With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[FreeGod]

I did get a kick out of this update standing as a shinning example of something I've said before.

When OL faces villains, they tens to tank everything he throws their way, often requiring calling in just the right character for help.

When OL faces heroes, he tends to run right over them.

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Mostly because heroes's powers and abilities tend to be well known so Paul is better able to prepare in advance.

 

[Valint]

The fundamental difference in what you're proposing is a 'Comic Book Solution.' If you want to say that, because this world is a variant of DC, it should be treated with Comic Book logic, that's fine, but it's the author's decision whether to treat it as a comic book or a realistic world with people who happen to be able to fly and throw buses with the personalities of famous fictional heroes and villains from our world.

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"A group of supervillains who are evil doppelgangers of heroes have doomsday weapons" is a 'Comic Book Problem', so sure, I'm proposing a 'Comic Book Solution'.

That's not an OCP for the Justice League. That's Tuesday. This isn't some "How do we deal with the introduction of new technology that radically reshapes the world's economy?" type of problem that's completely outside their wheelhouse. This is the kind of problem that righteous face-punching has been dealing with for decades.

They leave without preparing the world for their absence. They don't establish a long-term solution. Instead, they fix the immediate symptoms. The situation Paul has been appointed to fix is the extermination of an entire sector of society and the possibility of a long and bloody civil war. He's doing his best to actually fix that problem, one which the JL would only exacerbate badly.

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Wow. You're getting an awful lot out of their plans and intentions by them simply walking in.

What you are essentially saying is that the Justice League is fundamentally incapable of dealing with a group of supervillains armed with doomsday weapons, so just their basic presence demands that they be taken down, and taken down hard, so that they don't interfere with the plans of someone who really knows how to solve the problem.

Now, I think that's nonsensical. However, if Paul is saying that, I think he's necessarily saying that this is his world now, and anyone who steps into it better toe his line, and if he's saying that, he owns this solution. It's no longer "Eh, l'm doing the best I can with the limited amount of fucks I give about these people", it means that it's now his responsibility to actually fix things, since he's appointed himself the person in charge of deciding how things get fixed.

To me, the mindset Paul has here would say that, back in Paul's world, the Justice League should have given in to the Injustice League, the Light, and any other organization powerful enough to cause collateral damage in the course of dealing with them. It's the mindset that says that, if the Justice League knew that Paul was going to sneak into Eden or kill Nabu, that they'd be justified in taking him down to make sure he doesn't overestimate his abilities and fuck things up.

Talon's right that Paul wouldn't put up with that on his world.

 

[Chaoswind]

"A group of supervillains who are evil doppelgangers of heroes have doomsday weapons" is a 'Comic Book Problem', so sure, I'm proposing a 'Comic Book Solution'.

That's not an OCP for the Justice League. That's Tuesday. This isn't some "How do we deal with the introduction of new technology that radically reshapes the world's economy?" type of problem that's completely outside their wheelhouse. This is the kind of problem that righteous face-punching has been dealing with for decades.



Wow. You're getting an awful lot out of their plans and intentions by them simply walking in.

What you are essentially saying is that the Justice League is fundamentally incapable of dealing with a group of supervillains armed with doomsday weapons, so just their basic presence demands that they be taken down, and taken down hard, so that they don't interfere with the plans of someone who really knows how to solve the problem.

Now, I think that's nonsensical. However, if Paul is saying that, I think he's necessarily saying that this is his world now, and anyone who steps into it better toe his line, and if he's saying that, he owns this solution. It's no longer "Eh, l'm doing the best I can with the limited amount of fucks I give about these people", it means that it's now his responsibility to actually fix things, since he's appointed himself the person in charge of deciding how things get fixed.

To me, the mindset Paul has here would say that, back in Paul's world, the Justice League should have given in to the Injustice League, the Light, and any other organization powerful enough to cause collateral damage in the course of dealing with them. It's the mindset that says that, if the Justice League knew that Paul was going to sneak into Eden or kill Nabu, that they'd be justified in taking him down to make sure he doesn't overestimate his abilities and fuck things up.

Talon's right that Paul wouldn't put up with that on his world.

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Yes and that is exactly the kind of person Paul is, his cost value assessment is slanted to give the Syndicate more leeway because he has interacted with them the most, the justice underground had the perfect opportunity to get him on their side and they wasted it. Paul morals cannot get in the way of how he will always favor HIS people HIS in group.

In this world Paul doesn't give a fuck about anyone beyond the detached cost assessment of his utilitarianism, but he has interacted with the Syndicate the most thus they get a bonus multiplier to their value in his cost analysis.


Also remember that after the ludicrous number of sophons Paul has killed, he told Alan he would try to kill less people, I don't doubt Paul a few months ago would have killed a lot of people to settle the issues plaguing Earth - 14, but Paul bowed to be better now.

 

[lefthandturnsignal]

I hope OL gives them a report on what their weaknesses are and how to cover them most effectively.

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I'm kind of expecting a copy of a bunch of justice league databases from earth-16 as a farewell present to the earth-12 version.

 

[AverusBlack]

ITT: People who don't understand the concept of character development

You might have had a point if he'd done this within 3 months of having the ring. At this point you're just not thinking it through and whining because you didn't think it through.

 

[Megaolix]

After some recent posts, going to ask for a bit more civility here, people.

 

[Vaermina]

Also, the kryptonite question is kind of moot becuase he could always just use 'red sun lasers' which seem to be a constant across universes, irregardless of some odder continuity details.

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Sure that might have worked if Superman didn't dodge it, but Zoat didn't do that.

Instead Paul used something that shouldn't have worked within the rules of the Universe but did because Zoat decided to write that it did.

 

[Queshire]

And he can do that.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

And he can do that.

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But don't you understand. It makes Vaermina unhappy.

Which might be less meaningless if Vaermina wasn't ALWAYS unhappy about something.

Like, remember that time when Zoat completely BROKE with DC canon and made it so Orange Power rings DON'T automatically drive the wearer insane with greed? Ruined the whole story right there.

And now here he is, SHARING, by god, SHARING, the orange light with others. Canonically IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Lazurman]

Sure that might have worked if Superman didn't dodge it, but Zoat didn't do that.

Instead Paul used something that shouldn't have worked within the rules of the Universe but did because Zoat decided to write that it did.

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Spoiler: Quote from Crisis on Two Earths

Ultraman: Did you forget who I am? How I get to be the boss of bosses? I'm here because I'm the baddest of the bad. Anybody whoever stood in my way is dead. Everybody.
Lex Luthor: I brought you a present.
Ultraman: Blue kryptonite.
Lex Luthor: The only thing that can hurt you.
Ultraman: But I...
Lex Luthor: Destroyed the last piece on Earth? True. But I've been visiting other Earths.

What are the rules of the universe, Vaermina? Tell me, what are they? What's your source? How do you know what is a law of reality for this work of derivative fanfiction written by someone who isn't a member of DC's comic book writing staff, and what is not?

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Again with this shit. I fail to see how losing a fight is going to promote "growth".

Plus we already have WoZ that all that would accomplish is OL devoting time to being able to counter whatever he lost to.

Finally, OL was shut down and murdered by the Silver city, and other then taking Boss Smiley's words to heart, OL remains the same.

You can't get any more "teeth kicked in" than being KILLED.

Probably true, but being in the Light, or just the Light in general have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

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Grayven shenanigans started when he infiltrated the light and Batman was like "umm, why are you speaking with criminals?" and Grayven said "I'm investigating Don't worry" and batman said "Oh ok I understand" and left him to it.
it kinda spiralled out of control from their

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Grayven shenanigans started when he infiltrated the light and Batman was like "umm, why are you speaking with criminals?" and Grayven said "I'm investigating Don't worry" and batman said "Oh ok I understand" and left him to it.
it kinda spiralled out of control from their

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Yes, but I was talking about the whole "Yeah, I looked like a 19 year old English boy, but I was actually a giant, gray new-god son of the biggest villain in this comic universe." Thing.

 

[Lord Ernest]

Talon's right that Paul wouldn't put up with that on his world.

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Wait, not to argue on your other points because I do believe they have some degree of reason, but the Illustres is putting up with that in Earth 16: that's the Light.

In fact, even Grayven put up with them, during long months if I recall. He infiltrated them, sure, became one of them, he may have had the thought of trying to guide them through a better path but I, personally, always believed that he was going to take them down (what with his interactions with Vandal Savage and how he reacted to Mordru). In fact, he did so good a job of passing as a member that even his girlfriend believed it. But at the end, it took some serious time and the coordination of a lot of governments to take that organization down without massive casualties.

In the Illustres' case he's still putting up with them. He has only attacked or taken down members that he planned to take down, and after some serious research time of how to take them down and not fuck up the aftermath (Satanus for example), or that were indirectly/circumstantial (like Orm and/or Ra's).

 

[Stsword]

Also, the kryptonite question is kind of moot becuase he could always just use 'red sun lasers' which seem to be a constant across universes, irregardless of some odder continuity details.

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It shouldn't be.

Depending on the kryptonian, red sun takes away their powers, or it doesn't refuel their powers so they might run out of mojo a couple of weeks later, or it does absolutely nothing because their powers aren't actually powered powered by a yellow sun to begin with, or it may be somewhat more effective because some of the kryptonian's powers come from being a heavy gravity worlder regardless of the sun in the sky.

On Earth-2 it was specifically stated that Superman's powers come from Krypton having heavier gravity than Earth, while later he developed the full range of Kryptonian powers that are solar powered, zap Power Girl with red sun radiation, and the "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" are just from her muscles being that much better than a human's, ala John Carter of Mars.

Not that the authors remembered that when Superboy Prime fought Kal-L. Sigh.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Not that the authors remembered that when Superboy Prime fought Kal-L. Sigh.

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I often wonder if comic companies have a continuity department, as they sadly need one. Or if they have one, but just don't care.

From my small Marvel experience, I can tell you that nothing tends to send certain writers into a frothing rage faster then being told "You can't do that because historical reason X."

 

[Coda]

(SOs having mysteriously crippling gastro problems is not fun)

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Ugh, tell me about it. My wife has been intensely nauseated for over a month now, with no obvious cause and no obvious cure. We know it's at least related to IBS, and we've been doing our best to manage the symptoms, but there seems to be a 50/50 chance that she'll puke on any given day.

I often wonder if comic companies have a continuity department, as they sadly need one.

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Some franchises do. It would appear that none of those are employed with DC.

 

[Queshire]

If ya'll are interested then the series writers bible for Batman: The Animated Series has been floating around for a few years now. (Link to an article) Young Justice and the Justice League cartoon almost inevitably have / had bibles of their own, and I wouldn't be surprised if comics do as well. A series bible sets the core guidelines of a series. They make sure people are hitting the right tone. Noticeably, they are not a massive list of all canon or whether or not kryptonite works on a kryptonian from a different dimension.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Some franchises do. It would appear that none of those are employed with DC.

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Surprising, considering continuity being fucked all to hell is what has caused them to reboot the entire universe...more then once.

Edit: I've mentioned before, but I remember reading once that after a survey was done, DC found out that most of the famous storylines of theirs that people could mention....were all non-canon Elseworlds.

I DO know, from hearing it myself, that at least one Marvel writer around...2006, blew the fuck up at someone who had apparently reminded them, several times I've gathered, that whatever they were wanting to write was extremely against continuity and that, and I quote, "Fan's WILL notice, and they WILL call us on out it."

 

[Ganurath]

I just had a Slowpoke Moment.

Batman didn't come along because, if Stewart's hair is any indication, they've already been duped into going through an interdimensional portal into a trap by the Justice Lords.

 

[Lazurman]

SupermanweakeningconstructstriketoheadknockbacktakeDiana'spunchonkineticbarrierpullHawkwomanasidewithconstructcoldgunonflash.

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Just noticed this part. 'Flash' should be capitalized there, as a proper name.

 

[Gilhelmi]

I think many, many people are missing the giant spotlight in the sky.....

NEVER LET THE DAM THIEF OUT OF SIGHT!

OL is about to get a dose of humility when Batman (seeing how he did not kill the League, and probably not a threat) sneaks behind Paul and goes "Booo".

Or just punches OL. After all, Orange Rings run on desire and Paul has little desire to fight Earth-12 League. He would have been at a disadvantage if he had not accidentally ambushed the group.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

This is going to make for a fun story time when Paul gets back to 16. I think some people still underestimate him a bit. All six Justice League heavies at once in seconds. I'm sure Batman will be scrutinising the reports and recordings heavily.

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Heh. Have the the report say something like "The Earth 12 Justice League came through the portal, [Specifics REDACTED in anticipation of the next time the JL gets mind controlled or pulls a Nabu], and then they were all neutralized. At that time I had Flash read my report about the aftermath of the half-assed job they did the last time they visited."

 

[Maxx Crowley]

OL is about to get a dose of humility when Batman (seeing how he did not kill the League, and probably not a threat) sneaks behind Paul and goes "Booo".

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I love this. OL manages to incapacitate the Justice League, and out come the accusations of being a Sue.

But fucking BATMAN is just expected to somehow stealth his way past a power ring and take OL with his power of being Batman.

I fucking hate Batman.

Or just punches OL. After all, Orange Rings run on desire and Paul has little desire to fight Earth-12 League. He would have been at a disadvantage if he had not accidentally ambushed the group.

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He also has a strong desire not to get sucker punched. The few times it's happened, his auto shield has absorbed it.

 

[Jirachi]

Wonder what the controllers would think of the speed formula (not the garrick formula, the weird higher dimensional mathematics one).
I'm a bit worried about Alan's mental health, with the whole having to wear the ring to stay healthy thing along with minimal mental precautions about it, especially without a blue central power battery (maybe they should make one?)
(Also, Paul has a bunch of passive defenses that don't rely on his ring that would be a serious impediment to batman.)

 

[Badass6969]

But don't you understand. It makes Vaermina unhappy.

Which might be less meaningless if Vaermina wasn't ALWAYS unhappy about something.

Like, remember that time when Zoat completely BROKE with DC canon and made it so Orange Power rings DON'T automatically drive the wearer insane with greed? Ruined the whole story right there.

And now here he is, SHARING, by god, SHARING, the orange light with others. Canonically IMPOSSIBLE.

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That said, somehow it kinda sounds like Zoat read Ayn Rand's weird thing about how you can logic away selfless acts as actually being "selfish"

 

[Buggy123]

That said, somehow it kinda sounds like Zoat read Ayn Rand's weird thing about how you can logic away selfless acts as actually being "selfish"

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Honestly, It is kinda weird. Personally, I've never read anything from Any Rand, and from what I've heard of it, I certainly wouldn't want to (no 20-page rants and old rich guys going to a island to let society collapse for some inane reason, no thank you).

Yet apparently, both me and Zoat reached similar conclusions. I mean, if i had to explain... generally people try to do what they think is best; even if they're between a rock and a hard place and "best" is actually something bad that they don't like, they're still doing it because they think it's the least-bad option.

So, yeah, technically you can say that feeding orphans and adopting one-eyed kittens is "selfish", because you're doing what you want/think is best. The decision of what you do ultimately comes down to you and what you think, even if one of those things you're thinking is "i want to do what other people need or want".

But that doesn't mean it's "selfish" as in "beneficial for you and bad for others". It just means that you are abiding by your own moral code. If anything, calling it selfish just means that you're using a kinda narrow/silly definition of "selfish".

 

[Gilhelmi]

That said, somehow it kinda sounds like Zoat read Ayn Rand's weird thing about how you can logic away selfless acts as actually being "selfish"

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I once listened to a guy telling me what his Church believed.

He said that they needed to baptize babies because they "selfishly" cry for food and care. As a Christian, I was appalled by the logic. I wish I had thought to say this at the time but, babies cry because it is their only means of communication until they are more fully developed. They can not feed themselves so they cry to let their carer know they need help. Their crying is not a sin on their part, it is just normal communication that needs to be explored.

I guess it is why I like this story so much, it takes a trait that is normally seen as a "bad" and shows the positive that it can bring. I am here for the story, not the strict interpretation of the holy scriptures. I have long ago lost faith in the DC writing team, and a writing revolution needs to be started.

 

[Badass6969]

Honestly, It is kinda weird. Personally, I've never read anything from Any Rand, and from what I've heard of it, I certainly wouldn't want to (no 20-page rants and old rich guys going to a island to let society collapse for some inane reason, no thank you).

Yet apparently, both me and Zoat reached similar conclusions. I mean, if i had to explain... generally people try to do what they think is best; even if they're between a rock and a hard place and "best" is actually something bad that they don't like, they're still doing it because they think it's the least-bad option.

So, yeah, technically you can say that feeding orphans and adopting one-eyed kittens is "selfish", because you're doing what you want/think is best. The decision of what you do ultimately comes down to you and what you think, even if one of those things you're thinking is "i want to do what other people need or want".

But that doesn't mean it's "selfish" as in "beneficial for you and bad for others". It just means that you are abiding by your own moral code. If anything, calling it selfish just means that you're using a kinda narrow/silly definition of "selfish".

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Well TBF from what I knew in that situation, society was already breaking down by all the "helpful" laws which had domino-effects that were somehow supported by other rich people who somehow found that being "selfless" or pretending to be "selfless" would somehow give them power via good PR and connections rather than delivering good product and running businesses cost-efficiently and those "selfish" rich businessmen and other scientists and inventors whether they actually cared or not were gonna try and rebuild society

I think in that book, society and even the protagonists argued that caring first about your friends and family rather than society as a whole was "selfish", oh wait that was Anthem where they actually banned having friends and lovers and ironically whilst "selfish" the protagonist in the end was intending to still eventually help others

But yeah, "selfish" can be what YOU think is good for others whilst not caring too much about their input whether valid or not.

And as I said before, caring more about specific people than "The Greater Good" could sorta count as "selfish". It'd be like going off to save a hostage right before you whilst knowing that doing so will cause a war like with Harry Dresden who ended up making The Red Court go to war with The White Council by breaking Guest Right

Also would count as "selfish" as shown in many anime/manga/LN/etc if you're an extremely heroic person who dies or nearly gets yourself killed but doesn't consider to think too much that their friends and family want them SAFE & ALIVE

 

[reddraggone9]

The driver frowns, looks left and visibly starts. "Who the fuck are you? What the fuck is going on?"

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I believe that this is still in the US (especially given the earlier mention of Interstate 81), in which case the driver should be on the left and "the passenger seat beside him" should be to the right.

You made them afraid, it make you feel good-.

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You made them afraid, it made you feel good-.

 

[Vaermina]

Given a couple peoples continued insistence that it should work because "close enough" I going to guess they don't realize that Earth 12 Kryptonite is a unique mineral and unlike every single other occurrence of the material wasn't actually created from Krypton exploding.