With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Chaoswind]

We don't need to speculate.

In this fic we know the Guardians changed the Martians and installed empathy and better comportment on all of the sub types, but that reds are the ones in with the effects were reduced IE reds got less empathy than the others. Then Karman decided to teach reds magic and their intrinsic advantages of their class are reinforced with the knowledge of magic.

Greens and Whites then become the underclass under the reds, but of the two colors greens are more predisposed to kiss the dirt the reds walkthrough as reds are the closest to a burning martian, thus Greens become the natural loyal servants while Whites are more like reluctant servants.

 

[rthomas2]

There it is!

Way off.

Click to shrink...

I think...I think I may finally have it.

Been rereading, and the only surname I can think of that fits Saul Talbot and the Candle clue would be...Taylor. As in Tinker Tailor Candlestick Maker.

Right?

 

[Darko]

I think...I think I may finally have it.

Been rereading, and the only surname I can think of that fits Saul Talbot and the Candle clue would be...Taylor. As in Tinker Tailor Candlestick Maker.

Right?

Click to shrink...

No, it's Tallowin.

Someone guessed that several chapters ago and Zoat confirmed it.

 

[rthomas2]

Well now, that's what I get for not following along

 

[Mr Zoat]

4th July 2012
21:45 GMT

"…that's the offer. We're happy to accept anyone interested, though we'll be giving better terms to those with the skills we most strongly desire. There's a L.E.G.I.O.N. flotilla in near-Earth space now where I can drop you off for basic training while still keeping you close enough to other minds to avoid catatonia." I pause a moment. "Any questions?"

"You want us to flee?"

Mr. B'lanx sounds unconvinced.

"I want you to come and receive professional military training in a place where you can buy weapons with your pay. If Prelate J'emm is successful, you'll be able to return to an egalitarian Mars where your company can be folded into the Manhunters. If he failed… You'll have professional military training and guns."

The Manhunters come to alert, the air around their hands trembling faintly with telekinetic force.

"You will leave-."

"No."

"No, he can stay." Mr. B'lanx tries to smile. I've seen worse. "I'm actually interested."

"And it's not like you actually want him here." I look through the walls surrounding us, unfocusing my eyes as I try to take in the desires of the population of the city. "You're looking at a violent uprising and you know it. The other city states think you're a bunch of colourist arseholes. A few years ago they would have coached it in terms like 'highly conservative', but now there's a cultural revolution underway. And when the uprising happens, no other city will send you help. The city's garrison is all you'll have, and it isn't enough to suppress a population who hate you this much."

"Or. You can send the loudest mouths off the planet for a few years. At worst, that will make the uprising weaker, maybe into something you can actually fight off. At best, your radical elements decide that it's not worth coming back to somewhere they're detested and get given a planet in Reach space to settle by the Controllers." I raise my eyebrows. "Doesn't that sound better?"

"It is not my place to say. But you are talking about arming rebels."

"No. As Prelate J'emm told me, once they leave this city, they stop being covered by your laws. And they stop being your prelate's responsibility. A potential invasion from another planet is the concern of the Planetary Council collectively. And-" I nod towards John. "-his, and mine."

"From your employee."

"I don't like these people. A few minutes ago most of them were wearing the emblem of a terrorist organisation that tried to kill me, several friends of mine, a group of civilians and let loose an insane murderer. That doesn't recommend people to me. I just want them to be treated as people, so that when they act up I can honestly say they were given every opportunity not to be total gits the whole time."

The Whites turn to look at each other, eyes glowing. John frowns slightly.

"This how you usually handle diplomacy?"

"No point in lying to a bunch of telepaths."

Mr. B'lanx turns back to me.

"How many Whites will you take?"

"I'd say 'as many as want to come', but there's a limit to how many we can fit on the ships. Fortunately, that limit is larger than the number of Whites in this city, so even if I get volunteers from other cities as well… It shouldn't be a problem."

"And for how long?"

"Depends on what job each individual ends up doing. The standard Unaffiliated Planet Sign-Up for L.E.G.I.O.N. has a minimum term of a little over two years service, then you've got the training on top of that. The minimum term for the Darkstars is longer, because Darkstars have traditionally been fairly fanatical and there wasn't any point in a shorter term. And if anyone just gets a civilian job on Maltus, the duration is whatever their contract says it is. The real barrier to returning is the fact that we don't have ships coming this way very often, and I'll offer a personal guarantee that after a year I'll fly back any group of at least a hundred individuals who wish to return."

"I will need to talk to my people about this."

"Fine with me. Lantern Stewart, could you coordinate with Lantern Coutara on transport arrangements?"

He nods. "Sure."

"The Prelate has not agreed to any of this."

"The Prelate only has the ability to disagree with the Whites leaving, and since they wouldn't be going to another city, it's a matter for the Planetary Council. I'm asking because I'd rather have an accord, not because I legally need one."

"Those laws were written without regard to alien contact!"

"Then your prelate should probably raise the matter at the next Council meeting and try and get them revised. But in the meantime, we all have to follow the law as it exists. Mister B'lanx? Do you have any further questions at this time?"

"Your ring. Is that one of the positions we can apply for?"

"Yes. However, the screening process is quite a lot more strict."

And after taking a quick look at you, I don't think I'll be offering you one of my discretionary rings. Sometimes, revolutionary leaders are true selfless believers in the cause. T'ronn is more like that. He doesn't expect to gain anything personally, just some opportunities that aren't available to Whites when they become available to everyone else. Mr. B'lanx is a believer too, but it isn't just about the injustice. His pride demands that he be the one who creates the change, and he's more than a little interested in exercising that power personally. He's perfectly capable of being an Orange Lantern, just… Not someone I'd take a chance on when I couldn't keep an eye on them.

"And then I could fly back myself."

"Clarissi Dox might take issue with you abandoning your duty station, and you'd be flying on your own for a very long time completely isolated from all other minds. But yes, in theory that's something which you could do."

"How long?"

"The war zone is on the other side of the galaxy. It would depend on how fast you are. Flying in normal space, I can do it in less than a day, but I'm the fastest Lantern I know of. I expect that most Lanterns would take a few weeks. In total isolation."

"I…" His eyes dim slightly. "Have no more questions."

"Then by all means, go and ask your people who is interested."

The Whites rise and head for the exit, the Manhunters still on duty moving away slightly to avoid… 'Misunderstandings'.

"Right. Now, I believe that I should meet with the Prelate. Would you be so good as to escort me to the palace?"

 

[hance1986]

I eagerly await what is said about Paul to future Martian generations. Unstable alien agitator, or mysterious agent of new opportunities?

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

I eagerly await what is said about Paul to future Martian generations. Unstable alien agitator, or mysterious agent of new opportunities?

Click to shrink...

Yes. Seriously, though. He's going to be a controversial figure, I think.

 

[Darko]

Mr. B'lanx is a believer too, but it isn't just about the injustice. His pride depends that he be the one who creates the change, and he's more than a little interested in exercising that power personally. He's perfectly capable of being an Orange Lantern, just… Not someone I'd take a chance on when I couldn't keep an eye on them.

Click to shrink...

So he's a lot like Komand'r, in that he's power hungry and even if he does try to do a good thing he would most likely resort to the most violent method even if said method is not necessary.

Nice that you didn't recruit him, since another Wombworld incident is probably best avoided.

 

[King of Frost]

I never really thought about this before, what is the actual difference between the white and green martians in the bobblehead programming? The reds are the ones least altered, but are the white martians the ones most? Or is that the green martians?

 

[Darko]

I never really thought about this before, what is the actual difference between the white and green martians in the bobblehead programming? The reds are the ones least altered, but are the white martians the ones most? Or is that the green martians?

Click to shrink...

I think it's the Whites that are the most altered.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

I think it's the Whites that are the most altered.

Click to shrink...

It was either least altered or most altered, but I don't remember which.

 

[Darko]

It was either least altered or most altered, but I don't remember which.

Click to shrink...

The Reds were the least altered, while the Whites were the most altered.

Karmang told renegade he only taught magic to the Reds because they felt more like the Martians he knew his whole life, said Martians being Burners.

 

[Chaoswind]

I never really thought about this before, what is the actual difference between the white and green martians in the bobblehead programming? The reds are the ones least altered, but are the white martians the ones most? Or is that the green martians?

Click to shrink...

The implication in this fic is that Whites are on average more emotional than Greens, so Whites are probably indeed the most altered and in turn the most different from Reds. Reds are the least altered, they took empathy, but to a lesser level than the two others types, and then Karman decided to only teach Reds magic (because they were less empathetic and the closest to the original burners) and they were left with all the information and most of the power, so society was shaped with them as the center... And since Whites are the least like them... Well they are clearly inferior no?

 

[SpiritualSlacker]

The implication in this fic is that Whites are on average more emotional than Greens, so Whites are probably indeed the most altered and in turn the most different from Reds.

Click to shrink...

Was that ever explicitly stated? Because I was under the impression that the martian's programming was mostly build around their aversion to fire (likely to prevent the whole "burning" part of "Burning Martian"), and that the whole burning thing was a behavioral trigger/conditioning that caused them (or more likely, was at least partly responsible for) to be as violent as they were. So the actual difference between Whites, Reds, and Greens was (barring societal advantages developed over time) their tolerance for fire, rather than actual mental or emotional state.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

4th July 2012
21:45 GMT

"…that's the offer. We're happy to accept anyone interested, though we'll be giving better terms to those with the skills we most strongly desire. There's a L.E.G.I.O.N. flotilla in near-Earth space now where I can drop you off for basic training while still keeping you close enough to other minds to avoid catatonia." I pause a moment. "Any questions?"

Click to shrink...

Oh, I'm sure they have many. Let's keep it to the most pertinent ones on the topic at hand... It'll be interesting to see how many takers he gets...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"You want us to flee?"

Mr. B'lanx sounds unconvinced.

Click to shrink...

Pfft, Hardly. Even the most foolish would-be soldier knows when to back off and find a new approach. How far has your current methods gotten you?

"I want you to come and receive professional military training in a place where you can buy weapons with your pay. If Prelate J'emm is successful, you'll be able to return to an egalitarian Mars where your company can be folded into the Manhunters. If he failed… You'll have professional military training and guns."

Click to shrink...

And the threat inherent to that statement is so obvious...

The Manhunters come to alert, the air around their hands trembling faintly with telekinetic force.

"You will leave-."

Click to shrink...

...Even an idiot could pick up on it. That really does not sound that friendly on the surface.

"No."

"No, he can stay." Mr. B'lanx tries to smile. I've seen worse. "I'm actually interested."

Click to shrink...

I'm guessing he hasn't really gotten the hang of lips yet, eh? And I see the hook is jiggling nicely. He really wants more 'negotiating' power, doesn't he?

"And it's not like you actually want him here." I look through the walls surrounding us, unfocusing my eyes as I try to take in the desires of the population of the city. "You're looking at a violent uprising and you know it. The other city states think you're a bunch of colourist arseholes. A few years ago they would have coached it in terms like 'highly conservative', but now there's a cultural revolution underway. And when the uprising happens, no other city will send you help. The city's garrison is all you'll have, and it isn't enough to suppress a population who hate you this much."

Click to shrink...

Ah, so this city really is the Martian equivalent of the Deep South. You know, the stereotypical town of asshole rednecks who probably have white hoods tucked away somewhere, and the angry minorities they just love to keep 'in their place'... The kind you really want the heroes to clean up, one way or another...

"Or. You can send the loudest mouths off the planet for a few years. At worst, that will make the uprising weaker, maybe into something you can actually fight off. At best, your radical elements decide that it's not worth coming back to somewhere they're detested and get given a planet in Reach space to settle by the Controllers." I raise my eyebrows. "Doesn't that sound better?"

"It is not my place to say. But you are talking about arming rebels."

Click to shrink...

No, if they're not on Mars, they're hardly rebels. And honestly, not coming back sounds like a much nicer deal. Once they get something set up, they bring their families along and make their own Mars, with blackjack and hookers Freedom and Liberty for all colours!

"No. As Prelate J'emm told me, once they leave this city, they stop being covered by your laws. And they stop being your prelate's responsibility. A potential invasion from another planet is the concern of the Planetary Council collectively. And-" I nod towards John. "-his, and mine."

"From your employee."

Click to shrink...

No, not OL's employee. L.E.G.I.O.N's. Honestly, were they actually listening to OL's spiel? Then again, I doubt they really care about the details...

"I don't like these people. A few minutes ago most of them were wearing the emblem of a terrorist organisation that tried to kill me, several friends of mine, a group of civilians and let loose an insane murderer. That doesn't recommend people to me. I just want them to be treated as people, so that when they act up I can honestly say they were given every opportunity not to be total gits the whole time."

The Whites turn to look at each other, eyes glowing. John frowns slightly.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like they're having quite the discussion. I bet the topic of OL's attitude is a big part of it...

"This how you usually handle diplomacy?"

"No point in lying to a bunch of telepaths."

Click to shrink...

Since the slightest gap in your shields will expose it, if they're prying hard enough. And unlike the Renegade, OL's shields, while strong, aren't nearly as impenetrable.

Mr. B'lanx turns back to me.

"How many Whites will you take?"

Click to shrink...

Sounds like a lot of them are interested. Of course, there's still the matter of undergoing training, which is sure to wash some of them out...

"I'd say 'as many as want to come', but there's a limit to how many we can fit on the ships. Fortunately, that limit is larger than the number of Whites in this city, so even if I get volunteers from other cities as well… It shouldn't be a problem."

"And for how long?"

Click to shrink...

Good to see him thinking about that. How long could he and his stand to be away during the most intense parts of the civil rights movement. And how long can they manage being out there, away from home, amongst unfamiliar minds...

"Depends on what job each individual ends up doing. The standard Unaffiliated Planet Sign-Up for L.E.G.I.O.N. has a minimum term of a little over two years service, then you've got the training on top of that. The minimum term for the Darkstars is longer, because Darkstars have traditionally been fairly fanatical and there wasn't any point in a shorter term. And if anyone just gets a civilian job on Maltus, the duration is whatever their contract says it is. The real barrier to returning is the fact that we don't have ships coming this way very often, and I'll offer a personal guarantee that after a year I'll fly back any group of at least a hundred individuals who wish to return."

Click to shrink...

That's quite the promise. The real question is how many of those going are likely to take him up on it.

"I will need to talk to my people about this."

"Fine with me. Lantern Stewart, could you coordinate with Lantern Coutara on transport arrangements?"

Click to shrink...

Delegating to his temporary replacement while he's busy. Good to see him taking advantage of being second-in-charge of the Corps...

He nods. "Sure."

"The Prelate has not agreed to any of this."

Click to shrink...

Does the Prelate have the final say on whether people can leave their city? Because that kind of attitude just screams 'tyrant' to me.

"The Prelate only has the ability to disagree with the Whites leaving, and since they wouldn't be going to another city, it's a matter for the Planetary Council. I'm asking because I'd rather have an accord, not because I legally need one."

"Those laws were written without regard to alien contact!"

Click to shrink...

Well, that's shortsighted of you. You think after knowing about Earth for as long as they have (twenty years now since J'onn J'onnz ended up on Earth?) they'd have gotten on top of that by now...

"Then your prelate should probably raise the matter at the next Council meeting and try and get them revised. But in the mean time, we all have to follow the law as it exists. Mister B'lanx? Do you have any further questions at this time?"

"Your ring. Is that one of the positions we can apply for?"

Click to shrink...

...Yeah, That's just a little worrying. It's clear B'enny here wants power... I doubt there's much question of what he'd do with it, the angry young man that he is...

"Yes. However, the screening process is quite a lot more strict."

Click to shrink...

And I'm betting B'enny here would not pass it...

And after taking a quick look at you, I don't think I'll be offering you one of my discretionary rings. Sometimes, revolutionary leaders are true selfless believers in the cause. T'ronn is more like that. He doesn't expect to gain anything personally, just some opportunities that aren't available to Whites when they become available to everyone else. Mr. B'lanx is a believer too, but it isn't just about the injustice. His pride depends that he be the one who creates the change, and he's more than a little interested in exercising that power personally. He's perfectly capable of being an Orange Lantern, just… Not someone I'd take a chance on when I couldn't keep an eye on them.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I suspect the first thing he wants to do is kill all the Greens that have ever oppressed him personally over the years... Which, yes, fits Red more than Orange, but there's always crossover between colours, after all.

"And then I could fly back myself."

"Clarissi Dox might take issue with you abandoning your duty station, and you'd be flying on your own for a very long time completely isolated from all other minds. But yes, in theory that's something which you could do."

Click to shrink...

Yeah, whoever's Ssector Lantern at the time would almost certainly be waiting for him when he arrived... If he arrived.

"How long?"

"The war zone is on the other side of the galaxy. It would depend on how fast you are. Flying in normal space, I can do it in less than a day, but I'm the fastest Lantern I know of. I expect that most Lanterns would take a few weeks. In total isolation."

Click to shrink...

For comparison, the trip to Earth is what, a week or two at Bio-ship speeds? And M'gann spent most of that in suspension...

"I…" His eyes dim slightly. "Have no more questions."

"Then by all means, go and ask your people who is interested."

Click to shrink...

And there will be interested parties. It's probably an attractive proposition, especially for those unwilling to take part in the more aggressive parts of the racial conflict...

The Whites rise and head for the exit, the Manhunters still on duty moving away slightly to avoid… 'Misunderstandings'.

"Right. Now, I believe that I should meet with the Prelate. Would you be so good as to escort me to the palace?"

Click to shrink...

Oh, that's going to be noisy... I can't wait to see it.

Well, it looks like the initial recruitment drive pitch went well. Once word spreads, I suspect there's going to be a lot of White Martian applicants. And maybe even a few Greens, for various reasons... The real coup will be if a Red or two decide to join up...

 

[Darko]

I'm guessing he hasn't really gotten the hang of lips yet, eh?

Click to shrink...

Or his smile is just unpleasant, likely because he's a violent guy.

Does the Prelate have the final say on whether people can leave their city?

Click to shrink...

A Martian in the previous chapter mentioned that they put up travel restrictions.

Well, that's shortsighted of you. You think after knowing about Earth for as long as they have (twenty years now since J'onn J'onnz ended up on Earth?) they'd have gotten on top of that by now...

Click to shrink...

To be fair they don't really have a lot of contact with aliens, so they may have thought making or changing such laws was a waste of time.

And I'm betting B'enny here would not pass it...

Click to shrink...

Ehh, the Corps has let in some people that are probably much, much worse than this guy in the personality department and who have done far worse things.

Yeah, I suspect the first thing he wants to do is kill all the Greens that have ever oppressed him personally over the years

Click to shrink...

And the second will be most likely to establish Whites as the dominant class, thus starting a new circle of racism and oppression.

 

[Chaoswind]

Was that ever explicitly stated? Because I was under the impression that the martian's programming was mostly build around their aversion to fire (likely to prevent the whole "burning" part of "Burning Martian"), and that the whole burning thing was a behavioral trigger/conditioning that caused them (or more likely, was at least partly responsible for) to be as violent as they were. So the actual difference between Whites, Reds, and Greens was (barring societal advantages developed over time) their tolerance for fire, rather than actual mental or emotional state.

Click to shrink...

The recording of the Guardian in the crashed ship says as much, all of the types took the empathy and comportment implanted to them but Reds were the least changed IE they took less. On its own that would have made Reds more likely to be more individualistic and less communal (more likely to turn to crimes too), but since Karman only taught the Reds magic and only gave them the information of pre collapse, then the reds had all the information and most of the power so they could shape Martian society to what they wanted with them at the top. If Karman had done nothing the racism would probably have been done to the Reds as they would have a higher propensity for sociopathic behavior.

 

[Darko]

but since Karman only taught the Reds magic and only gave them the information of pre collapse,

Click to shrink...

I know he taught them magic, but I don't think he ever told them anything of their Burner selfs.

 

[Stsword]

Hmm, since the mention of the Whites colonizing another planet was mentioned, I wonder if that's going to pay off into Mars 2.

Or if they decide to colonize closer to home, in the comics Gemm wasn't a red martian because no such thing exists, but a red saturnian, the Saturnians races created by the Martians. So maybe they colonize Saturn.

 

[SpiritualSlacker]

The recording of the Guardian in the crashed ship says as much, all of the types took the empathy and comportment implanted to them but Reds were the least changed IE they took less. On its own that would have made Reds more likely to be more individualistic and less communal (more likely to turn to crimes too), but since Karman only taught the Reds magic and only gave them the information of pre collapse, then the reds had all the information and most of the power so they could shape Martian society to what they wanted with them at the top. If Karman had done nothing the racism would probably have been done to the Reds as they would have a higher propensity for sociopathic behavior.

Click to shrink...

But if they all took on the "comportment and temperament" the Guardians intended, doesn't that make it sound more like the difference is less in their emotional and/or mental state?
I don't know, it still feels like we're mistakingly conflating those things with other tangible differences between the Martian colors.

 

[Chaoswind]

But if they all took on the "comportment and temperament" the Guardians intended, doesn't that make it sound more like the difference is less in their emotional and/or mental state?
I don't know, it still feels like we're mistakingly conflating those things with other tangible differences between the Martian colors.

Click to shrink...

The statement refers to implanting empathy to the burners and comportment IE behavioral alterations and giving them all Pyro phobia. They ALL took these behavioral alterations and the phobia to fire, BUT the Red ones changed the least. The whole statement refers explicitly to Empathy, behavioral alterations to make them less mental (getting off by causing suffering) and the fire phobia. If the Reds are explicitly the least changed then by default they got the less artificial empathy installed on them and their phobia to fire isn't as bad as the rest.

The entire statement refers to the mental differences that caused the difference in color and more importantly we have a lot of evidence in this fic of how it works. Whites are on average more communal and less individualistic than Greens and much certainly a lot less than Reds. Reds handle mental isolation a lot better than greens (their mages train in this) and Whites and their phobia to fire isn't as bad.

This is very easy to infer, I don't know why you are having a problem.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Damn. I want to see this Paul speak to the UN like this. Just completely done with everyone's shit. Would be glorious.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Damn. I want to see this Paul speak to the UN like this. Just completely done with everyone's shit. Would be glorious.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, humans are not telepathic, so you need to lie to them if you want them to listen to you.

 

[Darko]

The statement refers to implanting empathy to the burners and comportment IE behavioral alterations and giving them all Pyro phobia. They ALL took these behavioral alterations and the phobia to fire, BUT the Red ones changed the least. The whole statement refers explicitly to Empathy, behavioral alterations to make them less mental (getting off by causing suffering) and the fire phobia. If the Reds are explicitly the least changed then by default they got the less artificial empathy installed on them and their phobia to fire isn't as bad as the rest.

The entire statement refers to the mental differences that caused the difference in color and more importantly we have a lot of evidence in this fic of how it works. Whites are on average more communal and less individualistic than Greens and much certainly a lot less than Reds. Reds handle mental isolation a lot better than greens (their mages train in this) and Whites and their phobia to fire isn't as bad.

This is very easy to infer, I don't know why you are having a problem.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure it was ever stated, or shown, in this story that Whites were somehow less afraid of fire or that they were more communal than the others.

We know Reds are more telepathically stronger than most others and were apparently the least changed compared to the Greens and Whites, but aside from that very little else.

The isolation thing you mentioned could be more due to training rather than anything innate.

Maybe this paragon episode will focus purely on Mars so we may get more info, but until then we'll be just speculating.

 

[Flightless Man]

Its only my head cannon, but from how everything was shown, i believe the Guardians only created Green martians on purpose and entire species was supposed to be this.

Some who had more rage/or a desire to lead inside them stayed as reds instead. An anomoly but one that lead the primitive martians so was left. Over time, the species evolved and white martians began being born. Whites(in my head) are the martian species natural evolution to overcome the interferance from the guardians. They seem the least inclined to follow rules for no reason.

Reds seem more like a resistance to the changes. and whites an evolution to it.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

We don't need to speculate.

In this fic we know the Guardians changed the Martians and installed empathy and better comportment on all of the sub types, but that reds are the ones in with the effects were reduced IE reds got less empathy than the others. Then Karman decided to teach reds magic and their intrinsic advantages of their class are reinforced with the knowledge of magic.

Greens and Whites then become the underclass under the reds, but of the two colors greens are more predisposed to kiss the dirt the reds walkthrough as reds are the closest to a burning martian, thus Greens become the natural loyal servants while Whites are more like reluctant servants.

Click to shrink...

The implication in this fic is that Whites are on average more emotional than Greens, so Whites are probably indeed the most altered and in turn the most different from Reds. Reds are the least altered, they took empathy, but to a lesser level than the two others types, and then Karman decided to only teach Reds magic (because they were less empathetic and the closest to the original burners) and they were left with all the information and most of the power, so society was shaped with them as the center... And since Whites are the least like them... Well they are clearly inferior no?

Click to shrink...

The recording of the Guardian in the crashed ship says as much, all of the types took the empathy and comportment implanted to them but Reds were the least changed IE they took less. On its own that would have made Reds more likely to be more individualistic and less communal (more likely to turn to crimes too), but since Karman only taught the Reds magic and only gave them the information of pre collapse, then the reds had all the information and most of the power so they could shape Martian society to what they wanted with them at the top. If Karman had done nothing the racism would probably have been done to the Reds as they would have a higher propensity for sociopathic behavior.

Click to shrink...

Start giving quotes please, or start shutting up.

The Guardians changed each of the three strains, yes.
The Reds 'felt' the most similar to the original race according to a former member.

How and where does that make the whites the more emotional and the reds the least?
Where is that stated in the story, opposed to whatever delusions you might harboring unsupported in your head.

Because the Guardians, not very fucking big on emotion. As in they removed it from themselves in the comic apparently.
And the Burning Martians, they were big enough on emotion they used pain to reproduce.

So you saying the whites were the most changed to be the most emotional, sounds like you having your head on backwards. And when called out on it, doubled down on the stupid, while also refusing to give an actual citation.

Stop being a Vaermina here.

 

[Chaoswind]

I'm not sure it was ever stated, or shown, in this story that Whites were somehow less afraid of fire or that they were more communal than the others.

We know Reds are more telepathically stronger than most others and were apparently the least changed compared to the Greens and Whites, but aside from that very little else.

The isolation thing you mentioned could be more due to training rather than anything innate.

Maybe this paragon episode will focus purely on Mars so we may get more info, but until then we'll be just speculating.

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The entire spiel about the Reds being the least changed is ENTIRELY about the behavioral implantation.

The Guardians EXPLICITLY implanted empathy, the desire for cooperation and Pyro phobia on the burners.

We KNOW Reds have less problems with Pyro phobia AND mental isolation, thus by default they got less empathy than the rest.

Those are things that were written in the Canon of this fic, I ain't engaging in speculation, I am repeating facts. The "speculation" is ONLY as to the differences between greens and whites.

Start giving quotes please, or start shutting up.



The Guardians changed each of the three strains, yes.

The Reds 'felt' the most similar to the original race according to a former member.



How and where does that make the whites the more emotional and the reds the least?

Where is that stated in the story, opposed to whatever delusions you might harboring unsupported in your head.



Because the Guardians, not very fucking big on emotion. As in they removed it from themselves in the comic apparently.

And the Burning Martians, they were big enough on emotion they used pain to reproduce.



So you saying the whites were the most changed to be the most emotional, sounds like you having your head on backwards. And when called out on it, doubled down on the stupid, while also refusing to give an actual citation.



Stop being a Vaermina here.

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The context of my argument is very clear to me. Emotions in my argument refers only to positive ones IE empathy and community. When I say Whites are more emotional I say so in the sense they are more empathetic and communal oriented that Red's by default and are implicitly as far as this fic goes (examples between Greens and Whites) also more emotionally driven than Greens. However the sample data is small enough that I could be wrong about Whites and Greens, that part of my argument is pure speculation the rest ain't.

 

[Flightless Man]

Start giving quotes please, or start shutting up.
.

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Or atleast clarify when the fact is being repeated and when it's a persons understanding of the facts. Both are fine but don't mix them up when explaining.

We only have about 85% of the answer so far, so we have no reason to get so hostile. Were still learning so anything we "know" can change.

For all we know, Darkside is the one who made the Martians into Burners on one of his early trips to earth. Or someone else entirely.

All information has been from an unreliable narrator in some degree. Either only pieces of info from a computer, a partial/or lie filled explanation from anyone who was alive. We don't know everything yet and it's clear Zoat is still revealing more on the martian history. So NONE of us should act like we know everything. We only know for sure most changes that occured, and A reason given for why the guardians have done so. have we gotten a time travel to the event? memories from a guardian?

 

[Darko]

Its only my head cannon, but from how everything was shown, i believe the Guardians only created Green martians on purpose and entire species was supposed to be this.

Some who had more rage/or a desire to lead inside them stayed as reds instead. An anomoly but one that lead the primitive martians so was left. Over time, the species evolved and white martians began being born. Whites(in my head) are the martian species natural evolution to overcome the interferance from the guardians. They seem the least inclined to follow rules for no reason.

Reds seem more like a resistance to the changes. and whites an evolution to it.

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Your headcanon is wrong then.

White Martians, as well as Red Martians, existed since the Guardians first altered them, they weren't born after the alterations.

Karmang, who is White, used to be a Burner before the Guardians altered him.

The entire spiel about the Reds being the least changed is ENTIRELY about the behavioral implantation.

The Guardians EXPLICITLY implanted empathy, the desire for cooperation and Pyro phobia on the burners.

We KNOW Reds have less problems with Pyro phobia AND mental isolation, thus by default they got less empathy than the rest.

Those are things that were written in the Canon of this fic, I ain't engaging in speculation, I am repeating facts. The "speculation" is ONLY as to the differences between greens and whites.

Click to shrink...

Please provide a quote where this is stated then.

Where do we know that Reds have less trouble with pyrophobia and isolation, and how do we know it's because of the Guardians tampering?

Because as far as we know it could have just been because they were trained to be more resistant to pyrophobia and isolation instead of being like that due to Guardian tampering.

Aside from empathy the Guardians could have also done a whole lot of other things to them to change them, so maybe the reason they feel more like Burners is because these changes weren't as thorough with them as with the Greens and Whites, and not because they lack empathy.

When I say Whites are more emotional I say so in the sense they are more empathetic and communal oriented that Red's by default and are implicitly as far as this fic goes (examples between Greens and Whites) also more emotionally driven than Greens.

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We've seen Reds that are empathetic in this fic, like J'emm, and we've seen Whites that are not all that empathetic, like the Hyperclan.

There's also not a lot of evidence that says Whites are more emotional due to Guardian tampering.

 

[Chaoswind]

Your headcanon is wrong then.

White Martians, as well as Red Martians, existed since the Guardians first altered them, they weren't born after the alterations.

Karmang, wh9o is White, used to be a Burner before the Guardians altered him.



Please provide a quote where this is stated then.

Where do we know that Reds have less trouble with pyrophobia and isolation, and how do we know it's because of the Guardians tampering?

Because as far as we know it could have just been because they were trained to be more resistant to pyrophobia and isolation instead of being like that due to Guardian tampering.

Aside from empathy the Guardians could have also done a whole lot of other things to them to change them, so maybe the reason they feel more like Burners is because these changes weren't as thorough with them as with the Greens and Whites, and not because they lack empathy.

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The relevant facts are on both the Paragon side fight with the burner and Renegade side fight with the burner and the conversations that took place when Grayven removed the GUARDIAN limiters from Mgan and she turned red as a side effect. Grayven gave a lengthy explanation of his side three times, when he told Mgan, when he told her uncle the Martian man hunter and when he took his trip to Mars during his episode (when the Civil War started), the GUARDIAN recording shows up in the paragon episode, but it's also mentioned by Grayven.

Edit: Also once again, they don't lack absolute empathy, they aren't all sociopaths, they have less inherent empathy. The ones that made Martian society the racist paradise it is were the red ones and the interaction Grayven had with their council highlights Jeem is an outlier not the norm (and this paragon episode confirms it as well).