Shadow Stalker - Advent of a Hero [Worm AU]

[Ack]

Not really, there was some definite Char development there. Not a complete 180 and the whole Khepri thing opened up a Regent shaped mindwound, but there honestly was a little camaraderie forming.

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Even when she was talking to Taylor, after two years of being in juvey (and having known Taylor was Skitter for nearly all of that time) she straight-out took credit for Taylor having turned out so badass. Assumed that Taylor was intentionally copying her. And then she got upset when it appeared to her that Taylor might be holding a grudge for the year and a half of bullying. And after it was all over? She went straight back to being a vigilante.

 

[alethiophile]

Even at the end, Sophia was not anything nearly approaching reasonable. But she also wasn't precisely the same person she was at the beginning, even if her trajectory was similar.

 

[DoggySoup]

I repeat:

"Some stuff was left unresolved," Shadow Stalker said.

"Regent stuff? Oh, hey, if you really want to get into that stuff, we could bond. Paint each other's nails, do the frozen bra sleepover thing, I always wanted to do that. I could talk about how fond I was of him, and you could talk about wanting to kill him, and then we both commiserate over heartbreak, in the various forms it takes. Then, if we've had a few drinks along the way…"

[...]

Imp trailed off.

"We didn't earn our victory, and people wear that shit like it's a badge of honor. We were puppets, we got used."

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I repeat, massive Mastering shaped button that was inadvertently danced on like it was a DDR machine.

 

[Ack]

I repeat:



I repeat, massive Mastering shaped button that was inadvertently danced on like it was a DDR machine.

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Yup. Sophia "I'm strong, I control my own destiny" Hess got butthurt because she, along with virtually every surviving cape out there, got used as a puppet to act in unison to a degree she never would have accepted or gone along with if given a choice ...

... all because she was captured and used as a decoy (and then screwed around with some more) because she was trying to commit murder.

In case you're wondering about sympathy, don't look for it here.

The only real difference between Sophia at the end of the story and Sophia at the beginning is that the endpoint!Sophia would be more likely to try to kill a Master ... oh, wait. She was already a murderous psycho bitch. She's not widening her viewpoint, not attempting to help with larger issues ... just being Sophia. "There's a criminal, I'll go and beat him up." No real evidence, even, that she's improved her attitude as regards when and where she'll intervene. In fact, as I recall, she was considering attacking the Heartbroken just ... well, because.

 

[Prince Charon]

Yup. Sophia "I'm strong, I control my own destiny" Hess got butthurt because she, along with virtually every surviving cape out there, got used as a puppet to act in unison to a degree she never would have accepted or gone along with if given a choice ...

... all because she was captured and used as a decoy (and then screwed around with some more) because she was trying to commit murder.

In case you're wondering about sympathy, don't look for it here.

The only real difference between Sophia at the end of the story and Sophia at the beginning is that the endpoint!Sophia would be more likely to try to kill a Master ... oh, wait. She was already a murderous psycho bitch. She's not widening her viewpoint, not attempting to help with larger issues ... just being Sophia. "There's a criminal, I'll go and beat him up." No real evidence, even, that she's improved her attitude as regards when and where she'll intervene. In fact, as I recall, she was considering attacking the Heartbroken just ... well, because.

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Basically, Sophia was someone who would have benefited from a good and competent psychologist, if she were willing to cooperate with one, but was too screwed up to care, or to consider the possibility that she might be mistaken.

 

[DoggySoup]

bluh bluh subjective character interpretation.

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Honestly I feel more arguing with you due to your tone more than anything else.

 

[Ack]

Honestly I feel more arguing with you due to your tone more than anything else.

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I don't like Sophia.

There's not much to like.

Therefore, for the purpose of this story, I gave her something to be likeable about.


As for "subjective":

a) if Emma had not fought back, Sophia would not have stepped in to prevent the ABB from doing anything they wanted to her - robbery, rape, kidnap for sex slavery, murder, whatever.
At the end of the story, there is nothing to indicate that her priorities are any different.

b) She guided Emma into a course of action that led her to betray her best friend, tormenting her over a course of eighteen months, the climax being Sophia shoving her into her own locker, said locker being two-thirds full of used feminine hygiene products that had been fermenting over the last two weeks or so.

c) When Taylor came back to the school after this, Sophia egged some boys into chasing her after school. With duct tape. Because nothing could ever go wrong when a bunch of overexcited boys from a school from the nasty side of town corners a girl that everyone sees as a loser and a victim anyway.

d) When Taylor had the audacity to complain to the school, and then kissed a cute boy in front of her, Sophia attacked her in public, from behind, making a damn good try at ripping her ear off. This is for complaining about stuff that Sophia had done.

e) When Sophia encountered Grue (note that this is after she's joined the Wards), she decided that he was her nemesis. So she set out to murder him, using arrows that she had been banned from using. Not capture. Murder.

f) When Skitter found out her secret identity by accident but the PRT let her go (due to Tattletale) once again, Sophia decided that the appropriate course of action was to track her down and not capture her, not even unmask her so that they were equal. But to murder her. And she made a damn good try at it.

g) When Sophia found out that Taylor was Skitter, she threw a massive temper tantrum that involved kicking in the TV that showed the news; she had to be restrained. Because she couldn't handle the information that the 'weakling' was actually the one behind her downfall. Again.

h) When Taylor came to recruit Sophia for the end of the world mission, Sophia tried (perhaps) to kill her by kicking a chair through the wall (if it had solidified inside Taylor, she would have died). At the very least, that was her going 'fuck-you' to someone who could easily have had much worse than mere punishment happen to her.

i) When they were trying to attract the attention of the Simurgh and Taylor told Sophia to get out on the roof, Sophia honestly thought that Taylor was paying her back for all the tormenting and she got upset over this. Like Taylor didn't have the right to exact revenge. Even if that was what she was doing, which it wasn't.


I could go on. I don't think I need to.

 

[DoggySoup]

As for "subjective":

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Yes, this is how subjectivity works. You've pointed out the obviously bad parts and then made doubts about her on the arguably neutral parts, to the extent where you can confidently say stuff like "if Emma had not fought back, Sophia would not have stepped in to prevent the ABB from doing anything they wanted to her - robbery, rape, kidnap for sex slavery, murder, whatever.".

I mean, I've talked about Sophia before. I could mention how she's one of the few parahumans with a normie friend out there, How she still went for heroism even though she's a particularly murderous and short sighted case of 'pollentia induced temper syndrome' I could mention how she actually could have redeemed herself if a lot of the things relating to her in canon were gone or changed (Which was a good amount of the premise of your fic). I know she's the least heroic heroine in BB. I just don't subscribe to her being some 2D psychopath like fanon claims she is.

 

[Ack]

Yes, this is how subjectivity works. You've pointed out the obviously bad parts and then made doubts about her on the arguably neutral parts, to the extent where you can confidently say stuff like "if Emma had not fought back, Sophia would not have stepped in to prevent the ABB from doing anything they wanted to her - robbery, rape, kidnap for sex slavery, murder, whatever.".

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Point of fact: until Emma fought back, Sophia was watching. Waiting for her to fight back.
Point of fact: the ABB were actually robbing the Barneses. Sophia wasn't stopping them. She was watching Emma.
Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

I mean, I've talked about Sophia before. I could mention how she's one of the few parahumans with a normie friend out there,

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Legend is married. Skitter has Sierra and the rest of her group. Sophia had Emma, who had latched on to Sophia's personal philosophy and provided positive feedback, justifying Sophia's belief in what she was doing. The Ward (!) and her normie friend turned on the normie friend's previous best friend in a psychotically vicious fashion and proceeded to attempt to drive her to suicide over the next eighteen months. That is not a good or normal relationship.

How she still went for heroism even though she's a particularly murderous and short sighted case of 'pollentia induced temper syndrome'

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No, she went for beating people up in a way that the law approved of, thus validating her own worldview and allowing her to beat more people up. Which also allowed her to bully an innocent teenage girl to the brink of suicide for shits and giggles. Heroic. Yeah. As a 'hero', she allowed those victims she saved to retaliate upon the perps even after the perps were subdued. Again, heroic. She actually states to Emma that she's happy that Leviathan hit BB because it got rid of a lot of the comforts, made things more law-of-the-jungle. Just before she attempted to break the law by murdering a villain. Which was not her first time at attempting to murder someone who wasn't trying to kill her, or even killing someone.
She had so many second chances, so many times she could have pulled herself up and said, "Hey, what am I doing?" But she never took even one of them.

I could mention how she actually could have redeemed herself if a lot of the things relating to her in canon were gone or changed (Which was a good amount of the premise of your fic). I know she's the least heroic heroine in BB. I just don't subscribe to her being some 2D psychopath like fanon claims she is.

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So in other words, if she was a different person, she would be a different person?

 

[DoggySoup]

Point of fact: until Emma fought back, Sophia was watching. Waiting for her to fight back.
Point of fact: the ABB were actually robbing the Barneses. Sophia wasn't stopping them. She was watching Emma.
Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

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You actually believe this. There is no actual rebuttal needed. I just have to say "This is what you believe".

Legend is married. Skitter has Sierra and the rest of her group. Sophia had Emma, who had latched on to Sophia's personal philosophy and provided positive feedback, justifying Sophia's belief in what she was doing. The Ward (!) and her normie friend turned on the normie friend's previous best friend in a psychotically vicious fashion and proceeded to attempt to drive her to suicide over the next eighteen months. That is not a good or normal relationship.

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Note that Legend was a Cauldron cape (And thus didn't have alien worms chanting "Fight fight fight" in his brain 24/7) and Skitter's allies were only parts of her cape identity as she pretty much abandoned her normal life after running away in Leviathan's wake, but sure, those totally count.

No, she went for beating people up in a way that the law approved of, thus validating her own worldview and allowing her to beat more people up.

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Brain parasites going "Fight fight fight". Just pointing that out. It's like, 90% of the issues everyone faces.

She had so many second chances, so many times she could have pulled herself up and said, "Hey, what am I doing?" But she never took even one of them.

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No, not really. Reflection doesn't come out of nowhere, there needs to be some sort of trigger for a reaction. Emma is a great example of somebody who actually does have those moments several times, but she deliberately ignores them, even after triggering Taylor. The only time she did listen was once Taylor was outed in Arcadia, and you know the result of all that.

I mean, the one example of self reflection is here:

Silence hung on the line for a few long moments.

"I remember," Emma spoke, a touch subdued.

Shadow Stalker chewed on her lower lip, watched a butch policewoman pull into the parking lot, then hand out coffees to the others on duty.

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Which is pointedly silent, surprisingly.

Contrast this with Emma's interlude:

"Feel better?" Sophia asked.

Better? No. Emma couldn't bring herself to feel guilty or ashamed, but… it didn't feel good.

That knot of negative emotion was tempered by a sense of profound relief. One less reminder of the old, weak, pathetic vain Emma, one more step towards the new.

[...]

"You have," Emma replied, snapping back to reality. How many have you 'stopped'?

"It's like putting a wolf among sheep and expecting it to bleat!"

"It's only three years. Better than prison."

"Three years and four months."

"Better than prison," Emma repeated herself.

"It is prison, fuck it!"

"It's like you said. Just… just fake it until you make it the truth, put away the lethal ammunition for a few years."

Shadow Stalker wheeled on her, stabbed a finger in her direction, "Fuck that."

Emma stared at her best friend, saw the look in Sophia's eyes, the anger, the hardness.

For a moment, she regretted the choice she'd made.

[...]


Taylor had become the archetypical victim, Emma mused, in one sober moment, as she parted ways with the other two girls, and I've found myself becoming the type of person who could genuinely laugh at something like this.

She dismissed the thought, shifting mental gears, re-establishing the construction of self confidence she'd built. It was a little easier every time she did it.

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Emma was pretty much fighting her guilty conscience to the death here.

 

[Ack]

You actually believe this. There is no actual rebuttal needed. I just have to say "This is what you believe".

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Disprove it.

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

Honestly I feel more arguing with you due to your tone more than anything else.

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so instead of having an actual debate... you're just going to be a youTube commenter. lovely

 

[Cyclone]

You actually believe this. There is no actual rebuttal needed. I just have to say "This is what you believe".

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So? That he believes this is not what's under debate. What's under debate is whether canon provides any reason whatsoever to not believe it, so yeah, a rebuttal is kind of needed. Because without one, it's equivalent to saying "You actually believe in gravity. No actual rebuttal needed. I just have to say 'This is what you believe.'" While technically true, such a statement is meaningless.

 

[Dr. Mercurious]

Emma was pretty much fighting her guilty conscience to the death here.

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And winning. Let's not forget this.

Having a traumatic experience is not an excuse to betray your best friend, humiliate them in every way possible and them collaborate on putting them in the hospital. Period. Full Stop.

 

[Prince Charon]

Disprove it.

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He can't, because you're stating canon facts.

I mean, I firmly believe that far too many people confuse 'their interpretations of canon' with 'facts from canon,' but it looks to me like Doggy Soup is the one doing that.

 

[DoggySoup]

Disprove it.

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Pointing out that you believe what you said and laughing is a perfectly valid response to something ridiculous enough, like anything to do with Lizardmen and claims that the Sky is made of pudding.

But if you insist...

The fact that you think Shadow Stalker would just stay there on the car with a stupid look on her face as Emma gets dragged out of town without doing anything is comical. Hell, even your previous statements and the most commonly used reason for her doing heroism refutes it.

No, she went for beating people up in a way that the law approved of, thus validating her own worldview and allowing her to beat more people up.

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I mean, come on!? Do you really think she'd let that happen? Do you really, really think that? Really?

(Just noting the second link includes "or making a villain significantly more evil than in canon" as part of it's definition)

It's more likely she'd start beating on them halfway through the assault or as soon as they tried to leave. After all, you said that she was only a hero to "beat people up in a way that the law approved of", so why you'd also think that she'd just watch the whole thing go down and do nothing is beyond me.

And winning. Let's not forget this.

Having a traumatic experience is not an excuse to betray your best friend, humiliate them in every way possible and them collaborate on putting them in the hospital. Period. Full Stop.

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This. The difference between the Trio is simply that Madison is a stupid idiot doing horrible things because her friends are doing them, Sophia doesn't think she's doing anything wrong and has brain worms and Emma knows what she's doing is wrong but continues to do it anyway.

Which makes it all the more interesting that half of Emma's appearances outside of oneshots/revengefics are redemption arcs, since her canon character arc is a greek tragedy via her refusal to seek redemption.

 

[Cyclone]

The fact that you think Shadow Stalker would just stay there on the car with a stupid look on her face as Emma gets dragged out of town without doing anything is comical. Hell, even your previous statements and the most commonly used reason for her doing heroism refutes it.

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Let's look at what he actually said, hmm?

Point of fact: until Emma fought back, Sophia was watching. Waiting for her to fight back.

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Do you disagree with this?

Point of fact: the ABB were actually robbing the Barneses. Sophia wasn't stopping them. She was watching Emma.

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Do you disagree with this?

Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

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Now, this part is you seem to talking about. Except the part you seem to be arguing with is where he says we don't know what she would have done if Emma had not fought back and they had decided to take her to the farm.

Now, since he said canon does not say what she would have done in that circumstance, you must, therefore, be arguing that canon does, in fact, actually tell us without a doubt what she would have done in that circumstance; otherwise, you're not actually disagreeing with his statement that we don't know. Note that "most probably" is not actually an argument against "we don't know"; someone who plays the lottery can easily say "I will most probably not win the lottery" and "I don't know if I'll win the lottery" and have both statements be absolutely true without contradiction. So, care to cite the part of canon that tells us she most definitely would have stepped in under those or similar circumstances?

 

[Beyogi]

This discussion made me realise what bugged me most about this story. It's not so much a Sophia redemption story as a story where Taylor trains Sophia like a dog, using her infatuation.

I'm getting the impression this Sophia isn't actually less sociopath than the canon one, just better trained.

I kinda expected a story where Taylor befriends Sophia, pulls her out of her stupid sociopathic philosphy and Sophia becomes an actual hero. Instead this.

 

[DoggySoup]

Let's look at what he actually said, hmm?


Now, since he said canon does not say what she would have done in that circumstance,

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Actually, he said:

Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

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You got that, right? Let me repeat it with blue marking and bolding for the relevant bits.

Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

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Okay, so I pointed out some bits, so what?

Well today Cyclone, I'm going to teach you English! Specifically, Rhetoric! - there's no plain Violet.

The statements before an argument guide conclusions for the next, and vice versa. A more obvious form is somebody answering their own questions in a monologue. (Hypophora)

Here's our first example:

Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

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Ack made a statement of uncertainty (Red), and then followed up with a statement of certainty (Bold and italised). This is contrasting, but also contrasting in regards to surety. It's not a rhetorical question, but the result is the same. It answers itself.

Point of fact: the ABB spoke about taking her to a 'farm' (which is pretty well what you imagine it to be). The only reason they didn't decide to do just that is that she was white and affluent. Sophia may have stepped in; she may not. She certainly didn't step in when they were threatening her with mutilation.

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

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This is a larger example, but look at how after Ack's third "Point of Fact" (Rule of three) he starts talking about Behaviour, especially when you add together the last contrast. It's an explanation to his answer.

If they don't ... well, they deserve it.

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Stressing for emphasis, to make you linger on this. He's not stating explicitly, but implicitly... well, I think it speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Her explanation of her own behaviour, as well as her exhibited behaviour throughout the story, all hangs together; she believes in the strong versus the weak. The strong dominate the weak. If a victim fights back, then they're strong and she'll help them. If they don't ... well, they deserve it. Just like Taylor does. She goes out of her way to make sure that Taylor is pushed down.

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There's also emphasis of Strong and Weak, but that's something that makes itself due to the character, really. I'd like to note it however, since it does use repetition, even though not deliberately. Note the "all hangs together" and the stressing on "goes out her way" as well.


Ack may not have literally word for word said the phrase "Sophia would not have helped Emma at all if she did not fight back", but his wordplay and use of implicity say precisely that.

Edit: Formatting just vanished, dammit.

 

[Ack]

Not sure where you're going with all this. Everything I posted is backed up by canon. And there's more; quotes by Sophia, as well as her own thought processes, which back up all of my conclusions.

Or are you arguing against my conclusions because I put forth a compelling argument? Would you like to see the evidence now?

 

[Ack]

Let's not also forget the fact that the very act of choosing to torment one particuar person, more or less nonstop, for eighteen months, bespeaks a certain level of psychotic single-mindedness. Given that Emma thought she was toughening Taylor up, while Sophia never had any intention of stopping, it's reasonably easy to see who was the driving force behind it.

 

[DoggySoup]

Not sure where you're going with all this. Everything I posted is backed up by canon.

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And what I say about her intervening was also backed up by canon. We have exactly no accounts of her letting a single kidnapping, rape, assault, murder or robbery continue from start to the perps satisfaction without her interference. Not a single line states or implies she has walked away from a crime in progress, and in interlude 19, Sophia makes a point about how she sees herself better than most other heroes because she thinks she gets things done:

Shadow Stalker, for her part, stood and strode out of the room. Emma hurried to follow. By the time she reached the staircase, Shadow Stalker was halfway to the roof.

"You're angry."

"Of course I'm angry. Stipulations, rules and regulations. I've had my powers for two and a half years and I've stopped more bad guys than half the capes in that room!"

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Something that I doubt she would say in earnest if a part of her modus operandi was to abandon or let a crime happen in full because of her criteria

Actually, before Cyclone goes on about proof, can you state for the record what you believe Sophia would or would not have done in the Alley in a clear and precise manner?

Given that Emma thought she was toughening Taylor up,

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Oh, just going to nip that bit of fanon in the bud.

Emma did it to alienate Taylor, who she treated as a physical representation between the old, "weak" Emma. People keep attaching to Emma wanting Taylor to fight in the flute scene, but they don't really look at all the other bits with Taylor.

To just explain, to talk to Taylor…

Taylor would give her sympathy, would listen to everything she had to say, give an unbiased ear to every thought, every wondering and anxiety. Emma almost couldn't bear the idea.

But there would be friendship too. Support. It would be so easy to reach out and take it.

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Here's Emma looking at Taylor and weighing her old and new, but in a different way. She almost chose to confide in Taylor right up until Taylor mentions her haircut, the only damage the ABB did, but still a violation. At this point, Taylor now becomes a symbol of the past, of weakness.

A mixture of emotions that briefly stripped Taylor bare, revealed everything in a series of changing facial expressions.

She didn't enjoy it. Didn't revel in it. But it was… reassuring? The world made sense. Predators and prey. Attackers and victims. It was like a drug, only she'd never experienced the high, the pure joy of it. There was only the withdrawal, the need for a hit just to get centered again.

Fight back, get angry, hit me.

Challenge me.

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This is the bit before "Fight back". Emma isn't toughening Taylor up or trying to improve her. She wants to be wrong, but she isn't trying. At this point, she's a self admitted addict to bringing Taylor down to improve her own self esteem. Taylor is a sacrifice of the old.

Taylor's words nettled her. To back down now, it would be a step towards the old Emma, the victim.

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Taylor had become the archetypical victim, Emma mused, in one sober moment, as she parted ways with the other two girls, and I've found myself becoming the type of person who could genuinely laugh at something like this.

She dismissed the thought, shifting mental gears, re-establishing the construction of self confidence she'd built. It was a little easier every time she did it.

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It doesn't exactly fit, but Taylor and "the old Emma" were part of the same package. She was abandoning the old aspects of herself, and with that she cast away Taylor.

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

I just discovered there's an ignore function that prevents me from seeing the YouTube comments version of everything!

You know, not seeibg the kind of commenter that speaks hyperbole instead of English and argues incessantly about banal bs, moves goalposts when (s)he starts losing and having no idea what manners are. It's wonderful, I endorse it and so does the nightvale city council

 

[Megaolix]

I just discovered there's an ignore function that prevents me from seeing the YouTube comments version of everything!

You know, not seeibg the kind of commenter that speaks hyperbole instead of English and argues incessantly about banal bs, moves goalposts when (s)he starts losing and having no idea what manners are. It's wonderful, I endorse it and so does the nightvale city council

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Please do not use the feature to be an ass to those you'll ignore.

Or else.

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

Please do not use the feature to be an ass to those you'll ignore.

Or else.

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Yeah, that was in poor taste, I apologize.

Still, if it ends a stupid 1v3 'debate'...worth it.

 

[Ack]

And what I say about her intervening was also backed up by canon. We have exactly no accounts of her letting a single kidnapping, rape, assault, murder or robbery continue from start to the perps satisfaction without her interference. Not a single line states or implies she has walked away from a crime in progress, and in interlude 19, Sophia makes a point about how she sees herself better than most other heroes because she thinks she gets things done:

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My headcanon is that she lets crimes start, and once the perpetrators have done something worth punishing them for, she then jumps in. But the question is, how far is far enough?

Something that I doubt she would say in earnest if a part of her modus operandi was to abandon or let a crime happen in full because of her criteria

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I never said 'abandon'. But if the person is a victim, as she sees them (and as she sees Taylor), then she has zero empathy or feeling for them. So yeah, she might actually let it happen.

Actually, before Cyclone goes on about proof, can you state for the record what you believe Sophia would or would not have done in the Alley in a clear and precise manner?

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As above. I'd say that if Emma hadn't fought back, they would have mutilated at least a part of her face before Sophia stepped in. If she continued not to fight back, she would have let them finish, then jumped in.
Note that she would then have problems if she jumped in after they started hurting Emma and Sophia saved her. If Emma told her father that Sophia was watching from before the cutting started, they could make trouble for her. So she might even allow them to go as far as murder, then jump in. After all, she said 'stop bad guys', not 'save people'.

Oh, just going to nip that bit of fanon in the bud.

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Not so much fanon.
This is the conversation between Emma and Taylor at Arcadia.

"God, if you just would have pretended to grow a spine a little sooner, everything would have been fine."
"Somehow I doubt that."
"People who stand up for themselves get respect. If you would've tried this a little sooner, laughed more at the pranks and jokes, stood a little straighter instead of cringing like a whipped dog, it would have worked. We would've been friends again. You'd have been part of the group, and things would have been peachy. But you put it off too long, you made yourself into a victim. It wasn't us."
I could feel a few ideas fall into alignment.
"You're talking about Sophia. You mean she would have let me into the group."

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Reading between the lines, it's not hard to see that Emma wanted Taylor to be tougher. This is backed up by the "Fight back" line.

 

[tilkau]

This discussion made me realise what bugged me most about this story. It's not so much a Sophia redemption story as a story where Taylor trains Sophia like a dog, using her infatuation.

I'm getting the impression this Sophia isn't actually less sociopath than the canon one, just better trained.

I kinda expected a story where Taylor befriends Sophia, pulls her out of her stupid sociopathic philosphy and Sophia becomes an actual hero. Instead this.

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Well.. how much do you want to be covered, in that amount of time? IMO it would definitely be possible to do what you're looking for, in that amount of time.. If you're Jack Slash, that is.

If you're not.. I would expect you'd be looking at several years minimum. People don't relinquish their defense mechanisms easily.

 

[DoggySoup]

My headcanon is that she lets crimes start, and once the perpetrators have done something worth punishing them for, she then jumps in. But the question is, how far is far enough?

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That's pretty much canon. Not a single person we see that she's went for in her patrols has been standing around.

I never said 'abandon'. But if the person is a victim, as she sees them (and as she sees Taylor), then she has zero empathy or feeling for them. So yeah, she might actually let it happen.

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I seriously doubt that.

As above. I'd say that if Emma hadn't fought back, they would have mutilated at least a part of her face before Sophia stepped in. If she continued not to fight back, she would have let them finish, then jumped in.
Note that she would then have problems if she jumped in after they started hurting Emma and Sophia saved her. If Emma told her father that Sophia was watching from before the cutting started, they could make trouble for her. So she might even allow them to go as far as murder, then jump in. After all, she said 'stop bad guys', not 'save people'.

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As above, I seriously doubt SS would let them finish, especially when there's Alan banging on the car door and Emma catching her face because she's right on top of Alan's car. If she just let it happen in full, there goes her heroism career. I mean, if she was on some roof or further away I'd say it would have been more likely, but with her insistance she's better than the PRT and hw close she was at that time, I disagree thoroughly.

Not so much fanon.
This is the conversation between Emma and Taylor at Arcadia.

Reading between the lines, it's not hard to see that Emma wanted Taylor to be tougher. This is backed up by the "Fight back" line.

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It is a valid interpretation, but it rings exceedingly hollow when you look at her internal monologue compared to her reactions. She didn't go "Toughen up" in the juice prank, she went "I need a better reaction from her, I need to do something bigger".

 

[Ack]

That's pretty much canon. Not a single person we see that she's went for in her patrols has been standing around.



I seriously doubt that.



As above, I seriously doubt SS would let them finish, especially when there's Alan banging on the car door and Emma catching her face because she's right on top of Alan's car. If she just let it happen in full, there goes her heroism career. I mean, if she was on some roof or further away I'd say it would have been more likely, but with her insistance she's better than the PRT and hw close she was at that time, I disagree thoroughly.

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Well, here's the thing.

She told Emma that she wanted to see who she was. Whether she was a survivor or a victim. Emma fought back, making her a survivor in Sophia's eyes, and thus Sophia jumped in to pummel the thugs for the crime of attacking a fellow survivor, and to incidentally save Emma.

The question you have to ask yourself here is this. If Sophia is waiting to see what sort of person you are, and you don't fight back, at what point does she stop waiting? Because she already waited while Emma's jacket was taken, a piece of her hair was cut off and shoved in her mouth and Yan was playing the knife over her face.

How long would Sophia let something like this go on before intervening?

The answer, I feel, hinges on Sophia's motivations. She's not there to save victims. She's there to beat up bad guys.

In fact, if we take Taylor as her idea of a classic victim then the fact Sophia is willing to go very far indeed to harm her (eighteen months of bullying, plus the locker, plus setting Taylor up to be potentially gang-raped) says that she has zero regard for the well-being of victims.

(Also, the fact that she's a Ward and yet she spends her school hours tormenting Taylor - and doesn't stop when she becomes a Ward - practically screams 'psycho bitch' right there.)

In fact, letting the bad guys do their thing to the victim and then hitting them when their guard is down would be the smartest thing to do, tactics-wise.

And if she lets them carve on Emma for a bit, then jumps in and beats them up, followed by Alan and Emma accusing her of waiting to save Emma ... well, they're victims. They aren't survivors. They're sheep. At best, she'll ignore them. At worst ... she'll remove the problem. After all, she doesn't want this getting back to the PRT. (Note that she's perfectly willing to go straight to murder, canonically, as a way to solve her problems). "Ah yeah, I got there too late. But I got the guys who did it."

So how long? Quite a long way, I personally feel.

It is a valid interpretation, but it rings exceedingly hollow when you look at her internal monologue compared to her reactions. She didn't go "Toughen up" in the juice prank, she went "I need a better reaction from her, I need to do something bigger".

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If she reacted more, that would prove she was toughening up

The trouble was, Emma was waiting for Sophia's say-so on whether Taylor had toughened up enough to be part of the group. Sophia was determined to keep Taylor down. So she would never have given Emma the go-ahead that Taylor was good to go. So Emma kept on escalating, waiting for Taylor to come back hard enough that Sophia approved. However Sophia was never going to approve.

It's quite likely that around about the beginning of canon, Emma stopped waiting for Taylor to toughen up and just kept doing it because it was fun. But prior to that, yeah, Emma was waiting on approval that Sophia would never give.

 

[DoggySoup]

The question you have to ask yourself here is this. If Sophia is waiting to see what sort of person you are, and you don't fight back, at what point does she stop waiting? Because she already waited while Emma's jacket was taken, a piece of her hair was cut off and shoved in her mouth and Yan was playing the knife over her face.

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We don't know how long she's there before she's seen. For all we know she just made it by the time Emma saw her.

In fact, if we take Taylor as her idea of a classic victim then the fact Sophia is willing to go very far indeed to harm her (eighteen months of bullying, plus the locker, plus setting Taylor up to be potentially gang-raped) says that she has zero regard for the well-being of victims.

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She disliked Taylor especially.

She didn't care what category people fell into, so long as they didn't get in her way, like Grue had a habit of doing. Worse yet were those who seemed intent on irritating her by being lame and depressing, like Taylor or like Vista had been this past week.

They weren't all bad. The victim personality did have a habit of pissing her off, but she could let them be so long as the person or people in question stayed out of sight and out of mind, accepting their place without fight or fanfare.

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Though the idea of Emma seeking approval Sophia wasn't going to give is something I kinda like, headcanon wise.