General chat thread

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

BlackHadou said:
None of that has anything to do with order of operations, algebra, tan and cosin, etc. Literally all your saying is Americans use a different conversion. Congratulations, so do computers.

Its irrelevant to the discussion.

No, it matters in the sense that if the main international system is already often ignored or downplayed, why would there be much respect for other international standards? There often isn't. It's rather a crapshoot at best.

TanaNari said:
The ambiguity of this particular formula is how it is actually written, vs how it is interpreted.

Specifically, how people are taught to treat parenthesis isn't quite accurate. See, most places when they're teaching the math, teach you to see the 2(2+1) to read as 2x(2+1)- which, usually, is a correct read of it. But sometimes can get you in trouble.

Meanwhile, in actual order of operations reads #(#s) as all part of the parenthesis. If there is no operation between the first number and what's in the parenthesis, then you're supposed to read it as # iterations of the internal number.

2(2+1) could be just as accurately written as (2x2 + 1x2).

Not usually something that matters. Usually meaning 'exceptions exist' and this is one such exception.

The wrong way of reading parenthesis would, indeed, get a reading of 9. Because people look at it and interpret it (wrongly) as 6 ÷ 2 x (2 + 1), which absolutely comes out to 9.

While the accurate interpretation (as in, treating the 2 as connected to the parenthesis rather than a separate factor) would look something like 6 ÷ (2 x 2 + 1 x 2). Just as absolutely comes out to 1.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

The great thing is, that particular detail of "PEMDAS" literally never came up for me, and I got through three years of Calculus. Anything left to implication can be misinterpreted.

Hyp3rB14d3 said:
The government is sabotaging our education as part of a conspiracy to make us incapable of rising up against them.

Guardian Box said:
We need to help the victims of the american school system whenever we find them.

That is way less of an exaggeration of a point than it should be. And I say that as someone that enjoyed and did well in school overall.

Imperator Pax said:
There is no way that meme is real. I think, then I check to see if yes the phone calculators are in fact that wrong

... WTF

Guardian Box said:
Phone calculators are, in fact, exactly that wrong.

Scientific calculators require a specific math-focused microchip, apparently, so they can calculate things properly.

Phone calculators don't have to stand up to actual standards for things like this. So incorrect programming for crap like this is plausible, and sometimes inevitable.

Guardian Box · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
Phone calculators don't have to stand up to actual standards for things like this. So incorrect programming for crap like this is plausible, and sometimes inevitable.

I mean, what is an average person going to use a phone calculator for? Adding up a shopping grocery list as it comes along? They sure as hell aren't going to be solving slightly more involved functions to be sure.

For a simple domestic usage like that, a phone calculator is perfectly functional. For solving actual math problems?

Absolutely atrocious.

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
I mean, what is an average person going to use a phone calculator for? Adding up a shopping grocery list as it comes along? They sure as hell aren't going to be solving slightly more involved functions to be sure.

For a simple domestic usage like that, a phone calculator is perfectly functional. For solving actual math problems?

Absolutely atrocious.

I'm pretty sure if you are using a phone to help you with advanced math, and aren't using a service like Wolfram Alpha or a specifically-tuned calculating app, you're just asking for that sort of failure.

Amazon Climber · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
I'm pretty sure if you are using a phone to help you with advanced math, and aren't using a service like Wolfram Alpha or a specifically-tuned calculating app, you're just asking for that sort of failure.

Wolfram Alpha says the answer is 9.

Guardian Box · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
I'm pretty sure if you are using a phone to help you with advanced math, and aren't using a service like Wolfram Alpha or a specifically-tuned calculating app, you're just asking for that sort of failure.

If you are using a phone to help with advanced math, you are asking for trouble.

Amazon Climber said:
Wolfram Alpha says the answer is 9.

[X] Doubt

Longtimelurker · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
I'm pretty sure if you are using a phone to help you with advanced math, and aren't using a service like Wolfram Alpha or a specifically-tuned calculating app, you're just asking for that sort of failure.

If I had USD 1 for every time I had to bail a person out because the were trying to use %Tool% to try to do %Task Tool was in no way set up to do% and they were getting problems, I could fund QQ until Judgement Day

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

Longtimelurker said:
If I had USD 1 for every time I had to bail a person out because the were trying to use %Tool% to try to do %Task Tool was in no way set up to do% and they were getting problems, I could fund QQ until Judgement Day

That sounds like a general repair-person and maintenance-person problem; people are stupid and/or impatient. If you are in such a position, you have my respect and condolences.

TanaNari · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
No, it matters in the sense that if the main international system is already often ignored or downplayed, why would there be much respect for other international standards? There often isn't. It's rather a crapshoot at best.

What bullshit this is. Metric isn't a superior system, it just has easier conversion points for the human brain. We use a mathematically more difficult (for humans) system, not an inferior system.

Would be just as easy to accuse the rest of the world of being lazy, and that laziness being indicative of an overall inferior mindset.

Just as wrong, mind.

But just as easy.

Hatless Nuance said:
That is way less of an exaggeration of a point than it should be. And I say that as someone that enjoyed and did well in school overall.

The only part of it that's wrong is the implication that any other public school system on earth isn't at least equally fucked. Public education is a trainwreck no matter where you look.

Though I do love when European countries learn that our grading system is such that we consider 60% to barely be a passing grade.

In the UK, 40% is barely passing. And 70% an 'A'. While you need 90% to get an 'A' in the USA.

Even Japan holds the 'A' at 80+, though they also include an 'S' that's 90+. But also 50 is still a passing grade in their system.

... Of course, the real question of quality is not the scoring system, it's the material being taught, but the USA is hardly back of the pack in that regard. But there are still an awful lot of American students that get failed who would have been considered 'average' in most of Europe.

... Maybe America's problems are more like Japan's, with too-high standards and overwork, rather than somehow being stupid or lazy.

Guardian Box said:
[X] Doubt

[Click] to see proof you're wrong.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=6÷2(2+1)

... Seriously, though. You should at least do basic research before making snide remarks...

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
What bullshit this is. Metric isn't a superior system, it just has easier conversion points for the human brain. We use a mathematically more difficult (for humans) system, not an inferior system.

Would be just as easy to accuse the rest of the world of being lazy, and that laziness being indicative of an overall inferior mindset.

Just as wrong, mind.

But just as easy.

I was speaking less in the superiority sense than the idea that the system is very widely adopted as the main standard, and the US is the one major country still using an alternate measurement system consistently. More nationalism, really.

Imperator Pax · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
Phone calculators are, in fact, exactly that wrong.

Scientific calculators require a specific math-focused microchip, apparently, so they can calculate things properly.

Scientific calculators are an invention of the sixties I cannot fathom how that the phone calculator can in fact be that wrong it boggles the mind boggles I say

Treble · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
Metric isn't a superior system, it just has easier conversion points for the human brain

Your lack of self-awareness is concerning.

Bro, the fact that it's easier to use, by default, makes it superior. You guys just use an inferior, obsolete system out of spite.....which I respect, because we're the same.

TanaNari · Dec 14, 2023

Hatless Nuance said:
I was speaking less in the superiority sense than the idea that the system is very widely adopted as the main standard, and the US is the one major country still using an alternate measurement system consistently. More nationalism, really.

More of a "popular does not mean good" coupled with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Not to say we don't have our nationalism, but in this case it's more our cheerful willingness to tell other people where to stuff their opinions.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are many ways the metric system performs better... but there are also many where it performs worse.

Metric is a scientific system. It was designed by scientists, for scientists, to measure science. Great, for scientists.

Pretty shit at the whole "used by the human for real-world purposes" thing.

Imperial is a working system. It was designed by workers, for workers, to measure work. Great, for workers.

Pretty shit at the whole "easy to measure and calculate scientific results" thing.

Though, when looked at from that angle, there is certainly a mentality in America for why we stick to the 'working man system' over the 'scientific system'.

TheMidnightRook · Dec 14, 2023

Treble said:
Bro, the fact that it's easier to use, by default, makes it superior.

More convenient when converting from millimetres to kilometres or whatever means metric is superior when making those conversions, it doesn't make it superior at everything.

One could just at easily claim that because the inch was originally the width of a man's thumb, it is easier to make rough estimates with, and therefore superior to centimetres.

Treble · Dec 14, 2023

TheMidnightRook said:
One could just at easily claim that because the inch was originally the width of a man's thumb, it is easier to make rough estimates with, and therefore superior to centimetres.

Only if thumb width was standardized.

TheMidnightRook · Dec 14, 2023

Treble said:
Only if thumb width was standardized.

Tell me you don't know what a rough estimate is without something something

Treble · Dec 14, 2023

TheMidnightRook said:
Tell me you don't know what a rough estimate is without something something

Rough estimates are inefficient.

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
More of a "popular does not mean good" coupled with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Not to say we don't have our nationalism, but in this case it's more our cheerful willingness to tell other people where to stuff their opinions.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are many ways the metric system performs better... but there are also many where it performs worse.

Metric is a scientific system. It was designed by scientists, for scientists, to measure science. Great, for scientists.

Pretty shit at the whole "used by the human for real-world purposes" thing.

Imperial is a working system. It was designed by workers, for workers, to measure work. Great, for workers.

Pretty shit at the whole "easy to measure and calculate scientific results" thing.

Though, when looked at from that angle, there is certainly a mentality in America for why we stick to the 'working man system' over the 'scientific system'.

That also said, the Metric System is mainly a headache in the USA because we have adopted it piecemeal, when that really doesn't help for clarity. The Metric System has well-defined measurements for basically everything, while the measures for many things in the Imperial system are obscure at best (can you tell me the Imperial measurement for mass instead of weight?). It is lack of familiarity or effort that has kept the USA from making a change to the Metric System in full, or at least predominance (referred to as going from "soft metric" to "hard metric"). Most of the world deliberately chose and fully converted to the Metric System, and thus have unified measurements that are consistent.

The USA, for better or worse, never bothered. So we have to put up with dual-measurements on products and pound-to-kilogram conversions a lot more.

TanaNari · Dec 14, 2023

TheMidnightRook said:
One could just at easily claim that because the inch was originally the width of a man's thumb, it is easier to make rough estimates with, and therefore superior to centimetres.

Exactly. Most Imperial measurements are based off such logic.

Everyone thinks the mile is weird for being 5280 feet- and for good reason, it was never meant to be a measurement of feet.

It's a measurement of time.

Specifically, the distance a man should be able to walk in fifteen minutes (in good terrain).

Which is a good number to measure by for a working system. That is a number that will tell you how fast armies are moving. That is a number that will tell you the amount of food you need to carry when travelling.

Imperial is a system meant for visualization.

Hell, even Fahrenheit and Celsius (neither of which are actually imperial or metric) adhere to this logic.

Fahrenheit: 0F- About as cold as even a very well protected person will be able to handle outside. 32F freezing. 98 human skin. 100+ increasingly dangerous. Boiling water- 212 (because what human actually cares- this is far above the point where it matters).

All numbers between 0 and 100 are important numbers for humans to know, with a good scale between. A great system if the most important thing is human comfort and safety.

Celsius: 0C- Freezing point of water. 36.5ishC- Human skin temperature. 100C- Boiling point of water.

All important numbers for human life are between -20 and 40. It's a great system if the most important thing in your life is the behavior of water. A terrible system for human comfort and safety concerns.

Hatless Nuance said:
The Metric System has well-defined measurements for basically everything, while the measures for many things in the Imperial system are obscure at best (can you tell me the Imperial measurement for mass instead of weight?

The pound, actually. It serves as a valid mass measurement. No different than the gram in that regard.

Incidentally, as a sign that metric goes too far into 'scientific instead of working value'... the kilogram is used by most people as the main unit of measure, rather than the gram. Because 2.2 pounds is far more useful for daily life than .03 ounces. Only drug dealers and drug manufacturers measure anything in grams.

Though there's also the slug. Because why wouldn't we name a mass system after ammunition? But that's like 32lbs and nobody pays attention to it.

Guardian Box · Dec 14, 2023

[Click] to see proof you're wrong.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=6÷2(2+1)

Ah I see, you are a special person.

Input you've made the program interprets as literally (6/2) (2 + 1)

Which is obviously wrong, no engineering professor, no math professor, not even a single scientific calculator will ever display 6÷2(2+1) as anything else but 1 (one). But sure, some commercial website fucked up their calculations, I guess you are the messiah of mathematics and can easily redefine the basics of algorithmic calculations with your five minutes of google searches.

TanaNari said:
... Seriously, though. You should at least do basic research before making snide remarks...

I have made no snide remarks. I've stated an objective statement of fact. The fact that you are objectively wrong is entirely on you.

[EDIT]
Fuck, now I recall why my math professors always did tell us to do our calculations by hand instead of relaying on Wolfram Alpha.

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
The pound, actually. It serves as a valid mass measurement. No different than the gram in that regard.

Incidentally, as a sign that metric goes too far into 'scientific instead of working value'... the kilogram is used by most people as the main unit of measure, rather than the gram. Because 2.2 pounds is far more useful for daily life than .03 ounces. Only drug dealers and drug manufacturers measure anything in grams.

Though there's also the slug. Because why wouldn't we name a mass system after ammunition? But that's like 32lbs and nobody pays attention to it.

Oh right, the Slug was the one I had vaguely recalled. I don't know if it even has to do with ammo, though, in that context. It might be something else. But it is obscure and never used seriously.

Meanwhile, you do touch on a technical issue even with people in Metric-aligned places. The actual measure of weight in the International System is the Newton, a measure of force, because that's what weight is. But people give their mass instead, tending to stick to kilograms, yet in many practical cases, this works fine anyway. Pounds are a measure of weight often used as a measure of mass, while grams and especially kilograms are the other way around, a measure of mass used for weight.

Which only works because humans consistently operate under the mostly-stable gravitic field of the Earth, so those measures can often work interchangeably for usability. If you are in space or on another celestial body, good luck.

evildice · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
Ah I see, you are a special person.

You said you doubled that Wolfram Alpha got this math wrong.

He showed you that Wolfram Alpha does get this math wrong.

Why would you try to insult his intelligence for that? Kind of a bad look for you to guess wrong and then attack someone about it.

TanaNari said:
Fahrenheit: 0F- About as cold as even a very well protected person will be able to handle outside. 32F freezing. 98 human skin. 100+ increasingly dangerous. Boiling water- 212 (because what human actually cares- this is far above the point where it matters).

The story I heard in school was that 0°F was supposed to be where harbors froze (salt water), and 100°F was supposed to be normal adult human baseline, but apparently everyone was a bit feverish when the baseline measurement was taken, and harbors have different salination levels (and different inflow / outflow) so there isn't a harbor-freezing standard possible.

=====

Now I'm imagining an info-morph from the distant future looking at Celsius -- "Why would I care about H2O freezing or boiling at so-called standard atmospheric pressure? Who even has a so-called standard atmosphere anymore?"

Hatless Nuance · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
Input you've made the program interprets as literally (6/2) (2 + 1)

[EDIT]
Fuck, now I recall why my math professors always did tell us to do our calculations by hand instead of relaying on Wolfram Alpha.

evildice said:
You said you doubled that Wolfram Alpha got this math wrong.

He showed you that Wolfram Alpha does get this math wrong.

Why would you try to insult his intelligence for that? Kind of a bad look for you to guess wrong and then attack someone about it.

Now what did I say earlier about the issues with inferring things, which even programs can do? See the issue?

evildice said:
Now I'm imagining an info-morph from the distant future looking at Celsius -- "Why would I care about H2O freezing or boiling at so-called standard atmospheric pressure? Who even has a so-called standard atmosphere anymore?"

Celsius will be remembered as the initial basis for Kelvin. That's a pretty good legacy.

Guardian Box · Dec 14, 2023

evildice said:
You said you doubled that Wolfram Alpha got this math wrong.

He showed you that Wolfram Alpha does get this math wrong.

Why would you try to insult his intelligence for that? Kind of a bad look for you to guess wrong and then attack someone about it.

He clearly told me that in his opinion I was making 'snide remarks' when I expressed my (well founded) doubts about Wolfram Alpha's accuracy.

Amazon Climber · Dec 14, 2023

Treble said:
Rough estimates are inefficient.

On the contrary: They're extremely efficient. Just not very precise. But you're probably still going to make a good stew if you don't get out the protractor and ruler every time a recipe says to cut meat into 1" cubes.

Longtimelurker · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
Which is a good number to measure by for a working system. That is a number that will tell you how fast armies are moving. That is a number that will tell you the amount of food you need to carry when travelling.

Imperial is a system meant for visualization.

Every antecedent that I have biases me against it, but Imperial Units have some strengths.
Metric (or more accurately SI, which is essentially a superset of "Metric" as commonly understood) is by far the superior system when doing any sort of complex mathematical working out (especially dimensional analysis)
But Imperial units are set very conveniently for "reckoning things out" in a day to day setting (the foot is a wonderfully convenient measurement in day to day life, X pounds of Fermentables in Y gallons of water makes Z% abv is almost always a nicer ratio than in kg/l, etc.)

TanaNari · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
Ah I see, you are a special person.

... I'm the special one, when you were the one saying you doubted AC's claim that wolfram alpha said it was nine.

Then I posted the proof that wolfram alpha said it was nine.

And then you are the one who has the nerve to once again make snide comments. Even though it was, in fact, you who are wrong about AC being wrong.

Guardian Box said:
Fuck, now I recall why my math professors always did tell us to do our calculations by hand instead of relaying on Wolfram Alpha.

Clearly your math professors tried to teach you right.

Guardian Box said:
He clearly told me that in his opinion I was making 'snide remarks' when I expressed my (well founded) doubts about Wolfram Alpha's accuracy.

The way it's written plays like you're expressing doubts about AC's claims. Claims which were, in fact, correct.

evildice said:
The story I heard in school was that 0°F was supposed to be where harbors froze (salt water), and 100°F was supposed to be normal adult human baseline, but apparently everyone was a bit feverish when the baseline measurement was taken, and harbors have different salination levels (and different inflow / outflow) so there isn't a harbor-freezing standard possible.

The brine part is correct.

It was his successors, adjusting the scale to make the boiling point of water a round number (in as much as 212 is a round number), that ended up making 98.6 'blood temperature'.

Longtimelurker said:
Metric (or more accurately SI, which is essentially a superset of "Metric" as commonly understood) is by far the superior system when doing any sort of complex mathematical working out (especially dimensional analysis)
But Imperial units are set very conveniently for "reckoning things out" in a day to day setting

I like to think of it as "Imperial measures things on the human scale... the universe has made it abundantly clear that it doesn't care about the human scale..."

LeonLex · Dec 14, 2023

The answer is 9 for the way the question is displayed (cuz PEDMAS)
People get 1 because 6/2(2+1) is taught to be solved as 6/(2(2+1)) due to juxtaposition. It's implied that you are gonna do the multiplication then do the division.
It all comes down to writing shit better. Better to use multiple parenthesis than to write dumb shit.

As for the retarded Wolfram Alpha link, there's a thing there which says "math input".
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=Divide[6,2\(40)2+1\(41)]
Suddenly the result is 1.
Why? Cuz "math input" translates 6/2(2+1) to 6/(2 (2 + 1)).

Guardian Box · Dec 14, 2023

TanaNari said:
... I'm the special one, when you were the one saying you doubted AC's claim that wolfram alpha said it was nine.

Then I posted the proof that wolfram alpha said it was nine.

And then you are the one who has the nerve to once again make snide comments. Even though it was, in fact, you who are wrong about AC being wrong.

Sorry if I just got a little bit confused there for the moment. I thought you were speaking in defense of WA and their calculations instead of, apparently, taking a righteous steaming shit on their shitty excuse of a calculator.

Can we take a step back and hash out the details of what we agree with each other, instead of apparently talking past each other?

TanaNari · Dec 14, 2023

Guardian Box said:
Can we take a step back and hash out the details of what we agree with each other, instead of apparently talking past each other?

Sure.

Though I was specifically speaking in defense of AC- who was pointing out that WA got a '9' from that question when Hatless up there suggested using it.

At which point you quoted AC with that [x] to doubt thing. Which made it look very much like you were insulting him, rather than WA.

Now, much as AC and I don't often get along and generally disagree on almost everything either of us considers important, I'm not a big fan of that sort of behavior, that's why I stepped in. I'd suggest editing in a bit of clarification and apology to him for that.

As to wolfram alpha? I had never actually used it before, and therefor had no opinion to give. But it's clearly wrong about at least one important mathematical function... so I'm reminded of the "You had one job" meme.

When such a simple function screws up your purported calculator, it's not a good calculator. Not being able to handle the Reimann Hypothesis is one thing, but basic bitch middle school math? Bad calculator.

evildice · Dec 14, 2023

LeonLex said:
As for the retarded Wolfram Alpha link, there's a thing there which says "math input".
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=Divide[6,2\(40)2+1\(41)]
Suddenly the result is 1.
Why? Cuz "math input" translates 6/2(2+1) to 6/(2 (2 + 1)).

For the love of mercy, what the fuck do they think those numbers mean in non-"math input"?

How is it possible to come up with a non-"math" answer which is a single number?

Or is non-"math input" code for "idiot input" and it generates a meme value?

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