With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Well hey there, partner!"

Earl Dukeston

The robot that fought Black Canary and had oil fields.

Mr Zoat said:
A car that drive the route

'that drives' or 'drove'

Mr Zoat said:
A weighing machine that guesses the weight of anyone who walks by it with surprising accuracy."

That was probably embarrassing.

Mr Zoat said:
Bet some folks didn't like that."

I assume not.

Mr Zoat said:
probably more than we aren't

'that we'

Mr Zoat said:
ah'm a machine thinks he's a man

'that thinks'

Mr Zoat said:
physically make the no any more,

Maybe 'physically make the journey'

Mr Zoat said:
Howsabout me, then? Ah've been going to church. Ah believe just like he did, and the law says ah'm a person even if ah ain't exactly a man. Will ah go to Heaven, or the other place if'n ah don't measure up?"

Now I'm thinking that if this is the Metal, then machines may end up there if they die.

Mr Zoat said:
. In that case, my understanding is 'no'. Even in mystically strong worlds, AIs struggle to gather the sort of arcane weight that organic creatures do

Fortunately, Earth is bullshit, so you may be okay Earl.

RichardWhereat · Apr 12, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Shouldn't even be able to dream in the first place, and there ain't exactly a standard for 'normal' when you're me.

Morpheus isn't quite so discriminating. If you wants to, he'll lets you.

Mr Zoat said:
"Ah already talked that one out with mah shrink. Like ah'm standing in a room surrounded by all kinds a' folks, but none of 'em can see or hear each other, an' ah can't talk neither." He shrugs. "Guess it just means ah need to get out and make more friends."

Ahh, the Metal.

Mr Zoat said:
"It's not practical to be suspicious of everything, anyway. What are your normal dreams like?"

"Ones and zeroes, my friend. Ones and zeroes."

So, programming, or Morpheus?

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

RichardWhereat said:
Morpheus isn't quite so discriminating. If you wants to, he'll lets you.

Unless you cheat on him with some other guy.

Then he'll take away the ability to dream from your entire species, like he did to the Maltusians in this universe.

doug89 · Apr 12, 2021

thebishop8 said:
I don't think we've seen this guy since episode 11, nearly 100 episodes ago.

As far as I can tell he's only been mentioned a handful of times.

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2432460/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2432462/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2513309/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/3006989/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/4284695/

First two are when the robots captured the team. The third when AI got human rights. Four this a passing reference while discussing Ai. The fifth is this chapter.

RichardWhereat · Apr 12, 2021

doug89 said:
As far as I can tell he's only been mentioned a handful of times.

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2432460/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2432462/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/2513309/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/3006989/
https://forum.questionablequesting.com/posts/4284695/

First two are when the robots captured the team. The third when AI got human rights. Four this a passing reference while discussing Ai. The fifth is this chapter.

Wish we had an index of all the different Paul's and characters. I'd love to read the Buffy version again, and the Nazi Kara one.

Mr Zoat · Apr 12, 2021

Darko said:
'that drives' or 'drove'
'that we'
Maybe 'physically make the journey'

Thank you, corrected.

'that thinks'

I think that's how he'd say it.

RichardWhereat said:
Wish we had an index of all the different Paul's and characters. I'd love to read the Buffy version again, and the Nazi Kara one.

I don't think there was one in the Nazi timeline.

RichardWhereat · Apr 12, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
I don't think there was one in the Nazi timeline.

No, I mean when he takes her to meet her non-nazi self. And I guess that was never Kara. That was someone else who was experimented on.

Z000 · Apr 12, 2021

i though Zoat hate the Nu crap, why are the signs pointing toward the Parliament of Metal ( or whatever government type they use) showing up

doug89 · Apr 12, 2021

RichardWhereat said:
No, I mean when he takes her to meet her non-nazi self. And I guess that was never Kara. That was someone else who was experimented on.

Here is her meeting her non-~~Nazi~~ National Socialist self.

https://forum.questionablequesting....stice-si-story-only.8961/page-82#post-3281206

If you want to look at the few chapters that were in Buffy, go to the Story Only thread, and search for 1997.

RichardWhereat · Apr 12, 2021

doug89 said:
Here is her meeting her non-~~Nazi~~ National Socialist self.

https://forum.questionablequesting....stice-si-story-only.8961/page-82#post-3281206

If you want to look at the few chapters that were in Buffy, go to the Story Only thread, and search for 1997.

Thank you

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

Z000 said:
i though Zoat hate the Nu crap, why are the signs pointing toward the Parliament of Metal ( or whatever government type they use) showing up

He has used some things from it from time to time, like characters that showed up in the n52, so he may have decided to use the Metal.

Though it may also be something else.

Handlewithcare · Apr 12, 2021

He isn't dreaming of electric sheep?

Or oil powered sheep in his case, I guess

Actually, this could be the explanation: one AI or other has gotten/is trying to get a soul and as a side effect a lot of machines are getting snippets of one too

Which would be a problem. Giving AI rights is obvious but when every mechanical/electric thing suddenly gains agency there would be chaos

Zig · Apr 12, 2021

Z000 said:
i though Zoat hate the Nu crap, why are the signs pointing toward the Parliament of Metal ( or whatever government type they use) showing up

Zoat may hate the nu crap but he loves fucking with us,

Chojin Patriarch · Apr 12, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
22nd July 2012
12:32 GMT -5

"Well hey there, partner!"

Earl Dukeston smiles warmly, striding over to shake my hand the moment his secretary lets me into his office. His… Huge office, which I might call a penis extension if I didn't know for a fact that he doesn't have one. Though I do note that he's had extra padding added to his right hand; his grip feels a lot more like that of a human hand and less like that of an industrial crusher than last time.

Oh-ho! Well, there's someone I forgot about entirely. Last seen surrendering to Black Canary and OL on the promise of a fair trial under OL's 'non-conventional Human' laws. What's he been up to, then? Evidently, whatever it is, it's turning a good profit...

"Sit down, sit down." Right hand on my back, he leads me to his coffee table and takes a seat opposite me. I sit down and he leans back, apparently completely at ease. "What brings you to my neck of the woods?"

"There's been a rash of… What I can only call strange malfunctions: machines so committed to their jobs that they do them without human agency or.. even power-."

Ah... So ask a machine that can actually talk to humans to poke them and see if anything pops out?

"Ah, hey." He holds his hands up defensively. "Ah'm totally legitimate, straight and narrow, wouldn't say 'boo' to a goose. Y'all can check with-."

"Oh-. No, no." I shake my head. "I wasn't accusing you. Sorry, I can.. see how that could have sounded."

Ah, OL. So amusingly oblivious to deeper meanings when it's funny. Honestly, you never thought that he might assume that?

"Well good." He puts his right hand on his chest, smile still in place. "If I had a heart, it'd be racing right now! Ah'm a good boy these days, now there's no electric gun against mah head."

"I have no reason to doubt that, and as I said at the hearing, I can think of no reason why you wouldn't be."

While not entirely related to this... Fun anecdote: The brand-name 'Taser' is actually an acronym, from a sci-fi tale: 'Thomas A Swift's Electric Rifle'. Because, you know, the obvious similarities.

"So long as we're clear about that. Machines acting up, huh?"

"A car that drive the route to work without regard for traffic laws, a robot assembly line trying to assemble golf carts from nothing." I smile. "A weighing machine that guesses the weight of anyone who walks by it with surprising accuracy."

Which more than a few ladies probably found annoying... And those around them found amusing? At least these manifestations are benign so far.

"Bet some folks didn't like that."

"Actually, it drew a crowd. I've got a dozen other reports, and there are probably more than we aren't finding out about because people either don't notice or chalk it up to a normal malfunction."

Heh. Whatever's causing this (Nascent Elemental!) by and large seems to want to help people.

Wonder how long that will last once they actually start interacting with Humanity...

"That's mighty strange. But why come to me? Ah'm just a businessman."

"Two reasons. Firstly, your remarkable facility for controlling technological devices. Secondly, the other AIs I know are magic-based or techno-organic. You're an upload, which means that if it's a magic thing you're more likely to be able to interact with it."

Read: No magic, just a case of brain-scan running on entirely conventional hardware... At least, in this universe.

"Like a canary interacts with mine gas."

"That's not quite how I was.. thinking about it. If there's some sort of elemental creature that actually wants something, or.. is trying to do something, we need someone who can speak its language."

Assuming they can work out some kind of communication protocol. After all, computers were notoriously hard to get to work together... At least, before the Internet came along and standardised things.

"Negotiatin' 's something ah can do. So y'all just want me to work mah not-magic touch on it, see if anyone's home, and that's it?"

"That's probably it. If I knew exactly what was happening, I wouldn't be trying to find out what's happening."

Well, that makes a lot of sense. Can't wait to see how badly it goes wrong. Unless Mr Zoat wants us to expect that and is feeling contrary.

(Murphy: "Okay, now you're just being disingenuous...")

"Sounds like the sorta thing a public-spirited artificial person like me oughta do."

"You haven't noticed anything strange yourself?"

I kind of prefer the term Synthetic-American... 'Artificial' has some awkward connotations...

"Everything in the office is hunky-dory, and if the fellahs workin' the wells spotted anything they ain't referred it upwards. Ah'll send a message 'round, see what shakes lose."

"I'd appreciate it. And you, personally?"

To be fair, though, most of the machinery involved in oil drilling is only able to do one thing, and already do it as best they can...

He frowns. "Had some mighty strange dreams lately. But hell, ah'm a machine thinks he's a man. Shouldn't even be able to dream in the first place, and there ain't exactly a standard for 'normal' when you're me. Ah. But there's something that's been bothering me something chronic for a while now, and I was hoping you could put mah mind at ease. 'fore I do something canary-like."

"I'll do my best. What's the problem?"

Ah, the strange philosophical conundrums of synthetic consciousnesses...

"Earl Dukeston the First didn't want to meet his maker ahead of time. That's why he had me built. But he knew he'd be meeting him eventually. He was a Baptist Christian, a regular church-goer. Until he couldn't physically make the no any more, anyhow. Ah've got as many ah his memories as they could load onto me, but I'm not him."

I nod. "That's my understanding; Earl Dukeston the First is now dead."

Which is somewhat different to the original version, who was a 'brain in a bottle' scenario. Still, the change gives us Earl here, so...

"So he didn't change the date ah his meeting with his maker at all, did he?"

"Not significantly. Though having been to the Silver City and having definitely not had an encounter with the godhead, I'm not sure that's exactly how it works anyway."

He may well not have qualified for full entry into the Pearly Gates... Though that doesn't mean he was hell-bound either... Probably got the 'plain' heaven...

"Howsabout me, then? Ah've been going to church. Ah believe just like he did, and the law says ah'm a person even if ah ain't exactly a man. Will ah go to Heaven, or the other place if'n ah don't measure up?"

"Zauriel's a better person to ask than me."

Good luck finding him though. I guess he generally hangs out near his sweetheart in what, San Francisco?

"If'n he had a postal address, ah'd have surely asked him."

"Ah. In that case, my understanding is 'no'. Even in mystically strong worlds, AIs struggle to gather the sort of arcane weight that organic creatures do. Both Red Tornado and Red Inferno were designed with the manipulation of magic as a part of their core function so they don't have that problem. You weren't."

On the other hand, it's probably easier for Earl to put off dying proper for a long time. Just keep upgrading and transferring into newer bodies. But then you run into the question of continuity of consciousness... Would him shutting down and transferring into a new body count as the same guy or a new one with the memories of the previous?

Argh, this is why people don't like to think about these things...

"Well. That's mighty disappointing. Is there any way to fix it?"

"Oh, sure. Did I ever show you my tattoos?"

"Can't say you did."

That's not an invitation to take your shirt off, OL. Let's not repeat that Zatanna moment, shall we? I'm also honestly not sure Earl would be able to perceive them if they were visible on the skin, what with his relatively minor mystical silhouette.

"Well, short version, a while ago I found myself in your position. I talked to some wizards, and after a while we managed to get it fixed. Since I couldn't grow a soul normally, we used a little magic to make me grow one artificially. I'm not exactly sure how it would work for you, but we can talk to some people and see what we can come up with."

"That'd be a weight off mah mind." He stands up, the same smile on his face. "Alright, ah'm in. Let's go have a powwow with the self starting machines."

Maybe taking a look at the structure of the Reds' core would help? After all, isn't the Morrow Construct still around somewhere? Perhaps he could offer some measure of expert insight.

I stand. "Let's. But I'm curious; what sort of dreams?"

"Ah already talked that one out with mah shrink. Like ah'm standing in a room surrounded by all kinds a' folks, but none of 'em can see or hear each other, an' ah can't talk neither." He shrugs. "Guess it just means ah need to get out and make more friends."

Gee, doesn't that sound significant...

"Do you dream that often?"

"A couple times, close together. Then once or twice more. Ain't like it's every night. If'n this ole' noggin of mine gets stuck in that sorta loop, I call the fellahs down in IT."

Who probably ask "Have you turned it off and back on again?" just out of habit...

"And you're making an effort to be more social, and they're not coming back?"

"That's about the size of it. Not every little thing's a major crisis. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know?"

And sometimes it's something else. I get the feeling something growing in the Dreaming was trying to drop some very vague hints...

"It's not practical to be suspicious of everything, anyway. What are your normal dreams like?"

"Ones and zeroes, my friend. Ones and zeroes."

So... No Electronic Sheep? ...Dammit!

Nearly made it all the way without making that joke!

Now that's quite the callback to earlier episodes. Earl first appeared in what, the first year of the story? And now he's playing a part in a technology-related plotline. This points more and more to an emergent Kingdom... I mean, the Earth's mystical sphere is surely a bit shaken up after the Sheeda invasion, after all. What better time for one to emerge from the Dreaming? And you know... The Metal isn't the only form an Elemental Kingdom of Technology could take...

RichardWhereat · Apr 12, 2021

Handlewithcare said:
He isn't dreaming of electric sheep?

No. He dreams of 01100101 01101100 01100101 01100011 01110100 01110010 01101001 01100011 00100000 01110011 01101000 01100101 01100101 01110000

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Heh. Whatever's causing this (Nascent Elemental!) by and large seems to want to help people. Wonder how long that will last once they actually start interacting with Humanity...

If it decides to kill us after watching that, then it is right to do so.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Unless Mr Zoat wants us to expect that and is feeling contrary.

This makes sense.

Chojin Patriarch said:
(Murphy: "Okay, now you're just being disingenuous...")

Chojin, it's getting harder to feel sympathy for you if you keep going to Murphy.

Chojin Patriarch said:
He may well not have qualified for full entry into the Pearly Gates... Though that doesn't mean he was hell-bound either... Probably got the 'plain' heaven...

Or Limbo.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Good luck finding him though. I guess he generally hangs out near his sweetheart in what, San Francisco?

He can contact some of his magician allies to tell him where he is.

Chojin Patriarch said:
That's not an invitation to take your shirt off, OL. Let's not repeat that Zatanna moment, shall we?

Dangit, this may have been OL starting a romantic relationship with a guy, and a robot at that.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I'm also honestly not sure Earl would be able to perceive them if they were visible on the skin, what with his relatively minor mystical silhouette.

The tattoos block magic and clarketech like rings, Earl may be able to view them.

Chojin Patriarch said:
After all, isn't the Morrow Construct still around somewhere?

He's with Tornado

Chojin Patriarch said:
Who probably ask "Have you turned it off and back on again?" just out of habit...

Hey, it works.

If it can free a mans penis then maybe it can also help with dreams.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And you know... The Metal isn't the only form an Elemental Kingdom of Technology could take...

But it was the most prominent in the comics and it was an interesting storyline.

Tzeentch · Apr 12, 2021

Funnily enough, I was reading one of the chapters of Gunnerkrigg Court where a robot gets a new body that it's mind grows into, titled "She Gave us An Ocean". I wonder if how much Earl's mind has been growing...

Old Knife · Apr 12, 2021

that dream sounds strangely familiar.
Like a room full of characters removed by authors out of existence about to be reintroduced into the narrative of the current timeline.

You aren't about to dump a while bunch of new/old guys on us are you Zoat?

Mr Zoat · Apr 12, 2021

Old Knife said:
that dream sounds strangely familiar.
Like a room full of characters removed by authors out of existence about to be reintroduced into the narrative of the current timeline.

You aren't about to dump a while bunch of new/old guys on us are you Zoat?

Limbo? I wasn't planning to.

SaltyWaffles · Apr 12, 2021

Can someone explain to me what "The Metal" actually is?

Assblaster5000 · Apr 12, 2021

SaltyWaffles said:
Can someone explain to me what "The Metal" actually is?

It's an Elemental Parliament like The Green (that thing Swamp Thing is connected to), except instead of being for plants it's tied to computers and machinery.

A comparison could be made to The Omnissiah and/or The Motive Force from 40k. Or Mekhane if you prefer SCP.

NightmareWarden · Apr 12, 2021

Guys I think The Metal is a red herring. It is too well known, for one, among fans.

Let's focus on something more compatible with this story like Kilg%re, Grid (as a backwards way to introduce Cyborg), or Robo-Octo-Ape.

There was also a villain from Alan's time, a spirit created from "mankind's endless radio waves" that threw robot bodies at super heroes and claimed to control all of technology, but I can't remember its name. Mr Zoat actually linked in one chapter, but I just can't recall.

theaceoffire · Apr 12, 2021

thebishop8 said:
I don't think we've seen this guy since episode 11, nearly 100 episodes ago.

... Only 100 episodes ago!?

I feel like this story is far longer than that.

Pinklestia · Apr 12, 2021

By Asian legends, anything over a century old, even rocks, might gain a soul or spirit on their own. If that something already thinks like a person is in theory much faster.

Unfortunately anything that has not got a religion, in this fanfic, defaults to Hell. In my DC stories, as they all have some DCAU influence, it defaults to Hades.

That's a problem as reincarnation in Hades is freaking difficult, yes Hades expands as needed but sooner or later is gonna hit the theorical limit. The place is already much bigger that Earth and while the handling of evil souls is more or less automated one of Hades reasons to invade the surface is that if he actually rules Earth, even if only symbolically, he can actually change the rules of how things work in Hades.

As it is; he can make personal choices but not change the basic rules, just like Zeus cannot legally take a thousand wives.

Is the result of the Titans not being completely dead and the Greek Gods refusing to eat them for extra power.

He would need the belief of many living people to change the system.

BlueMangoAdea · Apr 12, 2021

What was the reason for Earth's default afterlife being Hell? Was it ever mentioned?

Assblaster5000 · Apr 12, 2021

BlueMangoAdea said:
What was the reason for Earth's default afterlife being Hell? Was it ever mentioned?

If, and that's a big if here because of how long it's been, I'm remembering things correctly it's not so much that it's the default afterlife, just that the spared of Christianity (and all associated variants) made it far more likely that people would go there, because any act of religious note counts towards where you go when you die, which includes things like saying "What the hell?".

So because using sayings like that are so common in the modern world people are more likely to go to The Silver City or hell when they die.

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

BlueMangoAdea said:
What was the reason for Earth's default afterlife being Hell? Was it ever mentioned?

Assblaster5000 said:
If, and that's a big if here because of how long it's been, I'm remembering things correctly it's not so much that it's the default afterlife, just that the spared of Christianity (and all associated variants) made it far more likely that people would go there, because any act of religious note counts towards where you go when you die, which includes things like saying "What the hell?".

So because using sayings like that are so common in the modern world people are more likely to go to The Silver City or hell when they die.

I think it may be because The Source or Presence has a much greater degree of control over reality than gods spawned from the Dreaming, so they and any realm that are somehow connected to them get things that Dreaming spawned gods can't.

DrThoth · Apr 12, 2021

Most or all of the Western world (however you want to define that term) has a legacy of Christianity kind of baked into it, so even if someone from those places personally isn't Christian, it's a cultural norm that they'd be hard-pressed to avoid. The North Rhelasian guy that Paragon brought back via Lazarus pit didn't seem to be in any Abrahamic hell, he was just being tormented by his own ancestors in an afterlife presumably associated with Korean shamanism.

Part of the whole thing is thus the context of your upbringing, and even if people of Abrahamic faiths lose their faith and stop believing or practicing, unless they actively find another belief system, it's the one they'll be stuck in. I'm not sure what happens to people in Western societies like neopagans/Wiccans/etc. but hopefully they get to go to Otherworld or something. After all, Hades occasionally gets people closely tied to Greek history/culture show up in modern times (even before Paragon massively increased his workload).

I really would like an update where we see Thana preaching or giving a lecture, or maybe a religious debate, to see how her spread of Hellenism project is going.

jasonh23761 · Apr 12, 2021

Huh, a religious robot. I was not expecting that. Neat.

Darko · Apr 12, 2021

DrThoth said:
Most or all of the Western world (however you want to define that term) has a legacy of Christianity kind of baked into it, so even if someone from those places personally isn't Christian, it's a cultural norm that they'd be hard-pressed to avoid. The North Rhelasian guy that Paragon brought back via Lazarus pit didn't seem to be in any Abrahamic hell, he was just being tormented by his own ancestors in an afterlife presumably associated with Korean shamanism.

Part of the whole thing is thus the context of your upbringing, and even if people of Abrahamic faiths lose their faith and stop believing or practicing, unless they actively find another belief system, it's the one they'll be stuck in. I'm not sure what happens to people in Western societies like neopagans/Wiccans/etc. but hopefully they get to go to Otherworld or something. After all, Hades occasionally gets people closely tied to Greek history/culture show up in modern times (even before Paragon massively increased his workload).

I really would like an update where we see Thana preaching or giving a lecture, or maybe a religious debate, to see how her spread of Hellenism project is going.

Paul talked to an angel about this.

The angel said that they sometimes get neo pagans.

He explained that aside from just believing in pagan gods, the person also needs to participate in rituals and rites that offer worship to those gods.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Connoisseur.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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Versed in the lewd.

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If this is trash, then find me in the dumpster

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Connoisseur.

Versed in the lewd.

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Veteran Lurker

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Connoisseur.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

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Dedicated ragequitter

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I trust you know where the happy button is?

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Well worn.

Alive. For now.

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Connoisseur.

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Not too sore, are you?

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