Tandem the Spoony's Next Adventure [F/SN x CM(D&D)]

[Vindictus]

Why so many dice?

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Why so many dice?

Click to shrink...

Because you're using a Fifth Circle spell to dispel a Noble Phantasm; you're basically using up all your 5th level spell slots for the day on this. Granted, this is enough to basically ensure it's gone forever; if you want to save a spell or two you can, but it'll only deal with the majority of the Bounded Field. However, you need to at least use Greater Dispel Magic 3 times to get decent results.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Yeah, leaving a massive magic field...thing untouched is just screaming, "Oh yes, please, harder! Fuck me harder, you dirty bitch!". So because you aren't a total fucktard, you were going to deal with this now; before it can bite you in the ass. You had Greater Dispel Magic on hand, it shouldn't be too hard; just go and target the whole field and presto! No more looming trap of doom over you head.

You prepare to cast the spell, focus on the field, speak the incantation and let it rip! The spell goes forth and rips and tears at the field and whatever is keeping it anchored at the school. Finally you spell runs it's course and...the field's still there. Oh it took a nasty hit by the looks of it; you think. You're not exactly an expert on this sorta thing. But hey, if at first you don't succeed...

So you do it again. And again. And again. And again. You used up all of your Fifth Circle spells for the day, but the field is finally gone. Holy shit was that an ordeal; most spells are nowhere near as resilient as that. Which of course raises the question; is it really gone? Experience and paranoia at the forefront; you decide to go and scan the entire school for any signs of the spell over the premises still remaining. You leave no nook or cranny unturned; sure it takes up most of the school day, but you're now certain that the spell is absolutely gone. Without a doubt, you have removed it's presence for good.

Now with that out of the way, you head back to wherever Shirou is. You find him just wrapping up in his last class; and holy shit does that teacher look like he does not give a fuck. Dude, it's like he's dead inside; is this what teaching does to people?! Yeah, note to self: never become a teacher, unless you want to lose your soul. Anyways, you use a simple cantrip to message Shirou and tell him, "Hey, there was a magic field or something on the school; I took care of it, no worries."

Hearing this makes the kid tense up at first, but he loosens up when he hears you got rid of whatever it was that was on the school. Given the nature of the war it probably wasn't something that was handing out candy and kittens, so you get what made Shirou tense up so much. Fortunately, a hero such as yourself is always prepared to deal with whatever comes his way; be it magic spells or brute force, you can take it on. Just...as long as it's not a raging demigod out for blood who can throw fucking planets at you if he could. Yeah, that...kinda a though one...

Anyways, the school day ends and both you and Shirou are about to leave when someone call out, "Hey, Emiya! I need to talk to you for a sec," Let's see, judging by his looks, his gait, and his tone; he's probably an arrogant asshole. Out of habit and instinct you cast Detect Magic on him and get a ping akin to the connection between you and Shirou. So, he's another Master, eh? Might as well figure out who he is.

You whisper to Shirou, "You know this guy?"

"Yeah, Shinji's my friend; why?" Oh, good; friend means he's probably here to ally with Shirou. Given how you were already hoping to get an ally, this was very fortunate; you're now getting one handed to you on a silver platter.

When Shinji catches to the both of you, he says, "Thanks for waiting up for me, Emiya. I got some things to discuss with you. Private things; things about a certain...War, if you know what I'm saying." Man, it was kinda funny to try to see this dweeb trying to play things smooth. Still, the two of you were alone; so since the jig is up...

"Hello there, I am Tandem the Spoony! I presume that, being friends with my Master; you are seeking to ally with him. Is that correct?" Ah, the looks of surprise never get old; introductions always need a little...panache to them.

That arrogant little puck stutters out, "R-right; um, we should discuss this in a safer place. C'mon Emiya, let's head over to my place. We can iron out our alliance there."

Shirou looks at you, and you reply with a shrug. If it's a trap; you're fairly confident you can get out of it, and if it's his friend chances are this is a genuine offer here. He then tells Shinji, "Alright, lead the way."

It take awhile to reach the place, but on the way there you decide to use a Detect Alignment spell on Shirou's friend. While it's not a typical Bardic or Arcane spell; you managed to finagle it out of a cleric you knew and got him and a wizard to bastardize it to something you can use. Using it on Shinji got you the result for 'Chaotic Neutral'.

Well shit, not to say that being Chaotic Neutral is bad; because you've worked with a handful of people who fell under the category and were quite friendly with them. It just makes them unpredictable, because all they care about is 'what I want to do' and all other consequences be damned. Your focus more on Shinji, letting your wisdom and intuition guide you on figuring out what kind of person he is, based on the current small talk between him and Shirou.

What you get from it is that he's not evil, but he's pretty selfish. Which could lead to him doing evil things; but he's not in it for the evil itself, just for how it benefits him. You feel confident that with you and Shirou as a leash; you can keep him in line.


You arrive at Shinji's abode; pretty swanky place, kid seems to be loaded or comes from Old Money. Once inside you notice how dark it is; all the curtains up, no lights, seriously the place is covered in shadows. Is there even a reason for this?

"Hey kid, what's up with the lights? This can't be good for they eyes man."

Shinji's eye twitches at being called 'kid', but he replies, "Oh, that; well...grandfather doesn't like sunlight, so we keep things dark for his sake." Alright, makes sense; you know how annoying and bitchy old folks get. Especially when they're senile.

Eventually you all arrive in the living room, and Shinji calls out, "Rider!". And out comes one sexy chick in a black mini-dress and wearing a blindfold; kinky. It's made better by the thigh-high boots and long, velvet hair. Nice~. Man you are so tapping that ass.

"Alright Emiya, now that we've see each other's Servants," oh, right; the whole alliance thing, "let's talk about what we're going to do as a team, as well as what each side is bring to the table..."

Negotiations, eh? Alright, seems simple enough.

[X] Ask what they're offering first
[X] Bring up what you can offer
-- [X] Magic lessons
-- [X] Information
-- [X] Write-in
[X] See what their goals are
-- Bring up your own goal, or rather; your lack thereof

 

[Biigoh]

[X] See what their goals are
- - [X] Bring up your own goal, or rather; your lack thereof
- - - - [X] "So, kid. I don't exactly have a wish. Being here, and out of the really boring throne is pretty much what I wanted. Shirou, who I've taken under my wing and guidance, just wants to do that hero thing and save lives. Not so such if he has a wish or stuff. But eh. What about you?"

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

You know, as Genre Savvy as Spoony is you'd think 'VAMPIRE' would be screaming in his mind as soon as 'grandfather doesn't like sunlight' has been said.

I mean, it's not CORRECT, but I'd still expect it to occur to him. Maybe Shinji telling him, 'No he's not a vampire!' and Spoony believing it because he can tell that much is true. Or Shinji says, "No, he's just sick! Seriously, it's like he's at the brink of death every month. If there was a sickest old man contest, I'd enter him and win millions!"

 

[EnderofWorlds]

You know, as Genre Savvy as Spoony is you'd think 'VAMPIRE' would be screaming in his mind as soon as 'grandfather doesn't like sunlight' has been said.

I mean, it's not CORRECT, but I'd still expect it to occur to him. Maybe Shinji telling him, 'No he's not a vampire!' and Spoony believing it because he can tell that much is true. Or Shinji says, "No, he's just sick! Seriously, it's like he's at the brink of death every month. If there was a sickest old man contest, I'd enter him and win millions!"

Click to shrink...

It's there, but since Shinji's not a vampire nor is enthralled; it's not something he's focusing on. Now, if he actually saw Zouken; then it'd be a different story.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

It's there, but since Shinji's not a vampire nor is enthralled; it's not something he's focusing on. Now, if he actually saw Zouken; then it'd be a different story.

Click to shrink...

Or maybe a CLEVER vampire is keeping things in the family with a 'face' for public relations. >

 

[Fellgar]

... Yeah we have to do a bit of a boast about our history. May hap's despoiler of Athena? ^_^

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

[X] "What do we bring to the table? My good lad, I am nothing less than The Greatest Swordsman In The World! Since arriving on this world yesterday I have caused the death of one Servant, took the eyeball of another, discerned the identity of his Master, fought Herakles in single combat, and had the most bitchin' rock-off the ages have seen yet! Oh yeah, and I took down some jackass' magic field. Who puts one of those in a school anyways?"
[X] "Also, Rider, charmed to meet you, I am Tandem the Spoony, call me Tandem, I will not answer to Saber, how do you do? Might I ask your name?"
-[X] "What's the problem, we're both Chaotic Good! I can see it on your Servant sheet! C'mon, you can trust me, we're all pals here right?"
[X] "So, Rider, I'm guessing you were summoned before me? What have you two done so far this war?"




Why yes, it is giving a shitload of information away. But Tandem doesn't bother to hide his name and I don't see him hiding his deeds. Also, I think Rider's alignment is visible pretty much from the start via Master vision or....something. Can Servants do it too? Can't remember, but you'd think Tandem would at least be aware Shirou can see it.

Also, because I wanna see how Shinji reacts to this. I HIGHLY doubt he'll lay an equal amount on the table, but the barrage of unexpected free info oughta take him off guard and then Tandem will start putting pieces together.

 

[Vindictus]

[X] The Choirboy's Song

 

[MrGazzer]

[X] "What do we bring to the table? My good lad, I am nothing less than The Greatest Swordsman In The World! Since arriving on this world yesterday I have caused the death of one Servant, took the eyeball of another, discerned the identity of his Master, fought Herakles in single combat, and had the most bitchin' rock-off the ages have seen yet! Oh yeah, and I took down some jackass' magic field. Who puts one of those in a school anyways?"
[X] "Also, Rider, charmed to meet you, I am Tandem the Spoony, call me Tandem, I will not answer to Saber, how do you do? Might I ask your name?"
-[X] "What's the problem, we're both Chaotic Good! I can see it on your Servant sheet! C'mon, you can trust me, we're all pals here right?"
[X] "So, Rider, I'm guessing you were summoned before me? What have you two done so far this war?"

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Just know that for my write-in? I am NOT going for shrewd, savvy player. At least not the conventional kind.

If I'm being perfectly honest, this is grabbing the Idiot Ball. Just a little. I mean, impressing the HELL outta these guys through force of personality is perfectly valid, it just gives a lot of information away. And SOMEONE in the war set the field, and a strong one. Sure, Caster is the most likely suspect, but Tandem is walking proof that non-Caster classes can have magic. And NPs, anything goes.

So laying it all out on the table on someone's home turf? Not the safest move ever.

Of course, if you're confident in your ability to ferret out dishonesty or discomfort in the people you're talking to, or prise info out of them while they're dazed with shock, then it can still work for you! If they're not willing to reciprocate such generous enthusiasm, then that's a wee bit suspicious and something to take note of. Plus, it's a new day, so new charge on Teleport Boots worst comes to worst.

And you're Tandem.

 

[Vindictus]

If worst comes to worst, we've got 'Victory from the Jaws of Defeat' on hand.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

If we need to use Victory From The Jaws of Defeat, we have done something horribly, horribly wrong. Or Rider is horrifically more powerful this time around.

I mean, I was wondering if the magic field was from Rider at all. In a war between Tandem, CoC, and Uber-Herk, Medusa just don't measure up all the way. Especially under Shinji with no Blood Fort as a booster.

Personally, if this is going by canon, I'd wager that if Tandem decides he wants Rider and Shinji dead, they're dead. End of story. He's still got two EX stats I believe and Kojiro skills. The only way Rider could even feasibly hurt Tandem and Shirou is by going Mystic Eyes, but Shinji is here too. And she needs to at least pay lip service to that.

All in all, if Tandem doesn't realize he's being screwed, the two are probably going to try sending Tandem and Shirou on a suicide mission. Heh. But we've probably got enough cred to force them into an unfavorable position to keep up the bluff.

 

[Cherry Lover]

Shinji, Chaotic Neutral, really? The guy rapes his sister on a nightly basis and is willing to feed the entire school to his servant for power....

Anyway, I vote for:

[X] "What do we bring to the table? My good lad, I am nothing less than The Greatest Swordsman In The World! Since arriving on this world yesterday I have caused the death of one Servant, took the eyeball of another, discerned the identity of his Master, fought Herakles in single combat, and had the most bitchin' rock-off the ages have seen yet! Oh yeah, and I took down some jackass' magic field. Who puts one of those in a school anyways?"
[X] "Also, Rider, charmed to meet you, I am Tandem the Spoony, call me Tandem, I will not answer to Saber, how do you do? Might I ask your name?"
-[X] "What's the problem, we're both Chaotic Good! I can see it on your Servant sheet! C'mon, you can trust me, we're all pals here right?"
[X] "So, Rider, I'm guessing you were summoned before me? What have you two done so far this war?"

If we need to use Victory From The Jaws of Defeat, we have done something horribly, horribly wrong. Or Rider is horrifically more powerful this time around.

I mean, I was wondering if the magic field was from Rider at all. In a war between Tandem, CoC, and Uber-Herk, Medusa just don't measure up all the way. Especially under Shinji with no Blood Fort as a booster.

Personally, if this is going by canon, I'd wager that if Tandem decides he wants Rider and Shinji dead, they're dead. End of story. He's still got two EX stats I believe and Kojiro skills. The only way Rider could even feasibly hurt Tandem and Shirou is by going Mystic Eyes, but Shinji is here too. And she needs to at least pay lip service to that.

All in all, if Tandem doesn't realize he's being screwed, the two are probably going to try sending Tandem and Shirou on a suicide mission. Heh. But we've probably got enough cred to force them into an unfavorable position to keep up the bluff.

Click to shrink...

Why would we want to kill Rider? Get rid of Shinji, return her to her normal master and get an actually reliable ally....

 

[Alexander]

[X] "What do we bring to the table? My good lad, I am nothing less than The Greatest Swordsman In The World! Since arriving on this world yesterday I have caused the death of one Servant, took the eyeball of another, discerned the identity of his Master, fought Herakles in single combat, and had the most bitchin' rock-off the ages have seen yet! Oh yeah, and I took down some jackass' magic field. Who puts one of those in a school anyways?"
[X] "Also, Rider, charmed to meet you, I am Tandem the Spoony, call me Tandem, I will not answer to Saber, how do you do? Might I ask your name?"
-[X] "What's the problem, we're both Chaotic Good! I can see it on your Servant sheet! C'mon, you can trust me, we're all pals here right?"
[X] "So, Rider, I'm guessing you were summoned before me? What have you two done so far this war?"

Our Charisma works on Shinji right? If so we have the idiot in our palm: compared to Kotomine...

 

[Pipeman]

Shinji, Chaotic Neutral, really? The guy rapes his sister on a nightly basis and is willing to feed the entire school to his servant for power....

Click to shrink...

Eh.
The guy is very selfish, kind of unstable and probably deserves to die, but he's not that evil in DnD terms.

Why would we want to kill Rider? Get rid of Shinji, return her to her normal master and get an actually reliable ally....

Click to shrink...

Because both Rider and Sakura are highly unstable, no matter how good of a person they may be, and any association with Sakura herself bears the risk of going down the HF route, which is one clusterfuck I do not want to deal with on top of a vengeful Lancer and super angry Berserker.

Look at it from this way.
fanatic!Kotomine is probably already preparing to off Zouken and we are going to be either spending time with Shinji and undermining his inferiority complex, which would rid him of his motive to make Sakura's life hell, or just going to kill him once he betrays us.
In either case Sakura's life gets dramatically better without us having to risk the HF route or putting Sakura in the direct line of fire.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Shinji, Chaotic Neutral, really? The guy rapes his sister on a nightly basis and is willing to feed the entire school to his servant for power....

Click to shrink...

Against my better judgement; I will address this. The line between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil is a rather blurry one, moreso than between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral.

The defining factor is thus: is he doing the evil deed more for the sake of doing the deed, or for his own self-gratification and desires? Is he just trying to set the world on fire just to watch it burn, or is he doing it solely for self-gain. Yes, he was willing to kill off the school; but it was an act of necessity for him and his goals. Had he expressed glee and the desire to trigger the Bloodfort for reasons other than 'Rider needs prana', then he would swing to Chaotic Evil. He rapes his sister, but more for the sake for feeling good rather than to hurt Sakura. Yes, he does hurt Sakura; but that's not his goal: his goal is to feel better about himself and superior to his sister.

These are all self-serving actions that are focused more on self-gratification rather than inflicting harm and spreading evil. This is more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Evil.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Plus, Gilgamesh gets away with being Chaotic Good despite the whole 'I will rape Saber' thing. Which works. Kinda. In the sense that Gilgamesh views whatever the fuck he wants to do as being Good. S'best reason I can come up with, in addition to Gilgamesh being a nicer guy when he's with his Bro.

Shinji being Chaotic Neutral doesn't make me bat an eye in comparison.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

....Hang on. Question. Shirou know Arturia's dead yet? We can be preeeeeetty sure we caused her death because our luck and NP made Lancer's sure-kill attack hit Arturia instead of us. If I understand it correctly. Did we ever let Shirou know what was up with that? Be kinda awkward if he asks 'When did this happen, who, and how?'

Could still be played for laughs. A running joke in which Tandem continually deflects suspicion or changes the topic, possibly while still convincing everyone this happened.

Arturia DID try to kill us, we're stupid Charismatic, so I don't think Shirou's gonna hold it against us that Arturia died instead of us. But it'd be good to know, well, what he knows.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

....Hang on. Question. Shirou know Arturia's dead yet? We can be preeeeeetty sure we caused her death because our luck and NP made Lancer's sure-kill attack hit Arturia instead of us. If I understand it correctly. Did we ever let Shirou know what was up with that? Be kinda awkward if he asks 'When did this happen, who, and how?'

Could still be played for laughs. A running joke in which Tandem continually deflects suspicion or changes the topic, possibly while still convincing everyone this happened.

Arturia DID try to kill us, we're stupid Charismatic, so I don't think Shirou's gonna hold it against us that Arturia died instead of us. But it'd be good to know, well, what he knows.

Click to shrink...

He saw her get stabbed in the heart and then the both you went and GTFO. He knows she's dead, but with everything going on and with you taking the reigns in the Master/Servant relationship; he hasn't really noticed or really cares beyond 'she was pretty, and she protected me, but she was a Servant and bit the dust'. He feels kinda bad, but he's more focused on making sure that no one else is harmed during the war.

 

[Pipeman]

....Hang on. Question. Shirou know Arturia's dead yet? We can be preeeeeetty sure we caused her death because our luck and NP made Lancer's sure-kill attack hit Arturia instead of us. If I understand it correctly. Did we ever let Shirou know what was up with that? Be kinda awkward if he asks 'When did this happen, who, and how?'

Could still be played for laughs. A running joke in which Tandem continually deflects suspicion or changes the topic, possibly while still convincing everyone this happened.

Arturia DID try to kill us, we're stupid Charismatic, so I don't think Shirou's gonna hold it against us that Arturia died instead of us. But it'd be good to know, well, what he knows.

Click to shrink...

From Shirous perspective there were three people involved in that fight, two of which claimed to be his Servant and the third had already killed him once.
Then they started fighting, the guy that already killed him before killed the girl before the surviving one who claimed to be his Servant drove him off.
Sure, a normal person might want to find out what actually happened there, but Shirou knows Tandem is a good guy that fought against the eveil guy and there are people to save, so the detaills don't really matter.

Ninja GMs.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

He saw her get stabbed in the heart and then the both you went and GTFO. He knows she's dead, but with everything going on and with you taking the reigns in the Master/Servant relationship; he hasn't really noticed or really cares beyond 'she was pretty, and she protected me, but she was a Servant and bit the dust'. He feels kinda bad, but he's more focused on making sure that no one else is harmed during the war.

Click to shrink...

Good to know. Still, hmm. Well, hope he understands that us bragging is pretty much especially a strong bargaining position by showing off how awesome we are.

Well, and some pride. We dodged the spear of sure-hit completely, even canon Saber still took the hit, just not fatally. We deserve kudos for that.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Good to know. Still, hmm. Well, hope he understands that us bragging is pretty much especially a strong bargaining position by showing off how awesome we are.

Well, and some pride. We dodged the spear of sure-hit completely, even canon Saber still took the hit, just not fatally. We deserve kudos for that.

Click to shrink...

Just as Saber would influence his methods and ideals, so too have you been doing so with your actions.

Make of that what you will...

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Just as Saber would influence his methods and ideals, so too have you been doing so with your actions.

Make of that what you will...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, Shirou tends to take on the traits of whoever he's closest to. Like being tsundere with Rin in UBW Normal. He's already picked up Tandem's snark.

This oughta be fun.

 

[Cherry Lover]

Eh.
The guy is very selfish, kind of unstable and probably deserves to die, but he's not that evil in DnD terms.

Click to shrink...

How is mass-murder of the entire school and raping your sister just to exert power on her not evil?

Because both Rider and Sakura are highly unstable, no matter how good of a person they may be, and any association with Sakura herself bears the risk of going down the HF route, which is one clusterfuck I do not want to deal with on top of a vengeful Lancer and super angry Berserker.

Click to shrink...

Sakura is only "unstable" if we don't deal with her problems. And, regardless of what you want, some of us don't like ignoring main characters because they're a potential inconvinience....

Look at it from this way.
fanatic!Kotomine is probably already preparing to off Zouken and we are going to be either spending time with Shinji and undermining his inferiority complex, which would rid him of his motive to make Sakura's life hell, or just going to kill him once he betrays us.
In either case Sakura's life gets dramatically better without us having to risk the HF route or putting Sakura in the direct line of fire.

Click to shrink...

Even if Zouken does get bumped-off, that still doesn't leave Sakura in a great position. She's still been abused for eleven years, Shirou knows nothing of that and nor does Rin.

Against my better judgement; I will address this. The line between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil is a rather blurry one, moreso than between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral.

The defining factor is thus: is he doing the evil deed more for the sake of doing the deed, or for his own self-gratification and desires? Is he just trying to set the world on fire just to watch it burn, or is he doing it solely for self-gain. Yes, he was willing to kill off the school; but it was an act of necessity for him and his goals. Had he expressed glee and the desire to trigger the Bloodfort for reasons other than 'Rider needs prana', then he would swing to Chaotic Evil. He rapes his sister, but more for the sake for feeling good rather than to hurt Sakura. Yes, he does hurt Sakura; but that's not his goal: his goal is to feel better about himself and superior to his sister.

These are all self-serving actions that are focused more on self-gratification rather than inflicting harm and spreading evil. This is more Chaotic Neutral than Chaotic Evil.

Click to shrink...

Doing evil for the sake of self-gain is by definition Evil. Neutral Evil rather than Chaotic Evil, perhaps, but definitely Evil. Sadism is not in itself evil, hurting people is evil. Also, he is abusing Sakura for the sake of hurting her, that is abundantly clear.

Most villains are not doing evil for the sake of doing evil. Only a cartoon villain (or a fiend of some kind) does that. Real people do evil because it benefits them, but they are still evil-aligned.

Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean "selfish" (I hate the way Chaotic people are maligned as being selfish just because they don't follow arbitrary rules), it just means you do whatever you like with no regard for rules, but you do refrain from harming people without just cause, or at least don't deliberately act in a way which will harm people. Shinji does not refrain from such, and therefore is Evil.

Plus, Gilgamesh gets away with being Chaotic Good despite the whole 'I will rape Saber' thing. Which works. Kinda. In the sense that Gilgamesh views whatever the fuck he wants to do as being Good. S'best reason I can come up with, in addition to Gilgamesh being a nicer guy when he's with his Bro.

Shinji being Chaotic Neutral doesn't make me bat an eye in comparison.

Click to shrink...

Well, yeah, sure, but I don't honestly know anyone who seriously agrees with Gil's canonical alignment (or Rider's for that matter).

 

[hunter09]

[X] "What do we bring to the table? My good lad, I am nothing less than The Greatest Swordsman In The World! Since arriving on this world yesterday I have caused the death of one Servant, took the eyeball of another, discerned the identity of his Master, fought Herakles in single combat, and had the most bitchin' rock-off the ages have seen yet! Oh yeah, and I took down some jackass' magic field. Who puts one of those in a school anyways?"
[X] "Also, Rider, charmed to meet you, I am Tandem the Spoony, call me Tandem, I will not answer to Saber, how do you do? Might I ask your name?"
-[X] "What's the problem, we're both Chaotic Good! I can see it on your Servant sheet! C'mon, you can trust me, we're all pals here right?"
[X] "So, Rider, I'm guessing you were summoned before me? What have you two done so far this war?"

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Doing evil for the sake of self-gain is by definition Evil. Neutral Evil rather than Chaotic Evil, perhaps, but definitely Evil. Sadism is not in itself evil, hurting people is evil. Also, he is abusing Sakura for the sake of hurting her, that is abundantly clear.

Most villains are not doing evil for the sake of doing evil. Only a cartoon villain (or a fiend of some kind) does that. Real people do evil because it benefits them, but they are still evil-aligned.

Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean "selfish" (I hate the way Chaotic people are maligned as being selfish just because they don't follow arbitrary rules), it just means you do whatever you like with no regard for rules, but you do refrain from harming people without just cause, or at least don't deliberately act in a way which will harm people. Shinji does not refrain from such, and therefore is Evil.

Click to shrink...

Alright; let's do a little thought experiment. Three characters with the Chaotic Alignment are all in the same situation as Shinji; with Bloodfort Andromeda and Rider needing prana. They cannot provide it, and the only means of providing it is through the Bloodfort; which will kill hundreds. What does each alignment do?

My answer: They all go through with it; the Chaotic Good character understands that without Rider he cannot win the War, which means that someone evil may obtain it and use it to bring ruin to the world. It is a sacrifice that weighs heavy on his mind, but for the sake of the greater good; one might have to commit a lesser evil.

The Chaotic Evil character does it so that he may both maintain Rider, and so that he can watch the victims suffer; he seeks the Grail to grant his desires, which are fueled by his urge to watch the world burn. He lives for evil and chaos, and having hundreds die so that his goals may continue is a bonus.

The Chaotic Neutral character does it because he needs to maintain Rider, and he wants the grail. Unlike his Good counterpart, he does not regret the casualties, and unlike his Evil counterpart he does not enjoy it either. It is simply a cost he must pay to reach his 'goal', if one can call it that. This is where I feel Shinji falls into the best. He isn't like a villain who will do evil deeds to reach their goal, nor is he doing wrong deeds for a reason he believes is right. He has no greater motivation besides 'what I want'. An evil character, even Neutral Evil; will do something for a larger, overarching goal. This is what Shinji lacks; a greater goal to both justify or validate his actions besides 'because I want to'. Without one, he is merely neutral.

I refuse to budge on this; as of now Shinji Matou's alignment is Chaotic Neutral in this quest.

Edit: While I'm not going to change his alignment; I'm still willing to hear out your opinion, so at the very least it'll be heard. And so I may possibly incorporate elements of it into further characterization.

 

[useless101]

I imagine the disagreement over alignment stems from the differing definitions of evil.

"Evil is a good man doing nothing," or "to be immoral is to be evil." Both of these express an idea of what it means to be evil, and do so in an understandable way.

But that is not the definition of evil that the Nasu-verse runs on, nor is it how D&D defines it. To be identified as evil by a dungeons and dragons spell or ability, you have to be the type that seeks destruction for the sake of it, or who would cause suffering purely to enjoy the pain of others.

Doing 'bad things' to make yourself feel less wretched would qualify as evil under the first one, but not under the second. Since the alignment spell uses the second definition, it comes back as neutral.

This doesn't mean you can't say Shinji is a bastard who needs to die, it just means that this spell and system won't tell you so straight out.

Edit: I put the word evil before bastard in that last line. It undermined my point and probably added a lot of confusion.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

This doesn't mean you can't say Shinji is an evil bastard who needs to die, it just means that this spell and system won't tell you so straight out.

Click to shrink...

Alignments start to blur around the gray area of Neutral Evil and Chaotic Neutral; both of which act as self-serving bastards most of the time. So I typically look at motivation to settle the score.

The difference between the two is 'scope and vision' IMO; the Chaotic Neutral character doesn't have much of a vision or goal besides 'what I wanna do', whereas the Neutral Evil character will have a greater motivation behind them, and will do every dirty trick in the book to reach it. The Neutral Evil character has a path and plan; while the Chaotic Neutral character kinds just meanders through life. Given Shinji's motivations, I put him in the latter category instead of the former.