With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

Yeah, the being every conquerer thing just doesnt workm especislly given that many had important childhoods as nobles with people who knew them. No way is Savage passing as a 19 year old Macedonian prince.

The only one that seems potentially plausible is Ghengis Khan who grew up from poverty. He easily could have slipped into that identity. And Darkseid could explain the collapse of that venture.

As for why he isnt god emperor? I imagine he tried. But that wont stop power hungry people, freedom fighters, etc. He could legit be god and people will still rebel against him. He seems to have learned, hence working behind the scenes in the modern day.

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Zoat apparently made it so that one of the historical figures Savage said he was was actually a lie and that he was just his equivalent of a Prime Minister or vizier.

It's possible that he also did something similar for his other roles, like making him present for those events, but not as the person he claimed he was.

And good point on why he wouldn't be able to conquer everything.

In Life Ore Death the author actually made it so that Savage did conqueror the world, or at least large portions of it, in the distant past, but due to various things, like the enemies you mentioned, as well as things like plagues, natural disasters, divine shenanigans, and even the Sheeda, his empires failed.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

You can't really have a war against one man. He has no supply lines, no allies and no plan. He just turns up and if you don't beat him right then he'll eat you and expand his army. On the other hand, if you kill him, that's it.

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Sounds like an interesting asymmetric game. Like chess, except one side starts with a full army, the other orange side starts with one king/queen, but any piece defeated by orange side becomes an orange unit, and no orange unit except the king can permanently leave the board. If defeated, they instead respawn in a space adjacent to the Orange King on oranges next turn.

 

[Idkusername]

Sounds like an interesting asymmetric game. Like chess, except one side starts with a full army, the other orange side starts with one king/queen, but any piece defeated by orange side becomes an orange unit, and no orange unit except the king can permanently leave the board. If defeated, they instead respawn in a space adjacent to the Orange King on oranges next turn.

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I loved the madhouse setting on the old Mac Chess game too.

 

[Cuchulin]

Yeah, the being every conquerer thing just doesnt workm especislly given that many had important childhoods as nobles with people who knew them. No way is Savage passing as a 19 year old Macedonian prince.
The only one that seems potentially plausible is Ghengis Khan who grew up from poverty. He easily could have slipped into that identity. And Darkseid could explain the collapse of that venture.
As for why he isnt god emperor? I imagine he tried. But that wont stop power hungry people, freedom fighters, etc. He could legit be god and people will still rebel against him. He seems to have learned, hence working behind the scenes in the modern day.

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Agreed, all that and how long it took him to return making major conquests. I mean CENTURIES past between the time of Alexander, Julius Caesar and Ghengis Khan. If he actually was any of those guys why didn't he reunite Alexanders empire a century or so after his death or rebuild the Western Roman Empire shortly after it fell? As for why he isn't god emperor? Imagine as a cannibal cave man he just isn't that good at being a Emperor when he isn't being a conqueror.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Double Space
Another Double Space.
"Simple then: establish a deliberative body...

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Thank you, corrected.

And if it's one seat per house, there's likely to be some arguments about who deserves to sit in it. Arguments that end up with people dead...

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Yes, it does have that advantage.

I'm assuming this should be 'superstitious,' since substitious means belief in something that's true and that's not what Alonzo is implying cargo cultists do.

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No, the two go together. If you were told that waving around a red flag would make a crate of food appear, you wouldn't believe it. Even if it turned out that the red flag was a standard sign to request aid and the food was teleported in. Alonzo is saying that even if the claim turned out in part to be true, he wouldn't believe it until he understood the mechanism.

Sounds like an interesting asymmetric game. Like chess, except one side starts with a full army, the other orange side starts with one king/queen, but any piece defeated by orange side becomes an orange unit, and no orange unit except the king can permanently leave the board. If defeated, they instead respawn in a space adjacent to the Orange King on oranges next turn.

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Some people play Total Warhammer like that. Give a fighty lord the Sword of Khaine and solo armies.

 

[Assblaster5000]

Some people play Total Warhammer like that. Give a fighty lord the Sword of Khaine and solo armies.

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Bring. Me. Battle.

Edit:This post has been enhanced with additional unending carnage. For Khorne!

 

[Sockmonkey]

He's a caveman,

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This right here. If you rule a small group, you can spend all day fucking, drinking, and beating people.
If you rule a country, you have to do shitloads of executive work, and try to work in the fucking, drinking, and beating whenever you have a free spot in your schedule.

 

[Mr Zoat]

20th August 2012
08:12 GMT

"Oh, is that all."

I can't help but sag slightly as Hinon studies the novel ring floating above her right hand.

"Not that interesting?"

"Aside from possibly implying that Guardian Meadlux was intending to have children, no. Do you want one like it in orange? I know you were used to having two rings."

"Children?"

"Yes? We were once what you would call 'standard pattern humanoids'. We customarily reproduced in the standard fashion. I myself remain perfectly capable of having children."

"You told me that you don't have children 'to give the rest of us a chance'."

"A slightly flippant but essentially accurate answer. But maltusian children are extremely energy-intensive to raise. With a human infant a human parent must worry about protecting it from the environment as it will die if it becomes too hot or too cold. Maltusian infants have the power of we adults but not our hard-won control. Or our experience."

I nod.

"I can see why that sort of power in the hands of a baby could be a problem. Particularly on a world where not everyone is as tough as you."

"Socially, the difference in experience was probably a more significant factor. Creating a crèche world would hardly be a great trial for us. We spoke of the vast difference in life experience between you and I?"

"Yes."

"If you sired a child, then within thirty years they would be nearly as old as you are now. And I imagine that you would expect them to be mentally more or less on your level by then. Humans tend to begin losing their faculties in their… Seventies?"

"It.. varies, but yes, at that age, without this ring, I would expect to be physically and mentally less capable."

"We never do. But our children are only as experienced as yours would be. Thirty or forty years is an easily bridgeable gulf. A million? A maltusian child born now would have more in common with you."

"Are.. you.. coming on to me?"

"No, but if I ever completely take leave of my senses, I may call upon your services as a childminder."

I grin.

"You know, I'm actually up for that. So… This ring: it's just the maltusian equivalent of stabilisers on a child's bike?"

"That's the base he was working from. The design which allows younger races like yours to use the glow grew from that, but it seems that he went back to the original and tried a different approach." She shakes her head and slips the ring into her robes. "There were perfectly good reasons why we didn't take this approach the first time around, but perhaps he thought that he could do a better job of it."

"You worked on the first power rings?"

"No, as I said, the first rings were made as tools for the education of our children. I worked on the adaptation of that technology, which became a good deal more important once the Manhunters proved themselves so unreliable."

"Who was it that programmed them again?"

She looks at me, mildly affronted.

"Don't look at me. The only part I played in that was to approve a trial run. If I'd been running the project, there would have been a Guardian on-site to monitor them."

"I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were personally at fault."

She looks away again.

"Don't mention it."

"I've always been a bit puzzled about how that happened. I mean, I don't always agree with the Guardians' decisions, but setting loose an army of robots without any monitoring, with programming that could lead them to conclude that killing every living thing in a Space Sector was a reasonable thing to do… That suggests incompetence, and that's not something I associate the Guardians with."

"I never got a straight answer either. The Guardians involved seemed to be… We don't really do bewildered, but the next best thing, about the whole issue."

"Other Guardians."

"Given that that was the day I left, I think I can reasonably exclude myself."

"Alright. So: the ring. Why did it make those Green Lanterns act up?"

"As you know, the Guardians elected to use the green light due to the fact that out of all of the colours it has the least effect on the mind of the user. 'Least' isn't the same as 'none'."

"Right, but in a normal Lantern it's barely noticeable."

"Thank you. It's nice that my efforts are appreciated. This ring rather does away with all of the safeties."

"Because why would children need those?"

"Maltusian children don't need the same sort of safeties that younger species do. A normal power ring uses its colour at several steps removed. The light itself, the Central Power Battery, the Personal Lantern and then finally the ring. Dealing with any of the lights directly exposes a mind to everything about that emotion, not merely that emotion as it exists in the user's mind."

"And that's what that ring does?"

"No, but it's closer to that than is a good idea for mortal Lanterns."

"How about for me?"

"Oh, you could certainly use it. I'm just not convinced that you would still be you afterwards. You recall what you were like while merged with the Ophidian?"

I frown.

"Yes, but I still knew the difference between our desires and the desires of the people around me."

"Do you want to forget that?"

"No, that sounds like a bad idea. I assume the stabiliser ring didn't have that functionality?"

"No, they predate our use of the glow. The similarity is more or less incidental."

"Would they work for someone else? Say, if Lantern Gardner wanted to bond with Ion without being overwhelmed?"

"Not… Exactly, though it could help him if Ion merely volunteered to augment him. Why?"

"Oh, just asking in case." I smile at her. "Thank you, Controller Hinon. I need to go and report to Dox."

 

[Darko]

A maltusian child born now would have more in common with you."

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So Paul is the equivalent of a Maltusian baby.

"Are.. you.. coming on to me?"

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Alan may be disappointed.

loose a army of robots

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'an army'

same sort of safties that younger species do.

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'safeties'

Is the next episode paragon or renegade focused?

 

[Handlewithcare]

Aww, how cute :3

Baby's First Mind Altering, Planet Destroying Weapon


"You don't know him? He's the most powerful member of the Maltusian government!"

"What? But he isn't Maltusian?"

"No, he is their babysitter whenever they need a break. They all do whatever he wants!"

 

[Sockmonkey]

Sooo, is he thinking of giving that ring to Alan to complete his apotheosis?

 

[Darko]

20th August 2012
08:12 GMT

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Zoat, in the spoiler box page this chapter has 19th August above it.

Either change the date on this chapter or the one in the spoiler box page.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat, in the spoiler box page this chapter has 19th August above it.

Either change the date on this chapter or the one in the spoiler box page.

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'an army'
'safeties'

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Thank you, corrected.

Is the next episode paragon or renegade focused?

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The focus of the next episode is the SI.

 

[Metabolicjosh]

So, are you using the lore from Blackest Night and Brightest Day and the characters in this scene just don't know about it, or is our lovely lady friend lying to us about the origin of light, lanterns, rings and the technology thereof?

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

20th August 2012
08:12 GMT

"Oh, is that all."

I can't help but sag slightly as Hinon studies the novel ring floating above her right hand.

Click to shrink...

Well, that's anti-climactic. But then, she's tied directly to Spectrum energies. A ring is not as powerful as she is in its' manipulation. But for the mundane mortals of the universe, it's still a step up...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Not that interesting?"

"Aside from possibly implying that Guardian Meadlux was intending to have children, no. Do you want one like it in orange? I know you were used to having two rings."

Click to shrink...

Given the Ring has the 'charge ∞' trait, I would be hard pressed to refuse. The extra charge would be useful, I guess. On the other hand, if it requires the same level of mental realignment, regardless of color...

"Children?"

"Yes? We were once what you would call 'standard pattern humanoids'. We customarily reproduced in the standard fashion. I myself remain perfectly capable of having children."

Click to shrink...

...Please, that's not really an image I want. God, could you imagine her with pregnancy munchies, or mood swings?

"You told me that you don't have children 'to give the rest of us a chance'."

"A slightly flippant but essentially accurate answer. But maltusian children are extremely energy-intensive to raise. With a human infant a human parent must worry about protecting it from the environment as it will die if it becomes too hot or too cold. Maltusian infants have the power of we adults but not our hard-won control. Or our experience."

Click to shrink...

So it becomes more about protecting the environment from the children. Talk about an 'enfant terrible'... A tantrum might lay waste to a whole planet, if not an entire system...

I nod.

"I can see why that sort of power in the hands of a baby could be a problem. Particularly on a world where not everyone is as tough as you."

Click to shrink...

Yes, there're few races that can make kryptonians look squishy... But maltusians are pretty high on, if not at the top of, that list...

"Socially, the difference in experience was probably a more significant factor. Creating a crèche world would hardly be a great trial for us. We spoke of the vast difference in life experience between you and I?"

"Yes."

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A gulf of difference closer in size to the Pacific Ocean, if you will...

"If you sired a child, then within thirty years they would be nearly as old as you are now. And I imagine that you would expect them to be mentally more or less on your level by then. Humans tend to begin losing their faculties in their… Seventies?"

"It.. varies, but yes, at that age, without this ring, I would expect to be physically and mentally less capable."

Click to shrink...

And that assuming you haven't been rattling your faculties with chemical entertainments... An Orange Ring being everything but chemical...

"We never do. But our children are only as experienced as yours would be. Thirty or forty years is an easily bridgeable gulf. A million? A maltusian child born now would have more in common with you."

"Are.. you.. coming on to me?"

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...That's what you take away from that? Goddammit, OL. She basically called you a toddler! You are like a baby to her. A quirky, trouble-prone baby that thankfully managed to achieve toilet-training. AKA Enlightenment.

"No, but if I ever completely take leave of my senses, I may call upon your services as a childminder."

I grin.

"You know, I'm actually up for that. So… This ring: it's just the maltusian equivalent of stabilisers on a child's bike?"

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And if it's that much stronger than a regular Ring... What does that say about them?

"That's the base he was working from. The design which allows younger races like yours to use the glow grew from that, but it seems that he went back to the original and tried a different approach." She shakes her head and slips the ring into her robes. "There were perfectly good reasons why we didn't take this approach the first time around, but perhaps he thought that he could do a better job of it."

"You worked on the first power rings?"

Click to shrink...

So... Meadlux was trying to reinvent the wheel? Or rather, the training wheel? ...Blade said it best: "There's always some motherfucker trying'a ice-skate uphill."

"No, as I said, the first rings were made as tools for the education of our children. I worked on the adaptation of that technology, which became a good deal more important once the Manhunters proved themselves so unreliable."

"Who was it that programmed them again?"

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Krona, if my memory serves me correctly. No point razzing Hinon over it.

She looks at me, mildly affronted.

"Don't look at me. The only part I played in that was to approve a trial run. If I'd been running the project, there would have been a Guardian on-site to monitor them."

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And not the one who oversaw the project. That would just scream of corrupted experimental results.

"I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were personally at fault."

She looks away again.

"Don't mention it."

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No, seriously, don't... I rather suspect it's something of a sore point for her.

"I've always been a bit puzzled about how that happened. I mean, I don't always agree with the Guardians' decisions, but setting loose a army of robots without any monitoring, with programming that could lead them to conclude that killing every living things in a Space Sector was a reasonable thing to do… That suggests incompetence, and that's not something I associate the Guardians with."

"I never got a straight answer either. The Guardians involved seemed to be… We don't really do bewildered, but the next best thing, about the whole issue."

Click to shrink...

Evidently someone forgot to set logical bounds on their adaptive AI. You're lucky they only decided, "If crime is committed by the living, then all life must be judged at fault." The last time I saw that logic, it resulted in Judge Death and friends.

"Other Guardians."

"Give that that was the day I left, I think I can reasonably exclude myself."

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Man, that must have been one hell of a day in the Guardians' chambers...

"Alright. So: the ring. Why did it make those Green Lanterns act up?"

"As you know, the Guardians elected to use the green light due to the fact that out of all of the colours it has the least effect on the mind of the user. 'Least' isn't the same as 'none'."

Click to shrink...

Yes, we've noticed how Greenies tend to be unbending and rigidly stubborn, to stupid extents...

"Right, but in a normal Lantern it's barely noticeable."

"Thank you. It's nice that my efforts are appreciated. This ring rather does away with all of the safties."

Click to shrink...

Ah, so my analogy of a firehose compared to a squirt-gun is more apt than I thought. Unfortunately, those safeties would be there for a reason, eh?

"Because why would children need those?"

"Maltusian children don't need the same sort of safties that younger species do. A normal power ring uses its colour at several steps removed. The light itself, the Central Power Battery, the Personal Lantern and then finally the ring. Dealing with any of the lights directly exposes a mind to everything about that emotion, not merely that emotion as it exists in the user's mind."

Click to shrink...

And minds less adapted to that level of exposure than a maltusian tend to break under the stress? At least that helps to remind us why Orange Lanterns aren't so 'Mine-MINE-MINE!" crazy as Larfleeze was. They're getting it filtered through more layers than the 'straight from the battery' treatment he did.
Like, say, Orange Juice. Lanterns are getting their stuff strained and sweetened. Larfleeze was getting it straight from the juicer, gristle, pulp and all

"And that's what that ring does?"

"No, but it's closer to that than is a good idea for mortal Lanterns."

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Less filtered, and thus more stressful on the mental weak-points of the wearer. And the Lanterns whole stole them broke.

"How about for me?"

"Oh, you could certainly use it. I'm just not convinced that you would still be you afterwards. You recall what you were like while merged with the Ophidian?"

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To continue the analogy, OL-Phidian was eating the oranges. Whole. I don't think that's an improvement...

I frown.

"Yes, but I still knew the difference between our desires and the desires of the people around me."

Click to shrink...

Somethign you've been havign a little trouble with after your last death. Maybe spend a bit of time communing with Best Snek?

"Do you want to forget that?"

"No, that sounds like a bad idea. I assume the stabiliser ring didn't have that functionality?"

Click to shrink...

Why would a maltusian child need that? Their minds are built to control the Spectrum. It only takes a matter of time to learn self-control...

"No, they predate our use of the glow. The similarity is more or less incidental."

"Would they work for someone else? Say, if Lantern Gardner wanted to bond with Ion without being overwhelmed?"

Click to shrink...

...OL, No. Do not go fiddling with a good thing. Guy is fine as he is.

"Not… Exactly, though it could help him if Ion merely volunteered to augment him. Why?"

"Oh, just asking in case." I smile at her. "Thank you, Controller Hinon. I need to go and report to Dox."

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So, don't mind any yelling in the next couple of hours. Got you.

A fine summation of 'experimental rings bad for little mortals'. And some nice insight into Maltusian developmental logistics, and the early history of the Guardians. How much of it is stuff Hinon dumbed down for OL, and thus the audience, to understand is debatable... Still, it looks like things are all wrapped up for the Yuna mission, bar Dox's shouting. Or at least passive-aggressive grumping.

---

"Give that that was the day I left...

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"Given that that was the day I left...

 

[Darko]

That's what you take away from that?

Click to shrink...

Did you really expect anything different from Paul?

thankfully managed to achieve toilet-training. AKA Enlightenment.

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Now if only he learned other skills.

So it becomes more about protecting the environment from the children. Talk about an 'enfant terrible'... A tantrum might lay waste to a whole planet, if not an entire system...

Click to shrink...

And banishing a lot of people to a cornfield.

Yes, we've noticed how Greenies tend to be unbending and rigidly stubborn, to stupid extents...

Click to shrink...

Though that could also be how they were before they got the ring, or just started becoming more like that by themselves without influence from the Green Light, because it helped them use their rings better.

...OL, No. Do not go fiddling with a good thing. Guy is fine as he is.

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It hasn't stopped him before.

 

[Radiant Knight]

So, are you using the lore from Blackest Night and Brightest Day and the characters in this scene just don't know about it, or is our lovely lady friend lying to us about the origin of light, lanterns, rings and the technology thereof?

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We've been getting a lot of really old lore lately, so it's likely that that's taking precedence. I suspect that at this point Zoat's seething dislike towards Post-Flashpoint material probably means that the closer one gets to flashpoint, the less 'canon' any given material is.

Even though DC had two more crisis/timeline resets since then, even going so far as to undo Flashpoint's major changes, they're still ruining Green Lantern. Just... ugh. There's some neat ideas in there, but also a lot of stupid. Maybe the new canon will be better now that Golden/Silver age is in mainline continuity again, but I doubt it.

 

[Vaermina]

20th August 2012
08:12 GMT

Click to shrink...

Given that's not how/why the rings were created in any continuity the real question this chapter is whether Hinon was lying to paragon or whether Zoat decided to rewrite everything for no real reason.

 

[Ngamer11]

"Would they work for someone else? Say, if Lantern Gardner wanted to bond with Ion without being overwhelmed?"

"Not… Exactly, though it could help him if Ion merely volunteered to augment him. Why?"

"Oh, just asking in case." I smile at her. "Thank you, Controller Hinon. I need to go and report to Dox."

Click to shrink...

I'm curious on whether or not Paul actually has a plan for that ring, which is why he asked that in the first place. Maybe he can have Alan dual wield, since he's already got a green center inside his blue shell?

 

[The Unaligned Player]

Curious about what the effects of having all seven standard flavors of Malthusian Child Rings would be, because "You are the Life Entity." Is my unbaked thought.

 

[Mr Zoat]

So, are you using the lore from Blackest Night and Brightest Day and the characters in this scene just don't know about it, or is our lovely lady friend lying to us about the origin of light, lanterns, rings and the technology thereof?

Click to shrink...

I'm not using the stupid First Lantern version of Volthoom, if that's what you're referring to.

Given the Ring has the 'charge ∞' trait, I would be hard pressed to refuse. On the other hand, if it requires the same level of mental realignment, regardless of color...

Click to shrink...

I don't believe that's been established in this story.

"Given that that was the day I left...

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

I don't believe that's been established in this story.

Click to shrink...

Huh. Must have gotten the wrong impression from earlier comments (Found it: Webxro mentioned a 'Ring which didn't need charging' after chapter 15 that went uncommented on and I leapt on that and the desirability... Mea Culpa. I'll go back and edit my assumptions in a bit...) Still, I'm sure there's some benefits for an Orange Ring of its style... Some minor buff Hinon didn't care to mention...

 

[Assblaster5000]

To continue the analogy, OL-Phidian was eating the oranges. Whole. I don't think that's an improvement...

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I ate a mini-orange whole once. I can confirm it's very much so not an improvement to fresh juice.

I... I feel like that says more about me than anything.

Don't do stupid, kids.

Edit:I really am just that stupid, huh? Fixed punctuation.

 

[Metabolicjosh]

... don't do stupid, kids. I made a stupid comment that had its entire meaning changed because I quoted your statement and it doesn't have a comma in it.

 

[Assblaster5000]

... don't do stupid, kids. I made a stupid comment that had its entire meaning changed because I quoted your statement and it doesn't have a comma in it.

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Spoiler: Just proving my own point.

 

[Steelplaza]

We all know the real reason behind the Manhunters is comic books, but if I wanted to rationalize them in this story here's an idea.

In this story Zoat has occasionally emphasized that "Guardians of the Universe" is a puffed-up and entirely inaccurate title. His version of the Guardians the Green Lantern Corps only patrol the local galaxy. I get that. Given the mind-bogglingly large size of the universe, if you tried to split it up 3600 ways each Lantern would be patrolling galaxies like grains of sand. However, the title "Guardians of the Universe" shows the scope of their ambitions, doesn't it? They would like to patrol the universe, but it's impossible.... so long as you're depending on an organization that has to be personally run by a handful of Guardians and reports back to them. Thus the emphasis on the Manhunters as independent. A self-regulating, self-perpetuating swarm of aggressively hegemonizing Justice Machines to swarm the Universe. Talk about dreaming big.

 

[Pinklestia]

The fact the thing STILL didn't have a remote shutdown... no wonder the Guardians would give any decent engineer ulcers.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The fact the thing STILL didn't have a remote shutdown... no wonder the Guardians would give any decent engineer ulcers.

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The rings were stolen out of a laboratory on Oa. They were never meant to be released into the wild.

 

[DrThoth]

The rings were stolen out of a laboratory on Oa. They were never meant to be released into the wild.

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I forget, do we know how they were stolen from Oa in the first place? I think the Free Lancers just got the ring from that gone-evil/crazy Green Lantern, right?

The existence of someone both capable of breaching security on Oa and actively willing to do so seems like a major issue. The first crack-y idea that popped into my head were Indigo Lanterns, since it's been a while since we've seen them.

 

[Stsword]

In this story Zoat has occasionally emphasized that "Guardians of the Universe" is a puffed-up and entirely inaccurate title. His version of the Guardians the Green Lantern Corps only patrol the local galaxy.

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Wrong.

From the FAQ that nobody reads including Zoat-

"All parts of the galaxy not specifically excluded by treaty have Lanterns assigned to them, as well as parts of intergalactic space and good chunks of the two nearest galaxies. Within a Sector forty-fifty inhabited worlds is the norm. Outside this area a major problem may well receive the attention of an Honour Guard strike force, with perhaps a garrison if the problem looks to be ongoing. The Corps is slowly expanding (Rot Lop Fan's homeworld is a highly radioactive place in intergalactic space) but the bigger it gets the harder it is to run and there aren't more Guardians to whom the existing ones can pass on responsibility."

So their territory extends into three galaxies and the intergalactic space between them.