Is anti LGBTQ+ allowed here? Rule 9 violation

[OceanN]

My thread is about these posts:
Post in thread 'Systematic Shinobi (Naruto Gamer Insert)' https://forum.questionablequesting....inobi-naruto-gamer-insert.18222/post-11079069

In this thread the OP and other users used slurs and hate speech against LGBTQ+ people.
I know that in the context of stories, quests, and games it is allowed because of Rule 9. But repeating them yourself outside of the story against others crosses a line for me.

If the OP left the matter alone about this, it would have been fine. But instead kept saying things like this: https://forum.questionablequesting....inobi-naruto-gamer-insert.18222/post-11072656

and similar stuff in different posts. This is clear hate against the entire trans community.
There are also other instances of homophobia like saying "keep that faggy shit out of my threads".

OP didn't just use a slur and hateful rhetorik in their story. They repeated it outside of it with and with more hateful rhetoric.

Many LGBTQ+ people experience hate in real life and other online spaces. I thought that QQ would be different, since there are LGBTQ+ stories here too and because Rule 9 states:"Using them to refer to RL groups of people is also forbidden on the grounds that at least one of our users will be a part of just about any group, making it a Rule 1 violation."

The moderator just banned everyone for a week and moved on. The author got a slap on the wrist and nothing more. This tells me that hate speech is allowed here.

I am disappointed. I really like QQ and don't want to leave, but after this, I don't feel welcome here.

Is this a Rule 9 violation?

 

[ThedudeManBro]

Haaaah, classic Jordinio. Man has Toxically insecure masculinity down to a Tate.

Happily enough and by my experience, people like him and his Jordlings are rare to be bothered, and are mostly stuck in their own bubble... Mostly because when ppl like that slip out they get banned in other threads.

You don't need to feel threatened or unwelcome here friend, they are the minority Best to put him on ignore and you'll find that a huge chunk of toxic anti-lgbt will magically... Disappear.

 

[BoredKing98]

My thread is about these posts:
Post in thread 'Systematic Shinobi (Naruto Gamer Insert)' https://forum.questionablequesting....inobi-naruto-gamer-insert.18222/post-11079069

In this thread the OP and other users used slurs and hate speech against LGBTQ+ people.
I know that in the context of stories, quests, and games it is allowed because of Rule 9. But repeating them yourself outside of the story against others crosses a line for me.

If the OP left the matter alone about this, it would have been fine. But instead kept saying things like this: https://forum.questionablequesting....inobi-naruto-gamer-insert.18222/post-11072656

and similar stuff in different posts. This is clear hate against the entire trans community.
There are also other instances of homophobia like saying "keep that faggy shit out of my threads".

OP didn't just use a slur and hateful rhetorik in their story. They repeated it outside of it with and with more hateful rhetoric.

Many LGBTQ+ people experience hate in real life and other online spaces. I thought that QQ would be different, since there are LGBTQ+ stories here too and because Rule 9 states:"Using them to refer to RL groups of people is also forbidden on the grounds that at least one of our users will be a part of just about any group, making it a Rule 1 violation."

The moderator just banned everyone for a week and moved on. The author got a slap on the wrist and nothing more. This tells me that hate speech is allowed here.

I am disappointed. I really like QQ and don't want to leave, but after this, I don't feel welcome here.

Is this a Rule 9 violation?

Click to shrink...

Seriously? Look, like every single person on here, Ao3, Spacebattles, etc. says "If you don't like it then don't read it." Jordino has his views and it's his thread and story, you don't have to engage with him. Stop trying to get someone in trouble just because you don't like their views.

 

[Vanbers]

Is this a Rule 9 violation?

Click to shrink...

No, it's a difference in political opinion by someone who, while absolutely caustic, does not share your political beliefs. Not everyone is going to believe what you do, especially in regards to things as divisive as identity politics, which is partially why things like Rule 8 exist.

What you should do is just put him on ignore and move on with your life.

What you shouldn't do is make a thread not-so-subtly accusing the mods of being bigots because one person out of the swathe of bans on both sides of the issue from that thread didn't get punished 'enough' for you while effectively demanding they make a stand and take a hard political stance 'or else'. Which is what your 'oh I don't feel safe here because you're not punishing him hard enough I'd sure hate to leave hint hint' thing feels like.

Honestly, at most this seems like a thing that could have been an appeal. Rather than a big dramatic post calling out the mods.

 

[Aureus]

The problem in that thread was people making personal attacks on other users, ignoring mod warnings and the topic being relevant to modern politics. The forum itself does not care for advocating a political stance, since QQ is for porn.

 

[0Jordinio0]

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[1eyed1]

This feels like standard crybullying.

 

[Savinkov]

The guy been here since 2021 and has only 6 posts on this forum. 4 of the 6 are on jordinio's story.

 

[Dabronyakumadznts]

Thanks for the chuckle.

Click to shrink...

Hey it's the star of the show

Anyways
Just ignore the guy
Though for me I don't do that cause for me locking my mind to those who challenge my worldview is detrimental
Even those ideas in the extremes
There still knowledge in there

About LGBTQ
I don't mind them
But i like to just gloss over them
It's just not to my taste (menxmen) (especially furry!menxfurry!men)
Yuri is a go!!!
I'll admit and I abhor gays If they are gaying in my LOS
But I know for a fact gays can throw a punch
Even if they're gays they are still have that ability to throw hands

 

[Bogsmi]

I mean... grow the fuck up is what Id say... there is a lot of stuff I also don't enjoy, but like trying to make others get in trouble for others cause you didn't feel comfortable with something personally? Totally idiotic.

Just stop reading if you don't like it, and don't interact! Oh and none of that 'I like his works so I wanna be comfortable bullshit', since no one cares about that and they shouldn't. There is no responsibility on the author to carter to your likes and dislikes.

Also just to note, in fictional works you see slavery, rape, killings and what not nearly every single time, and you have no complain at all, but when somebody says a 'bad word' that's hateful and not ok? Wtf, get a life!

Finally I also saw the initial argument, and you provoked Jord to repeat that stuff out of the story cause you couldn't disengage and just stop, so don't pretend to be a victim since it just feels like you're an entitled jerk that thinks everything should carter to his tastes.

 

[maidenoforleones]

Uhhh, may god save this site from becoming SB/SV. Anyway slurs only have as much power as you give them, if you dislike the word "fag" just ignore Jord.

 

[Idkusername]

As I understand it, Rule 8 was implemented ostensibly because QQ does not have the staff to handle the reports that would have been generated otherwise. As a natural consequence of no-politics rules, marginalised people are often the ones who get the shorter end of the stick because micro-aggressions aren't visibly rule-breaking enough to be flagged and the people defending themselves tend to get hit, and in the case of QQ in particular the mods have to rely on Rule 1 (personal attacks) to deal with such matters. Being polite is not the same as being nice.

Speaking of your topic specifically, while I do agree that he said some vile stuff and should have been hit with a thread-ban irregardless of whether he was the OP or not, making an appeal or contacting a mod would be a better way to do it, or wading into High Noon if you've got thick enough skin for it.

QQ might not allow hostile language or the like, but you're right that it's not a safe space either.

 

[Megaolix]

With a thread title like that, there is no way this is going anywhere good. Locked.

@OceanN
If you wanted to protest a mod action, that is what appeal is for. But expect more from us later for what you did.

 

[ultima333]

In this thread the OP and other users used slurs and hate speech against LGBTQ+ people.
I know that in the context of stories, quests, and games it is allowed because of Rule 9. But repeating them yourself outside of the story against others crosses a line for me.

Click to shrink...

One of the biggest things the moderation team tries to keep in mind is objectivity.
This is because we value freedom of creativity and expression. We also are a forum for fun, and want everyone to have a good time, without hate or anger.
These two things are sometimes at odds, and it really creates a line that the moderation staff have to straddle encouraging a fun and welcoming environment, while still allowing freedom of expression.

The way that QQ goes about this is by striving to be objective in moderating the forum, and base our rules on playing nice with other users. We allow users to express their opinions, so long as they do not cross lines or insult other users. Sometimes people say some shitty things that not everyone is going to think is kosher, but what that is is going to vary from person to person. Sometimes, it's not terribly clear where the 'objective' line is going to be.
There are definitely times people say things that I, personally, strongly disagree with- but hold myself to looking and asking "is this crossing an unambiguous, objective line in targeting other users?"

Some of what @Idkusername said is right- there are absolutely things that fly under the radar, dogwhistles that aren't seen by any but the perpetrator and their victim, or posts are too vague to render a judgement on. I understand that can be incredibly frustrating.

It's not a perfect system by any means. However, it is a system that keeps us from being petty tyrants, or from having different moderators with vastly different judgments based on the mods' personal, subjective views and opinions, or from having a forum whose allowed content changes every few years with changing views or changing staff.

It's a system that's kept the site alive for over a decade now.
Hopefully, it will continue to keep the forum alive for another.

 

[Queen Fiona]

...given what happened in the thread that spawned this (and Jord in particular getting muted in the end), though...

if you fuck around enough, eventually you will find out.

 

[Idkusername]

It's a system that's kept the site alive for over a decade now.
Hopefully, it will continue to keep the forum alive for another.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it's just kind of an uncomfortable truth that to have the kind of freedom of expression QQ allows, you have to make some concessions, and I will never disagree with QQ's decision to separate user behaviour from their fiction.

Speaking only of this case in particular, I don't think calling homosexuality "faggy shit" should deserve a mere one week threadban, since it seems to be part of a larger pattern.

Creative expression is great, but the larger freedom QQ affords its users should also ideally come with strong messaging on what kinds of interpersonal behaviours i.e. sincerely held bigotry instead are absolutely not okay.

It's a different albeit related conversation whether trying to expand the mod team might undermine the kind of moderation that has allowed QQ to be successful so far.

 

[Queen Fiona]

Yeah, it's just kind of an uncomfortable truth that to have the kind of freedom of expression QQ allows, you have to make some concessions, and I will never disagree with QQ's decision to separate user behaviour from fiction.

Speaking only of this case in particular, I don't think calling homosexuality "faggy shit" should deserve a mere one week threadban, since it seems to be part of a larger pattern.

Creative expression is great, but the larger freedom QQ affords its users should also ideally come with strong messaging on what kinds of interpersonal behaviours i.e. sincerely held bigotry instead are absolutely not okay.

It's a different albeit related conversation whether trying to expand the mod team might undermine the kind of moderation that has allowed QQ to be successful so far.

Click to shrink...

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

...well, there are freedoms I don't want to give up. That's why I'm here, despite everything. Well, that and no small amount of spite. Ask me about the incident that made me quit SV sometime. So I'm willing to put up with a lot of shit that makes me uncomfortable for that reason. But, y'know, there's always a line, and you probably shouldn't dance right on it on the assumption no one will ever convict you.

Really, though. Considering how willing people are to just overtly thumb their noses at the mods and the rules for things like this, you can kind of understand why our thread OP thought a public callout post was warranted. It ain't procedure, but considering how many people got hit when that thread was finally looked over, it's understandable that someone would maybe think reporting wouldn't be enough. Someone who's new to a thread like that and sees all that happening and compares it to the rules, well...it's not how it should be done, but it's frankly a reasonable question.

Seriously, just one of those mod posts was just a gigantic list of people getting one-week threadbans. Rule 9 is pretty clearly stated, but people do still think it doesn't exist and also Rule 8 means 'I can say whatever awful shit I want because it's Not Political', even with the clarifications. And then people get surprised when it actually happens that those rules are enforced.

I believe the term is: 'talk shit, get hit'.

And hey, I was rejected for mod signups, y'know.

 

[randomlightning]

Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, I have to point out that it does seem like this type of anti-LGBTQ bigotry just gets to slide under the radar a lot. I can easily understand OPs reasoning for posting this thread, this isn't exactly an uncommon thing. And it certainly wasn't a minor case, it was truly rampant in the thread, I'm pretty sure the mod post listing infractions has a higher word count than some of my chapters.

Honestly, I think it's kinda telling that the literal first response to OP was someone saying, "Classic Jordinio." This isn't something unexpected from him, and honestly, it didn't shock me either. He has a reputation, both on site and offsite for being exactly like this. What does shock me is that he only got a mute for what is clearly a larger trend in his behavior that multiple users are aware of offhand.

 

[Segue]

Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, I have to point out that it does seem like this type of anti-LGBTQ bigotry just gets to slide under the radar a lot. I can easily understand OPs reasoning for posting this thread, this isn't exactly an uncommon thing. And it certainly wasn't a minor case, it was truly rampant in the thread, I'm pretty sure the mod post listing infractions has a higher word count than some of my chapters.

Honestly, I think it's kinda telling that the literal first response to OP was someone saying, "Classic Jordinio." This isn't something unexpected from him, and honestly, it didn't shock me either. He has a reputation, both on site and offsite for being exactly like this. What does shock me is that he only got a mute for what is clearly a larger trend in his behavior that multiple users are aware of offhand.

Click to shrink...

That said, the fundamental question we keep coming back to is "so what do we do about it?"

It seems to be the common belief that much of what might be done in response to this behavior/reputation that may be punitive would infringe upon what makes QQ a place a lot of people feel comfortable in.

Meanwhile, it also seems that getting people to use the Ignore function is also a valid and tractable solution.

I think I have a bunch of people ignored. But I come from the TFF days, so I am a little more laissez-faire about moderation than many when I see things I don't like.

 

[Fanof1]

At the end of the day being a mod is mostly (about 90% as a guesstimate) being a reactive force. If your not reporting the rule violations they probably won't find them. And mods are people to, they have ethere own biases* to navigate and there desire to just use the forum.

*Everyone has biases, if you say you have none your lying.

Click to shrink...

The first sentence of the quote is what im referring to, the second sentence refers to the discussion in that thread.

People in thread were either comfortable with what was happening and didn't want to report it, or they (somehow) didn't know other readers were being problematic.

If you think somethings crossing the line don't assume someone else already did a report, do it yourself, or click the ignore user button if you feel uncomfortable bothering the mods.
I know I've wasted the mods time before with reports, but I don't regret making my reports (unless it's a fat finger report on mobile).

 

[CrunchySharpie]

That said, the fundamental question we keep coming back to is "so what do we do about it?"

It seems to be the common belief that much of what might be done in response to this behavior/reputation that may be punitive would infringe upon what makes QQ a place a lot of people feel comfortable in.

Meanwhile, it also seems that getting people to use the Ignore function is also a valid and tractable solution.

I think I have a bunch of people ignored. But I come from the TFF days, so I am a little more laissez-faire about moderation than many when I see things I don't like.

Click to shrink...

Speaking as someone who got slapped by SV because of their overly zealous mods for a similar subject, using terminology they didn't like (I basically said something along the lines of "I actually like traps" in defense of the terminology and its function both as a kink and a lifestyle) and haven't signed into the site since then because of it. Unless you're actively seeking out a hugbox or safespace, interacting with other people will invariably earn you opinions you're not going to like.

Some might not agree with it, but so long as it's not a call to action or a direct attack on someone then it shouldn't be slapped down unless it gets to a point where it's obviously a problem for thread cohesion. coherency and relevance. Calling gay stuff "faggy shit" is not inherently an attack on anyone in specific (No matter the negative conatations), nor is it trying to incite anything when someone asks to keep it out of their thread. Just like I personally wouldn't want someone to start posting Guro, loli/shota, or scat content in one of my threads.

They're -cruedly, granted- disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle, some people may -vehemently- disagree with that stance, and that's their right, but there will be an equal number that do agree with it to one degree or another, or are just apathetic about it, or perhaps simply do not wish to engage with it due to preference.

People are allowed a opinion (Shitty or otherwise), just as they are subject to ridicule for such opinions if you feel like engaging. If that kind of engagement starts to carry on a bit too long, or gets a bit too heated, that's when mods step in. But other than that I agree with the sentiment of using the ignore button, it exists for a reason so disregarding it's use and going for the nuclear option of trying to browbeat the mods into excessive action or overreacting moderation seems kind of... equally as shitty and a waste of energy.

Or maybe that's just me getting old and realizing ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[Valeshin]

I thought the thread was locked because you know, it was just pointless when the guy could talk to the mods, I don't even know why Ultima felt the impending need to open it again - guess the bias is showing

 

[Idkusername]

Not all opinions are created equal, or deserving of respect or being platformed. QQ shouldn't take a political stance, fine, I agree with that. But allowing some things to be said or posted on your platform without any or enough pushback can also be an inherently political statement whether it is intended as one or not.

 

[eQzy]

I am from Russia and I am prohibited by law from supporting LGBT. Here, people are literally put in jail for supporting all abnormal people.
I don't know, it's so wild for me to complain about other people's views instead of expressing my own opinion.

 

[Valeshin]

Not all opinions are created equal, or deserving of respect or being platformed. QQ shouldn't take a political stance, fine, I agree with that. But allowing some things to be said or posted on your platform without any or enough pushback can also be an inherently political statement whether it is intended as one or not.

Click to shrink...

Fine, I won't comment on Jord's temporary ban, disagreeing or not, but if most people got hit according to the rules, then wouldn't this entire thread a breach of rule1, a personal attack on a individual who at the moment can't even answer with his own argument, regardless of it being right or wrong? I feel it's very hypocritical and power tripping, especially when the thread was suddenly reopened. I'm probably getting hit with a ban or warn through, considering the way things are going.

 

[Wargamer08]

Not all opinions are created equal, or deserving of respect or being platformed. QQ shouldn't take a political stance, fine, I agree with that. But allowing some things to be said or posted on your platform without any or enough pushback can also be an inherently political statement whether it is intended as one or not.

Click to shrink...

You're right, if QQ doesn't crack down on all the authors of rape and underage stories then that must be a deliberate political endorsement of sexual assault and pedophilia. Wait, no that would be ridiculous and against the entire spirit of the site.

What's also ridiculous is accounts with literally 6 posts making premeditated takedown attempts on author accounts with over 6000 posts.

 

[Idkusername]

You're right, if QQ doesn't crack down on all the authors of rape and underage stories then that must be a deliberate political endorsement of sexual assault and pedophilia. Wait, no that would be ridiculous and against the entire spirit of the site.

Click to shrink...

You need to learn to read.

Yeah, it's just kind of an uncomfortable truth that to have the kind of freedom of expression QQ allows, you have to make some concessions, and I will never disagree with QQ's decision to separate user behaviour from their fiction.

Click to shrink...

I'm perfectly capable of separating fiction from reality, a distinction you seem to have trouble understanding.

What's also ridiculous is accounts with literally 6 posts making premeditated takedown attempts on author accounts with over 6000 posts.

Click to shrink...

So? What the fuck does that matter? I don't care if Jord or whoever is fucking Jesus Christ himself, he said what he said and frankly he got off lightly.

If you want to keep making a fool of yourself take it up in Rants or don't expect a reply from me because I've been restraining myself from replying to the variety of shit takes littering this thread and I didn't want to cause the mods to lock this thread again.

 

[Daddycool101]

As others have said, ignore that person and his stories. This may sound unhelpful, but a few years ago I came across some things in a fic that soured my outlook towards the fic, I just dropped that story. It's as easy as that.

 

[An_absolute_disaster]

You're right, if QQ doesn't crack down on all the authors of rape and underage stories then that must be a deliberate political endorsement of sexual assault and pedophilia. Wait, no that would be ridiculous and against the entire spirit of the site.

What's also ridiculous is accounts with literally 6 posts making premeditated takedown attempts on author accounts with over 6000 posts.

Click to shrink...

That's not what the discussion is about. Things depicted in stories are obviously more tolerated, I've not seen anyone suggesting what you're seemingly reacting to.

The thread is arguing about if people should be able to post thing outside of depictions in stories. A character being depicted as a homophobic tool is fine, someone being a homophobic tool on the forum is less cool, clearly, but should it involve moderator action?

I would not expect moderator action if someone were (to use your example), argue that pedophilia or rape is good and fine in the real world, as long as you aren't also arguing that it should be made legal (rule 8 about political discussion).

But if we use OPs example, and someone was arguing that homosexuals are immoral and disgusting in the real world, I would expect moderator action since it is about an identity, not an action, and rule 9 applies.

(I would also expect someone calling rape survivors bad things to run afoul of rule 9, and someone wanting to outlaw homosexuality to run into rule 8. One is about actions, the other about people.

It gets real muddy where someone insists that homosexuality is a lifestyle, a choice, and action, and they disagree with that action without calling for political change. And that's what the thread is about. )

 

[Vanbers]

I'm gonna be honest here. I kind of really, really don't think this thread should have been reopened.

Mostly because it's so utterly clear to me that it's just Rule 8 bait at this point. Everyone has already said all pertinent things that don't cross that line, at this point it's just tap dancing along it by begging people to chime in with their personal opinions.

The thread is arguing about if people should be able to post thing outside of depictions in stories. A character being depicted as a homophobic tool is fine, someone being a homophobic tool on the forum is less cool, clearly, but should it involve moderator action?

Click to shrink...

No it's not. The thread was made by someone salty the person they argued with wasn't punished enough. It's that simple.

It's just using the 'Rule 9' thing as set dressing for it because they were threadbanned in the original thread. And people are leaping on it because it's a way for them to try and vaguely get around Rule 8.