With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[dw7thdoctor]

Since it happened more than a twenty years ago, I think I'm allowed to say that all of the antebellum south is part of the worst of the American Psyche without running afoul of Rule 8.

And... Johnny Reb is just the generic name used for Confederate soldiers, similar to G.I. Joe, Tommy Atkins, or Johnny Turk in other conflicts. The Union equivalent was Billy Yank.

Here's the reference to the split in the comics:


Perhaps of interest is that Uncle Sam is in the select group of people whose memories aren't affected by reality alterations like Crisis on Infinite Earths.

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what is this from?

 

[rkyeun]

Hmm. Is it Rule 8 to talk about something that while it is still happening today started long enough ago that it's over the time limit?

 

[Darko]

Hmm. Is it Rule 8 to talk about something that while it is still happening today started long enough ago that it's over the time limit?

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It's...complicated.

The mods can sometimes issue warnings even if the subject is over 20 years old.

 

[Valint]

what is this from?

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I believe it's from the 2008 reboot of "Uncle Sam & the Freedom Fighters." I got it from a synopsis of the character on another website.

Hmm. Is it Rule 8 to talk about something that while it is still happening today started long enough ago that it's over the time limit?

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I have previously been informed by staff that someone displaying the Confederate Flag as their profile pic was a historical issue not prohibited by Rule 8.

If display of the Confederate Flag is fine, obviously saying "Fuck the Antebellum South. Fuck the Confederacy. Fuck the Confederate Flag." would also similarly be fine.

You know, unless staff are only enforcing Rule 8 based on their personal political beliefs, and I'm sure that would never happen.

 

[Windona]

We are talking about a comic book character, and as everyone knows superhero comics have never ever in their history been political, right?

Don't see how 'the embodiment of a government that existed to preserve slavery over 150 years ago is a bad guy' would be controversial. Especially if canon.

Seriously though, I can easily see Rocket going "huh this totally makes up for how weird things were with Overgirl. Next time you beat up the embodiment of the CSA make sure to invite me!'

 

[Stsword]

Don't see how 'the embodiment of a government that existed to preserve slavery over 150 years ago is a bad guy' would be controversial. Especially if canon.

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You're giving them too much credit.

They didn't want to preserve slavery, they wanted to expand it.

The Confederacy had plans to wage wars of conquest against Mexico and Brazil.

The Knights of the Golden Circle envisioned the conquest of Mexico, Central America, some parts of South America, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, the Carribean, and the West Indies. By the USA before the civil war, by the Confederacy during the Civil War.

Slavers basically wanted the world to be covered by water and slavery, and to achieve that behind the barrel of a gun.

 

[Darko]

Seriously though, I can easily see Rocket going "huh this totally makes up for how weird things were with Overgirl. Next time you beat up the embodiment of the CSA make sure to invite me

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While this would have been a potential danger for her, the sheer symbolism of a black woman fighting and beating a white male slaver would have been a beautiful piece of symbolism and if she won against him then the damage that could be inflicted upon the things Reb represented may have been far greater than whatever damage Paul could inflict.

 

[Karnven]

be the statue of a giant phallu

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If you consider that 'phallic' what the fuck is Big Ben then?

 

[Coda]

No easy way to get rid of kaahuite but I can work on that later.

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Paul, Paul, Paul... Haven't you learned by now that "later" is far too elusive for you to catch up with?

what the fuck is Big Ben then?

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A bell, of course. If anything, that makes it a feminine symbol, especially considering that coming into contact with a rod makes it sing.

 

[Fallen Gods Rise]

If you consider that 'phallic' what the fuck is Big Ben then?

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The English equivalent would probably be Nelson's Column, and with a name like that you can bet we make dick jokes about it as well.

Willy jokes and fart gags
We're British it's what we do

 

[crazygrox]

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly Boss smiley is.

Country spirits think he's the origin of their evil types. Heaven thinks he's a minor demon.

Is it possible for Hell to have a country spirit?

 

[Doccer]

powered kaahuite

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What is this? I'm not seeing it on web searches. And since when does Paul believe in actual Evil? Wasn't he determined to die on that 'no such thing as actual Evil or Evil people or Evil Space Rocks' with Kara?

 

[Darko]

What is this? I'm not seeing it on web searches. And since when does Paul believe in actual Evil? Wasn't he determined to die on that 'no such thing as actual Evil or Evil people or Evil Space Rocks' with Kara?

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Kaahuite is a metal found in Hell and it has anti-Angel, and potentially anti-good properties.

And Paul has used the word evil before.

 

[Windona]

You're giving them too much credit.

They didn't want to preserve slavery, they wanted to expand it.

The Confederacy had plans to wage wars of conquest against Mexico and Brazil.

The Knights of the Golden Circle envisioned the conquest of Mexico, Central America, some parts of South America, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, the Carribean, and the West Indies. By the USA before the civil war, by the Confederacy during the Civil War.

Slavers basically wanted the world to be covered by water and slavery, and the achieve that behind the barrel of a gun.

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Huh, you learn something new every day. Though given that was basically Hitler's playbook decades later it is not shocking.

While this would have been a potential danger for her, the sheer symbolism of a black woman fighting and beating a white male slaver would have been a beautiful piece of symbolism and if she won against him then the damage that could be inflicted upon the things Reb represented may have been far greater than whatever damage Paul could inflict.

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Oh definitely. Rocket is going to wish she had been able to do that.

Actually, that reminds me: I know anti-romanism isn't exactly absent from the US, but the fact Jeb would bring it up is a little??? because I do not recall anything regarding the CSA policy on Romani.

 

[Darko]

Actually, that reminds me: I know anti-romanism isn't exactly absent from the US, but the fact Jeb would bring it up is a little??? because I do not recall anything regarding the CSA policy on Romani

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They might not have had anything specific against the Romani, but they certainly had a lot against anyone they didn't view as white, and a lot of people would not fit their definition, including the Romani.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Don't see how 'the embodiment of a government that existed to preserve slavery over 150 years ago is a bad guy' would be controversial. Especially if canon.

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That's a pretty intense oversimplification of things.

Certainly, slavery was one of the bones of contention* that led to the formation of the Confederacy. But more than anything, it was a matter of States Rights vs Federal Rights. Broadly speaking, the Southern States felt that when it came to an issue of Federal Law saying one thing and State Law saying another, the State Law should take precedence and most especially, that Federal Law shouldn't be able to interfere in matters internal to the State itself. The Northern States, naturally, disagreed.

The matter of western expansion was another major issue because both North and South wanted the new western states to follow their particular party lines to strengthen their positions. It came to a head when Lincoln** won the presidency without a single Southern electoral vote. The Southern States, feeling excluded from the broader political systems, soon seceded from the Union and the Civil War followed.


*In general, it was more the political and economic ramifications of the Northern States being able to go in and abolish slavery than the moral and ethical ones that had the South up in arms.
**Lincoln was a noted anti-slavery politician, but also a moderate accused of not being abolitionist enough.

 

[Stsword]

Actually, that reminds me: I know anti-romanism isn't exactly absent from the US, but the fact Jeb would bring it up is a little??? because I do not recall anything regarding the CSA policy on Romani.

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Nazis and Klan types decided they went together like peanut butter and chocolate decades ago, so as he represents the culture he'd also represent American Nazism.

 

[Duke Long]

re you Scottish?

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The Scots are ruining Scotland! Fucking SNP bastards!

If you consider that 'phallic' what the fuck is Big Ben then?

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Paul has already clarified that he doesn't think the monument is phallic. Rather, the corrupted version of it in this place is literally phallic.

Also, interesting fact which is coincidentally relevant to the current story: I was recently talking to my grandfather, who is an avid board gamer, and the American Civil War is a popular focus of board games (because America). The interesting thing is that according to him, it was only pretty recently that people (at least in the sphere of board games) realised that the Confederacy was kind of bad. Apparently, it was very common for people to think of them as a noble underdog fighting against overwhelming odds.

 

[Khettien]

Actually, that reminds me: I know anti-romanism isn't exactly absent from the US, but the fact Jeb would bring it up is a little??? because I do not recall anything regarding the CSA policy on Romani.

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To understand why, you'd need to do a deep dive into the history of modern ethnic cleansing, i.e. eugenics. Short story VERY short, Romani are generally right up at the top of the list with Jews in the traditional European discrimination.

The Southern States, feeling excluded from the broader political systems, soon seceded from the Union and the Civil War followed.

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I think, but don't quote me on this, there was also the fact the Northern states (New York/New Jersey and Chicago, especially,) were monopolizing factory equipment - to the point of getting legislature blocking import of those goods to other states.

Nazis and Klan types decided they went together like peanut butter and chocolate decades ago, so as he represents the culture he'd also represent American Nazism.

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The true irony there, of course, is that the original National Socialists would haaaaaaate modern Neo-nazis. Too little discipline and sacrifice for the good of the state, you see.

Apparently, it was very common for people to think of them as a noble underdog fighting against overwhelming odds.

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I mean. The CSA WERE the underdogs. The only reason the war went well for them at first is they got the first strike in, and they ran off with Robert E. Lee, who was one of the best military generals of his generation.

Edit: That said, there is nothing inherently moral or superior about being the underdog - as the CSA proved.

 

[Stsword]

The Scots are ruining Scotland! Fucking SNP bastards!


Paul has already clarified that he doesn't think the monument is phallic. Rather, the corrupted version of it in this place is literally phallic.

Also, interesting fact which is coincidentally relevant to the current story: I was recently talking to my grandfather, who is an avid board gamer, and the American Civil War is a popular focus of board games (because America). The interesting thing is that according to him, it was only pretty recently that people (at least in the sphere of board games) realised that the Confederacy was kind of bad. Apparently, it was very common for people to think of them as a noble underdog fighting against overwhelming odds.

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The Lost Cause myth started in 1866, so the whitewashing started a year after the Civil War ended.

That the Confederates were noble people who treated their fellow man humanely who were only defending their homes, instead of child stealing kidnappers and rapists who force bred their fellow human beings for even more human beings to exploit who if they weren't too busy getting their collective asses kicked by the Union would have waged wars of expansion.

Hence the nonsense about states rights when the Confederates openly stated they rebelled for slavery.

"That slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Confederate VP in a public speech.

The leadership of the state of LA- "The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."

 

[hkim]

That's a pretty intense oversimplification of things.

Certainly, slavery was one of the bones of contention* that led to the formation of the Confederacy. But more than anything, it was a matter of States Rights vs Federal Rights. Broadly speaking, the Southern States felt that when it came to an issue of Federal Law saying one thing and State Law saying another, the State Law should take precedence and most especially, that Federal Law shouldn't be able to interfere in matters internal to the State itself. The Northern States, naturally, disagreed.

The matter of western expansion was another major issue because both North and South wanted the new western states to follow their particular party lines to strengthen their positions. It came to a head when Lincoln** won the presidency without a single Southern electoral vote. The Southern States, feeling excluded from the broader political systems, soon seceded from the Union and the Civil War followed.


*In general, it was more the political and economic ramifications of the Northern States being able to go in and abolish slavery than the moral and ethical ones that had the South up in arms.
**Lincoln was a noted anti-slavery politician, but also a moderate accused of not being abolitionist enough.

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lol

 

[Darko]

The true irony there, of course, is that the original National Socialists would haaaaaaate modern Neo-nazis. Too little discipline and sacrifice for the good of the state, you see.

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Ohh, I'm sure that the Neo-Nazis would believe that their inspirations would actually be proud of them and view them as worthy successors and any evidence that would point to the opposite of that will be viewed as just propaganda by Jews and their gay magic, or whatever other crazy thing they start believing.

The Lost Cause myth started in 1866, so the whitewashing started a year after the Civil War ended.

That the Confederates were noble people who treated their fellow man humanely who were only defending their homes, instead of child stealing kidnappers and rapists who force bred their fellow human beings for even more human beings to exploit who if they weren't too busy getting their collective asses kicked by the Union would have waged wars of expansion.

Hence the nonsense about states rights when the Confederates openly stated they rebelled for slavery.

"That slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Confederate VP in a public speech.

The leadership of the state of LA- "The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery."

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Wow.

I knew the whole "states rights" was just a crappy excuse, but wow.

The more you know and all that.

 

[woweed]

That's a pretty intense oversimplification of things.

Certainly, slavery was one of the bones of contention* that led to the formation of the Confederacy. But more than anything, it was a matter of States Rights vs Federal Rights. Broadly speaking, the Southern States felt that when it came to an issue of Federal Law saying one thing and State Law saying another, the State Law should take precedence and most especially, that Federal Law shouldn't be able to interfere in matters internal to the State itself. The Northern States, naturally, disagreed.

The matter of western expansion was another major issue because both North and South wanted the new western states to follow their particular party lines to strengthen their positions. It came to a head when Lincoln** won the presidency without a single Southern electoral vote. The Southern States, feeling excluded from the broader political systems, soon seceded from the Union and the Civil War followed.


*In general, it was more the political and economic ramifications of the Northern States being able to go in and abolish slavery than the moral and ethical ones that had the South up in arms.
**Lincoln was a noted anti-slavery politician, but also a moderate accused of not being abolitionist enough.

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Ha. No. It was about slavery. The various Declarations of Causes of Secession heavily reference slavery and the position of blacks as inferior as causes of secession, with almost no references to the elusive concept of "states' rights" that aren't explicitly tied to these issues. No less an authority then Alexander Stevens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, said in a speech in 1861:

Our new government [...] its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

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The Civil War was about slavery. If it was about state's rights, any contemporary document on the subject would have said so. if it was about state's rights, it's pretty clear it was a VERY specific right they wanted.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The Scots are ruining Scotland! Fucking SNP bastards!

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While I know that the SNP are more than 20 years old and as such not covered by Rule 8 unless you specifically refer to issues that have arisen during that period, recent events have led me to believe that the moderators don't.

 

[Duke Long]

While I know that the SNP are more than 20 years old and as such not covered by Rule 8 unless you specifically refer to issues that have arisen during that period, recent events have led me to believe that the moderators don't.

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While, that's true, and I will stop talking about them, I think there's a pretty decent chance that the moderators have never heard of the SNP.

 

[Nervaqus987]

Ha. No. It was about slavery. The various Declarations of Causes of Secession heavily reference slavery and the position of blacks as inferior as causes of secession, with almost no references to the elusive concept of "states' rights" that aren't explicitly tied to these issues. No less an authority then Alexander Stevens, Vice-President of the Confederacy, said in a speech in 1861:

The Civil War was about slavery. If it was about state's rights, any contemporary document on the subject would have said so. if it was about state's rights, it's pretty clear it was a VERY specific right they wanted.

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Alright, so I just ran through and hunted down a few documents from that time.

Slavery was indeed a bigger motivating factor than I had been led to believe.

Shows me for trusting in my education, I suppose.

The only document I found that supported the States Rights agenda that I was taught was South Carolina's Declarations of the Causes of Secession.

 

[Windona]

Alright, so I just ran through and hunted down a few documents from that time.

Slavery was indeed a bigger motivating factor than I had been led to believe.

Shows me for trusting in my education, I suppose.

The only document I found that supported the States Rights agenda that I was taught was South Carolina's Declarations of the Causes of Secession.

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Yeah, even in my school in what was historically the Union I had a history teacher who mentioned State's Rights. Ignoring that the Confederate States weren't exactly that big on state's rights when they got the Federal government to pass the Fugitive Slave Act.

RE: Romani stuff, I'm not surprised about the racism I'm surprised about the 'should be enslaved' bit. Clearly Jeb was referring to the 'one drop' rule but I didn't think that Roma were slaves in the Confederacy. The US even stopped selling Native Americans as slaves, though I think that was more due to the effects of European disease? (Sorry, biology gal more than US history.)

 

[Stsword]

The US even stopped selling Native Americans as slaves, though I think that was more due to the effects of European disease? (Sorry, biology gal more than US history.)

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From what I read, Amerindian slaves were inconvenient because they were native- They weren't strangers in a strange land, and could escape back to either their own people or another tribe willing to accept a refugee, and the practice risked retaliation from the local Amerindian tribes.

So lacking the local support network and opportunities, Africans were unfortunately easier to victimize.

 

[Valint]

Shows me for trusting in my education, I suppose.

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No matter where you actually live, the textbook you learned history from was probably designed to be used in schools in Texas, due to how large of a market that is.

 

[Cuchulin]

The Irish are British. The British Isles are the islands in the sea north of France. We don't call it Great Britain because it's a wonderful place, we call it that because it's the largest of the British Isles.

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As a American who is about half Irish I strongly object to that! The native language and culture of Ireland was very much separate from that of Britian until the conquest when England tried to destroy the native language and culture. Britain (or some variation there of) has been the name for only one island since it first appeared in recorded history.

You're giving them too much credit.

They didn't want to preserve slavery, they wanted to expand it.

The Confederacy had plans to wage wars of conquest against Mexico and Brazil.

The Knights of the Golden Circle envisioned the conquest of Mexico, Central America, some parts of South America, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, the Carribean, and the West Indies. By the USA before the civil war, by the Confederacy during the Civil War.

Slavers basically wanted the world to be covered by water and slavery, and t0 achieve that behind the barrel of a gun.

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The South had understood for a fairly long time that plantation slavery HAD to expand or it would die choking on it's own waste. In fact from what I have read in states like Virginia most plantations were dependent on selling slaves to plantations further south and west because of diminishing crop yields.