With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[RichardWhereat]

I'm curious, who would win in a fights? Celeste (and/or Luna) or Darkseid?

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Darkseid. Darkseid would win.

 

[Darko]

So... Real!Grayven is coming to attack Renegade, and he's giving a lecture in Ponyland?

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He either wants to spend some time with Luna before he fights Grayven and decided to cause some panic while doing it, because he's renegade so of course he would.

It may take Grayven time to assemble his force for an attack, so renegade may have time to do some other things, and this may have been scheduled even before he found out Grayven was going to attack him and he just didn't want to delay it.

Is Renegade planning on bringing Real!Grayven to Ponyland and... eat/destroy/something his Cutie Mark?

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Equestria has the Elements of Harmony, so renegade may be interested in using them to beat Grayven.

I mean, Ponies are all gods, with talents (domains), it's just that alicorns are the powerful ones.

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Ponies aren't gods.

This is the only way my brain can understand why there's a Ponyland lecture going on, and I suspect Luna will give Renegade a stern talking to about causing panic.

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You may be right about the talking to.

I'm curious, who would win in a fights? Celeste (and/or Luna) or Darkseid?

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Darkseid.

Renegade has been shown as being roughly equal, and maybe a bit stronger, than Celestia and Luna, and Darkseid is much more powerful than renegade, so Darkseid would probably win.

Not sure how he would fare if they use the Elements on him, though.

 

[Queshire]

Cool, so I expect Grayven's done all the proper science beforehand? Performed a study that confirms that the cutie marks produced by a previously thought to be extinct disease are the same as natural ones instead of basing it off of word of mouth related to a single incident? Tested the hypothesis that ponies with cutie marks are tastier prior to submitting it to what passes for Equestria's scientific community beforehand?

'Cause, ya know, not doing all that would make this whole thing bad science.

 

[Akshka]

Maybe that makes them all the more tasty."

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[Darko]

Cool, so I expect Grayven's done all the proper science beforehand? Performed a study that confirms that the cutie marks produced by a previously thought to be extinct disease are the same as natural ones instead of basing it off of word of mouth related to a single incident? Tested the hypothesis that ponies with cutie marks are tastier prior to submitting it to what passes for Equestria's scientific community beforehand?

'Cause, ya know, not doing all that would make this whole thing bad science.

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Well renegades not a scientist, so not doing scientific things is not that weird.

And Sunset, an expert in magic, seems to think his theory is pointless.

 

[Mr Zoat]

'It didn't
'the bulky'
'signalling'

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Thank you, corrected.

This is the only way my brain can understand why there's a Ponyland lecture going on, and I suspect Luna will give Renegade a stern talking to about causing panic.

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Because he scheduled it in advance, and refuses to duck out.

Cool, so I expect Grayven's done all the proper science beforehand? Performed a study that confirms that the cutie marks produced by a previously thought to be extinct disease are the same as natural ones instead of basing it off of word of mouth related to a single incident? Tested the hypothesis that ponies with cutie marks are tastier prior to submitting it to what passes for Equestria's scientific community beforehand?

'Cause, ya know, not doing all that would make this whole thing bad science.

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It's not his intent to prove that. It's his intent to raise a possibility that ponies aren't considering.

 

[Queshire]

Thank you, corrected.

Because he scheduled it in advance, and refuses to duck out.

It's not his intent to prove that. It's his intent to raise a possibility that ponies aren't considering.

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Sure. Let me raise another possibility that people aren't considering. What if, and hear me out here, aliens built the pyramids.

 

[Vaermina]

Cool, so I expect Grayven's done all the proper science beforehand? Performed a study that confirms that the cutie marks produced by a previously thought to be extinct disease are the same as natural ones instead of basing it off of word of mouth related to a single incident? Tested the hypothesis that ponies with cutie marks are tastier prior to submitting it to what passes for Equestria's scientific community beforehand?

'Cause, ya know, not doing all that would make this whole thing bad science.

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I think he's doing it just to cause massive amounts of fear and power up his ring before he tries to take on the other Grayven conveniently forgetting that the other Grayven can just nope his rings with a source battle.

 

[Queshire]

I think he's doing it just to cause massive amounts of fear and power up his ring before he tries to take on the other Grayven conveniently forgetting that the other Grayven can just nope his rings with a source battle.

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That's fair.

 

[Handlewithcare]

I think it's simpler than that.

All ponies are locked in a magical group mind, the Harmony.

It causes them to spontaneously know song lyrics, the Tree of Harmony and the Map are manifestations of it's will.

It also governs Cutie Marks, making sure society has it's needed share of teachers, construction workers, administrators...

And magic is always associated with symbols, runes etc.

Cutie Marks are just "Harmony magic runes" imprinted on bodies

 

[Vice Xarno]

Huh you know when is this because if Starlgiht hears this in full she would go, "Huh, that makes a bit too much sense." When in regards to the Vulnerability that wasn't there in regards to cutie marks considering how when she stole the Cutie Mark she didn't just steal the specific talent but it seemed like she took the ability to be more than mediocre in anything, she took Talent itself.

with that in Mind yeah Cutie Marks are just points of vulnerability for ponies

 

[PrinceJonathan]

So, Grayven's just gone back to his habit of terrifying people, for fun.

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He could be doing this to super charge his Yellow Ring.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

23rd August 2012
20:02 GMT -7

I look into the audience as I trot out onto the stage. Full to overflowing, which is a little surprising given the topic under discussion. And the fact that… Well, ponies know that I'm involved with the innovations in their military, the recent resurgence of Earth Pony magic and… With their princess, but without modern media it's a little hard to work out exactly how much of an awareness there is of me in pony society. Or… Anything, really. News travels slow, and unlike Britain at an equivalent level of technology their print media is… Basic.

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It's true, Equestrian society is rather.. scattershot in their technological development. Though I suspect a lot of that is because of a lack of communication, to some degree. Sure, books might travel, but understanding their contents isn't always easy, and some things just don't work too well in printed form...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

But at least there's a microphone. I step up to it and make eye contact with a cross section of the audience.

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Another example of their technological mish-mash. I presume it's for a loudspeaker. But have they not thought of learning ways to record things?

"Heresy. When I first chose that as the title of this lecture, I wasn't sure how familiar everyone would be with the pony word for the concept. In fact, in your language it doesn't have the same connotations as it does in mine at all. Where I'm from, it is most commonly applied to heterodox religious beliefs, rather than to divergent beliefs in general. And of course, ponies are… Herd animals. I didn't seem entirely impossible to me that there flat out wasn't a single word for it."

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Oh, this is going to be interesting, in every sense of the word.

I make eye contact with Sunset who's here under an illusion as her pre-ascension self, alongside Twilight Sparkle. Luna's doing something similar, though she's picked a less recognisable face.

"But there is, and here we are. And before I reveal my particular heresy to you, let's establish a few points of commonality."

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Heh. Establishing a common ground floor for the ideas. Good move. I don't doubt a lot of ponies barely even know the theory behind a lot of these things.

"Every pony is born with a special talent. The newborn foal will likely not be aware of it, or.. really, even be aware of anything very much. But it's there, and by the time they reach adolescence they will most likely both know what it is and have a-"

I half-turn and toss my head back towards my own haunch stamp.

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Except for those rare few who take a long-flank time to find what they do. We have examples of that in canon, after all.

"-colourful mark related to it on their bottom. In older pony societies that marked the point at which a pony would be considered a young adult rather than a child; when they might enter an apprenticeship or trade school rather than continue participating in general education. That's not the case now, as it's generally accepted that ponies need a wider range of education just to function is an increasing complex society, but getting a cutie mark is still considered a major life event. At the last census a full ninety two percent of ponies in employment reported that they worked professionally in areas relating to their special talents, with most of the rest being in temporary work or in associated fields."

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Which certainly suggest things about them that some might be ready to hear. And what of those who come to Equestria from elsewhere? Of ponies from the ancestral herdlands, or those from places like Saddle Arabia? Do they have cutie marks? Remember, it's not the planet, it's merely one nation on that planet... And what do other races think on the Ponies' markings?

"I don't think I've said anything particularly contentious so far. Have I?"

A few head-shakes.

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Hold on to your horseshoes, folks, he's just getting started.

"But let's look at it again. All ponies have special talents."

I pause for effect.

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Heh. Ever the showman, eh, Grayven?

"All ponies. Not just ponies who have gained their cutie marks. All ponies. That newborn foal has a special talent just as much as each of you does. You're more aware of yours, you've achieved more in your field… But the talent is still there. Indeed, most reports on the subject state that in many cases the ponies closest to a pre-mark pony have a pretty good idea what sort of mark they'll develop well before they finally manifest it. It's true in some cases a mark appears the first time a young pony is exposed to a particular idea and something clicks in their head at once… But more frequently the manifestation involves a moment of profound realisation of something that's been there all along. Getting over.. something that's stopped them fully engaging with their talent."

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Sometimes explosively so. Usually when that talent is something powerful.

"All ponies have special talents. Not all ponies have cutie marks. A special talent is a prerequisite for having a cutie mark. A cutie mark is not a prerequisite for having a special talent."

And now the pony-in-the-headlights stares.

But not from Sunset, who rolls her eyes.

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Well, he'd have run this past her. And she doesn't hold much truck with the 'common wisdom', does she?

"So. Where does the cutie mark come from? I'm an outsider to Equestrian society, but I assumed that when I had the opportunity to review the literature there would be some sort of answer. Perhaps not a precise explanation of why exact images form at the moment of revelation, but at least a broad understanding of the underlying mechanism. But there isn't. Talents themselves are reasonably well understood; the increase in the rate at which ponies gain skills in mark-related areas compared to 'off-mark' areas has been studied numerous times. More cutting-edge studies have even tried using modern brainwave reading equipment to see if the pony brain registers activities relating to the pony's special talent differently to other activities, though so far the bulk nature of the headsets has stymied those efforts."

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...Brainwave-reading... In a country that still considers steam trains to be fancy and new in some places? God damn, this inconsistent technology madness...

"Cutie marks don't grant special talents. So what does? The moment of revelation? No. Quite aside from the fact that people suddenly realise or remember things all of the time without developing body art to go along with it, not all ponies recognise their special talent in that way, and… They still get marks. So that leaves us with… What? Realisation relating to a special talent?" I shake my head. "I doubt it. Who hasn't at some point picked up something written by a pony with a talent similar to our own, that we might learn something of ourselves? And read something and found ourselves saying something along the lines of 'Of course! It's so obvious!'."

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Gee, it's almost like there's some outside force making decisions based on marketability and kid appeal.

Other than me, of course.

"That doesn't grant additional body art, either."

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...Don't give the outside force ideas, Grayven!

"So what does? What other phenomena causes pictures to appear of pony bodies? Well, tattoos, obviously, though those tend not to show up well under pony fur, and… Aren't exactly popular. The only other example that I'm aware of is the Cutie Pox. Thought to be an extinct disease, it was recently discovered to be the result of consuming a particular plant with powerful alchemical properties. The afflicted pony manifested sixteen cutie marks simultaneously, along with the associated special talents. And according to their family, none of the cutie marks related to things they have any skill in before the condition took hold, and none of them remained after the condition was cured."

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Not mentioning any names, of course. *Cough*Apples*Cough*. And boy, doesn't that have all manner of implications, don't it?

"Let that sink in for a moment. A pony had cutie marks related to a talent they weren't born with. Cutie marks which took those talents with them when they vanished."

Mouths are hanging open, and a pony in the third row has his forehooves wrapped around his head, shaking in existential dread.

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Let me take a guess at what that one's thinking: "Oh Celestia, what? I've spent my whole life studying this! It's my goddamn cutie mark, for Celestia's sake! How did I not know this?!"

"So. What purpose do cutie marks serve? It isn't to give ponies talents. Could it be social signalling, showing other ponies where your skills lie? Possibly, except for the fact that a good many cutie marks are fairly abstract. At a glance, would you associate a flower with teaching, or a sparkling jewel with dress-making? Probably not. Do they signal age? No. Cutie marks manifest between the ages of four and fourteen, too wide a difference for that to make sense."

"So if they don't have any function in the process of having a talent, that one talent everypony is born with, and they don't have a signalling function, what are they for? And what would happen if they weren't there?"

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...Cue existential breakdowns.

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.""

Head-grabber loses his nerve completely and dashes from the lecture theatre.

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There you go. He's off to rethink his life and everything he thought he knew... Or get very, very drunk. Not that the two acts are exclusive... In Vino Veritas, and all that.

"A pony has their moment of realisation, and nothing appears on their haunches. By definition, they're aware of their talent, but there's nothing signally that to others… Other than their skill at whatever it is that their talent lies in. Since other ponies are tuned to notice things like that, it would be detected reasonably quickly… But since marks can be so abstract and often only have meaning to the pony whose mark it is, recognising exactly what the skill lies in isn't all that easy anyway. So… No useful purpose."

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Indeed, I bet there are many books about 'what your cutie mark means', and the symbology therein. Like the stars in Twilight and Sunset's own marks, said to represent magic.

"So this is my heresy: cutie marks are useless. Worthless. Worse than worthless, because if the unnatural marks created by Cutie Pox are in fact representative, then that means that losing a mark results in the loss of a talent. If true, that means that getting a mark adds a point of vulnerability which did not exist before."

"But then… Why do they exist? Certainly, there are no adult ponies without cutie marks. Medical literature seems to indicate that not only is this true now, but has been true throughout pony history. How could such a mechanism arise if it does not serve a useful purpose?"

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And right now, the ponies listening are feeling like 'cosmic horror' protagonists... Seeing their world descend into madness and impossibility...

"Well. Perhaps it is useful. Just not for the pony. If it turns out that the internal magics of a pony who has realised their talent operate differently to the internal magics of ponies without marks…"

"Maybe that makes them all the more tasty."

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"Well done, Corpsman. It's been some time since I've seen such an impressive display of panicking so many with just a few words."

There's a moment of silence as my audience considers this, coming to terms with the implication.

And then the room erupts in total pandemonium.

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I'm reminded of the scene with Van Helsing performing an autopsy in 'Dracula: Dead and Loving It' where he's intentionally trying to make his students puke, faint, flee or any combination thereof.
"Oh, well done, professor! A perfect score!"
"I've still got it!"

Oh, that's going to make for some trouble down the line. I can't help but imagine Celestia face-hoofing at his pronouncements. He's been planning this speech for how long now? At least he got to deliver it before Grayven-16r showed up. And there's a subtle hint in there of the danger of cutie-mark-affecting spells, such as Starswirl's last spell, or Starlight Glimmer's trick.

 

[Agumentic]

'Cause, ya know, not doing all that would make this whole thing bad science.

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Grayven doesn't strike me as someone who is interested in doing good science, he is more into terrifying people into doing good science for him.

 

[Darko]

Brainwave-reading... In a country that still considers steam trains to be fancy and new in some places? God damn, this inconsistent technology madness...

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I think either Twilight or Sunset once used a machine like that.

Gee, it's almost like there's some outside force making decisions based on marketability and kid appeal.

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In the words of Klaus from American Dad.

"Damn you Hasbro!''

I'm reminded of the scene with Van Helsing performing an autopsy in 'Dracula: Dead and Loving It' where he's intentionally trying to make his students puke, faint, flee or any combination thereof.
"Oh, well done, professor! A perfect score!"
"I've still got it!"

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I think this is how Cranius would teach.

 

[moralrelativity]

"Maybe that makes them all the more tasty."

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Is he trying to charge his yellow ring to 100%?

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Is he trying to charge his yellow ring to 100%?

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Yellow rings don't get charged with ambient fear. They get more powerful, but no charge.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Huh you know when is this because if Starlgiht hears this in full she would go, "Huh, that makes a bit too much sense." When in regards to the Vulnerability that wasn't there in regards to cutie marks considering how when she stole the Cutie Mark she didn't just steal the specific talent but it seemed like she took the ability to be more than mediocre in anything, she took Talent itself.

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While Starlight did steal the cutie marks of the main characters, she didn't steal the marks of the other inhabitants of the town. For whatever reason, they volunteered.

He could be doing this to super charge his Yellow Ring.

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That's far better than the reason I came up with.

 

[Sockmonkey]

What he's saying is less scary when you realize that it's pointing out that a mark functions more like a status readout than an invoking rune.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

What he's saying is less scary when you realize that it's pointing out that a mark functions more like a status readout than an invoking rune.

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That's not the scary part. The scary part is that the loss of the mark also means the loss of associated talent, meaning that the marks are vulnerabilities.

Speaking of which, does removing the mark in a mundane way(cut up that patch of skin, etc) affect a pony's talent?

 

[Vice Xarno]

While Starlight did steal the cutie marks of the main characters, she didn't steal the marks of the other inhabitants of the town. For whatever reason, they volunteered.

That's far better than the reason I came up with.

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Yes volunteered but that still keeps my point when she did it it removed their ability to not be mediocre even at things that weren't their special talent, say someone's special talent was athletics but they were a pretty good cook too, and once the Mark was stolen no longer were they athletes but any food they made form then on was always bland.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Yes volunteered but that still keeps my point when she did it it removed their ability to not be mediocre even at things that weren't their special talent, say someone's special talent was athletics but they were a pretty good cook too, and once the Mark was stolen no longer were they athletes but any food they made form then on was always bland.

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I don't believe that last thing was demonstrated. I read a story where Grogar claimed that a pony wouldn't be able to become as good at something else as they are at their special talent, and if they weren't that good at their special talent then they'd be terrible at everything. Then you've got Trouble Shoes, who doesn't know what his special talent is and it's doing a Leet; sabotaging his efforts to do anything else with his life.

 

[moralrelativity]

Compass

verb - archaic
verb: compass; 3rd person present: compasses; past tense: compassed; past participle: compassed; gerund or present participle: compassing

1. 1.​
   go around (something) in a circular course.
   "the ship wherein Magellan compassed the world"
   • surround or enclose on all sides.
     "they were compassed with numerous fierce and cruel tribes"
2. 2.​
   contrive to accomplish (something).
   "he compassed his end only by the exercise of violence"

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Thank you!

 

[WereDragon]

23rd August 2012
20:02 GMT -7

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1484 words of exposition on the author's personal fanon.

Self-contradictory fanon, as a matter of fact:

Cutie marks don't grant special talents.
-
And according to their family, none of the cutie marks related to things they have any skill in before the condition took hold, and none of them remained after the condition was cured.
-
because if the unnatural marks created by Cutie Pox are in fact representative

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These statements cannot all be true. The fact Greyven is presenting them as complementary means that either he is deliberately testing the average Pony's ability to see logical inconsistency for some obscure reason or (far more likely, if we are being honest) he is once again lying his arse off for the sole purpose of trolling.

 

[Baladar]

Huh you know when is this because if Starlgiht hears this in full she would go, "Huh, that makes a bit too much sense." When in regards to the Vulnerability that wasn't there in regards to cutie marks considering how when she stole the Cutie Mark she didn't just steal the specific talent but it seemed like she took the ability to be more than mediocre in anything, she took Talent itself.

with that in Mind yeah Cutie Marks are just points of vulnerability for ponies

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The question I was wondering to was "What happens if Glimmer stole Renegade's Mark?" then "What if he lures Real Graven there and steals his Mark?"

 

[Agumentic]

The question I was wondering to was "What happens if Glimmer stole Renegade's Mark?" then "What if he lures Real Graven there and steals his Mark?"

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Their God nature makes that pretty much impossible. Altering New Gods through magic is really hard.

 

[Jirachi]

I'm confused - it seems less like he's arguing that it's useless - in that he's saying that getting an associated cutie mark accelerates talent learning in the field, but adds a (very difficult to exploit) vulnerability, which...
Honestly seems like basically a worthwhile trade in most circumstances?

 

[Mr Zoat]

1484 words of exposition on the author's personal fanon.

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Apparently necessary disclaimer
The views expressed by a character or by characters in this story do not necessarily reflect those of the author. There are no author mouthpiece characters, only individuals with their own perspectives and opinions.

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Self-contradictory fanon, as a matter of fact:
These statements cannot all be true. The fact Greyven is presenting them as complementary means that either he is deliberately testing the average Pony's ability to see logical inconsistency for some obscure reason or (far more likely, if we are being honest) he is once again lying his arse off for the sole purpose of trolling.

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In the first sentence he was referring to the initial appearance of the cutie mark.

If a person claimed that humans have two eyes, the existence of specific instances of humans who have less than that doesn't prove that the general statement isn't true.

I'm confused - it seems less like he's arguing that it's useless - in that he's saying that getting an associated cutie mark accelerates talent learning in the field, but adds a (very difficult to exploit) vulnerability, which...

Honestly seems like basically a worthwhile trade in most circumstances?

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Assuming that's all it's doing and the same result can't be achieved in a different way, yes.

 

[Enochi]

Eh. The cutie pox is a magical malady that emulates cutie marks. Starlights 'equality' spell suppresses cutie marks. (You can see in the episode the magic mark flares when a pony tries to use their talent)

 

[WereDragon]

In the first sentence he was referring to the initial appearance of the cutie mark.

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The exact same can be said of the Awakening process. On initial application it does nothing. Even over the long term it doesn't actually grants anything, just enhances what is already there.