position I have taken.

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Here is the initial conversation:

One thing you'll notice, if you're particularly bored one day and feel like checking is that ABO's popularity is a lot higher on sites without age checks or a somewhat enforced age limit.

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As if we needed more proof that children ruin everything they touch.

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Probably less 'children' and more 'perverts trying to groom children' in this particular scenario.

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Here's your reply to my initial response:

The 'lupine pack dynamics' part is somewhere between 'irrelevant' and 'smokescreen'. The key factor is 'exposing the underaged to extreme sexual content'. By whatever would be considered 'extreme' in the current cultural zeitgeist.

A well-documented behavior of groomers in all times and places where molesting children is considered a crime to the general public.

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If your thesis isn't that A/B/O smut is proliferating because pedophiles are trying to use it to groom kids by exposing them to extreme sexual content, you are doing a very poor job of explaining your thesis. And if you have any actual anything to support this besides 'everyone knows this is a thing people do to groom kids,' I've yet to see it.

 

[TanaNari]

If your thesis isn't that A/B/O smut is proliferating because pedophiles are trying to use it to groom teens by exposing them to extreme sexual content, you are doing a very poor job of explaining your thesis.

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Oh, it is... but, again, it's not some conspiracy theory or any sort of undocumented behavior.

In fact, it seems to happen with just about every medium that finds its way into appealing to younger teens with little or no adult supervision. As I said- youtube had a serious problem with it a few years back. They've... mostly... turned that tide around.

And this is because pedophiles, as anyone with a brain would realize, tend to target places with children lacking in adult supervision. Or set themselves up to be said supervision. That's why there's a disproportionate number of teachers, coaches, activity counselors for various youth groups, and priests molesting children as compared to the general population. In roughly descending order of commonality.


Writing erotic literature for potential victims is quite popular among pedophiles, since it A: gives them access to 'fans' of their work while starting the grooming process in a way that they can't be easily called out on, and B: signal-boosts which draws in more children to the fandom. Though, where possible, they go for fandoms that don't need much signal boosting.

As I said: they want lots of children/teens, and as little adult supervision as possible.

As noted above- the Omegaverse tends to propagate on sites that don't curate their audience (aka: places where there are children without adult supervision) or content (allowing for adult material). Because of that, those sites in particular are very popular for this sort of literary-groomer pedophile behavior.

Not due to any collaboration... they are not a flock of birds or herd of bison following the leader. They are a menagerie coming across the same watering hole on the savannah. And, when the water hole dries up, they'll move on to find a new one. As one does.

Really, it's less about Omegaverse and more about unregulated websites making it easy for pedophiles to reach a young audience to prey upon.

Right now, that fandom is just one of the currently popular ones. As Twilight was a few years back. As something else will be in a few more.


Now, if I were asked to explain why groomers producing porn for children and young teens go for such bizarre expressions of kink? I don't know, I'm not a pedophile. But it's pretty well documented, and you can see by a lot of the stuff that came out of the Twilight fandom (of which Fifty Shades was among the most tame and palatable to the mainstream).

My best guesses are A: Whatever it was that fucked their sexuality up enough to target children knocked a few other screws loose, B: They think an extreme enough fiction will make their desired sexual partners more inclined to more extreme real-world acts, or C: A weird sort of power creep, this time around escalating sexual debauchery.


Now, what part of that is the conspiracy theorist strawman you're accusing me of being?

 

[Amazon Climber]

Oh, it is... but, again, it's not some conspiracy theory or any sort of undocumented behavior.

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So what you're saying I was entirely accurate in reacting to your thesis, I just wasn't respectful enough in expressing my incredulity to it.

Okay.

That isn't what a strawman is. A strawman is presenting a different argument like it's yours, and responding to that. Presenting your argument and ridiculing it isn't a strawman. I responded to what you were actually saying, I just called it a conspiracy theory. Because, again, I don't know a better word to use for 'theory that would be a conspiracy theory if it was alleging collaboration instead of serendipity.'

Now, what part of that is the conspiracy theorist strawman you're accusing me of being?

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First, the phrase "disproportionate number" doesn't actually say anything as to the proportion of pedophiles to healthy folks. A quick Google search says up to 5% of people are pedophiles, and up to 10% of students have been victims of pedophilia. If we assume each student was preyed on by a different adult, then that'd mean teachers are 100% more likely to be pedophiles than the standard person. But that's still 90% of teachers who aren't pedophiles.

The reason why that matters is because, like with every other walk of life, the vast majority of smut authors aren't going to be pedophiles. Which means suggesting a smut trend is being driven by a tiny minority demographic - pedophiles - is an extraordinary claim. And that requires more than 'but it's totally a thing pedophiles would do, guys.'

And that's the meat of why I'm calling it a conspiracy theory. You have no justification for why child grooming is a more likely reason for the proliferation of A/B/O smut than any other possible explanation. In fact, you've presented several more likely explanations: It's simple follow-the-leader, it gets readers, people like the sense of community being an A/B/O writer is getting them, and will move on later. Just driven by the primary demographics of AO3 rather than a tiny subset. None of this supports the pedophilia connection. It's pure Facebook-tier scare-mongering nonsense.

As an aside, this is an erotic literature site whose verification process is 'tell me your age.' We're as secure as AO3, and likely as inundated with kids getting their smut on. You could make the exact same conspiracy theory involving any of the popular QQ trends. Do you understand how shitty throwing around that kind of allegation would be if you made it here?

 

[Autocorruptor]

I started working at a library recently. We have a section dedicated to paperback books. We get most of these books as donations from an old lady who donates when she finishes reading them. They are mostly romance books of some kind.

I shit you not, one of the paperbacks is called "My Immortal Highlander".

 

[TanaNari]

Well, now that I got my story out of the way, let's get back to this party.

So what you're saying

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... I find that every time someone opens a sentence with 'so you're saying', what they are about to say is going to be anything but what the person is actually saying.

This is no exception.

That isn't what a strawman is.

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You did it a-fucking-gain! Even your attempt to claim you're not using a strawman includes another strawman!

Presenting your argument and ridiculing it isn't a strawman.

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It wouldn't be, if you presented my actual argument. But you didn't. You haven't. And you're still not.

First, the phrase "disproportionate number" doesn't actually say anything as to the proportion

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Sure, but that wasn't really the point of the topic so much. If you'd like to go deeper into that tangent, we can do that. I'd like you to stop claiming I said stuff I never said, first, however.

A quick Google search says up to 5% of people are pedophiles

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Most studies get raw numbers are closer to 0.3% . And a significant majority of that .3% are... difficult to really nail down as pedophilia... like 12 year olds sexually experimenting with 7 or 8 year olds, or a remarkable percentage of child molesters that aren't attracted to children so much as attracted to the cruelty of the act.

It's all very complicated... but the belief that there's a total of 5% is... the most extreme possible extrapolation of what is observed and speculating on the unobserved- first accepting all edge cases 'totally count' and then adding to that the claim that over 90% of all pedophiles never act upon those urges.

In short: it's a pretty rare paraphilia. Less common, even, than such oddities as agalmatophilia (that's dolls and/or statues, if you're curious).

So rare that most people would likely never have even heard of it if it wasn't so destructive and shocking. 'If it bleeds, it leads' and all that jazz.

As opposed to Hebephilia, which is significantly more common and the overwhelming majority of sex crimes against minors.

because, like with every other walk of life, the vast majority of smut authors aren't going to be pedophiles

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See, I never said otherwise. I never said anything to imply otherwise, save in your imagination. You pretending I have is why I'm saying you're strawmanning my argument.

You have no justification for why child grooming is a more likely reason for the proliferation of A/B/O smut than any other possible explanation.

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The proliferation of extreme pornographic material on sites that make their material easily available to children and offer convenient access for the authors to interact with said children is generally caused by child groomers. Because those sorts of sites are where pedophiles typically look for targets.

Like I said- it's really more about the way certain websites manage themselves than any specific fandom. But for relatively niche fandoms- and Omegaverse is a very niche fandom- it doesn't require a great many to get involved to dramatically twist the culture. So niche even most people on this website have probably never heard of it.

I've only heard of it pretty recently (couple years ago, maybe?), myself. And I take active interest in these sorts of social patterns.

As an aside, this is an erotic literature site whose verification process is 'tell me your age.' We're as secure as AO3, and likely as inundated with kids getting their smut on.

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No, not really. Much as I have distaste for them in other aspects, they're actually pretty good about that, here.

I'm certain some of them have tried. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if one or two even succeeded... but there's too few users and too active a modbase for it to be any sort of real risk. There are fatter, easier, targets out there.

Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure AO3 even has mods. I mean, I'm sure they must... but I've not seen any actual evidence of such. Which makes them even more poorly moderated than Youtube.

 

[Darrenb209]

Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure AO3 even has mods. I mean, I'm sure they must... but I've not seen any actual evidence of such. Which makes them even more poorly moderated than Youtube.

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They have a nebulous "staff" who are as far as I can tell, as effective and visible as Fanfiction.net's moderation staff.

In other words, they might as well be a myth.

This is reinforced by the fact that the site officially allows only that which is legal, but they have tags upon tags of actually illegal content.

 

[Amazon Climber]

You did it a-fucking-gain! Even your attempt to claim you're not using a strawman includes another strawman!

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It wouldn't be, if you presented my actual argument. But you didn't. You haven't. And you're still not.

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I'm tired of this stupid conversation. I've responded to your argument. You admitted I did. Remember? "Oh, it is... but, again, it's not some conspiracy theory or any sort of undocumented behavior." And here you go, claiming I'm misrepresenting you, again. Without actually explaining how. Just fussing and fuming that I'm not giving sufficient deference to your unsourced and unsupported ranting.

Because, ultimately, that's all you've given me, over and over: 'This is a thing pedophiles could do, therefore it is a thing they have done.' Which is, once again, Facebook-tier bullshit. You, the person making a claim, have the burden of supporting it. Until you do, I'm giving you all the credulity you deserve.

 

[GhostHaxStomp]

I keep waking up in the middle of the night because of migraines from a sinus infection. I should probably get that dealt with instead of overdosing on Aleve, huh?

On the one hand, these headaches are a pretty convenient internal clock. On the other, I currently want to fight a woodchipper with my forehead. Decisions decisions…

 

[Secret Secretion]

While the former is suggestive, it doesn't take into account that forums, unlike fanfiction sites tend to trend towards either f/f or m/m in their fetish smut, not both. You get the occasional one of the other, but the norm tends to trend towards one or the other.

As for ABO, I would argue that's more because QQ has a sense of taste.

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Do you have examples of the forums trends? That sounds interesting.

Counterpoint: Waifu Catalog, Jumpchains in general, and the very distorted characterization of most fanfics. And there's almost no M/M here, period, which is much broader than just the lack of ABO. There's none of that classic Ao3 stuff, soul bonds, Marvel shipping, coffeeshop AUs, whatever's left of the Supernatural/Sherlock craze, etc. There's little stereotypical female writing, as opposed to the fight scene, harem, power fantasy stuff that's usual around Royal Road, which I would consider stereotypical male writing.

 

[MadGreenSon]

One of my young nephews has potential respiratory issues which require him to see a pulmonologist. The one he sees is located in an office park called "Town Square".

All in all, a sad but unremarkable story.

Then my other nephew, his older brother, used his trait of "interesting misspeaking" to tell people that "My little brother is with the pornologist in the town square."

 

[Daytripper]

So may shows to binge. It's so overwhelming.

 

[Johnlemmingson]

The only manga I finished reading from start to finish is rurouni kenshin

 

[Hyzenthlay]

Its funny. The more content there is, the less there is to enjoy. There's a certain grief to it -- that there is less and less of a way to ever know if your consumption is a good decision or not. Barry Schwartz describes it as "the paradox of choice", that satisfaction has diminishing returns based on the complexity of making the decision and the number of potential better answers which could have existed.

Maybe the trick is to pick one thing and go really hard on it, in a way nobody else has and to make that your thing for a while.

Worst comes to worst, you get a unique experience out of it that nobody else is capable of having, and that in and of itself is something you can't feel remorse for because it is yours, and yours alone.

 

[Autocorruptor]

I work in a library, and one of my coworkers is in charge of getting new books. She is getting more manga in the future, and asked me for more recommendations. However, I am no longer really active on the anime/manga scene, I don't have any recommendations.

Does anyone here know anything good? Preferably something rated p-13 or lower, because we are a public library and we don't want any porn in here.

 

[MadGreenSon]

I work in a library, and one of my coworkers is in charge of getting new books. She is getting more manga in the future, and asked me for more recommendations. However, I am no longer really active on the anime/manga scene, I don't have any recommendations.

Does anyone here know anything good? Preferably something rated p-13 or lower, because we are a public library and we don't want any porn in here.

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<shrug> The Shonen Jump catalog is probably okay

 

[Guardian Box]

I work in a library, and one of my coworkers is in charge of getting new books. She is getting more manga in the future, and asked me for more recommendations. However, I am no longer really active on the anime/manga scene, I don't have any recommendations.

Does anyone here know anything good? Preferably something rated p-13 or lower, because we are a public library and we don't want any porn in here.

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Spy x Family is recent, good and appropriately wholesome.

 

[Arc-on-Fire]

Man... after learning about what's happening to Ao3 right now. Makes me glad I didn't fucking sign up for an account.

 

[GhostHaxStomp]

What happened over there?

 

[Arc-on-Fire]

What happened over there?

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Well, I don't know if it treads over rule 8 or not so I'll play it safe. China, that's it.

 

[Treble]

If I had to find images of fantasy women/girls that are clothed or armoured properly, but are also barefoot- where should I go?

Artstation is difficult to navigate, but it's one of my sources. The other is just scrolling 4chan threads.

 

[GhostHaxStomp]

Not gonna lie that sounds really fuckin niche. I'd ask why but I'd rather not know.

Uh, best guess is looking for hobbit paladins I guess? Hobbits are typically barefoot, I think. Did just watch Lord of the Rings, though, so fuck if I know.

 

[Treble]

Not gonna lie that sounds really fuckin niche

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Absolutely is. Most I find have only foot fetish art or nude art.

I want a clothed barefoot woman.

 

[John_Oakman]

Absolutely is. Most I find have only foot fetish art or nude art.

I want a clothed barefoot woman.

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Go on danbooru, go to pools, look for casually barefoot (and not casual nudity). There.

 

[GhostHaxStomp]

Less Than Zero released its final update today. Hard to believe it's been 8 years since it started. Honestly, hard to believe it ended at all. Fanfiction usually putters out or gets canceled.

 

[A simple world]

Anyone watched the old Highlander series? Anyone thought what would happen if Methos returned back to the first time he awakened after his first death? The changes he can bring?

 

[JohnTitor]

I thought of taking the hare and bringing it to an animal shelter so it can actually be taken care of because this environment is not appropriate for an animal at all and the half-assed shit my sister is doing is fucking stupid.

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Please don't take it to a shelter (yet). First, because it will probably set of a fight between you and your sister, and second, because the shelter probably won't be a real great place for it. Most shelters don't have a whole lot of resources, and their attention is split many ways.

I'd suggest trying to teach your sister about how to take care of an animal, since it sounds like you know how. Try not to preach or command, instead try to demonstrate and show. Of course, there is a danger she'll use the opportunity to dump the responsibility on to you, so be cautious to set boundaries. Your sister sounds like she is a younger sibling?

 

[Ragnarok]

It's weird reading that there is a plasma shortage in the United States when every time I go into donate plasma the building is packed and there is a long line and over a dozen beds are always full. If they had more staff I suspect the beds would be filled to capacity

 

[crimsonobu]

...Is it just me or does this feel a little awkward?

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I don't really find it awkward.