With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Vaermina]

Except the prosecutor might be either OL or Idol, in which case, they're probably as good as most any hired lawyer (for the sake of plot convenience at that point).

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Putting aside how neither Paul nor Idol are employed by the US government as prosecutors.

There's this thing called prosecutorial conflict of interest that would guarantee a mistrial if Paul even attempted it.

 

[lefthandturnsignal]

Honestly, wouldn't it be better to try and charge her for various obstructions of justice/destroying the evidence in this current crime wave rather than the more nebulous 'fighting a superhero with lethal force over international waters'?

 

[ninguem]

Lines and symbols appear on the surface of my constructs, Enochian characters which are supposed to make getting in contact with angels easier. For some reason summoners are much less inclined to call up angels than they are demons, despite the fact that the latter will always try to screw you on the deal. I mean, yes, summoned angels nuked the Resurrection Crusade, but only after they'd had contact with them for a prolonged period of time and after they mucked up a major job. Given how popular monotheism is, it's a little odd that more people don't try it.

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The explanation in the traditions of the Western European and American mysticism, which are the ones that use most the evocation of entities of the Abrahamic religions (such as Hermeticism), is that with demons you can negotiate, with angels, they will judge you by moral actions and precepts, which includes the use of magic to evocate them.

If you follow a life according to the moral precepts expected of the great Abrahamic religions, you are already blessed and protected, so evocations are not necessary, and a prayer already "solves" the problem.

 

[Buggy123]

The explanation in the traditions of the Western European and American mysticism, which are the ones that use most the evocation of entities of the Abrahamic religions (such as Hermeticism), is that with demons you can negotiate, with angels, they will judge you by moral actions and precepts, which includes the use of magic to evocate them.

If you follow a life according to the moral precepts expected of the great Abrahamic religions, you are already blessed and protected, so evocations are not necessary, and a prayer already "solves" the problem.

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The problem is, Angels evidently aren't that proactive. There's been plenty of times when it would've been really handy for them to show up in person, and they don't; like when Fawacett city briefly ended up in Hell, along with everyone living there.

And I don't buy that they were subtly influencing at the time; that is not a situation where you want subtle; if they really wanted to protect people they'd have sent warrior angels to help fight and reverse it. Anything less would be gambling with people's souls, betting that their subtle influence is enough to turn the tide, because I certainly haven't seen evidence indicating that they can predict the future either.

 

[Vaermina]

Honestly, wouldn't it be better to try and charge her for various obstructions of justice/destroying the evidence in this current crime wave rather than the more nebulous 'fighting a superhero with lethal force over international waters'?

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The already listed mitigating circumstances would apply to anything she's done since being forcefully merged with Linda.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I also KNOW that all the other God's are real, which is interesting in and of itself. So why would I believe that the Middle Eastern Hebrew flavored magical sky daddy has precedence?

Because he can? Might makes right? I've read his book, he's a downright evil fuck when he wants to be. Between his abuse of his creations and the fact that he admits to genociding the entire human race, minus the one family he liked apparently. (Of course, many other cultures had boats and such but that's not the point.) I see little difference between this "god" and his supposed evil counterpart "satan."

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You have ignored what I said.
It's not about whether God is good it's about the action being taken.

In the context of the story. Demons have already attacked Fawcett city and ONE of the servants of ONE of the 'God' factions is attempting 'redeem' themselves by trying to get rid of the people who could get it to happen again, assumedly in the city which you live in.

It's not about precedence it's about the purpose and the context of the action being taken, sure if you look at pure actions a woman shooting and killing a man with intent to kill him is first to second-degree murder, however, if we put it into the context of 'He was trying to rape her' then it becomes self-defence. In some places, people have a right to go to the protection of others up to and including committing assault and murder of people who they believe pose a clear and present threat to others.

Also, I think Hell has a little bit more eternal torment for most of its human occupants than heaven.

EDIT:

Honestly, wouldn't it be better to try and charge her for various obstructions of justice/destroying the evidence in this current crime wave rather than the more nebulous 'fighting a superhero with lethal force over international waters'?

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This guy is more on the money I think.

EDIT EDIT:

Well yes but actually no.

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Pretty sure there's some law about people with predetermined ideas about the race of one of the participants of the crime being allowed on the jury.

but that might be a TV lie

 

[Gantradies]

Yea... Paul... No prosecutor in the US is going to charge her... And even if Paul somehow finds one willing to destroy their career by doing so... No Jury would convict her...

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*eyeroll* oh please, can you...just let it go with the constant....

*vauge hand gesture* everything? you seem to have literally nothing but complaints and non-constructive criticism about the story, charicters and settings- i know this isnt exactly the most constructive thing to say, but it IS getting wearing.
the...is condecesion the right word? it doesnt feel quite right, can anyone give me a better word?- it feels like you keep assuming you know Zoat's version of the setting better then he does with the way you keep "correcting" >.<

... ok. could you explain,assuming you arent implying DC North America is a fundamentalist Judo-Chiristian Theocracy,why no Jury in the Entire nation would convict someone who'd confessed to attempted/successful murder for attempted/successful murder?

the reason it gets so grating is you..dont oftern suggest changes or scenarios supporting your viewpoint- just go "X is wrong" or "that will never work, is too powerful OL will get effortlessly stomped/ the operation will fail"with minimum context or supporting infomation, not that you have a tendency to question the Charicters actions per-se, and i think you've been critiqueing like this for literal years now....and its a genuine shame, because when you DONT do this, you've had good/meaningful commentary several times!

.... i came out more flippant/dismissive at the start then i intended. apologies, All-nighter. will redit when im firing on all cylinders instead of one >.<

 

[Buggy123]

*eyeroll* oh please, can you...just let it go with the constant....

*vauge hand gesture* everything? you seem to have literally nothing but complaints and non-constructive criticism about the story, charicters and settings- i know this isnt exactly the most constructive thing to say, but it IS getting wearing.
the...is condecesion the right word? it doesnt feel quite right, can anyone give me a better word?- it feels like you keep assuming you know Zoat's version of the setting better then he does with the way you keep "correcting" >.<

... ok. could you explain ,why no Jury in the Entire nation would convict someone who'd confessed to attempted murder for attempted murder?

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I second all of this; it's getting a bit grating. You could at least have the courtesy of finishing arguments that you start, instead of abandoning them when the opponent actually makes a decent point. Which is most of the time.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

Certainly better than those heathen noodle worshipers.

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Obligatory response follows:
"Kiss my glorious noodly posterior, ya heretic!"

 

[Cuchulin]

Obligatory response follows:
"Kiss my glorious noodly posterior, ya heretic!"

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Blessed be the Flying Spaghetti Monster! May he whip the blasphemous devotees of soup into submission with his noodly appendages and crush them under his mighty meat balls, R'amen!

 

[Coda]

Blessed be the Flying Spaghetti Monster! May he whip the blasphemous devotees of soup into submission with his noodly appendages and crush them under his mighty meat balls, R'amen!

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But...

But ramen IS soup...!

You have common ground, can't we get along?

 

[Vaermina]

... ok. could you explain,assuming you arent implying DC North America is a fundamentalist Judo-Chiristian Theocracy,why no Jury in the Entire nation would convict someone who'd confessed to attempted/successful murder for attempted/successful murder?

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You might want to read the past couple pages where multiple people have talked about the multiple issues with actually doing so...

 

[Chaoswind]

So...if Zoat writes a prosecutor charging her, and then a jury convicts her, what then? Tell us once more how Zoat will be wrong with his own shit, oh all knowing one.

While I can confirm that Religious in the US, southern or not, are pretty insane (often murderously so) that's not quite what matters. This IS Earth 16 and things could be different.

If Zoat writes it, than that's how it is.

I'd convict her in a heartbeat. "I was just following orders" didn't work with the Nazi's and it ain't working now. Not to mention when the Silver City murdered U.S citizens on U.S soil. Ted's resurrection notwithstanding.

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Then it would be inconsistent with everything else and would break SoD, we have many examples of how mental influence is a mitigating factor in both canon and THIS fic.

The only crime Noriel has committed is attempting to burn demon worshippers, but since she was clearly being steered in that direction because the other lady she shares her body with wants to eliminate all the evidence that could incriminate her lover, then she would walk after they are split.

My feelings in regards to everything else don't need to be repeated.

 

[Maelgwyn]

Yes. However, the US doesn't seem to recognise anyone as an enemy soldier when the attack is on US soil. They get classified as an illegal combatant and no protection given to armed forces apply. So I don't think being a deputized agent of a foreign government/non-state religion actually matters.

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Could you provide some examples of this? The last time U.S soil was invaded by an actual state was in WWII, and I don't recall them subjecting those Japanese soldiers invading Alaska to summary executions or the like.

 

[Chaoswind]

You people are letting your dislike of Vaermina cloud your vision.

First fact the things Noriel has done after being forcefully merged with the teenager demon worshipper are so riddled with extenuating circumstances that no one in their sane mind would press charges if they are separated.

Of the crimes Noriel committed before being attacked by demon worshippers IE pretty much only being an illegal immigrant, THAT one was done on her person against her will, so she is a victim of human trafficking and Paul would be our Coyote on this scenario.

Of the "crimes" Noriel committed before getting stabbed by a demonic artifact IE attacking Paul in international waters... Well Themesira isn't a signatory to the treaties of freedom of Navigation, Heaven declared their intent to attack Paul to the world/international courts before doing so, and even declared him a criminal (they are safe) and Paul didn't seek Asylum with any government of earth and instead choose to seek Asylum in hell and was killed there.

At best Paul has enough to take Noriel to themesira to have her judged there for attacking a minor MALE hero, Noriel is FEMALE; I would be VERY surprised if there aren't laws in themesira that would commute whatever sentence she could have gotten just because Noriel is a girl and Paul is a boy.

If there is someone that could face serious jail time, is Linda or whatever her name is...

 

[Coda]

Yes. However, the US doesn't seem to recognise anyone as an enemy soldier when the attack is on US soil. They get classified as an illegal combatant and no protection given to armed forces apply. So I don't think being a deputized agent of a foreign government/non-state religion actually matters.

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Could you provide some examples of this? The last time U.S soil was invaded by an actual state was in WWII, and I don't recall them subjecting those Japanese soldiers invading Alaska to summary executions or the like.

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You're both wrong.

The events of WWII are the REASON the current international policies regarding illegal combatants are in place, so you can't really point to that as evidence one way or the other.

Meanwhile, the rules outlining illegal combatants are pretty clear. All of the following must be true for the combatant to be considered legitimate:
* Was acting on orders given orders by a commander (heavenly kings, check)
* Was displaying an identifying sign (looks like an angel, check)
* Was carrying arms openly (visibly channeling theurgy, check)
* Was following laws and customs of war (debatable, but not in BLATANT violation)

EDIT: That last point is the only one that might apply to attacks made on US soil, but that would only apply because there haven't been declared hostilities. That doesn't appear to apply here, as the angels pretty clearly announced their intent to commence hostilities.

 

[Chaoswind]

* Was following laws and customs of war (debatable, but not in BLATANT violation)

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Heaven informed the international community that Paul had violated the law.

So it also checks, if Paul had seeked Asylum with an UN member nation he would maybe have a leg to stand, but he went to Hell and was killed there, so everything checks out.


If an entity wants to kill someone on international waters, there are only a small number of legal hubs to jump to get it done, that Paul went to hell and was killed there just makes the case easier to judge.

NORIEL has at best a legal problem with Themesira and a few minor crimes in the US and the ones in the US have A LOT of extenuating circumstances.

If Noriel is separated from Linda then the US has no reason to waste time with Noriel, if they aren't separated then Linda crimes would drag Noriel with her.

 

[Khettien]

For some reason summoners are much less inclined to call up angels than they are demons,

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I forget where exactly, but didn't Zoat state earlier that the Silver City is mostly uninterested in doings outside their gates?

As for why demons instead of angels, demons will answer a summoning because they see an opportunity; if angels want to contact a mortal, they'll do so regardless of a summoning, generally, and if the angel doesn't want to talk to that mortal, the summoning is pointless.

 

[Maelgwyn]

You're both wrong.

The events of WWII are the REASON the current international policies regarding illegal combatants are in place, so you can't really point to that as evidence one way or the other.

Meanwhile, the rules outlining illegal combatants are pretty clear. All of the following must be true for the combatant to be considered legitimate:
* Was acting on orders given orders by a commander (heavenly kings, check)
* Was displaying an identifying sign (looks like an angel, check)
* Was carrying arms openly (visibly channeling theurgy, check)
* Was following laws and customs of war (debatable, but not in BLATANT violation)

EDIT: That last point is the only one that might apply to attacks made on US soil, but that would only apply because there haven't been declared hostilities. That doesn't appear to apply here, as the angels pretty clearly announced their intent to commence hostilities.

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...I was actually talking about real life invasions of the U.S for my part, but suppose that in-story you have a point.

 

[Stsword]

I forget where exactly, but didn't Zoat state earlier that the Silver City is mostly uninterested in doings outside their gates?

As for why demons instead of angels, demons will answer a summoning because they see an opportunity; if angels want to contact a mortal, they'll regardless of a summoning, generally, and if the angel doesn't want to talk to that mortal, the summoning is pointless.

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Or the angel gets offended and spontaneous human combustion suddenly becomes more popular, ala the Resurrection Crusade storyline from Constantine.

 

[Buggy123]

You people are letting your dislike of Vaermina cloud your vision.

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I more-or-less agree with Vaermina in this case, it could go either way depending on the fine details of the case but there's a decent chance Noriel wouldn't be convicted. I'm just not particularly inclined to argue for it at length, considering all the times I've argued at length against Vaermina and gotten a prompt response of " ".

Though, I just thought of something. Generally juries are assembled so as to be unbiased, right? Wouldn't the fact that Noriel is a fallen angel basically mean that they'd have to exempt basically anyone with a Abrahamic faith from the jury?

 

[Vaermina]

At best Paul has enough to take Noriel to themesira to have her judged there for attacking a minor MALE hero, Noriel is FEMALE; I would be VERY surprised if there aren't laws in themesira that would commute whatever sentence she could have gotten just because Noriel is a girl and Paul is a boy.

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Would Themyscira even be willing to try Noriel in the first place given the circumstances that reincarnated her and what she is?

I mean... If I was them I would nope the heck out and hand her over to my gods to return home...

 

[Chaoswind]

I more-or-less agree with Vaermina in this case, it could go either way depending on the fine details of the case but there's a decent chance Noriel wouldn't be convicted. I'm just not particularly inclined to argue for it at length, considering all the times I've argued at length against Vaermina and gotten a prompt response of " ".

Though, I just thought of something. Generally juries are assembled so as to be unbiased, right? Wouldn't the fact that Noriel is a fallen angel basically mean that they'd have to exempt basically anyone with a Abrahamic faith from the jury?

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I know, believe me I don't want to agree with him... but even broken clocks are right at times.

Let us do a simple exercise:

On May 22, 2013, the US declares an international manhunt for Edward Snowden and identifies him as a traitor to the nation.

On May 23, 2013, the US carries an operation in North Korea and kills Edward Snowden.

Exactly what is the problem as far as the international community is concerned? There isn't one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panmunjom_Declaration
That was in 2018, so in 2013, the US and North Korea were only under the terms of an armistice.
Everyone knows Hell and Heaven are at war; by going to Hell Paul gave Heaven all the legitimacy they needed to lawfully kill him (and they didn't need much).

 

[Vorian]

Though, I just thought of something. Generally juries are assembled so as to be unbiased, right? Wouldn't the fact that Noriel is a fallen angel basically mean that they'd have to exempt basically anyone with a Abrahamic faith from the jury?

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That and anyone with a dislike for Abrahamic faiths. Not an easy task.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

You have ignored what I said.
It's not about whether God is good it's about the action being taken.

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I don't care.

In the context of the story. Demons have already attacked Fawcett city and ONE of the servants of ONE of the 'God' factions is attempting 'redeem' themselves by trying to get rid of the people who could get it to happen again, assumedly in the city which you live in.

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Yep, and there was the Silver city, sitting on it's ass and doing nothing about it.

It's not about precedence it's about the purpose and the context of the action being taken, sure if you look at pure actions a woman shooting and killing a man with intent to kill him is first to second-degree murder, however, if we put it into the context of 'He was trying to rape her' then it becomes self-defence. In some places, people have a right to go to the protection of others up to and including committing assault and murder of people who they believe pose a clear and present threat to others.

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I fail to see what any of that has to do with the statement that, because christianity, absolutely no one would prosecute her, no jury would convict her, and if that ever DID happen, the judge would simply overturn it.

A valiant effort

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Oh you poor soul. One does not simply argue with Vaermina.

Then it would be inconsistent with everything else and would break SoD, we have many examples of how mental influence is a mitigating factor in both canon and THIS fic.

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It would? Wow, I guess that explains why completely innocent people have been put on trial, convicted on flimsy evidence, and then executed.

My point being, Vaermina came in with the usual "This cannot happen because I say so." to which I have to reply, "So what happens if Zoat writes it?"

Because the idea that this woman could NEVER be put on trial, or convicted, or that conviction be allowed to stand, all because "muh christianity" is something I think this entire work has been subverting since it began. I can't help but notice that OL is NOT being hunted by every follower of Abrahamic mythology on the planet.

The only crime Noriel has committed is attempting to burn demon worshippers, but since she was clearly being steered in that direction because the other lady she shares her body with wants to eliminate all the evidence that could incriminate her lover, then she would walk after they are split.

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The absolute level of "I don't give a fuck." that I currently have is incredible.

Maybe she could be acquitted in a fair trial. That's perfectly reasonable. Her not even getting a trial solely because of her connection to the Silver city, and Vaermina stating it to be so, is what I'm calling bullshit on.

 

[Gantradies]

I more-or-less agree with Vaermina in this case, it could go either way depending on the fine details of the case but there's a decent chance Noriel wouldn't be convicted. I'm just not particularly inclined to argue for it at length, considering all the times I've argued at length against Vaermina and gotten a prompt response of " ".

Though, I just thought of something. Generally juries are assembled so as to be unbiased, right? Wouldn't the fact that Noriel is a fallen angel basically mean that they'd have to exempt basically anyone with a Abrahamic faith from the jury?

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... that's a good question.and a big potential problem regarding bias- working out the demographics to minimise bias in either direction would be a NIGHTMARE if you think about it given how potentially charged the nature of the defendant would be, and I'm not just thinking from a judeo-Christian viewpoint- you'd have folks assuming she's part of a hostile/manipulative alien group, people assuming she's a malign entity trying to lead believers of their own faith astray- eurgh. Would not want the job of working out who to summon to jury duty for that one..

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I don't care.

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the statement that, because Christianity, absolutely no one would prosecute her, no jury would convict her, and if that ever DID happen, the judge would simply overturn it.

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Christianity has a god as you are aware.
as well as being 'involved' with such affairs there it could be argued that an angel (even a fallen one with its mind being messed with) has a better idea of how much of a threat demon worshippers are to the 'flock' than a beat cop or even a pagan superhero who knows high-level magic casters because deities.
No jury that can reasonably be expected to be allowed in court would convict them. (barring word of Zoat)

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Christianity has a god as you are aware.

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It's been mentioned to me a time or two yes.

as well as being 'involved' with such affairs there it could be argued that an angel (even a fallen one with its mind being messed with) has a better idea of how much of a threat demon worshippers are to the 'flock' than a beat cop or even a pagan superhero who knows high-level magic casters because deities.

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Anything can be argued. Someone once argued that hot coffee that can scald you if you spill it on yourself, is somehow the fault of place that made you the hot coffee you asked for.

She has still committed crimes and interfered with a police investigation.

No jury that can reasonably be expected to be allowed in court would convict them. (barring word of Zoat)

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I know 12 people right now who would not let her so called angel status get in the way of a rightful conviction should the evidence support it.

Barring that, if you are right, then I guess OL should just splatter her brains right now.

 

[Gantradies]

It's been mentioned to me a time or two yes.

Anything can be argued. Someone once argued that hot coffee that can scald you if you spill it on yourself, is somehow the fault of place that made you the hot coffee you asked for.

She has still committed crimes and interfered with a police investigation.

I know 12 people right now who would not let her so called angel status get in the way of a rightful conviction should the evidence support it.

Barring that, if you are right, then I guess OL should just splatter her brains right now.

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To be entirely Fair, Max, the coffee one is a somewhat of a bad example- multiple-degree burns, and they were keeping it significantly hotter then they needed to/really should-by the time she got the clothing it's soaked into off..... it's one of those cases that sounds ridiculous at first until you look- it wasn't as frivolous as popular memory tends to assume- there were actual medical expenses,including skin grafts innvolved, if memory serves correct.


*edit* agree that the "no jury" claims are a little ridiculous- regardless of what she is, the law still applies-though determining what level of influence she was under will likely be a legal CF, especially given that the lower-mid-rankin denizens if the silver city alledgedly have compromised decision making/self-determination to start with...

if you ask me there should be SOME level of diplomatic consequences for the Assasination (and the collateral damage at Kord, resurrections or not- I mayy be projecting, but I'm fairly certain ID be a basket case after dying, being brought back, and told "oops, sorry, we made a mistake, gotta go now!"), but I'll be buggered if I have any idea what...

 

[Maxx Crowley]

To be entirely Fair, Max, the coffee one is a somewhat of a bad example- multiple-degree burns, and they were keeping it significantly hotter then they needed to/really should-by the time she got the clothing it's soaked into off..... it's one of those cases that sounds ridiculous at first until you look- it wasn't as frivolous as popular memory tends to assume- there were actual medical expenses,including skin grafts innvolved, if memory serves correct

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Fine, how about the guy who sued Anheiser-Busch for $10,000 for false advertising. He claimed to suffer from emotional distress in addition to mental and physical injury. Why? Because when he drank beer, he didn't have any luck with the ladies, as promised in the TV ads. Harris also didn't like that he got sick sometimes after he drank.