With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mquz]

Paul needed help to deal with Klarion and Dr Fate, so if LoC Constantine and the other John ersatz LoO aren't more powerful than Paul already, it's just a matter of time, I'd imagine.

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They're not the most powerful. Magic tends to be either versatile, or powerful, but not both from what has been shown (not counting slow / ritual magic). Dr Fate's ankhs can hold things and blast things, but that's less than Paul's ring. The ring can be both simultaneously. Also, magic is useless when it comes to global threats that you can't even go off planet to fight due to there not being a magical field outside the atmosphere.

He might be talking about intergalactic influence, in which case he is definitely the most powerful.


The one that really does deserve a mention, since he was called the strongest hero in the world in Renegade-verse time ago, is the Shade, who arguably IS a Superhero, but who never showed his powers, so she wouldn't know how powerful he is.

If we're going by Superheroes she knows, you'd really have to mention the Green Lanterns are at his normal power level, though it might have been shown they are a bit weaker.

Really, the only time Paul is the most powerful is when he's combined with the Ophidian. His power compared to The Shade can still be argued then, but from publicly known heroes, if he's stronger than the green lanterns using their emotional embodiment, he's definitely the most powerful Justice-League affiliated hero. Superman, meanwhile has too many weaknesses, and less strength than a normal well-used power ring in this universe. OL could easily beat him, and has beaten similar opponents.


It would be cool if moments of OL acting weird like this, him being overconfident and arrogant ever since escaping Boss Smiley, are there on purpose due to Boss Smiley having either replaced him with a clone or altered his mental state.

 

[DrThoth]

Vertigo canon maybe, but that got hit with the retcon stick when it joined with the rest of DC and now the Silver City is the final destination of all souls in the DC multiverse.

That said, that's not what I was talking about, I was talking about how anything he might be able to tell her she would already know.

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This setting clearly doesn't care about or include New 52/Earth Prime continuity, and even if it did, past events in the fic contradict current DC canon in terms of humans being destined for the Silver City. Out of curiosity, does 'all souls' include aliens and humans who don't worship the Source/Presence/Abrahamic God?

I believe you quoted the part about 'Noriel' wanting to go to the Silver City upon her death, and Paragon's mental response to that about not being possible- granted, she might still be thinking more like an Angel than a human. In addition, there are a lot of things Paragon knows that 'Noriel' wouldn't, such as Asmodel's deception and collaboration with Neron, the captured humans being used as siphons of Source power, the current political situation of Hell (though granted, you were talking specifically about the Silver City so the last one isn't fully relevant).

Actually now that I think about it, they might be able to invoke the actual Noriel and interact with her, though I'm not sure how helpful that would be - angelic summoning would still be interesting to see; it might not show up in fiction a lot (I can only think of Good Omens, though it isn't really a mortal calling upon an angel) but I believe it was a part of real-life occult traditions (the Ars Goetia is followed by another book about angels, after all) and possibly a non-annoying and productive action monotheistic characters in the story could do, such as the Congregation.

 

[SH2009]

Is Linda/Noriel talking about OL or Kal-El? It would be amusing if she corrected him and he had to suppress a lecture on why he was the most powerful.

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I'm still hung up on whether Linda/Noriel thinks Superman is the most powerful hero because she doesn't know what Orange Lantern is capable of (He turned the freekin' moon around on a whim, or so it might seem), or because she doesn't consider Orange Lantern to be a hero. Either perspective is interesting.

 

[Baladar]

Is Linda/Noriel talking about OL or Kal-El? It would be amusing if she corrected him and he had to suppress a lecture on why he was the most powerful.

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Probably Supes. OL can take him, but I doubt many people realize that.

 

[Silveraith]

I hesitates.

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This should be singular given that it is a first person perspective.

 

[Coda]

go all burning bush on demons

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I mean... unless demon magic helps protect from STDs, that's an entirely possible outcome.

That's because it does... Which is why you need to get rid of food when it spoils...

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I think the point was specifically having it in a tin would cause it to become poisonous, independent of spoilage. It's true that certain tin-containing chemical compounds are dangerously toxic in sufficient amounts, but the fact that we sell food stored in cans and people don't get sick from it should pretty blatantly indicate that the belief is fallacious.

And even if that wasn't enough evidence for a person holding that belief... (1) Food cans aren't actually made of tin anymore. (2) When food cans WERE made of tin they were lacquered to avoid having the metal react with the food. (3) When food cans were made of tin and NOT lacquered people still didn't get sick from tin poisoning because it takes a lot of tin to make you sick and the chemical process would stop once the inner surface of the can had been reacted.

What other forums options does Zoat still have to move on to? I know he has done it twice already.

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I mean, I'm already hosting a wiki for WTR. Worst case scenario, I spin up an instance of XenForo somewhere and we have our own forum with blackjack and hookers.

 

[Chaoswind]

I'm still hung up on whether Linda/Noriel thinks Superman is the most powerful hero because she doesn't know what Orange Lantern is capable of (He turned the freekin' moon around on a whim, or so it might seem), or because she doesn't consider Orange Lantern to be a hero. Either perspective is interesting.

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Probably the second, Paul didn't hold back and killed her in cold blood with a demonic artifact that as far as he knew would have soul killed her, and if i remember the scene in question, he did so not because she was a true threat, but because it was more expedient and he didn't want to waste time in his rush to run towards hell.

Paul is almost certainly not a hero, on his best days he isn't even an anti-hero, he is one of the largest mass murderes currently alive among the human race, probably only outdone by the likes of Vandal savage (and certainly he had a lot more time to pile the bodies). Paul IS a self interested villain, he just has very utilitarian interest and a particular frame of mind of how things should be achieved.

 

[Aeess]

Probably Supes. OL can take him, but I doubt many people realize that.

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I am not sure how Paul could defeat Superman without prep time or the Ophidian, considering that Superman carries a radiation shield and Paul doesn't use offensive magic.

 

[Coda]

largest human mass murderes currently alive

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His human body count is pretty low. On Earth, he is a hero.

Unless you mean he's the most prolific murderer among humans, instead of the most prolific murderer of humans.

I am not sure how Paul could defeat Superman without prep time or the Ophidian, considering that Superman carries a radiation shield and Paul doesn't use offensive magic.

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Being a Lantern means he can MAKE prep time. He would lose in a direct brawl, but if it comes down to a direct brawl then that means he's already done something wrong.

 

[Aeess]

Being a Lantern means he can MAKE prep time. He would lose in a direct brawl, but if it comes down to a direct brawl then that means he's already done something wrong.

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You cant use prep time to talk about who the most powerful is though, like nothing stops Kon from blasting Pauls head off when he sleeps, but you wouldn't say that Kon is more powerful than him.

 

[DrThoth]

Probably the second, Paul didn't hold back and killed her in cold blood with a demonic artifact that as far as he knew would have soul killed her, and if i remember the scene in question, he did so not because she was a true threat, but because it was more expedient and he didn't want to waste time in his rush to run towards hell.

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I believe he'd already seen that the First of the Fallen was fine albeit depowered at this point in the story, so I don't think cessation of existence was really a potential outcome in his mind.

His mindset is very ruthless and based around enlightened self-interest, yes, but I'd still call him an anti-hero rather than a villain- I admire his seeming competence and effectiveness more than his morality though, so I'll admit it's very subjective.

 

[Buggy123]

Probably the second, Paul didn't hold back and killed her in cold blood with a demonic artifact that as far as he knew would have soul killed her, and if i remember the scene in question, he did so not because she was a true threat, but because it was more expedient and he didn't want to waste time in his rush to run towards hell.

Paul is almost certainly not a hero, on his best days he isn't even an anti-hero, he is one of the largest mass murderes currently alive among the human race, probably only outdone by the likes of Vandal savage (and certainly he had a lot more time to pile the bodies). Paul IS a self interested villain, he just has very utilitarian interest and a particular frame of mind of how things should be achieved.

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I agree with pretty much everything here. The only thing I disagree with is a bit of your definition here. He's a villain... by your standards.

All of what you said, except for that definition issue, is true. Nonetheless, he's firmly a hero in my book. Moreso than most others, actually.

 

[DrThoth]

I am not sure how Paul could defeat Superman without prep time or the Ophidian, considering that Superman carries a radiation shield and Paul doesn't use offensive magic.

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I'm not sure what technology Superman is using for the radiation shield but I seem to remember Paragon actually helping create it, and even if he didn't I think a power ring could probably bypass it-after that he can just generate Kryptonite radiation.
He also has his esoteric orange light manipulation, which I'd say is similar to magic, just using a different source than ambient mana/arcane fields. I don't think Superman's Kryptonian powers would prevent assimilation or branding, though we've seen Kryptonian technology that can resist constructs. Paragon would potentially consume the solar energy straight from Superman's cells.
Another option is using the kinetic belt to trap him; it worked on Wonder Woman in canon and would probably work on him too, though he still has his heat vision.
The episode/story arc Rampage shows some other mechanisms Paragon could employ against yellow sun-empowered Kryptonians too, I believe.

 

[Pinklestia]

She could become an author. Her memoirs about the Silver City would probably be one of the best selling books of all time.

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And get her shot unless she doesn't publish it under her real name.

Honestly this whole Heaven Arc has been boring compared to what Grayven has been done.

 

[Siskulous]

So fair warning. I'm catching up on the last week.

Yes, but if angels can be evil, can demons be good?

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Gone! Gone! Oh form of man
And rise the demon Etrigan!

Need I say more?

It'd be like a polygraph, which is legal.

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Polygraphs are only sort-of legal. Yes, police can use them in the course of an investigation, but they're inadmissible in court. Mind you that's mostly because they're unreliable, a problem that a halfway-decent truth spell wouldn't have, but until the law catches up to the reality of truth spells they'd probably be considered equivalent.

I'm still hung up on whether Linda/Noriel thinks Superman is the most powerful hero because she doesn't know what Orange Lantern is capable of (He turned the freekin' moon around on a whim, or so it might seem), or because she doesn't consider Orange Lantern to be a hero. Either perspective is interesting.

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First, Superman could easily turn the moon around on a whim. Wouldn't, but could. In context of their power levels, it's not really an impressive feat for either of them. It might have been for OL when he did it, but he's MUCH more powerful now. At this point he could do that without Ophidian's help. And Superman? Psh. Superman can tow galaxies around if he has a good enough reason. Turning a moon around doesn't even rate.

But back to the main point, I don't think many people on Earth would consider OL to be more powerful than Superman. And even as a reader looking in, I'd put them about equal. Sure, OL has versatility that puts Superman to shame, but Superman....well, we've not seen his peak in either this story or in YJ since he's not a main character in either, so I'm going to assume comic book peak. Which means he can tow around galaxies and tank multiple simultaneous supernovae. OL's versatility would win in a fight, but not because he's actually more powerful. He's just got better ways to cheat.

 

[Mr Zoat]

First, Superman could easily turn the moon around on a whim.

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Linda, you want to field this one?

I'm going to assume comic book peak. Which means he can tow around galaxies and tank multiple simultaneous supernovae.

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Don't.

 

[DrThoth]

And get her shot unless she doesn't publish it under her real name.

Honestly this whole Heaven Arc has been boring compared to what Grayven has been done.

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I didn't really care about Renegade and the Kryptonian ship or Black Manta interactions, but I enjoy his exploits in Hellblazer-Britain, his talk show segments, the Martian civil war storyline and his possible alliance/interactions with Morgaine le Fay, who would probably fit in reasonably well in Apokaliptian society. He also seems a bit more adult than Paragon, likely due to having children to care for and not masquerading as a barely-legal teenager.

I wonder if Renegade will interact with Hell (or Heaven) at some point. Could New God tech/abilities be used to sanctify places like the Silver City does? Mister Miracle was able to counter some of Karrien's curses on Paragon after all. Renegade might be too Apokaliptian but he has New Genesis allies.

On a tangent, has Renegade actually done anything about his relatively recent dislike for assimilating sapient beings? I'm mostly fine with him leaving the former Light members in that state but he was already regretting Nabu's state even before his exposure to and recovery from Anti-Life. He might be self-serving enough to let things remain as they are for fear of dealing with a new and possibly hostile Lord of Order (though he still has the Sword of the Fallen, I believe, as well as mystically powerful support, so I wouldn't say that would be justified). It would be nice to see Mister Zatara of that timeline take some moral initiative and seek a way to free or mercy-kill Nabu- he should be learned enough to realize what assimilation actually is, and ethical enough to address it even if it's not the most utilitarian course of action.

The primary reason I sometimes enjoy the Renegade timeline more is that he's actually resolved a lot of the issues that trouble him or his plans, and not just in his early reckless immediate-results MO. Paragon seems to be much more scattered, and there are so many dangling plot threads that could be addressed in the first updates of every new story arc (as has been done for a lot of different topics on occasion) or deserve follow-up. Key examples include the Religion of Crime and Anti-Life use on Earth; missing mystically enhanced Starros; no desire to commune with Oceanus or Titans after Titanfall, just quoting Discworld about having to be for Olympians or Titans, which seems far too binary a mindset for Paragon. It's egregious because early Paragon and indeed other parts of the story were all about exploring the implications of canonical events and expanding their impact on the world, and that aspect has kind of fallen by the wayside for a while.

 

[Aeess]

I think a power ring could probably bypass it-after that he can just generate Kryptonite radiation.

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I think a radiation shield generator as part of his costume would be protected by his force-field(and if lanterns could get past that it would be ridiculously easy for them to defeat kryptonians)

He also has his esoteric orange light manipulation, which I'd say is similar to magic, just using a different source than ambient mana/arcane fields. I don't think Superman's Kryptonian powers would prevent assimilation or branding

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I seriously doubt Superman is greedy enough that assimilation or branding is viable in a fight, especially since I doubt that Paul could want it enough when Superman looks like his best friend. If Paul attempted it Superman would most likely be able to take him out fast enough.

Paragon would potentially consume the solar energy straight from Superman's cells.

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Kryptonians dont work like that here, they dont use solar energy but rather contact to sunlight allows them to manipulate nuclear force, not to mention that they always had to use red sunlight to depower Kryptonians before.

Another option is using the kinetic belt to trap him; it worked on Wonder Woman in canon and would probably work on him too, though he still has his heat vision.

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That is actually something I overlooked, but its more something that gives him a chance to beat Superman without preparation, instead of a reason why I would say he can take him.

 

[Vaermina]

Do you ever provide citations or do you just say whatever and hope people will take your word for it?

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The Spectre... Paradise Lost... Day of Judgement... The official multiverse map...

 

[Buggy123]

The Spectre... Paradise Lost... Day of Judgement... The official multiverse map...

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All of what you're saying may, or may not, be true for current DC canon. I am not knowledgeable to comment on the interpretation.

However, like all DC canon, Zoat has his own independent chimera universe composed of various bits of other DC canon haphazardly glued together, the main portion of which was a snapshot of Young Justice around the start of the first season. He then took this universe, which was crazy nonsense that works well if you don't stare at it too long (like all DC canon), and added someone who wasn't nonsense and took things from there, adding in bits of other universes into gaps as he deemed it convenient.

Chronology and further, independent, evolution of these universes is irrelevant; Zoat hasn't even included some things from Young Justice that already existed when he started writing WTR. He takes canon from when he damn well pleases, as he damn well pleases, does whatever damn well pleases him to that canon, and then uses it as it pleases him, damn.

I mean for fucks sake, he basically said "I think the direction canon's gone in the past half-decade is so stupid that it's dead to me, good riddance.". You're lambasting him over minor details that were changed, either by him, or by DC itself? Well fine, but it's stupid and annoying, so stop.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I mean for fucks sake, he basically said "I think the direction canon's gone in the past half-decade is so stupid that it's dead to me, good riddance.". You're lambasting him over minor details that were changed, either by him, or by DC itself? Well fine, but it's stupid and annoying, so stop.

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It's binned, along with post-School of Friendship MLP:FiM, post-Legends Star Wars, post 5th edition Warhammer 40,000, post End Times Warhammer, kids on my lawn...

 

[Mquz]

Superman-wise, this version was confirmed to have no FTL flying speed or anywhere close, fairly weak super-strength - he can possibly lift some buildings, but find it hard, but not move planets. Regardless, Paul could probably drain his radiation shield - which isn't all that powerful as far as battery capacity, then kryptonite him. More than that, Paul mentioned that it doesn't protect against things like Kryptonite bullets - it specifically only protects from small radioactive particles coming from outside the shield. Paul could literally just synthesize Kryptonite and physically move it inside the shield.

 

[Pinklestia]

I wonder if Renegade will interact with Hell (or Heaven) at some point.

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They probably will avoid him for the same reason they avoid Darkseid. Too much of a headache.

Besides the New Gods are technically part of the Norse Panteon, kind off? Or the Greek one? Only instead of staying on Earth they went to space or something... Because... who the fucks knows? The whole thing is confusing.

 

[Stsword]

They're not the most powerful. Magic tends to be either versatile, or powerful, but not both from what has been shown (not counting slow / ritual magic). Dr Fate's ankhs can hold things and blast things, but that's less than Paul's ring. The ring can be both simultaneously. Also, magic is useless when it comes to global threats that you can't even go off planet to fight due to there not being a magical field outside the atmosphere.

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Except for Lords. Or Zatanna with the staff of love, which allows her to power her magic from the emotional spectrum.

The Lords have a continuous tie to Chaos or Order.

Did you forget all the trouble Paul had to go to get Nabu's magic count low enough that he lost consciousness? Under normal circumstances Lords don't run out of mojo.

And according to Zoat, Lords retain their connection to Chaos or Order where ever they are, so they can use their magic just fine in outer space. Which would be how Nabu made it from the planet Cilia to Earth.

So Lords combine the versatility of magic with a self replenishing energy source which will run out when the concepts of Order or Chaos cease to exist in the universe.

Which is why both Paul and Gravy's standard operating procedure when dealing with a Lord is to cheat.

And now both Constantine ,and through the helmet, the Other John, now combine all their magical knowledge with self renewing energy to power every magic trick they know.

 

[Itypeslow]

I have Noriel's perspective on her crimes.

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Given the context I assume this is supposed to be Linda's perspective.

 

[Mquz]

Except for Lords. Or Zatanna with the staff of love, which allows her to power her magic from the emotional spectrum.

The Lords have a continuous tie to Chaos or Order.

Did you forget all the trouble Paul had to go to get Nabu's magic count low enough that he lost consciousness? Under normal circumstances Lords don't run out of mojo.

And according to Zoat, Lords retain their connection to Chaos or Order where ever they are, so they can use their magic just fine in outer space. Which would be how Nabu made it from the planet Cilia to Earth.

So Lords combine the versatility of magic with a self replenishing energy source which will run out when the concepts of Order or Chaos cease to exist in the universe.

Which is why both Paul and Gravy's standard operating procedure when dealing with a Lord is to cheat.

And now both Constantine ,and through the helmet, the Other John, now combine all their magical knowledge with self renewing energy to power every magic trick they know.

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Makes sense , but there's the caveat being that the lords were hard to beat mainly because they made themselves unhurtable by conventional means. OL could probably have beaten Fate, but he didn't want to hurt Zatara, so the fight became one of attrition, where Paul couldn't directly hurt Fate, but did succeed in leading him to having his magic scrambled. Likewise, the chaos Lord in Rene-verse required to be beaten by someone outside of destiny, so Power levels are hard to judge, since he used stealthy methods to kill him - and even then it didn't work and he was reborn powerless and treated to an unspecified fate worse than death by the people he previously controlled. If I remember correctly, Renegade didn't have much trouble beating Klarion, the only Lord that has been fought in this fic on even ground without any excessive preparation, and he's gotten better since then. Paragon Klarion was also not fought directly primarily because they wanted to steal his power.

Since they were actually just really tough to kill, as opposed to easily killing OL, power levels are a bit hard to tell, with OL possibly being in the lead due to, unlike the Lords, not having a noticeable cast time on non-cantrip attacks. Fate didn't really show anything OL couldn't counter, but for the fact that he couldn't attack him in almost any way. Your comment about being able to fight in space still stands, but power level is at the very least more questionable than is obvious. The problem isn't that they run out of power, but that they haven't yet been shown to use anything OL couldn't counter in some way, either by avoiding or blocking, but they didn't apparently have fair shields to stop OL's best attacks at the current moment. Their only real advantage over him is that they don't rely on ring charge, so they win in battles of attrition where they can't be properly attacked.

By that measure, you might as well say that Deadman is the most powerful DC hero due to his invulnerability to most things.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Well...Now I'm just trying to find the part where Grayven found the reborn depowered Klarion. Proving...difficult.

 

[Ganurath]

Well...Now I'm just trying to find the part where Grayven found the reborn depowered Klarion. Proving...difficult.

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It was recently posted in QQ's Story Only thread. Search the most recent pages for Mordru, since I remember Grayven checked on him immediately after... Found it.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

It was recently posted in QQ's Story Only thread. Search the most recent pages for Mordru, since I remember Grayven checked on him immediately after... Found it.

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Thanks.

Though I am annoyed that you were able to do that so easily when I searched for an hour.

 

[Ganurath]

Thanks.

Though I am annoyed that you were able to do that so easily when I searched for an hour.

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By recently, I meant this weekend, and I take the time to read it when I'm not racing Twilight666 to get the first Like in. It was fresh in my mind.