With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

I would recommend visiting Hades, memory and forgetting are huge parts of it

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Good point.

Hades can now give souls more power so they can act like they used to.

Though there is the possibility that due to his soul, Paul may not benefit like others do.

There's also the chance that what Hades does may not affect memories at all.

We know he can make souls more energized, but I don't think anything was mentioned of him manipulating their memories.

Their memories could have come with them.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Good point.

Hades can now give souls more power so they can act like they used to.

Though there is the possibility that due to his soul, Paul may not benefit like others do.

There's also the chance that what Hades does may not affect memories at all.

We know he can make souls more energized, but I don't think anything was mentioned of him manipulating their memories.

Their memories could have come with them.

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I meant the place, not just the god.

Afaik, several cthonian gods are associated with mental aspects, like the Nymph of madness Paul met.

 

[Agent Orange]

like the Nymph of madness Paul met.

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Are you suggesting Melinoe is the right person to help Pavlos recover his... self? Why not call Eris as well while you're at it. Can't make things any worse

In fact, after this whoopsy, Pavlos should seriously consider leaving behind an up to date memory backup with Eris for safekeeping just for situations like this. /s

 

[BartlettMagic]

Sounds like he got made into a construct.

Now we get to see him spend a chapter reversing it and come out with a power up.

Of course, the real question here is whether he will extend this new construct turn back into people ability he gains to all the other construct rings.

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i hope you're correct.

reading some of the discussion in recent pages about Renegade vs. Paragon has more or less made me realize my preferences.

i like Renegade. it's a mostly entertaining story that deviates from ring-based storytelling. i don't care for the pony angle. but, it's tolerable because Renegade isn't the main story and, more often than not, things make sense. i like the ongoing development of godhood and the spreading of godhood among the Renegade's people. i would like to see more about that. the effects of enlightenment on Artemis were one of the more interesting parts of their time in the Sheeda storyline.

i prefer Paragon. the concepts of the emotional spectrum and power rings have always been my favorite parts of DC lore. as such, i prefer it when OL interacts with those kinds of things (color users), but i also still greatly enjoy the magic stories, the stories about the greek pantheon, and other things that i vaguely know some things about. if there's some kind of 'hard reset' on OL here, i'm not sure how much longer i'll be sticking around. i've read every post since the beginning, and while i do acknowledge that it must be a challenge for Zoat to keep things fresh and moving, i would hope that we aren't to the point of reset just yet. there is so much more left that our delightfully overpowered OL can do with the story that's been created so far; there's no need to scrap all of that potential.

the 'offshoot' versions of Paul... well. i guess it depends on the backgrounds. i know nothing of and care nothing for Warhammer. but, i've been introduced to some really interesting lore, such as the Gates and the one whose name i can't remember, with superheroes (Wyrm?). so i guess that just depends on where we end up.

this is all a way of saying that i've been happy so far (lack of Lobo notwithstanding). i can enjoy the boat being rocked, but i have no desire to be dumped in the water.

but, in the end, my opinions don't matter in the least bit. roll with the punches, baby.

 

[Darko]

and the one whose name i can't remember, with superheroes (Wyrm?).

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He's called Lord Protector.

He actually ended up in the 21st century version of the Thundercats cartoon, but later on ended up going to the Worm universe and killed some of the bad guys, like Lung.

And for some reason he's helping Nilbog, a deranged and delusional mass murderer.

lack of Lobo

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Now I'm sad.

 

[Doccer]

GETAWAYGAEAWAYGETAWAYGETAWAY

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ET
That our this is supposed to be a sign of his desires/thoughts getting frazzled.

 

[Mr Zoat]

That's because Zoat made up the term.

What the thunderers of Qward use in the comics are qwa-bolts, powered by Q-Energy.

Thrown and melee weapons that can cause explosions, disintegrate, or generate intense heat, and a threat to lanterns and kryptonians alike.

Which is ironic, them being thrown weapons, considering Paul likes to stick his nose up at archery, which is generally a step up from thrown weaponry.

Im still hoping that a Paul runs into Deadeye, the Qwardian archer. The "trick arrows" of a Qwardian ought to be extremely nasty.....

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Oh, no, the thrown bolts are stupid. It's the resulting impact that's significant. You'll not that the scarab warrior from this episode fired his out of a gun.

My explanation for the bolts in this story is that 1) it's actually really hard to manipulate qwa-matter and 2) they're a lot more advanced than they look.

ET
That our this is supposed to be a sign of his desires/thoughts getting frazzled.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Grimnar]

I Despise memory lose arcs, and Detest power regression.

I think I'm going to duck out for a few months.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I Despise memory lose arcs, and Detest power regression.

I think I'm going to duck out for a few months.

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So you know what I'm going to write not only before I post it but before I even write it?

Gosh, you're clever.

 

[jonasquinn]

So you know what I'm going to write not only before I post it but before I even write it?

Gosh, you're clever.

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While that does give me hope I have to agree with Grimnar, those are some of the worst tropes in fiction and for the most part this story has managed to avoid them and I'd be extraordinarily disappointed if they came in now

I'll give each update a quick skim but until I know how this pans out I'm probably not going to be reading the arc in it's entirety because if this is a long term nerf and/or memory loss then that's kind of story killing stuff for me

 

[Coda]

I'll give each update a quick skim but until I know how this pans out I'm probably not going to be reading the arc in it's entirety because if this is a long term nerf and/or memory loss then that's kind of story killing stuff for me

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And this only a couple pages after someone complaining that the main character never takes any serious losses.

Can't win 'em all, I guess.

 

[jonasquinn]

And this only a couple pages after someone complaining that the main character never takes any serious losses.

Can't win 'em all, I guess.

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I mean, I call a huge amount of bullshit over that

The fact that OL rolls with the punches and eventually overcomes or moves around his losses doesn't mean those losses never happened

Plus even if that was true, which in my opinion it isn't, there's a hundred different things that could be done other than memory loss and power regression

 

[Flightless Man]

Novel, maybe. But I don't think (pretty much) killing the protagonist and replacing them is a great idea?

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More of reseting them to an earlier point in the story. If chapter 20 Paul woke up, it would be a reason he spends time with the team again.

I'm not for or against it, it's just a possible way of keeping the same general character(personality wise) but depowering and taking authority away while he retrains/regains memories.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

More of reseting them to an earlier point in the story. If chapter 20 Paul woke up, it would be a reason he spends time with the team again.

I'm not for or against it, it's just a possible way of keeping the same general character(personality wise) but depowering and taking authority away while he retrains/regains memories.

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A waste of hundreds of thousands of words, imo.

 

[jonasquinn]

More of reseting them to an earlier point in the story. If chapter 20 Paul woke up, it would be a reason he spends time with the team again.

I'm not for or against it, it's just a possible way of keeping the same general character(personality wise) but depowering and taking authority away while he retrains/regains memories.

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I mean it would undo literally the majority of the story, which is especially frustrating when we've just gotten to the much hyped Reach War and after the disappointment that was the Clash of Infinite Pauls I'd hate to have it happen again

 

[hkim]

I mean it would undo literally the majority of the story, which is especially frustrating when we've just gotten to the much hyped Reach War and after the disappointment that was the Clash of Infinite Pauls I'd hate to have it happen again

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You don't think that after Paul's had major effects on the world, dialing him back and having that world need to have an effect on him again would be an interesting source of drama and character interactions?

 

[Pez]

I'm not going to freak out, because until it becomes some kind of permanent reset or power regression, it isn't. When bad shit like this happens to Paul, he adapts and eventually becomes more: the shit with Troggs (I think I got that name right), the merger with the Ophidian, all the soul stuff, etc.

I will say, though, that even as imba as Qwa Matter is, I don't think Paul would have succummbed to it. I think his desire to live should have held his body together, even if he was left in a state of constantly needed to desire to live to keep his body from becoming nothing, until they did some Ophidian/Orange CPB merger nonsense that would then allow Paul to shoot Qwa Matter from his eyes as Vox changes his war strategy and just lets Paul blow up all the Reach's suns.

I am a bit disappointed that, as he was disentegrating, he never thought of Jade, especially after his little joke on how he would have liked it if Jade became a Violet Lantern and powered her ring with her love for him.

I really like this chapter, but I have a feeling I will hate the inevitable recovery and power up this will result in. Permanent identity loss would be a novel way of giving a character a makeover without pushing the reset button on the universe multiverse as a whole.

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This is one of the reasons that keeps me from reading comics. First, I can't stand becoming invested in a story, just for it to be dropped because it's not making money. Second, all the god damn resets or changes to make things neater. It's the curse of comics, I understand that, but it still pisses me off. It's why reboots and remakes are so horrible.

 

[Darko]

Troggs (I think I got that name right),

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It's actually Truggs.

 

[jonasquinn]

You don't think that after Paul's had major effects on the world, dialing him back and having that world need to have an effect on him again would be an interesting source of drama and character interactions?

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It depends entirely on how long it lasts for, if it lasts an episode? Sure, that could maybe be interesting if ultimately pointless since once he returns to his normal self he'll be enlightened again and be exactly the way he was before he got hit. But if it lasts longer than that? Absolutely not, I want to see the story actually progress not deal with this random setback

Also I just thought of something, surely it should be physically impossible for OL to become unenlightened? His soul is literally bonded to the immortal, omniscient Entity of Avarice. Short of his soul being completely destroyed and rebuilt, which means this is permanent or at the very least extremely long lasting, the Ophidian should be able to just go "Boop, here's all your memories back"

 

[Darko]

It depends entirely on how long it lasts for, if it lasts an episode? Sure, that could maybe be interesting if ultimately pointless since once he returns to his normal self he'll be enlightened again and be exactly the way he was before he got hit. But if it lasts longer than that? Absolutely not, I want to see the story actually progress not deal with this random setback

Also I just thought of something, surely it should be physically impossible for OL to become unenlightened? His soul is literally bonded to the immortal, omniscient Entity of Avarice. Short of his soul being completely destroyed and rebuilt, which means this is permanent or at the very least extremely long lasting, the Ophidian should be able to just go "Boop, here's all your memories back"

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The Ophidian, while powerful, may be limited in what she can do.

 

[jonasquinn]

The Ophidian, while powerful, may be limited in what she can do.

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I mean, not really? She's one of the fundamental aspects of life in the universe and OL has basically been a part of her for over a year now

Unless he now has a completely different soul, which has its own major problems, the Ophidian should be able to find him and essentially back up the last save of him

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

I mean, not really? She's one of the fundamental aspects of life in the universe and OL has basically been a part of her for over a year now

Unless he now has a completely different soul, which has its own major problems, the Ophidia should be able to find him and essentially back up the last save of him

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I suppose that it could be easy as just bringing Paul to the Orange Central Power Battery, where Ophidian fixes him.

 

[Vaermina]

It depends entirely on how long it lasts for, if it lasts an episode? Sure, that could maybe be interesting if ultimately pointless since once he returns to his normal self he'll be enlightened again and be exactly the way he was before he got hit. But if it lasts longer than that? Absolutely not, I want to see the story actually progress not deal with this random setback

Also I just thought of something, surely it should be physically impossible for OL to become unenlightened? His soul is literally bonded to the immortal, omniscient Entity of Avarice. Short of his soul being completely destroyed and rebuilt, which means this is permanent or at the very least extremely long lasting, the Ophidian should be able to just go "Boop, here's all your memories back"

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This is progressing, because the story has been static due to Paragon's power level for over a year.

I mean, not really? She's one of the fundamental aspects of life in the universe and OL has basically been a part of her for over a year now

Unless he now has a completely different soul, which has its own major problems, the Ophidian should be able to find him and essentially back up the last save of him

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You might want to actually look up what the Entities powers are... Cause resurrecting people is purely a white thing... And messing with Souls is purely a Black.

 

[Lone Courier 6]

I mean, not really? She's one of the fundamental aspects of life in the universe and OL has basically been a part of her for over a year now

Unless he now has a completely different soul, which has its own major problems, the Ophidian should be able to find him and essentially back up the last save of him

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You might want to actually look up what the Entities powers are... Cause resurrecting people is purely a white thing... And messing with Souls is purely a Black.

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IRRC not even Parallax Hal Jordan could do that and he was capable of ALOT of bullshit.

EDIT: Wait no, he resurrected Oliver Queen before he reiginited the sun.

 

[hkim]

This is progressing, because the story has been static due to Paragon's power level for over a year.

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This so much. A character's stats are not the story. Losing powers isn't going "backwards" or "undoing the story". Conflict and loss are good for stories. We'll see how Zoat pulls if off of course - if nothing else I'd imagine we'll get some fun Orange moments.


-obligatory "wow agreeing with vaermina note, we're walking-

 

[Vaermina]

IRRC not even Parallax Hal Jordan could do that and he was capable of ALOT of bullshit.

EDIT: Wait no, he resurrected Oliver Queen before he reiginited the sun.

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Sort of, the brought back Oliver Queen was missing both his soul and most of his memories.

So I would say that was less of a resurrection and more of a meat puppet incident.

 

[Lone Courier 6]

And the Embodiments of each Light are all about equivalent, the Ophidian *only* has Orange Light, just as Ion only as Green Light, Ophidian can WANT all she can...but at a certain point that is insufficient.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

So, not going to lie, pretty annoyed that the second OL finally starts showing some flex and not having his every effort shut down or tanked....he gets one shot by a mega bullshit beam.

Now, normally I would suspect that the loss of his memories and Orange quotes would be yet another Thor gets set back because Mjölnir was broken again, gotta give up the Odinforce and head back to the status quo once more. Because during my time as a lower assistant at Marvel, god damn did I have to sit in a lot of meetings with writers who wanted nothing more than to undo/ignore continuity because they either didn't care, or liked how things were "before".

But Zoat has earned more faith than that. I really can't see him doing a depower, even though its the thing I've feared happening every single time the bitchfest starts.

And yet the love between them is no lie, the lengths he'll go to for them isn't a lie. The Persona and Identity has merged with who he was, but that doesn't make the emotional bond they have any less true, the fear he had when he realized that his ability to return the love they had for him was severed, broken by the Anti-Life...and he knew he should have had for them was true, you might not be able to take it seriously because of the ponies but just because his identity is a lie that even he now believes, doesn't mean what he's done is false. He isn't Grayven son of Darkseid, but he's a New God of Conquest all the same.

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I didn't forget about you.

So, again, here is where we divide.

Because to me, everything about Rene-Paul is a lie. He's putting on an act at almost all times, and what's worse, he knows that. So his time with Ace, and his "love" for her, is another thing I chalk up as him bullshiting. He's out and out lying to her about who he is. Furthermore, I believe he shared part of his soul with her? Which I attribute as the source for most of his feelings for her.

His rejection of self, of who he really is, really rubs me the wrong way. I thought we were getting somewhere when he had that episode at the Source wall, when he out and out declared his name to be "Paul".

So, to me mind you, ALL of his relationships are false. Because ALL of them are based around lies.

But that's me.

This so much. A character's stats are not the story. Losing powers isn't going "backwards" or "undoing the story". Conflict and loss are good for stories.

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But it is.

So, longtime Hulk and Thor fan here.

Do you know how many times I've had to sit through Thor losing his hammer, the hammer being destroyed, him gaining power as he steps into Odin's role, only for all that to be undone when some new guy takes over?

It's not "conflict and loss". It's "Oh goodie, we get to go through THIS shit again."

Just like with Hulk. Oh look, Banner's trying to cure himself again. Oh golly gee willikers, I wonder if it'll work THIS time. Oh look it didn't. Because it was never going to. Then we got that god awful Professor Hulk. *Shiver*.

Because, let's be real, real, REAL honest with ourselves here. IF Para-Paul actually got this major downgrade in power, and I have faith in Zoat that he wouldn't do something that lame. But IF it actually happened....the first thing OL would do is work to undo it.

He wouldn't go "Oh gee, I'm just a comic book character. I guess I'll have to accept the status quo as I fight from underneath as the underdog again."

He'd go "Huh, well I'm bloody well still Agent Orange aren't I? Guess I'll have to have a chat with Best Snek and get this worked out."

Because that's the type of person he has shown, over and over, himself to be.

 

[Lone Courier 6]

He'd go "Huh, well I'm bloody well still Agent Orange aren't I? Guess I'll have to have a chat with Best Snek and get this worked out."

Because that's the type of person he has shown, over and over, himself to be.

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Unless with the loss of his enlightenment and many of his memories, he takes the Post Civil War(1, the one where he deleted his entire mind to keep it out of Norman Osborn's hands) Back Up Tony Stark approach to seeing/hearing about what he has done, and reacts with abject horror at how he could have done some of the things he has.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Unless with the loss of his enlightenment and many of his memories, he takes the Post Civil War(1, the one where he deleted his entire mind to keep it out of Norman Osborn's hands) Back Up Tony Stark approach to seeing/hearing about what he has done, and reacts with abject horror at how he could have done some of the things he has.

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Yes, a reboot of a character back to (kinda) factory because the new author didn't want to deal with ANY of the characterization or development Tony had undergone during a universally panned and despised storyline....one that had its every consequence rebooted anyway.

Cap's dead. No he's not.

He's always been a Nazi. (Oh SHIT, that was a terrible idea!!!!) No he's not, cosmic cubery.

Thor has the Odinforce, now he doesn't, now he doesn't even have his hammer, Chick-Thor is the bestest ever, ah shit! Reboot Reboot!

All new, All different! Nu52! Ah FUCK! They aren't buying! Reboot Reboot!

Plus, while OL isn't the same person mentally as he was when he first woke up in space (On account of all that character development people like to ignore) I can't see where he's had too many actions that he'd be "horrified" by.

Now Grayven might.

Finally, the character reboots that happened post Civil War were in response to a god awful story that no one asked for, no one wanted, even the authors couldn't decide on what they wanted, or just wanted to soapbox.

Let's not forget that the Lady that lectures Captain America about being out of touch because he hasn't watched any Youtube videos or sat in the stands for a NASCAR race? Yeah, we are supposed to Agree with her.

So the big difference is....Civil War was a shit story. With this Ring is decidedly NOT.