With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Jiro]

Why not just take the people who abuse the system, and put them in the torture-box, and keep using the better system for everyone else?

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If you can infallibly get rid of people who abuse the system, a lot of unrealistic things become realistic (for instance, the best form of government may be a dictator with unlimited power). If you are not infallible, you should create a system which people would be less likely to abuse. One way to do that is to reduce the incentive for abuse, and one way to do that is to not let people profit from prisoners.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Well... eh. Kinda, maybe, maybe not.

First, how much did they actually change? There's gotta be a threshold somewhere, a amount of change beyond which you can be considered a new person. I mean, you wouldn't consider someone a completely different person if a dastardly villain altered your mind so that you no longer like yogurt, would you?

For the second part, in a figurative sense, kinda yeah. Assuming it's not a continuous sort of mind control, you aren't being actively controlled, but you have had your mind altered to something by someone else. I mean, hopefully with the simple goal of removing whatever bit made you do that horrible thing, with a minimum of other changes and done in a publicly-verifiable manner, but still, it's reprogramming. It's definitely a massive violation of personal autonomy, privacy, etc etc.

But the thing is, at that point you're already more-or-less willing to kill the person. At least, you're willing to imprison them, and how is life imprisonment meaningfully better than death, aside from the fact that it's technically reversible. Forget about 'quality' of life, it's basically decades of borderline torture. And you can't reverse time, so congrats, you proved their innocence 50 years later... well, guess you'll just have to live without those 50 years.

Mind reading-and-editing techniques would both allow you to harm someone the least while also achieving the goal of rehabilitation/removal of threat to society. If you kill them, they die, because people die if they're killed. If you put them in prison, they die a long while later and they're tortured for the entire duration, so it's even worse than dying. But mind-control would plausibly allow you to harm them less than outright death, because some of them is still there afterwards. And if they disagree, and think that it would be worse than death to have a goody-two-shoes copy of them running around... well, that's why you give them the choice of death instead.

And the very same techniques you use to read-and-change their mind would also let you determine if they're really guilty, or narrow down the possibility of their innocence to "someone kidnapped them and altered their mind to look exactly like a crazy axe murderer!"

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I'm...pretty sure we've already had a discussion just like this over on the last board.

I've also been forced to go through Conversion "Therapy" for the purposes of making teh gay into godly straightness. So...I'm pretty much in the "Just shoot me" rather then the whole...take apart my brain and fill it with you deem acceptable. Just a puppet on strings, smiling when you say, and dancing to the tune you've forced upon me.

Death of personality IS death. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Queshire]

I'm...pretty sure we've already had a discussion just like this over on the last board.

I've also been forced to go through Conversion "Therapy" for the purposes of making teh gay into godly straightness. So...I'm pretty much in the "Just shoot me" rather then the whole...take apart my brain and fill it with you deem acceptable. Just a puppet on strings, smiling when you say, and dancing to the tune you've forced upon me.

Death of personality IS death. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.

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That's fair. Personally I'd be in the camp that'd be doing it to myself to try and see what sort of transhuman monstrosity I could become.

 

[Buggy123]

I'm...pretty sure we've already had a discussion just like this over on the last board.

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Possibly, but I honestly can't remember it.

Death of personality IS death. That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.

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I agree with you there, death of personality is death, it's just a question of where you draw the line as I see it. If you set the line at "literally any change", then by definition you die countless times every single day, every time you go to sleep, etc, as your personality ever so gradually changes and shifts.

If you set the bar any higher, then that opens up the possibility for it to change without dying, and at that point that means that its technically possible for mental editing to be done without killing someone, even if it may not be possible to change enough to make them not-a-murderer or other such thing. The only way you could define this as still killing someone without nonsensical conclusions like "a million different people inhabit your body and die every single day" is to say that mind-editing specifically always causes death, regardless of other factors.

I've also been forced to go through Conversion "Therapy" for the purposes of making teh gay into godly straightness. So...I'm pretty much in the "Just shoot me" rather then the whole...take apart my brain and fill it with you deem acceptable. Just a puppet on strings, smiling when you say, and dancing to the tune you've forced upon me.

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That, is a substantially more complicated problem.

You're essentially saying "if humans could do this sort of stuff, they'd do awful things with it." And you're absolutely right. The reason I don't see that as a reason to throw the whole thing out is simple:
Humans will do awful things with absolutely everything. Because humans are terrible.

I could easily make a argument that humans should never be allowed to have sporks, PB&J sandwiches, free will, or tubas. As I see it, literally nothing we're talking about applies or can apply to humans, humanity, Earth, etc in reality, because by default everything and everyone here is always going to be awful. Any improvement, idea for a better thing, etc is by definition fictional and non-applicable to us.

 

[hkim]

I have a question. Weren't the Dolman gates, supposed to have difficulty reaching past the orbit of the moon? How did Paul set up one that could reach Alter Clemetia to pull souls through for Hades to judge?

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If I remember right, the trouble with gates in outer space was that there's no magic in outer space. If you put the gates somewhere there is magic, you're gucci.

 

[Mr Zoat]

24th January
15:12 GMT -5

"Grayven." Ms Lane looks up at me while her colleagues in the Daily Planet office try to pretend they're not rubbernecking. "What do you want?"

"I need to get hold of Superman really quickly. Would you mind if I threw you off the building?"

She tilts her head to the left, her eyes narrowing. "Oh har. Did you come here just to make that joke?"

"No. Actually, I wanted to try interesting you in a project I've got going on."

She shrugs. "There's no way Horne can lose the election."

"That's what they said about-."

"Jonathan Horne is the one politician I'd actually believe if he told me those girls were in his room to 'get some ice'."

I snigger. Yeah, that was… Not the most credible denial ever. "That reminds me of a joke about John Major-."

"Who?"

Oh. Rrright, he doesn't exist here. "A British politician from Earth Prime. But if you don't know who he is, it.. falls rather flat. The reason I'm here is that one of my ongoing projects is to try and… Not rehabilitate so much as refocus certain types of criminal-."

"Like Lex Luthor."

"Ah… I don't believe that he's been convicted-" I nod. "-but I did have to have words with him at one point. And now he's being far more rational about how he applies himself."

"He's getting a space fleet."

"Nothing illegal about a private citizen building spaceships. And a great many people are benefiting from the cheaper electricity."

"There is something illegal about it if those ships are armed."

"I believe that he intends to build an office on the dark side of the moon, register the ships to the lunar nation and then install the guns. And given what you know of Superman's career, are you really going to try to argue that Earth doesn't need a self-defence force?"

"He's founding his own country?"

"It's an interesting bypass. The government of the United States is obliged to enforce the Outer Space Treaty upon its citizens. But if Lex registers all of the guns to a non-terrestrial polity, does it apply?"

"He's still a US citizen. Unless he's planning on renouncing his citizenship?"

"I doubt it-. At least, not in the immediate future. I suppose that if he ever gets to the point where he's spending most of his time in space he might consider it…" I shake my head. "I don't have any special knowledge there."

"But Luthor's fleet is definitely going to be armed."

"Yes, and with all sorts of fascinating weapons." I smile. "You humans can be so creative! It's a marvel. But if we can return to the reason I'm here..?"

"Rehabilitation. Like you did with Black Adam."

"Theodore Adam and Teth Adom are different men. Do you blame Superman for the things he's done while under the influence?"

"He murdered Kahndaq's government after he stopped being controlled."

I smile self-depreciatingly. "I'm hardly one to criticise that."

"What is happening to the British government?"

"The coalition government? They'll remain-."

"No, the one you deposed."

"That.. won't be decided until after the next General Election. I understand that Mister Talbot wants them charged under pre-existing laws. I'd just have killed them all, but it isn't my decision."

And if anything disproves the idea that Red Lanterns are mindless berserkers, that's it. He didn't even hesitate when the technically-not-acting Prime Minister asked him about it.

"And exactly who else have you rehabilitated?"

"Circe." Ms Lane blinks, then her eyes narrow slightly. "I'm a little surprised more hasn't been made of that."

"Circe. The witch who turns men into animal-men."

"She doesn't do that any more, and she turned back-" Most of. "-the ones she had."

"I don't remember hearing anything about her being arrested. Or decapitated."

"She behaved erratically due to a curse that had been placed upon her. Once I worked out how to bypass the curse, she no longer felt the need to."

"So she gets off scot free."

I shrug. "Despite what you might think, I'm not particularly vengeful. I'm a pragmatist. I killed Klarion because there was no way he was going to be anything other than a murderous little shit. I don't see the point in trying to rehabilitate people who can't be rehabilitated. And I'm a little frustrated that I had to have Mister Tuckman oppose plans to give Mister Napier bionic limbs." I shake my head in frustration. "Honestly, what sort of idiot thinks that giving the Joker new arms is a good idea?"

"You might have to rip them off again."

"If I'd ripped them off he'd be dead. I crushed them. Anyway, there's someone new I'm working with at the moment, and I was wondering if you'd like to meet them."

"I can get interviews with Luthor any day of the week."

"I'm sure that you can. I wasn't talking about him."

"Fine. Who is it this time?"

"Black Manta."

She frowns. "Who?"

24th January
23:21 GMT +3

Ms Lane follows me through the boom tube onto the… Bridge of the oil tanker. Two of Mr Hyde's soldiers are guarding the bridge, a third has the captain under guard while several members of his crew man the stations. Mr Hyde gives Ms Lane a moment to take in her environment before he turns away from the bridge window.

"Ms Lane."

"Black Manta. I don't think companies pay ransoms on oil tankers any more."

"Actually, they do and then say they don't. But I won't be ransoming The Queen's Grace." He reaches up and takes off his helmet. I felt that visual transition was quite important; show himself as a supervillain changing into something else. "They were cleaning out their oil tanks at sea; illegally dumping hundreds of gallons of waste oil."

"And you care about that since when?"

"I'm a mercenary, Ms Lane. I don't care about anything except my crew unless someone's paying me to."

"Grayven said he was trying to rehabilitate you."

"Grayven wants me to take legal jobs. Which I can't do at the moment because I've got international arrest warrants on me."

"You attacked the capital of Atlantis."

"I got hired by one side in a civil war. Whatever King Orin likes to think, Orm had plenty of support in Atlantis. If Orm had won, I'd have had a major payday. He lost, so I'm a criminal."

"You were a criminal before that."

"I was a mercenary before that. Or a.. private security operative, if you want to be polite about it. Governments say all kinds of things are against the law, except when they're the ones doing them."

"So what's this about?"

"This is a sign I'm willing to go legitimate. Useful work for the community."

"Which you're getting paid for."

"If you think Grayven's paying me as much as I could get for quietly ransoming an oil tanker, you've got another thing coming. But I've reached the point in my life where the prospect of spending all my time in a submarine isn't as appealing as it used to be. I'm trying to show that I'm willing to limit myself to legitimate work."

"If you get let off all your crimes."

"I'm willing to negotiate. But I don't want to pretend I've had some kind of moral revelation here." He shrugs. "It's a move from high risk high reward to low risk low reward. The costs of staying outside the law have mounted up and I'd rather stop paying them."

I smile. Mr Hyde isn't one of the world's greatest speakers, but he's sticking to our agreed angle. I send the files on the ship to the relevant port authorities, then step back towards the boom tube.

"I'll leave you two to get better acquainted. Back in an hour."

 

[doug89]

"I'll leave you two to get better acquainted. Back in an hour."

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Cue Superman smashing into the bridge of the tanker to 'rescue' Lane.

 

[Handlewithcare]

I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.

 

[Queshire]

I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.

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*Shrug* How big of an investment is it really?

 

[Jormuungaand]

You're essentially saying "if humans could do this sort of stuff, they'd do awful things with it." And you're absolutely right. The reason I don't see that as a reason to throw the whole thing out is simple:
Humans will do awful things with absolutely everything. Because humans are terrible.

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Humans are also wonderful. Antibiotics. Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity. Electricity. Beethoven's symphonies. Pizza. I could go on. We've created some real wonders too. Don't get hung up on the negatives.

I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.

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Good question. I always thought he was a minor fringe villain. I'm not all that conversant as a lot of readers however, so I may be missing something fairly well known quite easily.

 

[Ardy]

*Shrug* How big of an investment is it really?

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If he succeeds, he gets a moderately competent mercenary of which he already had plenty through Scandal Savage.

If he fails, he gets this thrown in his face every time he tries to get someone else on his side.

Seems high risk, low reward, to me.

 

[Oglymogly]

I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.

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Remember, Black Manta approached the Light wanting a seat at the table. Grayven "subtly" turned him away and asked what he wanted. Now he is trying to give him that while also fitting him into Grayven's vision of how the world should work. And hopefully he'll be a example other villains can follow in the future.

Beyond that, he is removing a potential wild card from interfering with one of the Light's bases of operation. If Black Manta was simply turned away from having a seat, he could attack or inconvenience Venturia or implicate Queen Clea with a attack elsewhere.

Also, if Aquaman actually starts using Black Manta as deniable assets, Grayven would have a way to track or influence those black op missions. Very doubtful to happen, but possible. Always take free shots when you can, they just might score.

 

[FreeGod]

I really don't understand why Grayven is going to bat for him. Black Mantis isn't anything special. Grayven could make 10 more like him in a week.

Just hire some sailors and give them subs with good auto pilot.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I really don't understand why Grayven is going to bat for him. Black Mantis isn't anything special. Grayven could make 10 more like him in a week.

Just hire some sailors and give them subs with good auto pilot.

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No, Grayven actually can't conjure up veteran mercenaries without any effort. He could make some, but that would require considerable time and oversight.

 

[Vaermina]

"I believe that he intends to build an office on the dark side of the moon, register the ships to the lunar nation and then install the guns. And given what you know of Superman's career, are you really going to try to argue that Earth doesn't need a self-defence force?"

"He's founding his own country?"

"It's an interesting bypass. The government of the United Space is obliged to enforce the Outer Space Treaty upon its citizens. But if Lex registers all of the guns to a non-terrestrial polity, does it apply?"

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Yes, because international law says a private citizen can't legally own any part of the moon.

And that includes founding a country on said moon.

 

[FreeGod]

No, Grayven actually can't conjure up veteran mercenaries without any effort. He could make some, but that would require considerable time and oversight.

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It's not like veteran mercenaries are in that short supply if DC is anything like earth prime.

Yes, because international law says a private citizen can't legally own any part of the moon.

And that includes founding a country on said moon.

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International law is always somewhat flexible until it is actually enforced.

 

[Queshire]

Ahahaha, I've been thinking of work arounds too, and while I'm sure it wouldn't work in real life I still like the idea megacorps settling the moon instead of individual countries. Of course, that may just be because I like the idea of a major metropolis being called the city of Apple-Google

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

"I need to get hold of Superman really quickly. Would you mind if I threw you off the building?"

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Hey, it's worked when she wanted an interview with him, once or twice.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Jonathan Horne is the one politician I'd actually believe if he told me those girls were in his room to 'get some ice'."

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Starting to get suspicious. No one's that squeaky clean.

"I believe that he intends to build an office on the dark side of the moon, register the ships to the lunar nation and then install the guns. And given what you know of Superman's career, are you really going to try to argue that Earth doesn't need a self-defence force?"

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I see Lex has all the angles worked out.

"It's an interesting bypass. The government of the United Space is obliged to enforce the Outer Space Treaty upon its citizens. But if Lex registers all of the guns to a non-terrestrial polity, does it apply?"

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'United Space'? Wot?

"Yes, and with all sorts of fascinating weapons." I smile. "You humans can be so creative! It's a marvel. But if we can return to the reason I'm here..?"

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Lovely Earth Bullshit Technology.

"He murdered Kahndaq's government after he stopped being controlled."

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From what we saw of them, that was a public service...

And if anything disproves the idea that Red Lanterns are mindless berserkers, that's it. He didn't even hesitate when the technically-not-acting Prime Minister asked him about it.

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Cold rage is always more potent than hot.

"She behaved erratically due to a curse that had been placed upon her. Once I worked out how to bypass the curse, she no longer felt the need to."

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A 'Curse'. Only in comic books would that be believable

"Honestly, what sort of idiot thinks that giving the Joker new arms is a good idea?"

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...Seriously? Are the staff of Arkham Asylum idiots with no pattern recog-... Oh, right.

"I can get interviews with Luther any day of the week."

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"I can get interviews with Luthor any day of the week."

She frowns. "Who?"

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Ouch. That says something about Hyde's rep.

"I got hired by one side in a civil war. Whatever King Orin likes to think, Orm had plenty of support in Atlantis. If Orm had won, I'd have had a major payday. He lost, so I'm a criminal."

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Sums up Atlantean politics nicely.

"If you think Grayven's paying me as much as I could get for quietly ransoming an oil tanker, you've got another thing coming. But I've reached the point in my life where the prospect of spending all my time in a submarine isn't as appealing as it used to be. I'm trying to show that I'm willing to limit myself to legitimate work."

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Sounds nice...

"I'm willing negotiate. But I don't want to pretend...

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"I'm willing to negotiate. But I don't want to pretend...

"It's a move from high risk high reward to low risk low reward. The costs of staying outside the law have mounted up and I'd rather stop paying them."

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Ah, pragmatism.

"I'll leave you two to get better acquainted. Back in an hour."

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...You did make sure Superman isn't on his way, didn't you?

Looks like the 'reform Manta' quest is progressing nicely.

 

[Oglymogly]

Yes, because international law says a private citizen can't legally own any part of the moon.

And that includes founding a country on said moon.

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If it came down to it, Grayven could just grab some good sized asteroids, fuse them solid, set it up in orbit with a space station on it. Nations can be built on artificial land masses.

 

[Khettien]

Humans are also wonderful. Antibiotics. Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity. Electricity. Beethoven's symphonies. Pizza.

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To be fair, every one of those has a down side, as well - even with the symphonies, we've made muzak of them and then made that into hold music and ringtones - and I'm pretty sure Beethoven would have killed the people responsible if he'd known that's how his compositions would be used. He had some pretty strong feelings on the proper way to listen to music.

 

[Mquz]

You know, considering this is the joker, he might wind up getting some sort of psychic powers to let him move around due to narrative convenience.

 

[TheEyes]

If it came down to it, Grayven could just grab some good sized asteroids, fuse them solid, set it up in orbit with a space station on it. Nations can be built on artificial land masses.

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That seems wiser anyway: build a fuel depot in L2 and a city in L5 on artificial landmasses. Leave the Moon alone until someone, or more likely several someones, can be absolutely certain it isn't being used as a prison to hold a magical dark matter entity or something (it's DC; it could happen).

 

[Handlewithcare]

And hopefully he'll be a example other villains can follow in the future.

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That one is the only one that actually makes sense to me.

Grayven is rather straining his relationship with Orin and others and the only way to justify that would be with a potential payoff like that.

 

[Simonbob]

To be fair, every one of those has a down side, as well - even with the symphonies, we've made muzak of them and then made that into hold music and ringtones - and I'm pretty sure Beethoven would have killed the people responsible if he'd known that's how his compositions would be used. He had some pretty strong feelings on the proper way to listen to music.

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Sure, and upsides to most of the less plesant things we've made and done.

There were a fair number of medical breakthroughs as a result of the horrors the Nazi's did unto their victims, for example.

 

[Valint]

I still don't get why Grayven is so invested in him.

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I was assuming it was the Aqualad connection. In the same way that Grayven did a better job than Paragon at getting Superboy a family, giving Kaldur a chance to connect with his father is perhaps worth at least some minimal effort to him.

 

[Vaermina]

If it came down to it, Grayven could just grab some good sized asteroids, fuse them solid, set it up in orbit with a space station on it. Nations can be built on artificial land masses.

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Assume for a moment that anything any of us can think up in five minutes to get around something has already been thought up and countered by lawyers who have spent decades making laws about these sorts of things...

 

[Aeess]

No, Grayven actually can't conjure up veteran mercenaries without any effort. He could make some, but that would require considerable time and oversight.

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Cant he just have Dubbilex make some and give them some personality adjustments similar to William Harper.

 

[Jormuungaand]

Yes, because international law says a private citizen can't legally own any part of the moon.

And that includes founding a country on said moon.

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Just Luna, or are moons further out off limits too? Mars is occupied, Mercury is too hot, Venus is a horrible atmosphere, not worth trying to build in burning hot acid.(Even with Sivana there already) I challenge even schitzo-tech to find something to land ON on the gas giants. Pluto is inconvenient. Asteroids have already been mentioned, so, moons.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"It's an interesting bypass. The government of the United Space is obliged to enforce the Outer Space Treaty upon its citizens. But if Lex registers all of the guns to a non-terrestrial polity, does it apply?"
'United Space'? Wot?
"I can get interviews with Luther any day of the week."
"I can get interviews with Luthor any day of the week."
"I'm willing negotiate. But I don't want to pretend...
"I'm willing to negotiate. But I don't want to pretend...

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Thank you, corrected.

Looks like the 'reform Manta' quest is progressing nicely.

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It's more 'reform' Manta, really.

 

[Buggy123]

Assume for a moment that anything any of us can think up in five minutes to get around something has already been thought up and countered by lawyers who have spent decades making laws about these sorts of things...

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At some point you have to put your foot down and say "look, tiny little blue-green ball, you do not have jurisdiction over the entire universe. I am going to build here and if you have such a big issue with it, come up here and make me leave."

Just Luna, or are moons further out off limits too? Mars is occupied, Mercury is too hot, Venus is a horrible atmosphere, not worth trying to build in burning hot acid.(Even with Sivana there already) I challenge even schitzo-tech to find something to land ON on the gas giants. Pluto is inconvenient. Asteroids have already been mentioned, so, moons.

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Bah, that's only if you keep thinking inside the box. Venus is actually a fairly good candidate for colonization with floating habitats. Jupiter is... less viable, not so much because you couldn't copy that same concept to a gas giant, but rather because it's really fucking radioactive, to the point that you wouldn't be worrying so much about cancer because you'd die long before that becomes a issue.