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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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jaelin910 said:
Sounding more and more like just backstabbing Kalmin and cooperating with Varnathon would be the best bet for everyone
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Like HInon Hin Hanna Barbara said, the minimum requirement for treating the Qwardians as redeemable is turning away from the Anti-Monitor. This man has done that, Kalmin hasn't.

The slight problem here is, he wants to convert his people from the religion of Super Villain Evil to Real Life Imperialism Evil. So without more work invested into changing their culture even further, you could end up with Evil Reach Empire, Antimatter version. Because the Reach aren't trying to collapse reality into nothingness, but OL still wants them dead because of how detrimental they are to everyone around them.

A win would be getting the Qwardians to be merely as evil as the Thanagarian Empire, which is still a problem for Earth, on account of the whole 'conquers other races, takes their resources, intentionally turns them into a racial underclass while destroying their culture' and so on.
 
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I was weirded out by the Illustres' choice as well, but further thinking on it I agree with his decision. Yes, the omnicidal version of qwardians that Kalmin wants are more dangerous, but, they are relatively self contained, in fact they are like Apokolips.

Darkseid and his armies have the ability to wage a devastating war on the rest of the universe practically whenever they want, akin to the Annihilation Wave that happened in Marvel a while ago, and impose his tyranny that way. They don't do it because Darkseid wants the Anti-Life equation and to do it with just "one button", instead of "having to work for it", so they are relatively self-contained.

The qwardians like Kalmin want to destroy the universe and everything in it because they believe and follow the Anti-Monitor, but they are dedicated to creating more and better destructive weapons (Weaponers) and training to be more efficient and better warriors as the army of the Anti-Monitor (Thunderers). They already have qwa matter, if they wanted they could build a fleet with a bunch of qwa energy weapons and qwa matter bombs and fly through the space just blowing everything up; not even the Illustres could escape/survive a qwa matter bomb of enough size. So they are self-contained because they are waiting for the Anti-Monitor or until they find the perfect weapon capable of destroying everything with "one button", instead of "having to work for it".

If the Illustres let Varnathon continue his plans he lets a new Evil Empire be born. Right now, Qward doesn't have an empire, they are just extremely dangerous and sometimes commit some atrocity or another, same thing with Apokolips like Canis Minor said. So, if Apokolips can be left alone until a proper solution is devised for them, the omnicidal qwardians can be left alone as well, instead of letting them become an expansionist, evil empire that would have access to qwa weapons, a pretty good trump card against anything else in their universe (that we know).

TL;DR better to leave Qward in the hands of the omnicidal crazies because they stay in their planet, than let them become an empire that would expand and become a headache in the same level or worse than the Reach.
 
Mr Zoat said:
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I suppose can see Paul's argument. Kalmin is always going to be a problem and will never create anything beneficial without having to be tricked into it. However he will never be a complicated problem to deal with. He isn't going to get meaningfully more dangerous than he already is or rally others to his cause. Varnathon on the other hand is trying to build a civilisation. One that may actually be capable of resiting Paul's desires and becoming a competitor.

That said if Paul isn't going to fix Qward, or let someone else fix it for him, he really should destroy the place. Leaving them as a resource for the Antimonitor is just irresponsible. The sort of irresponsible he is always giving the Guardians grief for.
 
this is off-topic, but i have a question:

who would win: Darkseid or qwa-matter explosion?

after reading the posts here since the last installment, i was thinking that a potentially productive aim for Qward would be Apokolips. let them duke it out and then finish off the winner when they're weakened from fighting.
 
Mr Zoat said:
O-oh. It's like looking at myself. And not just because I'm feeling what he's feeling. He sees the same potential in Qward that I see in Earth; not just serving an uncaring god but building a mighty empire across the stars.

But it's just not in my interests to let him.

I stick a construct muzzle over his face.

"Kalmin, come to my location. We have him."
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Ha this feels like the Later Stormwatch era.
Everyone wants a better world but only on their own terms.

For earth to Rise Qward must fall.


hkim said:
What exactly is Kalmin doing for OL again? Cause this seems like a really dumb move in the long and short term.
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He's very good at building power rings and inventing other weapons to fight the reach.
Dox and the Controllers are good but Kalmin has that special spark that makes him great at making things that destroy.

jaelin910 said:
Sounding more and more like just backstabbing Kalmin and cooperating with Varnathon would be the best bet for everyone
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actually it isn't, a unified Qward is a threat to everyone.
The current Qward where they are too busy with infighting and power plays is at most an occasional major nuisance.
 
BartlettMagic said:
this is off-topic, but i have a question:

who would win: Darkseid or qwa-matter explosion?

after reading the posts here since the last installment, i was thinking that a potentially productive aim for Qward would be Apokolips. let them duke it out and then finish off the winner when they're weakened from fighting.
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Considering the connection Qwa-matter has to The Anti-Monitor I'd say the bomb, Darksied is far less powerful than his modern comic version in WTR, and in a recent-ish (n52, blegh) comic Darksied was baiscally one-shot by The Anti-Monitor.
 
Didn't want to point it out earlier, but since OL's made his choice I just want to put something out there.

During his little demo, Varnathon couldn't make a proper Qwa-bolt. He was slow with generating the Qwa-energy and transforming it into Qwa matter. He's near apprentice grade qualified with the stuff.

The Bomb that (mostly)killed OL was Qwa-matter on an industrial scale.

Varnathon didn't get help from other weaponers to produce his 'trade goods' to the Reach and others.

So, How'd he produce that much?

In a clearly unrelated line of inquiry, where are all the near apprentice grade qwardians currently used as medical experiments being held? And who put them there?

Thinking that Varnathon is the lesser of evils here MIGHT be stretching things more then you'd think.

Food for thought.
 
hkim said:
What exactly is Kalmin doing for OL again? Cause this seems like a really dumb move in the long and short term.
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Never build a company with only one supply of a critical resource. Or, in this case, "never build a corps".

Leaving aside his ability to create blue and other color rings and lanterns, he's an alternate source of orange rings and lanterns, which is crucial to maintaining autonomy from the Controllers.

BartlettMagic said:
let them duke it out and then finish off the winner when they're weakened from fighting.
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Problem: Apokolips might be left stronger by the fighting.

Someguy Somewhere said:
So, How'd he produce that much?
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Qward probably had a strategic qwa-matter reserve. Might still, but it's greatly reduced if so.
 
How is that Renegade option? She is still making an evil Empire only a more EFFICIENT ONE THAT USES BRAINWASHING.

How anyone would think that's better that an Empire that fights against each other?

The last century and a half of the Roman Enpure was it self destructing. Now imagine id someone had gone and fixed things with "BRAINSHING!" The Empire would have lasted much longer.

I don't think letting an evil society proster into more efficient evil is the Paragon option.
 
DrThoth said:
I wonder how Hinon will react to this course of events and Paragon's
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Exasperated at Paul's latest bout of lunacy.

FreeGod said:
Seems like it would have been easier to work with multiple controllers. They are hardly a monolith.
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True, but Paul may not have known that at the time.

And he also told Guy that he needed someone to make a green or blue Lantern for him, but the Controllers had already connected to the OCB, so even if they knew how to make those they may not have been capable.

At this point I honestly think he should just blow the whole place up.

No matter which of the two options he chooses everyone is screwed.

If he picks Varnathon then there's a new evil empire.

If he picks Kalmin then the Anti-Monitor has his loyal servants.
 
Someguy Somewhere said:
Didn't want to point it out earlier, but since OL's made his choice I just want to put something out there.
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You are making be imagine Varnathon as Beetlejuice in the pitch scene.
"What about them sandworms, I hate 'em, right?"

"Hey there...guy! You look like you might be a part of Team Good. I have a mentioned how I am also trying to a member of Team Good?"

And then ended up with with a critical fail because while he did make the Speech Check and convince OL he was 'good' he neglected to roll a Sense Motive check and just assumed that is something OL would care about much more than he actually did.
 
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Chojin Patriarch said:
Because Kalmin was more useful alive. Honestly, it's like he's not even paying attention. If Varnathon's received any information from the Reach alongside their payments for Qwa-Matter, the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps would be a major data point in it.
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To be fair his experience with Lanterns has probably mostly been with Green Lanterns, who are mostly good guys.

And if he knows about Paul's fight with the Reach then he may think that he's opposed to evil, so him being shocked at a supposed good guy helping a monster like Kalmin is pretty understandable.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And that's Canon, by the way. Thankfully later rings are less setup-intensive. Unless they really drove 3,600 (7,200 if matching the current Greens) separate planets to destruction to farm the fear...
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I don't know.

Sinestro could do a lot of evil things if he thought they were justified, and his Corps was made up of mostly sociopaths.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Good god, it's strange to see this from the outside..." And yet, his approach is still flawed. People like Kalmin are still out there, ready to overthrow him and put things back the proper way. His position is precarious as hell because of that.
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To be fair, the only ones we've seen opposing him are Kalmin, his former apprentice, and a bunch of students.

If that's all his opposition is, then it's very small.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Mighty Empire across the Stars' does not strike the same note as OL's enlightened desire to uplift Humanity. I mean, yes, early on, Humans probably would be tempted to go the Empire route...
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I think it does align with his uplift desire.

He may want them to become a galactic power, but will probably stop them if the decide to go the slavery, colonialism, genocide route, as a lot of other empires have done.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And this is already raising hackles in the thread, I see. But I can see where OL is coming from. There are just too many variables to predict where Varnathon would take things in the long term. For all we know, he'd drive Qward into a hole, or trigger a social backlash far worse than what we've seen, triggering a new crusade against all life in the Matter universe. Or it might be like Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, where the final choice is really picking from two bad ends (and should have awarded Renegade points either way.)
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I'll say it again, at this point blowing the whole place up seems like a better option. That way there's no evil empire and no evil cult.

Chojin Patriarch said:
After all, isn't it 'Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't'?
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Though it is better to not work with the Devil at all, since that rarely leads to a good ending.
 
Something I feel like people need to realise is that Kalmin and Varnathon are the two extremes when it comes to the Q'ardajin

As we've already seen the majority of them don't take the anti-monitor stuff as seriously as Kalmin does nor are they as literally omnicidal but they also aren't as willing to completely defy them like Varnathon is, the best case scenario is having them somewhere in the middle where they're unwilling to sell all their extremely dangerous technology to OL's enemies but also aren't going around destroying the universe

As for just blowing Qward up, that's probably much easier said than done
 
Agent Orange said:
He hasn't? Didn't he and Zatanna spent their Valentine's Day there? That whole Crime Syndicate sequel plot that ended in a compromise no one involved liked?
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They spent it on Earth -14, not Earth -16.
Don't you mean captured, vivisected, then killed and dissected?
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Thank you, corrected.
Ngamer11 said:
In some versions of the comics. In this story, this version of the Syndicate is in a parallel universe.
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What did you think the ' - ' was for?
Pinklestia said:
How is that Renegade option? She is still making an evil Empire only a more EFFICIENT ONE THAT USES BRAINWASHING.

How anyone would think that's better that an Empire that fights against each other?

The last century and a half of the Roman Enpure was it self destructing. Now imagine id someone had gone and fixed things with "BRAINSHING!" The Empire would have lasted much longer.

I don't think letting an evil society proster into more efficient evil is the Paragon option.
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How is Antimatter side different from a parallel universe? Is it more like a pocket universe/realm?
 
Mr Zoat said:
"You're working with a man who genuinely wants to destroy all reality!"

"Yes?"

"Why?!"

"I really need someone with his skill set. And there's only so much evil he can do when we're watching him so closely."
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Because Paragon's an idiot.

But it's just not in my interests to let him.
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That's completely false.

You're just so desperate to justify allying with a genocidal maniac that your knee deep in the sunk cost fallacy of supporting him.
 
Agent Orange said:
How is Antimatter side different from a parallel universe? Is it more like a pocket universe/realm?
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From what I understand, and I may be completely wrong here, a parallel universe comes into existence when timelines split, a la string theory, whereas the antimatter universe is an entirely separate universe made up of antimatter that came into existence at the exact same moment as the matter universe
Vaermina said:
That's completely false.

You're just so desperate to justify allying with a genocidal maniac that your knee deep in the sunk cost fallacy of supporting him.
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Oh look, it's another Vaermina post confidently stating a biased, incorrect opinion without any evidence to back it up!

How rare
 
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