With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Vaermina · Apr 21, 2022

And Gaea bends over backwards for LePaul...

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Bud-E said:
What does that mean? What does Euanthe think her new powers mean versus what they actually are?

It's possible that Gaea is referring to how Euanthe doesn't fully understand her new role as a goddess.

Not her actual raw powers, but more her new role.

Massgamer · Apr 21, 2022

Vaermina said:
And Gaea bends over backwards for LePaul...

Was it bending over backwards just to ask where the cyclopes are? I mean, as far as we know its not like she was being bond not to share the information at all and only asked if he planned to seek conflict with them, believing him when he said no since he has given no reason to assume he would and she does think highly of him since he saved one of her daughters.

Chojin Patriarch · Apr 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
28th October 2012
17:42 GMT +3

"Paul, sit down there-" Menalippe points to an upholstered chair in the small drawing room she's led me to. "-and take off your rings."

I sit down, but hesitate on removing my rings.

A very astute move, though it won't affect his mind much, if that's what she's thinking. Maybe she just wants to hear his replies without the rings over-dubbing her perception of his voice. I mean, sure, it may not look like a badly-dubbed movie, but still...

"I don't speak much Themysciran Greek, and your English isn't anything like perfect. Taking off my rings introduces an opportunity for miscommunication."

"I understand. I want you to take them off anyway."

On the other hand, it's good that she's been learning English. Probably to make it easier to talk to the princes.

Due diligence scans… Clear. I shrug, take off first Hinon's custom ring and then Larfleeze's first ring and then lean down to lay them both on the floor. And then I take a deep breath in through my nose. One of the nice things about Themyscira is that there hasn't been enough industrial development for taking off the rings to worsen the quality of the air I'm breathing. Some parts get a bit wiffy when they're cleaning out the sewers, but that's not a problem at the moment.

That's probably one of the annoyances of the environmental shield: no ability to stop and smell the air, at least not without dropping its' protection. And having the rings transmit the sensations into his brain just isn't the same.

"Are any gods dead?"

She's got a strong accent, but she's clearly been attending language classes. Amazons have had time to learn more languages but they haven't really had the opportunity until recently. And the languages they have been learning sound very strange to speakers from other parts of the world due to linguistic drift and the lack of native speakers to communicate with.

And, to some degree, the lack of a common linguistic basis. English is not much like Greek.

"No."

"Have any titans been released?"

Presumably wary of having to sound the alarm, I suppose.

"Yes, Metis."

"Metis has been released from Zeus's body?"

Bonus point: saving a woman from a man's tyranny and abuse. Well, a Goddess, actually, but would an Amazon sweat that detail?

"Hephaestaean broke open his forehead."

"And the roles of the gods. Has that changed?"

Take a seat, or you may fall on the floor laughing.

"Ares has been removed from his position as God of War and is now God of Eunuchs. The position of God of War is now open. Zeus has been suspended from his position of God of Weather. Hephaestaean is now God of Technology and Artifice, which encompasses and expands upon his previous role. So far there have been no other changes."

"Ritual observances. Have those changed?"

Bonus point: Ares humbled and brought low. I doubt the Amazons are going to celebrate openly, but I suspect there will be private laughter.

Amazons don't pray to Ares.

"I suggest making a bigger thing of the Hephaesteia. Use it as a time for teaching reluctant Amazons to use unfamiliar machinery."

And if he has his way, that will probably happen a lot.

"Who will be the new God of War?"

"Hephaestaean suggested Queen Hippolyta or Kratos."

As nice as it would be to see a female War, I doubt Hippolyta would accept. She seems more comfortable in the mortal world.

"Queen Hippolyta would not want it. Kratos may. I do not know."

"How about Athena?"

Double-dipping on War, eh? Though I suspect soldiers in her sphere of influence would become more logical and focused, that's not always a good thing.

"Lady Athena is a strategist. She might be capable of fulfilling the role, but I doubt that she could ever have the bloodlust that Ares possesses."

"Is that bloodlust essential?"

...Because logical people can do some nasty things in the name of victory if they can justify it.

"That, or something like it. Lady Athena speaks into the ears of generals as Goddess of Strategy. Ares rouses the blood of warriors. The outlook is quite different. Kratos was known for his willingness to use brute force for Zeus. Athena is different."

No. If that's a requirement, she won't. And neither would Queen Hippolyta.

She's seen too much of war to readily embrace that mindset.

"Why did you want to talk to me in private?"

"Because we know that you bring chaos, that you love Prince Kon and Princess Diana, and that you are a deadly enemy. I was worried that you might have gone to war with all Olympus. Many Amazons were worried that you might do that. Now, I can calm them."

You'll note no judgement over the nature of that love. As for her judgement of OL's tendency towards... Overreaction? That's entirely fair.

"Okay, but why did you want me to take off my rings?"

"It is a symbol of the avarice spirit. I think it proper that you not speak to her while we talk."

That's also fair. Not that he needs the rings to talk to Best Snek...

"Ah, okay, but that wouldn't actually stop me. Our souls are bound together."

"Then it just makes it clear to you. And it will remind you that you are mortal. What other changes can we expect?"

Okay, that is a good point. OL does kind of forget little things like limitations when he's in full 'problem-solver' mode.

I think this is something from Amazon culture that I don't understand. Move on. "Hephaestaean will have a more active role in the world."

"When Io and Thana both left Themyscira at their gods' command, we knew that other gods might also make that command. We have accepted the idea."

Accepting the idea is one thing. Accepting the reality might be another.

"Erichthonius and Io are turning Baroness von Gunther's old workshop into a new temple, and will probably expect more Amazons to make an effort with expanding their horizons."

"I can work to encourage that."

I mean, I doubt Io is the only smith on the entire island. And there may be lots of Amazons vaguely interested in the idea of Science.

"Does Zeus have a cult here?"

"Not any more. The few Amazons that prayed to him did so… In the hope that he would make them pregnant. That no longer happens."

Given that between Hera's little vengeances and the inevitable issues of a male child being born on Themyscira...

I nod. With the weather here guaranteed and with his moral lessons frankly dubious, there wasn't any obvious reason for one to exist. But it's worth checking. I get-.

No. Wait.

Missing the details for the big picture, OL.

"How will this affect how Amazons feel about me?"

"Most women don't know enough about what you have done today to have decided how they feel. We expect demigod heroes to do great things, but this…"

And at this point, OL is definitely in Demi-god territory. The next big step will be when he finally manipulates Orange Light without his Rings...

I nod. "Right. That's fair." I stand, calling my rings back to my fingers. "If anyone wants to know where I am, I'm tracking down every Olympian in order to pass on a message from Hephaestaean."

"What message is that?"

'New King, new order of business', something like that.

"That he expects them to start pulling their weight. Excuse me."

Hand to forehead and

And that message might upset a few of the deities and demi-gods schlepping about. Probably those who have grown accustomed to their leisure,

I'm standing in the forest of Themyscira, not too far from the first place I met Gaea. Quite some distance from the actual sacred grove that forms her temple, but she's the Titaness of Earth. I'm sure that she can manage.

I kneel, laying the palms of my hands on the bare earth.

Plus, you don't want another bout of magical overload like the last time you visited it.

"Gaea, mother of all that lives, I would really appreciate it if you could tell me where I could find the cyclopes. I need to commission some work from them, and they seem to have ducked everyone's detection."

"And you hope that they kept me up to date."

Well, you are their mother, kind of. And I would hope the Cyclopes are good enough boys to keep her informed.

I bow my head as Gaea walks out of the greenery. Or rather her current human-seeming avatar does, I suppose.

"Yes."

Also, given all the things he's been doing for the biosphere, of course she's going to respond in person for him.

"You do not seek conflict with them? You have got rather good at conflict."

"That's not what I want from them. I mean, if it turns out that they've been grinding bones to make bread, there will be conflict."

A reference to the Giant of 'Jack and the Beanstalk'. Nice.

"No, they have not. You may find them on Mount Fuji. The Gods of Japan have taken to commissioning pieces from them."

"Thank you. I shall remain peaceful if at all possible."

...Do I foresee a possible meeting with Susano-o-no-mikoto? And he is a god of Storms.

"See that you do. And please, spend more time with Euanthe. She does not understand the power that she has won without you."

"I will. Thank you again."

Interesting. Does that mean she's more or less squandering her power on what she's been doing?

Okay, that went better than I was expecting. Not even a bit of shouting. Nice that it fell to Menalippe, since the Queen was busy welcoming her daughter home. And some very realistic and logical concerns for the most devout worshippers of the Olympians. Now, how will the Cyclopes respond to OL's visit? I'm sure we'll see soon enough.

Vaermina · Apr 21, 2022

Massgamer said:
Oh, will Paul finally be meeting members of other pantheons now? Wonder how they will take news of a more active Greek pantheon.

Shinto is much more prevalent and has survived the years much more than old Greek worship, but still a minority compared to Abrahamic religions and rare outside of homeland. They might not mind the latter so much, but I am sure they would like it if the people of their homeland worshipped them more.

That's... That's not really how Shinto works... Kami don't really have a desire to be worshiped...

Also... LePaul is the last one who should try and talk to them... Or even go to Japan... Played straight to the way things work in the religion, his level of imbalance is such that even walking past would be enough to corrupt most minor Kami and render Shrine's in need of a full re-location.

Massgamer said:
Was it bending over backwards just to ask where the cyclopes are? I mean, as far as we know its not like she was being bond not to share the information at all and only asked if he planned to seek conflict with them, believing him when he said no since he has given no reason to assume he would and she does think highly of him since he saved one of her daughters.

Gaea was basically Zeus's mother...

Handlewithcare · Apr 21, 2022

Orange Lantern in: Spirited Away, But Can Actually Teleport Back Whenever So Not Really

"This is a really inefficient bathhouse"

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Bonus point: saving a woman from a man's tyranny and abuse. Well, a Goddess, actually, but would an Amazon sweat that detail?

It could show that Paul is willing to fight gods for justice.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Bonus point: Ares humbled and brought low. I doubt the Amazons are going to celebrate openly, but I suspect there will be private laughter.

I'm picturing them going to his temple, pointing at a statie of him and just laughing like idiots.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Double-dipping on War, eh? Though I suspect soldiers in her sphere of influence would become more logical and focused, that's not always a good thing.

Yeah, that way leads to disturbing sociopaths for soldiers.

Chojin Patriarch said:
She's seen too much of war to readily embrace that mindset.

Though she may try to reign in the bloodlust or at least direct it to those that deserve it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Do I foresee a possible meeting with Susano-o-no-mikoto? And he is a god of Storms.

He may be dead, seeing as Lucifer already left and Maze killed Susano before that.

Granted he did show up in the 2016 comic, though that isn't considered canon, but maybe his mother brought him back to life.

rkyeun · Apr 21, 2022

Handlewithcare said:
Orange Lantern in: Spirited Away, But Can Actually Teleport Back Whenever So Not Really

Except he can't remember or say his name, so he's fucked.

Nervaqus987 · Apr 21, 2022

Vaermina said:
Gaea was basically Zeus's mother...

Which didn't stop her from raising Typhon or the Gigantes to overthrow him.

The only thing Gaea's likely to be upset over is that she didn't handpick the guy to take the throne like she did the last two times.

Mr Zoat · Apr 21, 2022

Darko said:
'gotten rather'

Thank you, corrected.

Ngamer11 · Apr 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Why did you want to talk to me in private?"

"Because we know that you bring chaos, that you love Prince Kon and Princess Diana, and that you are a deadly enemy. I was worried that you might have gone to war with all Olympus. Many Amazons were worried that you might do that. Now, I can calm them."

"Okay, but why did you want me to take off my rings?"

"It is a symbol of the avarice spirit. I think it proper that you not speak to her while we talk."

"Ah, okay, but that wouldn't actually stop me. Our souls are bound together."

"Then it just makes it clear to you. And it will remind you that you are mortal. What other changes can we expect?"

I think this is something from Amazon culture that I don't understand. Move on. "Hephaestaean will have a more active role in the world."

I'm a little iffy on Paul still being considered mortal. He's basically half Avarice Elemental as it is, so I would think the Amazons would see him as more demigod or something like that.

Mr Zoat said:
"How will this affect how Amazons feel about me?"

"Most women don't know enough about what you have done today to have decided how they feel. We expect demigod heroes to do great things, but this…"

I nod. "Right. That's fair."

I'm kinda curious as to Paul's reputation among the Amazons now.

Mr Zoat said:
"Gaea, mother of all that lives, I would really appreciate it if you could tell me where I could find the cyclopes. I need to commission some work from them, and they seem to have ducked everyone's detection."

"And you hope that they kept me up to date."

I bow my head as Gaea walks out of the greenery. Or rather her current human-seeming avatar does, I suppose.

"Yes."

"You do not seek conflict with them? You have gotten rather good at conflict."

"That's not what I want from them. I mean, if it turns out that they've been grinding bones to make bread, there will be conflict."

"No, they have not. You may find them on Mount Fuji. The Gods of Japan have taken to commissioning pieces from them."

"Thank you. I shall remain peaceful if at all possible."

"See that you do. And please, spend more time with Euanthe. She does not understand the power that she has won without you."

"I will. Thank you again."

First of all, I'm excited to see Paul interact with a new pantheon. Second, I am now imagining Paul advising Euanthe on what to do now that she's considered a goddess in South America while Accalacans who dislike Paul due to his connection to Alan give him the stink eye. Also, is this possibly a chance for there to be a South American version of the Amazons?

Rafin · Apr 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Hand to forehead and

I'm standing in the forest of Themyscira, not too far from the first place I met Gaea. Quite some distance from the actual sacred grove that forms her temple, but she's the Titaness of Earth. I'm sure that she can manage.

If I recall correctly then Paul teleports through the Honden of Avarice and uses people's desire structures in order to navigate, having nothing like omnivision or other means of orientation. How did he triangulate the exact position of the forest?

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
I'm a little iffy on Paul still being considered mortal. He's basically half Avarice Elemental as it is, so I would think the Amazons would see him as more demigod or something like that

Some already consider him a demigod, but others still may not, or at least consider him to be one but still call him mortal since he technically is a mortal.

Rafin said:
If I recall correctly then Paul teleports through the Honden of Avarice and uses people's desire structures in order to navigate, having nothing like omnivision or other means of orientation. How did he triangulate the exact position of the forest?

He might be using Gaea's desires to guide him.

Duke Long · Apr 21, 2022

Rafin said:
If I recall correctly then Paul teleports through the Honden of Avarice and uses people's desire structures in order to navigate, having nothing like omnivision or other means of orientation. How did he triangulate the exact position of the forest?

Presumably he knows the layout of Themyscira, so he can use his ring to calculate the relative position of the forest and then teleport there. Maybe this imprecise method is why he didn't go straight to the sacred grove.

Bud-E · Apr 21, 2022

Darko said:
He might be using Gaea's desires to guide him.

Gaea is the personification of the Earth itself she is everywhere on the planet at once the person Paul met was just an Avatar her desires shouldn't be able to lead him anywhere right?

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Bud-E said:
Gaea is the personification of the Earth itself she is everywhere on the planet at once the person Paul met was just an Avatar her desires shouldn't be able to lead him anywhere right?

I think he can see lingering desires in certain places, so maybe he tracked down her previous desires when she was there.

WereDragon · Apr 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
And it will remind you that you are mortal.

Not by any reasonable definition.

spend more time with Euanthe. She does not understand the power that she has won without you.

…another matter Paul has been happily ignoring.

Bud-E said:
What does that mean? What does Euanthe think her new powers mean versus what they actually are?

She is the de facto ruler of Brazil and bits of the surrounding countries. The power she doesn't understand is political and social, not mystical.

Mr Zoat · Apr 21, 2022

Rafin said:
If I recall correctly then Paul teleports through the Honden of Avarice and uses people's desire structures in order to navigate, having nothing like omnivision or other means of orientation. How did he triangulate the exact position of the forest?

It doesn't have to be a current desire. Historical desires work nearly as well.

Ngamer11 · Apr 21, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
It doesn't have to be a current desire. Historical desires work nearly as well.

I remember that he did this when looking for the man who trapped Dream. The guy had a desire to conquer Death herself.

Mr Zoat · Apr 21, 2022

Prognostic Hannya said:
Zoat do you have any pictures of Haphaestean? Bc otherwise I'm just going to keep picturing him as Mecha-Hermes.

Ah...

No.

Nothing like that, but no.

Bramble Thorn said:
Ok, what?

To my knowledge, in this story, what the layman calls a soul is what a Malthusan would call a 'Arcane Construct'
A bundle of magic of various affinities shaped into a pattern that is you. As in (to quote Dresden Files) 'you wear your body; you are your soul'

Zeus was a soul that was much larger and more complex than a regular humans soul. So much so that he doesn't really exist in the physical realm? Where gods don't have 'bodies' so much as they have 'avatars' which are more like remote relays on Earth remotely operated from the actual god residing in the thaumosphere. Which is why the avatars power is limited by Faith. More locally present worship acts as a medium for a better connection, allowing more power transmission?

With that system (as I understand it from my read of past story events) being in place, 'brute force disconnecting him' just doesn't make sense, any more than those B movie Frankenstein movies I've watched on Svengali recently that talk about just swapping out his brain like it is no big deal.

Disconnecting Zeus from his soul, when Zeus is his soul, WTF. I mean last episode be learned the first power-up (permanently taking arcane 'matter' from Aether to graft onto himself) sounded like some horrific soul surgery. Taking pieces of Aether's core being to staple onto Zeus. And dangerous enough it ended up killing the donor. Not something you can brute force at all.

Maybe someone with a lot of knowledge and skill could some sort of Fringe (TV series) magical lobotomy on Zeus to cut away his powers but leave the remainder cohesive to still have a personality, but that sounds really out there.

...Or are you saying this sort of thing is easy because the power is actually some sort of magical MANTLE that can be taken off of someone and then tossed onto someone else like a coat? That Help took Zeus's MANTLE of divinity from him turning him into a regular human soul (arcane construct), and could then give that MANTLE to someone else, allowing them to MANTLE Zeus and become the new Greek Sky God?

Is that really how we're rolling now, Future Zoat? Is this some plan to generate free power by making Past 'there are NO Mantles in WTR' Zoat spin in his grave at ever more ludicrous speeds? Explain to me what I'm missing here?

Manners, apparently.

To you remember when the SI assimilated Teekl, cutting Klarion off from the greater part of his self?

Like that.

Whenever Possible · Apr 21, 2022

Wasn't one of Athena's primary epithets "Athena Promachos", which means "Athena, who fights in front"?

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Whenever Possible said:
Wasn't one of Athena's primary epithets "Athena Promachos", which means "Athena, who fights in front"?

Yes, it is but it may not necessarily be true in this story and the writers who wrote that may have been mistaken, or maybe while Athena can fight from the front, she still doesn't have the power to influence bloodlust like Ares does.

ForeverShogo · Apr 21, 2022

Hmm. On finding a replacement patron, I think it's worth at least checking out Jupiter. While there are similarities for what should be rather obvious reasons, there were differences between Jupiter and Zeus that made it seem Jupiter was somewhat more chill. Just from the difference in how he was characterized by the Romans.

Kind of like how, as mentioned, the Greeks didn't really like Ares and saw him mostly as a destructive and destabilizing force. But the Romans loved Mars and viewed him as both a representation of the use of military power to secure peace and as Father of the Roman people. He was also a god of agriculture.

===

Also, there was some stuff about how the Silver City might react to the Greek Gods proselytizing. From what I recall, they probably wouldn't care.

It was already stated at one point in-story that the Silver City doesn't really care about them or their afterlife. Mostly because in their eyes the Greek afterlife isn't permanent, but rather something they consider to be a temporary state of affairs. With the Silver City apparently being the only truly permanent afterlife.

From what I recall, in DC the Silver City is actually the only multiversal afterlife. So I guess if you were to go there after death you'd be able to bump into any other versions of yourself that went there.

Bud-E · Apr 21, 2022

ForeverShogo said:
From what I recall, in DC the Silver City is actually the only multiversal afterlife. So I guess if you were to go there after death you'd be able to bump into any other versions of yourself that went there.

Do you know where this was said? Cause I'd like to read it!

Flightless Man · Apr 21, 2022

I'm imagining Heph now pretty much looks like a Golden big Daddy (with more of a dwemer art style than 50's diver gear).

Pinklestia · Apr 21, 2022

*Escapes both Heaven and Hell.

*Comes back from being killed by being erased from the universe.

Yeah just a mortal.

The MC is as "mortal" as Lobo is.

Coda · Apr 21, 2022

Bramble Thorn said:
Previously, you established godly domains and portfolios aren't jobs, or perks that come with the job.

I think you may be misunderstanding what a mantle is.

A mantle is more than just a bundle of powers. A mantle has metaphysical weight, inextricably linked with some fundamental concept. It comes with near-absolute authority over that domain and imparts some level of responsibility (depending on who's writing, even to the level of compulsion or even identity erasure). It can only be borne by one individual at a time, and it's fairly easily transferable -- something as simple as death is enough to pass it to someone else. Usually, it must be borne by someone.

That is a far more specific thing than the general concept of a divine domain or divine portfolio. In this story, multiple gods can have the same domain. Defeating a god doesn't grant you their power; depending on the nature of the god and the nature of their metaphysical relationship to their domain, this could mean that the defeat of the god leaves the domain uncontrolled or chaotic or even destroyed and inaccessible, or it could just mean that the domain will continue on along its natural course. And new gods can rise up and gain a portfolio without taking power away from anyone else.

It's possible for a sufficiently powerful effect to interfere with a god's metaphysical connection to their domain. You can metaphysically alter the god's nature, or you could cut off the god's access to their well of power without actually disconnecting them from their domain. The latter appears to be what happened here -- Zeus IS still associated with weather, but he doesn't have the mojo to manipulate it until Hephaestaean removes the restriction.

Indeed, if it WERE a mantle, then we wouldn't be having the current conflict! Zeus's defeat and disconnection from his domain would allow his mantle to be passed on to someone else, and Captain Marvel wouldn't be cut off from the lightning.

Mr Zoat said:
Not any more

anymore

Mr Zoat · Apr 21, 2022

Coda said:
anymore

Her English isn't perfect.

ForeverShogo · Apr 21, 2022

As far back as when the comic creators, Jerry Siegel and Bernard Bailey, first presented it in 1940, in More Fun Comics #52.

It exists "outside the created order of things" and predates the rest of creation. With DC making it exist separately from the multiverse.

Like, every universe in the multiverse that has an Earth with Greek gods has its own version of those gods with its own version of their afterlife. And the same goes for other afterlives. But the Silver City/Heaven? There's just the one and it collects good/just souls from every universe.

Well, at least that's the way it usually was done. The New 52 decided to make it so Heaven wasn't unique like that and made stuff like Apokolips, New Genesis, the Greek Underworld, etc. etc. also exist outside the multiverse. But the New 52 has a lot of stupid shit worth disregarding. Like, did you know that in the New 52 the source of all evil is Earth 3? The Earth with the Crime Syndicate. All the evil in the multiverse originated from there for some dumbass reason.

Darko · Apr 21, 2022

Pinklestia said:
*Escapes both Heaven and Hell.

*Comes back from being killed by being erased from the universe.

Yeah just a mortal.

The MC is as "mortal" as Lobo is.

To be fair, both times he had outside help with that.

ForeverShogo said:
As far back as when the comic creators, Jerry Siegel and Bernard Bailey, first presented it in 1940, in More Fun Comics #52.

It exists "outside the created order of things" and predates the rest of creation. With DC making it exist separately from the multiverse.

Like, every universe in the multiverse that has an Earth with Greek gods has its own version of those gods with its own version of their afterlife. And the same goes for other afterlives. But the Silver City/Heaven? There's just the one and it collects good/just souls from every universe.

Well, at least that's the way it usually was done. The New 52 decided to make it so Heaven wasn't unique like that and made stuff like Apokolips, New Genesis, the Greek Underworld, etc. etc. also exist outside the multiverse. But the New 52 has a lot of stupid shit worth disregarding. Like, did you know that in the New 52 the source of all evil is Earth 3? The Earth with the Crime Syndicate. All the evil in the multiverse originated from there for some dumbass reason.

It's not like the previous era of comic books lacked its own stupid shit.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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