With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Gantradies]

You don't understand Owlman in the slightest...

He built and planned to use the bomb because he was driven insane by a brief glimpse of infinity.

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and he was stupid/crazy enough to take evidence that choice/free will was a thing (near-paralell universes based off diferent choices were a thing as well as more wildly divergent ones like the Antimatter universes- ect) meant that free will wasnt, and the only way to act on his own was to try to murder the endtire multiverse >.<

he was...kinda in that intersecting zone between being incredibly smart, and mind-numbingly dense, if you ask me....

... you also have a point with the Star Sapphire- it.. is kinda Cavileer giving it away to someone in another universe entirely IF he hasnt done his research first- it makes me think of .nevermind, potential spoiler for a recent movie >.<
even if its not a FULL-on cosmic keystone/ on the level of an emotional power battery, its a pretty powerful artifact to give away so quickly/in a manner where getting it BACK could be...unweildy if a more urgant use comes up

 

[Simonbob]

Yes, but people were talking about things like fixing world hunger, and pointing out that Wayne not only has the money - but the resources as well. He CAN afford to give jobs at a temporary loss to third world countries in a way that improves their way of life and not makes it worse. He can also afford to defend the companies he makes from enemies in those countries. He can also afford to feed everyone there. Heck, he could probably find a way to make those countries self-sufficient as far as food goes.

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My point was, that regardless of the money he has, no, he can't.

If he starts to do that kind of thing, he'll run into the issue that my mother ran into, when she and her friends gave money to a school for girls in Pakistan.

After years of this, the charity sent somebody over to see what was going on, only to find that the school, billed as girls only, was in fact only teaching boys. The local culture made this inevitable.

How are you going to fix the culture, the millions of people, who simply don't think the way you want them to? Over time, if you are willing to depose rulers who fight you, and are willing to kill the most stubborn adherants, perhaps?

I'll be honest. I don't know how to fix cultures like that. I just know that, even today, with all the tech and money, gifts of food and examples of how to do better, Africa remains Africa, and starvation is something that can, and does still happen there. So does slavery.

No matter how powerful a company, people have to live their own lives. The boss can have infulence, but only to a point.

 

[Chaoswind]

I put the...

[briefly froths at the mouth]

The Nu52 version as an example of an evil Themyscira. Themyscira -14 isn't actually like that.

Thank you, corrected.

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You said the Titans won the battle in this universe, so Hercules is the legitimate son of Uranus when he shagged and married a mortal girl?

 

[Mr Zoat]

You said the Titans won the battle in this universe, so Hercules is the legitimate son of Uranus when he shagged and married a mortal girl?

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Dunno. Is he?

 

[NeoDarklight]

Isn't Whizzer from Marvel comics as one of the Secret Six or something? I vaguely recall there being a Whizzer in the 90s Spider-Man show where he fought in WW2.

On another note, am I the only one who thinks that Baul might have possibly deliberately set events up so that the Crime Syndicate would have been taken down while he was away?

 

[Maxx Crowley]

That, uh, is not a good idea. Affirming her self-identity right now could be almost as toxic as overloading her with Violet energy.

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Everything is a bad idea. Clearly the status quo must be maintained at all cost.

So the most likely explanation is simply that you're wrong,

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Vaermina? The fountain from which all knowledge flows....somehow wrong?

No...no that just couldn't be.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Isn't Whizzer from Marvel comics as one of the Secret Six or something? I vaguely recall there being a Whizzer in the 90s Spider-Man show where he fought in WW2.

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Yes, the picture used is of an old Marvel character, as is the name. It's not the same man.

 

[Senevri]

I think that was retconned to be fake memories.

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The idea that WW has never been back to Themyscira after she left, is a lot stupid but also a little bit cool.

 

[l---erddad---l]

Everything is a bad idea. Clearly the status quo must be maintained at all cost.

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Except that all Willpower does is reinforce your own thoughts, opinions and general self-identity. Sure, if you get Willpower Enlightenment it might loop back around, but otherwise it just reinforces what you already are. For Zatanna, that would be prohibitive for her being able to rationally think about her attraction to Paul and change her mind.

Mind, Paul shouldn't take it either: It definitely wouldn't do anything good for him to be even more stubborn about his opinions.

 

[Siskulous]

At the very least Lex Luthor burns more money than him on fighting Superman.

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I'm not so sure about that. In some continuities Batman paid for the Watchtower out of pocket (the Justice League cartoon is one - Wonder Woman asks him how much it's costing and he says he doesn't like to think about it). To put that in perspective, the ISS - which absolutely minuscule compared to the Watchtower - cost $150 billion to build. Which means the Watchtower, in the continuities where it was built by Earthlings, had to have cost at least $500 billion and probably closer to a trillion dollars. I don't think there's a continuity where Lex or Lexcorp even has those kinds of resources to throw around.

And yes, I'm aware that in Zoat's continuity Batman didn't pay for it, but it still serves as an example of the kind of money Bruce Wayne throws at his personal obsession.

That sure looks like a no-limits fallacy to me. We already know Bruce donates shedloads to charity and social improvement. If it's not changing the world, maybe it's because even his money can't do everything, in-universe. He already has enough trouble just helping Gotham.

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The no-limits fallacy is only a fallacy in real life. In fiction the limits are only what the authors want them to be. If DC were logically consistent then Bruce Wayne working through Wayne Enterprises has none. Of course, DC is very, very far from logically consistent, so your argument may (probably does) have merit.

 

[Cuchulin]

I'm not so sure about that. In some continuities Batman paid for the Watchtower out of pocket (the Justice League cartoon is one - Wonder Woman asks him how much it's costing and he says he doesn't like to think about it). To put that in perspective, the ISS - which absolutely minuscule compared to the Watchtower - cost $150 billion to build. Which means the Watchtower, in the continuities where it was built by Earthlings, had to have cost at least $500 billion and probably closer to a trillion dollars. I don't think there's a continuity where Lex or Lexcorp even has those kinds of resources to throw around.
And yes, I'm aware that in Zoat's continuity Batman didn't pay for it, but it still serves as an example of the kind of money Bruce Wayne throws at his personal obsession.

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A lot of that $150 billion is getting the materials and people to put it together in orbit, Bruce can have Clark, J'onn, Green Lanterns and others move the parts into orbit then put much of it together which will cut down on costs. He also has access to Alien Tech to make things easier.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Some Corrections Mr Zoat, although most of it are changes to American spelling.

Spoiler: Corrections

American spelling is 'armor' and 'armored'.




American spelling is 'favorite' and 'realize'.




American spelling is 'civilization' and 'revolutionize'.



American spelling is 'realized'.



This should be: 'Made an impression on them as well'.



American spelling is 'armor'.



Missing letter here, so: 'putting his face in the perfect position'.






I'm not sure (nor can I remember right now) if Nabu and/or Mister Zatara speak American English, if they do then it should be 'recognizes', 'endeavor' (twice) and 'utilized'. If not, then disregard this.



Missing quotation mark at the end here.



Not sure, but I think this should have a question mark at the end?



I think this is missing a word, maybe 'You know some tiny part of our credo'?



Extraneous word, should be 'It wants to show you more'.



And this one is missing one, 'Oh love to some is like a cloud'. Unless Grayven was singing wrong in both these occasions.





American spelling is 'realize'.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Vaermina]

You really, really need to stop bringing in every niche continuity from every corner of the DC verse as evidence. Zoat is using a very small selection of continuities, handpicking attributes from them, flat out writing his own continuity at some points, and ignoring or outright denying the existence of others.

The fact that some continuity does X has about as much bearing on the story as the weekly temperature forecast in Liberia.


That aside, OL is a empath, and from what we've seen of embodiments they tend to be a bit... energetic. When the Ophidian was sitting inside OL's ring, he had a few minutes until it violently exploded from the strain. Not to mention that you could tell just by looking at it that there was a energy field inside it, and that energy field was way bigger than anyone's head. And when the Ophidian took up residence in his lantern, it glowed intensely.

If the (primitive, compared to a power ring/lantern) Star Sapphire had the Predator in it, it'd be glowing up a storm as indicated by how embodiments and the storing thereof has been shown to work in ZOAT'S universe. Not to mention that, for a empath, it'd probably be a bit like staring into the sun. And also not to mention, that, while working to build a containment system to safely channel its energy, OL and (IIRC) Constantine probably would've noticed things like "Holy shit, this crystal has enough power in it to move planets!". And also also not to mention that OL is experienced enough with Emotional Spectrum technology to build his own (admittedly crude) lantern as a demonstration.

Just because you haven't appealed to the relevant authority does not mean you can't be reasonably sure of something. I'm fairly certain my computer doesn't have any plutonium in it, but hey, I haven't checked with a nuclear regulator, so how would I know? It could be filled with plutonium, even though I've opened it up a few times for maintenance and new parts. You never know!

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You might want to look up the meaning of the word "dormant".

Also primitive =/= less powerful.

And lol at you calling the main continuity "niche".

 

[Buggy123]

You might want to look up the meaning of the word "dormant".

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I'm not convinced that you could make a emotional embodiment that weak/small enough without killing it. "Not doing things/inactive" is not the same thing as "literally 1/100th its former size/power".

Also primitive =/= less powerful.

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It could certainly mean it's less stable, considering the reaction of anyone who grabs (but doesn't put on) a orange ring is "Huh, I didn't realize these came in orange", and the reaction of anyone who grabs a Star Sapphire is "LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE ME LOVE ME!!!". Guess which of these does a better job of safely containing emotional energy.

And lol at you calling the main continuity "niche".

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Certainly seems niche, I've hardly seen it mentioned at all here. It certainly hasn't been used in the story, so yeah, niche.

 

[Mquz]

My point was, that regardless of the money he has, no, he can't.

If he starts to do that kind of thing, he'll run into the issue that my mother ran into, when she and her friends gave money to a school for girls in Pakistan.

After years of this, the charity sent somebody over to see what was going on, only to find that the school, billed as girls only, was in fact only teaching boys. The local culture made this inevitable.

How are you going to fix the culture, the millions of people, who simply don't think the way you want them to? Over time, if you are willing to depose rulers who fight you, and are willing to kill the most stubborn adherants, perhaps?

I'll be honest. I don't know how to fix cultures like that. I just know that, even today, with all the tech and money, gifts of food and examples of how to do better, Africa remains Africa, and starvation is something that can, and does still happen there. So does slavery.

No matter how powerful a company, people have to live their own lives. The boss can have infulence, but only to a point.

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This might seem a little colonialistic, but what your group did by just giving resources without ensuring they are going where you want is just reinforcing the culture. What really needs to happen in situations like this is American-controlled schools that, for example, give benefits to families for getting their daughters educated. And make sure there is no scam happening. Also, availability of corporate / service jobs for females specifically in those countries is important. You need to somehow incentivize specifically women working instead of staying at home, so that a feminist movement develops. In the US, this only happened due to the lack of men due to the World Wars. There might be a way to copy this by paying women more than men, or giving them service / salesman jobs or something along those lines, so that the cultural norm no longer makes as much sense to them. In real life, that takes a lot more money and power than a simple charity has. Bruce Wayne has a corporate entity, which might actually be able to help with the problem by helping change hiring practices.

 

[Siskulous]

My point was, that regardless of the money he has, no, he can't.

If he starts to do that kind of thing, he'll run into the issue that my mother ran into, when she and her friends gave money to a school for girls in Pakistan.

After years of this, the charity sent somebody over to see what was going on, only to find that the school, billed as girls only, was in fact only teaching boys. The local culture made this inevitable.

How are you going to fix the culture, the millions of people, who simply don't think the way you want them to? Over time, if you are willing to depose rulers who fight you, and are willing to kill the most stubborn adherants, perhaps?

I'll be honest. I don't know how to fix cultures like that. I just know that, even today, with all the tech and money, gifts of food and examples of how to do better, Africa remains Africa, and starvation is something that can, and does still happen there. So does slavery.

No matter how powerful a company, people have to live their own lives. The boss can have infulence, but only to a point.

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Just throwing money at a problem without paying attention to where the money is going like that is always going to have that problem. That's why most people who are big on charity strongly suggest looking into a charity and what they do with your money BEFORE you give them money rather than after like your mother did. One poorly managed charity does not in any way demonstrate that properly applied money cannot effect major cultural changes.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Except that all Willpower does is reinforce your own thoughts, opinions and general self-identity. Sure, if you get Willpower Enlightenment it might loop back around, but otherwise it just reinforces what you already are. For Zatanna, that would be prohibitive for her being able to rationally think about her attraction to Paul and change her mind.

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Like I said, Everything is a bad idea. Maintain the status quo.

Lord knows, all decisions must be made to contain a teenage girl's throbbing vagina for her Orange daddy.

Or, you know, she could....and I know this is really far out there, but she could, just maybe, GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

 

[Siskulous]

Or, you know, she could....and I know this is really far out there, but she could, just maybe, GET THE FUCK OVER IT

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Realistically much harder than it sounds. If people could just "get over it" then unrequited love wouldn't be a thing because who the hell wants to be in that situation? Though you are right. It's not going to happen, he's made it clear that it's not going to happen, the only halfway decent thing for her to do is to move on as best she can.

 

[Cuchulin]

Just throwing money at a problem without paying attention to where the money is going like that is always going to have that problem. That's why most people who are big on charity strongly suggest looking into a charity and what they do with your money BEFORE you give them money rather than after like your mother did. One poorly managed charity does not in any way demonstrate that properly applied money cannot effect major cultural changes.

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Agreed, from what I have heard a lot of "charities" are little more than tax shelters at best and quite a few have proven to basically be just scams.

 

[EvenMaster80]

Like I said, Everything is a bad idea. Maintain the status quo.

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Or, you know, she could....and I know this is really far out there, but she could, just maybe, GET THE FUCK OVER IT.

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The point l—-erddad—-l made against using the Green Power Gauntlet is that the use of it would be detrimental to Zatanna's growth; it would be reenforcing her current mindset, which currently isn't desirable for anybody. For her to overcome this problem and use green willpower non-destructively, she will first need to get over her problems and become a stronger person.

The point he is making is in favor of breaking this "status quo" (whatever that means in the context of Zatanna's internal struggle). The only way I can possibly see Zatanna not utilizing the gauntlet as "status quo" is that it would a be missed opportunity to cause trouble.

Personally, I just want Zatanna to get over this, she needs to grow, using the green light would just drag out this problem even longer.

 

[Vaermina]

I'm not convinced that you could make a emotional embodiment that weak/small enough without killing it. "Not doing things/inactive" is not the same thing as "literally 1/100th its former size/power".

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Size is an illusion...

It could certainly mean it's less stable, considering the reaction of anyone who grabs (but doesn't put on) a orange ring is "Huh, I didn't realize these came in orange", and the reaction of anyone who grabs a Star Sapphire is "LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE ME LOVE ME!!!". Guess which of these does a better job of safely containing emotional energy.

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Zoat massively nerfed the mental effects of orange rings so his character could use it and massively increased the mental effects of the Star Sapphire so he could make relationship jokes.

Certainly seems niche, I've hardly seen it mentioned at all here. It certainly hasn't been used in the story, so yeah, niche.

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Of course not, because Paul's short sighted and it never even occurred to him to investigate any of the emotional entities.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Of course not, because Paul's short sighted and it never even occurred to him to investigate any of the emotional entities.

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I'm just going to go ahead and point out that not only are there not enough hours in the day for OL to do every single solitary thing that someone in the forum has bitched about him not doing, but also that any time he started doing one of them, someone would bitch about him not doing another. OH and it would be really fucking boring to read.

Realistically much harder than it sounds. If people could just "get over it" then unrequited love wouldn't be a thing because who the hell wants to be in that situation? Though you are right. It's not going to happen, he's made it clear that it's not going to happen, the only halfway decent thing for her to do is to move on as best she can.

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I'm just thoroughly sick of the sheer amount of fussing Zatanna is continuing to receive. Seriously, a god damn girl with a crush is not the center of the fucking universe.

At this point, I'm seriously rooting for the billion to one long shot that Zoat just kills her off.

 

[Buggy123]

Size is an illusion...

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No, no it isn't. And aside from that, I said "size/power". Emotional Embodiments are energy beings, beings with bodies made of energy which isn't bound by the same rules as matter. So yes, in a literal sense, they have no fixed size. But it's common to indirectly state how strong/powerful something is by describing how large it is, because in many cases bigger=stronger. It's perfectly reasonable to extend this figure of speech to things that don't strictly have a size, even if it doesn't make literal sense.

Also, again, I said "size" "/" "power". As in, size and/or power. Even if you think size is some sort of illusion, the other half of that statement still stands.

And going back to that "body made of energy" thing; making a Embodiment weak enough to fit in something like a Star Sapphire without exploding would mean reducing it to a teeny fraction of its full power. How well do you think anything survives having 99% of its body destroyed? From what we've seen in the fic, that generally results in brain death or complete dissolution of energy beings.

Zoat massively nerfed the mental effects of orange rings so his character could use it and massively increased the mental effects of the Star Sapphire so he could make relationship jokes.

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Okay, and your point is?

Zoat's universe is Zoat's universe. You think most DC writers don't liberally interpret and/or completely make up a lot of the shit they throw into their own comics?

And these differences you're pointing out just make it all the more clear that niche DC canon does not apply here.

Of course not, because Paul's short sighted and it never even occurred to him to investigate any of the emotional entities.

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Or, he's making the reasonable decision that you can't investigate literally everything to make sure that the universe doesn't fucking explode, because if it was that easy then it probably would've exploded on its own by now.

Also, again, because you seem to have ignored it the first time I said it: Paul tried investigating some of the things that he did regularly, to see if there was any sort of risk associated. Not only was everything he checked perfectly fine, but the Controller who was helping him, one of the most knowledgeable beings in the universe, called him STUPID for being so concerned about nothing.

If that isn't a crystal clear indicator that he is doing exactly the correct amount of investigation into the risks of his activities, I don't know what is.

 

[Vaermina]

I'm just going to go ahead and point out that not only are there not enough hours in the day for OL to do every single solitary thing that someone in the forum has bitched about him not doing, but also that any time he started doing one of them, someone would bitch about him not doing another. OH and it would be really fucking boring to read.

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There's this thing called "Prioritizing" that people do...

Or, he's making the reasonable decision that you can't investigate literally everything to make sure that the universe doesn't fucking explode, because if it was that easy then it probably would've exploded on its own by now.

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That's one heck of a straw man argument you have there..

 

[EvenMaster80]

That's one heck of a red herring.

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That's one heck of a straw man argument you have there..

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Can an you please admit defeat, if the Predator was in the Star Sapphire they had, I'm pretty sure they'd have known. He's had it for longer than a year and it has been used by Zatanna since before Klarion's death. Even if he didn't notice it (which would be impossible at this point), I'm pretty sure Dame Carrol Ferris, a TRAINED STAR SAPPHIRE, would have noticed the EMBODIMENT OF LOVE in the thing.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

There's this thing called "Prioritizing" that people do...

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Yeah sure, and the second he investigates one thing, you'll call him a fucking idiot and grump about how he's not doing some other thing first. Or that he's too stupid to do it right. Or that whatever he did, while appearing to be correct, was actually stupid and is going to cause no end to problems.

I really hope you never wonder why no one on the boards ever takes you seriously Vaermina, even on the rare times you actually have a point.

That's one heck of a straw man argument you have there..

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I have seen you literally tell Zoat that he is wrong about something he himself created.

 

[Buggy123]

There's this thing called "Prioritizing" that people do...

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Yes, and he's doing it quite well apparently, because he's doing lots of things and keeping good track of their consequences, to the point that when he tried to pay more attention to the consequences, it was obviously and significantly detrimental to his ability to do anything else.

That's one heck of a straw man argument you have there..

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It's really not, actually, because you are actively accusing OL of doing something that would destroy a entire universe. The only difference is "everything" vs "the Star Sapphire", and how would he have any idea that the Star Sapphire, specifically, would be a danger when he regularly uses shit like bleed tech and brand new, unheard-of pseudo-magical Orange Light techniques?

If he wanted to be so certain that nothing he did was any more of a danger than the artifact that he worked with extensively
The artifact that two close colleagues from different fields of expertise have personally examined or used for months
The artifact that he just handed to a expert on the very technology it is made of
Well, he'd just have to check damn well everything he does to make sure none of it has some incredibly obscure risk of destroying the entire universe in some strange and extremely specific scenario.

 

[lefthandturnsignal]

Not to mention that when they were first experimenting with the star sapphire OL himself commented that it was similar to a personal lantern without the emotional spectrum safety features, just a crack in the universe letting the element of love through. It's definitely not a light fountain or central power battery or embodiment containment vessel or anything bad to take out of the universe.

 

[Vaermina]

Yeah sure, and the second he investigates one thing, you'll call him a fucking idiot and grump about how he's not doing some other thing first. Or that he's too stupid to do it right. Or that whatever he did, while appearing to be correct, was actually stupid and is going to cause no end to problems.

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Hey, it's not my fault Paul minimal efforts almost everything he does.

I really hope you never wonder why no one on the boards ever takes you seriously Vaermina, even on the rare times you actually have a point.

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They're free not too, but it doesn't change me being right.

I have seen you literally tell Zoat that he is wrong about something he himself created.

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Do we need a list about the times Zoat has forgotten stuff he has previously included in his fic in the years since he's started?

Because that would be pretty lengthy.

 

[Buggy123]

Hey, it's not my fault Paul minimal efforts almost everything he does.

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Except he doesn't, for reasons I have expounded on repeatedly, in extra-large font.

They're free not too, but it doesn't change me being right.

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I take you quite seriously, if anything I'd say the opposite is true; you take none of us seriously. It seems to me that you ignore counterarguments to nitpick at insignificant details, change topics whenever possible, and drop any argument the moment there's any significant evidence opposing it.

To the point of, for instance, completely ignoring a reasonably comprehensive argument taking up a entire paragraph, to nitpick at a single word. As much as I prefer QQ, I must admit that having a "spaghetti posting" rule would be awfully convenient right now.

Do we need a list about the times Zoat has forgotten stuff he has previously included in his fic in the years since he's started?

Because that would be pretty lengthy.

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Absolutely! Do please provide such a list; it'll either be great evidence against you, or quite entertaining. Win/win.