The 'ugly' guy that gets the hot girl

[Blundo]

I've always felt like the real reason "women like assholes" is a truism is because of the syllogistic fallacy. Women often like confident men. Assholes often have undue confidence. Therefore, women often wind up falling for assholes. But that doesn't mean women like them because they're assholes.

Also, the cynical side of me wonders how much of it comes from the fact that anyone keeping the woman you're into from dating you by selfishly dating her first is clearly an asshole.

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Yeah in my opinion it's mostly a matter of confidence+proactivity+non-doormatness being attractive (provided you hit a certain minimum level of either looks or social cachet — otherwise that confidence is often be unattractive and prone to mockery), and that being an asshole is one of the easiest ways of appearing confident, proactive, and not a doormat. Also to an extent higher-status than you might actually be, if people buy into your ego-driven "I'm better than everyone else" nonsense (though most people past the age of 23 or so will see through that part).

Very few people are "seeking out assholes", it's just that assholes will be overrepresented in the group of people with those traits — traits I think should be considered attractive. Clearest proof is probably that there are plenty of assholes who don't have those traits (for example the "nerd clique" at my high school was the biggest nest of bitter miserable backstabbers you could imagine, and I am very grateful my parents shaped me into enough of a jock to avoid that social scene despite some shared interests lol), and they're definitely not drowning in attention.

tl;dr: Pleasant dude with those desirable traits will generally do better than an asshole with them, who will generally do better than a pleasant dude without them, who in turn will do WAY better than an asshole without them.

 

[queermunist]

So I noticed y'all overlooked a really important aspect to this phenomenon, so I'll just point it out.

Fetishes exist.

There are women who want a weak little worm they can step on. There are women who want to be degraded by a nasty freak. There are women who are attracted to hyper-specific traits, like body hair or strong body scent or scars, and will overlook everything else in order to fulfill their fetish. There are women who just want to fuck their dad. There's a lot of reasons an 'ugly' guy can get the hot girl, and they revolve around the guy being 'ugly' in the first place.

 

[f0Ri5]

So I noticed y'all overlooked a really important aspect to this phenomenon, so I'll just point it out.

Fetishes exist.

There are women who want a weak little worm they can step on. There are women who want to be degraded by a nasty freak. There are women who are attracted to hyper-specific traits, like body hair or strong body scent or scars, and will overlook everything else in order to fulfill their fetish. There are women who just want to fuck their dad. There's a lot of reasons an 'ugly' guy can get the hot girl, and they revolve around the guy being 'ugly' in the first place.

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Fetishes tend to be... pretty specific. And therefore not shared among the majority of the population.

There are things that women prefer in men (more than other things). Robert Greene talks about this in his amazing book 'Art of Seduction'. It's not specifically about seduction in a sexual sense, it's a bit more meta, but he does point out that women tend to like men with feminine elements (the tiktok femboy, justin bieber, one direction kind of feminine), while men prefer women who are more masculine. The latter tends to manifest more in the way of girls who like guy things, like the tomboy/ gamer girl.

 

[Rin]

There are things that women prefer in men (more than other things). Robert Greene talks about this in his amazing book 'Art of Seduction'. It's not specifically about seduction in a sexual sense, it's a bit more meta, but he does point out that women tend to like men who are a tad more feminine (the tiktok femboy, justin bieber, one direction kind of feminine), while men prefer women who are more masculine. The latter tends to manifest more in the way of girls who like guy things, like the tomboy/ gamer girl.

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De-rec for Robert Greene.

If you want to know what women like, just browse romance novel covers (or, you know, ask a woman).

Spoiler

What performs best is a naked, muscular, masculine (but hairless) male torso with no face or anything below the waist (objectification is a two-way street bay-bee~). This has been extensively tested in a very competive industry entirely based around making women horny.

 

[f0Ri5]

De-rec for Robert Greene.

If you want to know what women like, just browse romance novel covers (or, you know, ask a woman).

Spoiler

What performs best is a naked, muscular, masculine (but hairless) male torso with no face or anything below the waist (objectification is a two-way street bay-bee~). This has been extensively tested in a very competive industry entirely based around making women horny.

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Yeah, I was more so trying to point out that the hyper masculine guy isn't necessarily the preferred type (in terms of appearance). Like you pointed out, women seem to prefer the hairless look, which can be considered somewhat feminine. If you go on tiktok (because that's where you tend to find a lot of girls online) and look at the comments of some huge dude squatting 500 lbs, you're not going to see many girls gushing over him. But do the same with your average femboy, and you'll find yourself drowning in thirst comments.

The romance novel cover is a good example—it's better to see what people like than ask them. People's words can't always be trusted, because of virtue signaling.

(Idk what de-rec means. De-recommend?)

 

[Rin]

(Idk what de-rec means. De-recommend?)

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Yes. If a man sits down and tries to tell me that he's an expert in warfare, politics, seduction and social systems, I'm naturally pretty skeptical. Especially if he's not put any of his expertise into action as far as I can tell. He's an author, not some 2nd century philosopher-king polymath. I've read a couple of his books and they didn't impress me.

Also, I wouldn't say that any of the men on those covers are feminine. The opposite, actually. They're just not hairy.

I'd definitely read more romance if it featured cute femboys though.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

Like you pointed out, women seem to prefer the hairless look, which can be considered somewhat feminine.

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I suspect they prefer the hairless look because hair would hide the muscles. The washboard abs, bulging biceps and etc in those pictures is about as close to a feminine aesthetic as Antarctica is to the North Pole.

 

[queermunist]

Also, I wouldn't say that any of the men on those covers are feminine. The opposite, actually. They're just not hairy.

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The washboard abs, bulging biceps and etc in those pictures is about as close to a feminine aesthetic as Antarctica is to the North Pole.

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I dunno, they have pretty big tits

 

[f0Ri5]

Yes. If a man sits down and tries to tell me that he's an expert in warfare, politics, seduction and social systems, I'm naturally pretty skeptical. Especially if he's not put any of his expertise into action as far as I can tell. He's an author, not some 2nd century philosopher-king polymath. I've read a couple of his books and they didn't impress me.

Also, I wouldn't say that any of the men on those covers are feminine. The opposite, actually. They're just not hairy.

I'd definitely read more romance if it featured cute femboys though.

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I don't think those guys are physically huge. They're obviously in great shape, but they aren't the Ronny Coleman extreme end of the spectrum level of musculature. My original argument was men/women preferring people who have elements of the opposite sex, not men who look entirely like women and vica versa.

Body hair is something that's more masculine than it is feminine. Women prefer less body hair in men. That's just true across the board. There are other similarly feminine things women like in men, and masculine things men like in women. The point is, women don't prefer hypermasculine men, and men likewise don't prefer hyperfeminine women. It's pretty common for guys to be grossed out by super long nails, or tons of makeup, for example.

Why Women Don't Fall for Hairy Guys Remains a Scientific Mystery

A theory that holds that women with more to fear from parasites prefer hairless guys fails to get support.

www.livescience.com

 

[Blundo]

So I noticed y'all overlooked a really important aspect to this phenomenon, so I'll just point it out.

Fetishes exist.

There are women who want a weak little worm they can step on. There are women who want to be degraded by a nasty freak. There are women who are attracted to hyper-specific traits, like body hair or strong body scent or scars, and will overlook everything else in order to fulfill their fetish. There are women who just want to fuck their dad. There's a lot of reasons an 'ugly' guy can get the hot girl, and they revolve around the guy being 'ugly' in the first place.

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Well, sure. That's true, even if they're obviously outliers.

The fictional depictions being talked about are rarely ever like that, however. It's nearly always some variety of "Yes I am in love with you now because you are 'nice' (whatever that means lmao) even if you don't have much in the way of notable qualities otherwise. Also looks don't matter at all, and I somehow don't have plenty of options who are attractive and 'nice'!" wish fulfillment. Which is fine if people don't take it too seriously or start to think it's how things are meant to work. When that happens, people end up confused and sad at best, resentful and dangerously entitled at worst.

Let me know if any mainstream piece of fiction instead had the love interest go "ahhhhhhhh you're such an ugly freak it makes me want to be defiled by you aha" or something, though. At the very least I'm sure it'd be entertaining.

Edit: to be clair that last part isn't meant to be snide, I genuinely think it'd be interesting to see that.

If a man sits down and tries to tell me that he's an expert in warfare, politics, seduction and social systems, I'm naturally pretty skeptical. Especially if he's not put any of his expertise into action as far as I can tell. He's an author, not some 2nd century philosopher-king polymath.

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In the man's defense he has said "Everyone assumes I practise all of my own laws but I don't. I think anybody who did would be a horrible ugly person to be around" but yeah I agree. (Also "Yeah I'd be a master of the universe for sure but like, I'm just too much of a good person to do it" is a dubious claim)

Really nearly all these "I have all the answers" types, gurus, self-help authors, etc. beg the question "Ok so how come you're just moderately wealthy, on your second divorce, haven't achieved much of note beyond selling books, and your kids' lives are an utter mess?" or similar. The saying "those who can't do, teach" is often inaccurate and unfair, but "those who can't do, write books explaining their totally foolproof theories of how to do" certainly seems true more often than not.

 

[f0Ri5]

Well, sure. That's true, even if they're obviously outliers.

The fictional depictions being talked about are rarely ever like that, however. It's nearly always some variety of "Yes I am in love with you now because you are 'nice' (whatever that means lmao) even if you don't have much in the way of notable qualities otherwise. Also looks don't matter at all, and I somehow don't have plenty of options who are attractive and 'nice'!" wish fulfillment. Which is fine if people don't take it too seriously or start to think it's how things are meant to work. When that happens, people end up confused and sad at best, resentful and dangerously entitled at worst.

Let me know if any mainstream piece of fiction instead had the love interest go "ahhhhhhhh you're such an ugly freak it makes me want to be defiled by you aha" or something, though. At the very least I'm sure it'd be entertaining.

Edit: to be clair that last part isn't meant to be snide, I genuinely think it'd be interesting to see that.

In the man's defense he has said "Everyone assumes I practise all of my own laws but I don't. I think anybody who did would be a horrible ugly person to be around" but yeah I agree. (Also "Yeah I'd be a master of the universe for sure but like, I'm just too much of a good person to do it" is a dubious claim)

Really nearly all these "I have all the answers" types, gurus, self-help authors, etc. beg the question "Ok so how come you're just moderately wealthy, on your second divorce, haven't achieved much of note beyond selling books, and your kids' lives are an utter mess?" or similar. The saying "those who can't do, teach" is often inaccurate and unfair, but "those who can't do, write books explaining their totally foolproof theories of how to do" certainly seems true more often than not.

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The 'niceness' = attractive thing is pretty easily dismantled by a simple thought experiment.

I'm straight as an arrow. I'm not into guys, not in the slightest. I don't see how that will ever change. No matter how nice or dependable or whatever a guy is in my eyes, I will never want to get anywhere close to his brown starfish. Because I feel zero sexual attraction for him

Sexual attraction needs to exist. If there is zero sexual attraction, no amount of dependable, nice, polite, non-douchebag or whatever qualities is going to fix that. And it is more than possible to feel zero sexual attraction for a woman as a straight man. I run into women during my day-to-day who I'd never bang. We all do. I don't see why it would be any different for the opposite sex.

 

[queermunist]

The fictional depictions being talked about are rarely ever like that, however.

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That's because they are cowards!

Also, these plots aren't written for women. They're written for a target audience of young men with low self esteem who want to see themselves represented in media and getting the girl. It's basically the same fantasy as what you see in those romance novels written for women.

 

[Lightbringer]

There is also something else you guys might be forgetting.
Sometimes a girl finds you cute...but her friends do not, so they basically keep dabbing on her until she gives up on approaching you, you were cute, it is just that her friends didn't want her to get a boy.

 

[Horus Lupercal]

Not like that woman is hideous, but let's not pretend she's supermodel level. That's not me insulting her, it's pretty easy to see the difference just by comparing her against girls of similar ethnicity.

Spoiler: Girl 1

Spoiler: Girl 2

Spoiler: Girl 3

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Instrag fitters in second much. And i find women likes this every where while sitting on the bus or even walking or even at my job.

Anyway both physically looks and personality can matter hell even social status and money matters.


So attractive person dating none attractive one is certainly not crazy thing.


And the last part really sounds very incell like what the fck only friend's with

 

[Cherico]

let me show you a way ugly men have gotten gorgious women for thousands of years.

still works to this day.