With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Pinklestia]

Equestrian imperialism was a thing since they stole land from the buffalo.

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Land they technically didn't own or develop, just used to run. They didn't even live there or used it for food.

That's like saying you own the road just because you use it to walk for every day.

Also again; 800 years of scorching heat would be very bad.

I would have accepted SOME of Daring Do adventurers being her stealing from people but when her enemies were literally either trying to kill her or destroy Equestria the previous time we saw her?

Yeah you stole something from us? We will destroy the world, perfectly reasonable.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Land they technically didn't own or develop, just used to run. They didn't even live there or used it for food.

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Then we're back to 'how does an unowned thing become owned?' Why does 'we pass through here once a year' matter less than 'we live here all year'? Does Equestria not own its own roads or railways?

 

[Agumentic]

Land they technically didn't own or develop, just used to run. They didn't even live there or used it for food.

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Yes, "you don't use this land well so we should have it" is probably in the top three excuses for imperialism.

 

[Doccer]

Elk-in Marbles

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Link?

I mean the 'don't smash stuff when you don't know what your doing and haven't put any thought into the ramifications' line of leading dialectic is sound, but there is no reason for the 'Celestia isn't the rightful owner of the sun' line to be part of that. Since he doesn't seem to actually care about rightful owners at all.

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True. Very true. Seems like he's just Celestia bashing.

I was always kinda disappointed that Daring Do turned out to be real, and looked exactly as Dash imagined her. I always headcanoned that she looked like a color-swapped Dash because Dash was self-inserting herself into the story, it being her first real book that she was into and all.

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I think she used her own picture on the cover image. That's why she knew what she looked like.
At the end of that first Daring Do episode she and Rainbow Dash were featured on the next Daring Do book.

maybe even returned eventually

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Heh haha! (Sarcasm)

 

[WaleXdraK]

So, Lara Croft?

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In nearly all of the game Lara try to get extremely dangerous artifact before peoples not so kind try to grab them, do it end up with historical monuments and old tombs being destroyed ? Sure, is it the worst outcome? nah.
ps: also most of what she take end up in museum too, at least that what happen in the old games, not sure about the game in the reboot, i know she fuck up a lot more in those and the end of Shadow Of The Tomb Raider make her realise that.

 

[Pinklestia]

Then we're back to 'how does an unowned thing become owned?' Why does 'we pass through here once a year' matter less than 'we live here all year'? Does Equestria not own its own roads or railways?

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The place is a literal desert that was set for development. The Buffalo didn't complain at all, not about the railway or the town, until they started to plant trees.

This works fine as a episode but doesn't work as an allegory of anything because the situation depicted is quite ridiculous.

And as show in the episode, the ponies were willing to compromise.

That's why the whole "Daring Do suddenly is a thief and the bad guy, nevermind her enemies LITERALLY TRIED TO KILL HER AND DESTROY EQUESTRIA IN A PREVIOUS EPISODE!" makes no bloody sense.

Just like you know, throwing a literally kid into a max security prison without trial like Twilight Sparkle did.

More so since said kid had no magic of her own or any special abilities besides talking to others. Just put her in a regular prison with a muzzle so she doesn't talk, not in the closest Equestria has to Hell.

Yes she is a sociopath but so is Twilight Sparkle on a bad dad, and she is also NOT a reality warping Unicorn strong enough to defeat a Princess.

So honesty, trying to apply common sense and human decency to Equestria doesn't work because ponies do not think like humans. You can as as easily be forgiven for trying to destroy the world as throw into Tartarus without trial.

Yes, "you don't use this land well so we should have it" is probably in the top three excuses for imperialism.

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More like "That place you go on vacations once a year? We are turning into an apple farn."

"What do you mean is you ancestral vacation spot?"

 

[Impatient_Quill]

More like "That place you go on vacations once a year? We are turning into an apple farn."

"What do you mean is you ancestral vacation spot?"

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"It is where my people have come every year since (local time-moon God) got drink and (local sun-seaeon goddess) started chasing him around the sky. Who are you to dictate what we can do with what the gods gifted us?"

 

[Whenever Possible]

Link?

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Just a reference to the Elgin Marbles, not an actual thing that has been referenced before in this fic or in MLP, as a joke about a rl set of artifacts (so much as massive sculpted marble friezes decorating the walls of a temple can be considered artifacts) taken under dubious circumstances that the nation of origin wants returned by the present holders.

 

[Enochi]

I don't like this. Which is rare for me to say for Renegade chapters as I typically find them more enjoyable. However this chapter is using invented reasons to make a characters like Daring Do and Rainbow Dash unsympathetic to make the author avatar seem Holier then thou. When as many have pointed out he is being more then a little hypocritical.

 

[Whenever Possible]

I don't like this. Which is rare for me to say for Renegade chapters as I typically find them more enjoyable. However this chapter is using invented reasons to make a characters like Daring Do and Rainbow Dash unsympathetic to make the author avatar seem Holier then thou. When as many have pointed out he is being more then a little hypocritical.

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Plot Twist for the next chapter: Grayven doesn't care about the artifacts that Daring Do has taken, he's just trying to play nice with the locals because they represent the best lead he has on magic capable of controlling stars, which provides him with both a nice thing he can do for Luna and a potential superweapon to use in his ongoing struggles against Apokolips

 

[Enochi]

Plot Twist for the next chapter: Grayven doesn't care about the artifacts that Daring Do has taken, he's just trying to play nice with the locals because they represent the best lead he has on magic capable of controlling stars, which provides him with both a nice thing he can do for Luna and a potential superweapon to use in his ongoing struggles against Apokolips

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Honestly while that would fix the Holier then Thou Grayven issue. It still doesn't fix the "Inventing 'victims' to make DD and RD look bad" probelm.

 

[rkyeun]

Yup, it's honestly a minor miracle that people haven't started calling them on it yet.

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I expect him to straight up own it, Perfect-Cell-style.
"You do it all the time!" "Yes. And I'm a monster."

 

[Mr Zoat]

Honestly while that would fix the Holier then Thou Grayven issue. It still doesn't fix the "Inventing 'victims' to make DD and RD look bad" probelm.

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You know it's... Canon, right?

 

[preier]

You know it's... Canon, right?

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I've been wondering if people had missed that.
check season nine

 

[Enochi]

You know it's... Canon, right?

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Well what do you know. I honestly had no idea. My apologies.

 

[Cuchulin]

Heh haha! (Sarcasm)

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Lots of things have been returned, to Egypt at least, even if there are lots more items that haven't. That said the POSSIBILITY is there, if only because it's relatively easy to locate and a museum is very unlikely to sell it off to someone else, lose track of it or throw it away as well as being more susceptible to public pressure.

 

[PDV]

is bellow sea level

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below

"This belongs in a museum! Assuming that colonial-imperial appropriation for the purpose of hegemonic taxonomisation is a suitable response to the problem of intercultural contact. Which it probably is, because museums are magnificent institutions."

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[Enochi]

Honestly the whole last several seasons once they started the school made for some very.... Questionable situations. For example Cozy Glow while very much evil, is still very young. And they pretty much execute her at the end of the episode. (No ages are given but she seems to be crusaders age which would put her likely around early teenager at best possibly much younger.) Also ponies seem to have significantly longer lifespans then humans given that it was stated Ponyville was founded "Hundreds of years ago" and Granny Smith was there at the founding as a filly. Though....what equates a "year" on Wilson might be a different unit of measurement then earth by far.

 

[Coda]

Fortress of Talacon

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Fortress of Talacone

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I don't know which one's right, but it's seems likely that at least one of them is wrong.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Well what do you know. I honestly had no idea. My apologies.

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No problem.

See, if you look at the episode it's relatively obvious that something is up. Caballeron has an artefact and sells it. Nothing there is illegal. Ahuizotl turns up and takes it. Possibly theft, but then it turns out that he knows the site it originally came from. Not only that, but the ponies who are helping him are dressed in a similar enough way to him and to the site that it looks like they're from the same culture. They even have cutie marks to go along with it. That means that this isn't some abandoned ruin, it's part of an existing culture. It's not someone finding a tomb deep in the Egyptian desert, it's someone taking a crowbar to the floorboards of Westminster Abbey.

Everything else we know about Ahuizotl comes from stories written by someone who considers herself his enemy.

Lots of things have been returned, to Egypt at least, even if there are lots more items that haven't. That said the POSSIBILITY is there, if only because it's relatively easy to locate and a museum is very unlikely to sell it off to someone else, lose track of it or throw it away as well as being more susceptible to public pressure.

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I saw a program a while ago about an archaeologist who smuggled things out of modern Egypt. His justification was that there were small find all the time, and the building companies that made them usually had the relics quietly destroyed. If they did what they were supposed to do and hand them over to the government agency, that would mean that all building work would have to stop for months or years while a full excavation happened. Since that would cost them money, it was easiest to just pretend it never happened. Unless a smuggler who could keep quiet if they got access was on hand. The smuggler gets cut price antiquities, the building firm gets to keep building and the world doesn't lose irreplaceable historical artefacts.

I don't know which one's right, but it's seems likely that at least one of them is wrong.

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Rainbow Dash mispronounced it.

Mr Zoat, I'm reposting this because I think you missed it.

The picture here doesn't work, though I'm not sure what's supposed to be there.

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Thank you, updated.

 

[nick012000]

I was thinking more Aztec, given the general look the place had.

Though I don't think there's anything like a stereotypical Aztec accent.

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It'd just be a stereotypical Mexican accent, most likely. Remember, the Aztecs were called the "Mexica" when they were still around; they only got called the "Aztecs" after their empire fell as a way of distinguishing their empire from Spanish Mexico.

Moreover, Nahuatl, their language, is still spoken by over million people in Mexico.

 

[Flightless Man]

It usually comes across (at least to me), as if Grayven, just wants the other person to care enough to have an actual debate with him. I think Grayven, would love a genuine debate without the other side getting emotionally invested. Especially with Grayven, he's a god of Conquest. It seems like he's just trying to conquer the conversation/debate, but almost never has an emotional stake in what he's disecting. It's either debate people and conquer their minds, or beat them up and physically conquer them. I don't think Grayven can help himself, but he doesn't actually care about his own points themselves, only as a means to making people agree. It's like his divine nature forces him to turn even a simple conversation between potential rivals into a contest.
...

Side note: I'm still having a hard time reading the pony chapters (horses terrify me to the point they are the scariest thing in game of thrones). But I just pretend they are all easter bunnies instead and it usually works fine until hooves/haunches/manes get mentioned.

 

[Darko]

It usually comes across (at least to me), as if Grayven, just wants the other person to care enough to have an actual debate with him. I think Grayven, would love a genuine debate without the other side getting emotionally invested. Especially with Grayven, he's a god of Conquest. It seems like he's just trying to conquer the conversation/debate, but almost never has an emotional stake in what he's disecting. It's either debate people and conquer their minds, or beat them up and physically conquer them. I don't think Grayven can help himself, but he doesn't actually care about his own points themselves, only as a means to making people agree. It's like his divine nature forces him to turn even a simple conversation between potential rivals into a contest

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This might actually explain things and it can expand on how his divine domain may be changing him.

Of course the other explanation is that he's just an asshole, which can also fit, seeing as he was an asshole long before he became a god.

Side note: I'm still having a hard time reading the pony chapters (horses terrify me to the point they are the scariest thing in game of thrones). But I just pretend they are all easter bunnies instead and it usually works fine until hooves/haunches/manes get mentioned

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Ahh...okay.

 

[Impatient_Quill]

Lots of things have been returned, to Egypt at least, even if there are lots more items that haven't. That said the POSSIBILITY is there, if only because it's relatively easy to locate and a museum is very unlikely to sell it off to someone else, lose track of it or throw it away as well as being more susceptible to public pressure.

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A lot of mummies were eaten before that started happening.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Side note: I'm still having a hard time reading the pony chapters (horses terrify me to the point they are the scariest thing in game of thrones). But I just pretend they are all easter bunnies instead and it usually works fine until hooves/haunches/manes get mentioned.

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Try Care Bears, I guess? They're basically the same.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

Legal supremacy. States generally don't legislate for actions that take place entirely beyond their borders. This doesn't mean that they don't try to influence those things (with varying degrees of thuggishness) just that they don't do it by passing statute law.

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Sorry, apparently I was being unclear.

Saying nations assert claim of authority within their boarders and not outside them is a pointless statement when they also can choose to claim anything as all as being within their boarders, without any reasonable claim at all.

Without going into modern politics, I think I can still talk about stuff like the northwest passage. Where before it was ever discovered/charted, multiple nations had already decided they owned it. Even if people weren't sure it existed, if it turns out it did, it was their property. Even if some some other nation discovered it instead of them, nope, it is still theirs, because they say so.

Or nations can claim land they don't currently occupy, and are not really policing, or providing services for, and are doing fuck-all with. There are many uninhabited islands out there in the middle of the ocean, that are claimed by some country or other. If you happen to wash up there, Chances are you starve to death. The claiming country doesn't regularly patrol it, doesn't have a stash of emergency supplies and shelter there. Basically doing nothing useful at all there, except claiming the ability to punish anyone else who tries to use it.

And also stuff like deciding they own some foreign peoples land, and then selling it to someone else, despite the first group actively using it.

Equestria claiming the sun as their territory on account of their ruler being able to magically swing it around like a wrecking ball is on the more tame and reasonable side of the usual governmental shittery.

 

[Pinklestia]

Honestly, I lost all interest in Daring Do once they made her a "real" character, well real for the show. It doesn't help the episode were that happens is basically as if Rainbow Dash was writing fanfiction.

Then the next two Daring Do episodes? One basically kills the character and the other exists for writers to tell fans that pretend thar the newest seasons of the show don't exist that they suck.

Worse, not even actual Daring Do in that episode.

There, rant done.

 

[Radix]

It'd just be a stereotypical Mexican accent, most likely. Remember, the Aztecs were called the "Mexica" when they were still around; they only got called the "Aztecs" after their empire fell as a way of distinguishing their empire from Spanish Mexico.

Moreover, Nahuatl, their language, is still spoken by over million people in Mexico.

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Mexica was the wider culture. Aztec could also be used to refer to the Hegemonic alliance that dominated the area.

It usually comes across (at least to me), as if Grayven, just wants the other person to care enough to have an actual debate with him. I think Grayven, would love a genuine debate without the other side getting emotionally invested. Especially with Grayven, he's a god of Conquest. It seems like he's just trying to conquer the conversation/debate, but almost never has an emotional stake in what he's disecting. It's either debate people and conquer their minds, or beat them up and physically conquer them. I don't think Grayven can help himself, but he doesn't actually care about his own points themselves, only as a means to making people agree. It's like his divine nature forces him to turn even a simple conversation between potential rivals into a contest.
...

Side note: I'm still having a hard time reading the pony chapters (horses terrify me to the point they are the scariest thing in game of thrones). But I just pretend they are all easter bunnies instead and it usually works fine until hooves/haunches/manes get mentioned.

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Grayven is a complete troll. He likes to argue goe the sake of it or just to rile people up. He cant resist getting reactions out of people. He did it to Robin and KF plenty early on, and it was part of what tortured him when he was anti-lifed.

Unfortunately that experience didnt break him out of it completely. True to habit he still slips back into it when someone pisses him off. Or if he is bored.

I actually think that the Sheeda ordeal has definitely caused him to regress a bit.

 

[Doccer]

How would you feel if I broke into your home and stole your property?"

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Probably more accurate for him to say to go after either of her castles. Which I suppose he wouldn't

You know it's... Canon, right?

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I believe he was talking more about the Celestia bashing, and or hypocrisy, than the Daring Do side of things? Which I still agree with besides my following response.

Well what do you know. I honestly had no idea. My apologies.

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No problem.

See, if you look at the episode it's relatively obvious that something is up. Caballeron has an artefact and sells it. Nothing there is illegal. Ahuizotl turns up and takes it. Possibly theft, but then it turns out that he knows the site it originally came from. Not only that, but the ponies who are helping him are dressed in a similar enough way to him and to the site that it looks like they're from the same culture. They even have cutie marks to go along with it. That means that this isn't some abandoned ruin, it's part of an existing culture. It's not someone finding a tomb deep in the Egyptian desert, it's someone taking a crowbar to the floorboards of Westminster Abbey.

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I actually haven't gotten to Season 9 yet. I think I stopped off after that goat centaur Teltic whatever attacked and was beaten.
But I did look up Daring Do's Antagonist character prior to this and I don't believe that just because Daring Do ain't as much a good guy as that episode insisted on was means Ahuizotl was any less a villain. Even if she struck first, his response was still to set off 800 years of scorching sun, which if successful, he would have caused untold ecological disaster world wide. Plus, you know, all the death, sentient and otherwise. No way would moving the sun closer would have only affected the what? 30 miles or so of the immediate jungle area they lived in?
Now how that is supposedly gonna kill off one pony that he had tied up suspended over a piranha pit and could have killed off anytime I don't know.
At best the ponies that helped him could get away with this literal crime against nature with being told one thing by him in their native tongue and being unable to make heads or tails of what he was threatening to the stupid foreigners in their strange language. They did just admit to being unaware. But he did verbally state his intentions with that particular artifact Infront of Daring Do and the Mane6. Plenty of witnesses.

If we are supposed to take Daring Do's books with some hefty salt because she wrote him as the bad guy then we should take his books with her as the bad guy with the same. It's not as if either books weren't written with an agenda right?

He said to create 800 years of scorching sun, not now that he's finally gotten his people's heirlooms back home where they belong he wasn't going to let her steal them again.
1 is a green flag that all is clear and Daring Do is correct, the other is a red flag that something is very wrong and not as it should be.
The existence of ponies in the appropriate garb and marks following his commands is secondary to the immediate disaster he is actually saying he'll unleash.
The thefts and the doomsday weapon\plan are 2 separate matters. I don't see why the near mass murder should get off lightly just because the one to thwart him wasn't keeping her nose clean. And that is assuming this was the ONE time he ever did, and ever was going to get people and animals killed. He's not innocent just because she's guilty. If both did two different crimes then they should both get two different appropriate times

Also, how do his people feel about having the sun beat down on them for 800 years with heat stroke and watching all their crops and various water sources dry up? Think Ahuizotl Think!

It usually comes across (at least to me), as if Grayven, just wants the other person to care enough to have an actual debate with him. I think Grayven, would love a genuine debate without the other side getting emotionally invested. Especially with Grayven, he's a god of Conquest. It seems like he's just trying to conquer the conversation/debate, but almost never has an emotional stake in what he's disecting. It's either debate people and conquer their minds, or beat them up and physically conquer them. I don't think Grayven can help himself, but he doesn't actually care about his own points themselves, only as a means to making people agree. It's like his divine nature forces him to turn even a simple conversation between potential rivals into a contest.

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That is an interesting point, and would fit with his actions...

 

[ForeverShogo]

I'm pretty sure there was also another episode where Caballeron was basically using the fact that locals in a region hated Daring Do because her adventures tended to destroy their property, including a statue considered sacred, as a cover for his theft of . . . . something I can't remember. Just that he was spreading rumors that Daring Do was the actual thief, and her already garbage reputation with them meant that they were inclined to believe him.

So it's not like there isn't precedent.

Of course people also have a point that if you're presenting yourself as a big bad evil guy threatening to doom the world, you don't really get to complain if someone takes you seriously and decides to beat your ass.

The twist with Ahuizotl is basically meaningless because he still acted like a goddamn supervillain instead of being remotely reasonable.