With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Radix]

Okay. I accept that that is canon.

Now let me explain why I hate it and it's stupid.

Let us start by considering the phrase 'constitutionally corrupt'. What is a constituion? It is a supreme law which sets out the structure of and philosophical justification for the state. What is corruption? Bypassing the proper structure of the state. As such, 'constitutionally corrupt' is a contradiction in terms.

Consider the difference between these two situations:
1) You discover that the DA handling our case has a large debt to his drug dealer. You offer him a million dollars to undercharge you. Joe Snow-Blower gets paid, the DA doesn't get his legs broken and you get a small fine instead of prison time. Corruption.
2) You offer to plead guilty to a minor offence immediately in exchange for other charges being dropped with prejudice. The DA is up for reelection next week and wants a good headline now, so takes the deal. He is reelected. Not corruption.

Why isn't it corruption? Because nothing is being bypassed and the ultimate judge of the DA's action -the demos- is not being kept in the dark. If they decide that a fast result is better than charging in full, they can. If not, the are entirely free to vote for someone else. The fact they trusted the headline and didn't bother reading deeper is neither here nor there.

When it comes to Rimbor, there are two possibilities.
1) There is a system of justice that is similar to what we would recognise, but if you know who to talk to you can nudge things you way with money. Corruption.
2) You get the result you pay for in all circumstances, top to bottom. Not corruption.

Which is Rimbor? Well, the guy in the audience was mystified why the Justice League wasn't paying up, and the judge was openly soliciting in court. That doesn't suggest that they're hiding anything from anyone and that everyone knows that's how it works, and accepts it.

It's the system. I don't think it's a good system, but it is the system they have. And in a fictional setting that's great! I'd like to see an alternate form of dispute resolution which isn't just an American court with the serial number filed off. But not one which requires everyone involved to be a moron.

Imagine a road fitness check where you can pay one fee to get your vehicle approved, but if you give the clerk doing it a bit more you get priority and if you give them a lot more they just sign off on it without checking but they're financially liable for any accident you have so they have to judge carefully whether it's worth it or not. Or where after the League's attack the people of Rimbor totalled up the value of the damage and figured that whoever did it would have to have an empire of their own which would be adversly affected by trade restrictions so issued an advisory note about the attack in the assumption that the attacking empire would pay them off to normalise trade... And then found out that it's just seven private citizens who couldn't pay if off if they wanted to.

Instead... I mean, if the 'judge' is purely interested in how much money he can get out of it, why is he bothering with a court when he can just stick them in a cell and tell them how much they owe him to recall the wanted posters and let them out? Is he hoping that Savage will pay him more to keep things going longer? Is he on alien pay-per-view and needs to keep the audience entertained in the most boring mass murder trial ever? Why did he give up when M'gann asked him to? Heck, they have contact with Earth, why didn't he just send a message to Earth's governments saying that he can keep the trial going indefinitely, or he can end it tomorrow if they pay enough. How much do they want their heroes back? I'm pretty sure the US government would bail Superman. Lex might, if only so he can laugh about it.

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Corruption isnt about bypassing the laws, it is about dishonest or fraudulant practices.

An official changing their behavior for personal gain is corruption. So selectively prosecuting in order to be reelecred certainly seems like a form of corruption to me. If there wasnt an election the next week would they still drop the charges? If no, then it is corruption.

A state can have legal bribery, or even outright legal supports to force the bribery or be punished.

They gave up because Earth had Warworld and Mgann gave the bullshit about bring able to get more bribes because of a better reputation. Mostly just cause thw writers were done with the plot and wanted it done quickly wjthout the League being punished or paying a bribe.

 

[Slake Mothman]

Corruption isnt about bypassing the laws, it is about dishonest or fraudulant practices.

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It is both, and the conjunction of the two meanings is the crux of the issue with the comic. Going by Zoat's and Silverias' accounts of the comic, it seems like the writers wanted to show a society with an "alternate form of dispute resolution which isn't just an American court with the serial number filed off", but did not have the deftness of language to pull it off. For a phrase like 'constitutional corruption' to make any sort of sense, it would have to be compared to a greater something to show what it is a corruption of. Something like, 'Rimbor was once a bastion of order whose people were at once lauded and scorned for the fairness and inviolability of their courts. Then, a century ago, the fire nation pirate guild attacked in a massive coup that upended a millennia of fair government rule. The current government is a consitutional corruption of everything Rimbor once stood for.'

certainly seems like a form of corruption to me

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It is a corruption of your personal values, but not a corruption of the law as written.

 

[Neruz]

? Khorne? Skull Throne? Pyramid?

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Timur, aka Tamerlane, was notoriously a horrible man who liked to do things like slaughter entire towns so he could build pyramids of skulls, and create towers out of living people by cementing them together.

Khorne probably would have liked him.

 

[Stsword]

? Khorne? Skull Throne? Pyramid?

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Timur, 14th century Turco-Mongolion who waged genocidal wars of conquest which are estimated to have killed 17 to 20 million people, 5% of Earth's population.

It is reported that as intimidation tactic he'd make piles of over a thousand skulls from his previous conquests to show the next city what they had to look forward to.

 

[Radix]

It is both, and the conjunction of the two meanings is the crux of the issue with the comic. Going by Zoat's and Silverias' accounts of the comic, it seems like the writers wanted to show a society with an "alternate form of dispute resolution which isn't just an American court with the serial number filed off", but did not have the deftness of language to pull it off. For a phrase like 'constitutional corruption' to make any sort of sense, it would have to be compared to a greater something to show what it is a corruption of. Something like, 'Rimbor was once a bastion of order whose people were at once lauded and scorned for the fairness and inviolability of their courts. Then, a century ago, the fire nation pirate guild attacked in a massive coup that upended a millennia of fair government rule. The current government is a consitutional corruption of everything Rimbor once stood for.'


It is a corruption of your personal values, but not a corruption of the law as written.

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This isnt about the constitutuon being corrupted, it is about corruption (as in the noun) being enshrined in the constitution. Like saying a nation is constitutionally democratic. It means that it is built into the laws to behave cocorruptlyin this case it would mean the constitutional laws do not allow for bribery and similar behavior to be punished.

This isnt from the comics. It is an invention of the show from S2. It wasnt intended as an alternate justice system, it was a way to keep the main Justice League heavy hitters locked down in a way where they couldnt just prove their innocence and be freed. The court of Rimbor didnt care about their guilt, their justice system wasnt about fairness under the law or civil rights, it was a way to extort money from those accused. The very system was set up to be unfair and favor bribery/corruption on an instititional and legal level

 

[Ryumancer]

Is it just that honesty is considered an acceptable kryptonian value regardless of circumstances, so it wasn't removed from Superman? Because it surprised me a bit that he was willing to be honest with an alien when he must know that the result of that honesty is likely conflict.

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Is conflict even a downside, when you 'know' that you'll just win?

 

[Slake Mothman]

corruption (as in the noun) being enshrined in the constitution

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As Zoat said in his original comment, 'constitutional corruption' is an oxymoron if taken in the non-figurative sense. In simpler terms, it's saying 'it's the law that you have to break the law'. Allowing bribery, extortion, and blackmail as a court's modus operandi is not corruption if those behaviors are enshrined in the constitution. It's the law working as it's written.

But none of this actually matters because the term "constitutional corruption" is never said in the show. It makes far more sense that Greg Weisman was just making an offhanded comment about something he really didn't think to hard about and Rimbor is another failed state with a long history of rampant, normal corruption.

It wasnt intended as an alternate justice system, it was a way to keep the main Justice League heavy hitters locked down in a way where they couldnt just prove their innocence and be freed. The court of Rimbor didnt care about their guilt, their justice system wasnt about fairness under the law or civil rights, it was a way to extort money from those accused.

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Agreed

 

[Radix]

As Zoat said in his original comment, 'constitutional corruption' is an oxymoron if taken in the non-figurative sense. In simpler terms, it's saying 'it's the law that you have to break the law'. Allowing bribery, extortion, and blackmail as a court's modus operandi is not corruption if those behaviors are enshrined in the constitution. It's the law working as it's written.

But none of this actually matters because the term "constitutional corruption" is never said in the show. It makes far more sense that Greg Weisman was just making an offhanded comment about something he really didn't think to hard about and Rimbor is another failed state with a long history of rampant, normal corruption.


Agreed

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Except bribery and blackmail is still corruption, even if it isnt illegal. One could legally give a gift to a judge if it wasnt againdt the law, but that doesnt make it any less corruption.

 

[xSieg]

"I thought that you'd been practicing the theta wave state."

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Is this an in-story confirmation that Torquasm Rao and Vo are the same thing in Universe-16? I'm still wondering about that, honestly.

 

[Prince Charon]

Except bribery and blackmail is still corruption, even if it isnt illegal. One could legally give a gift to a judge if it wasnt againdt the law, but that doesnt make it any less corruption.

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I feel like the main issue in this argument is different people firmly believing in very different definitions of the word 'corruption,' and not being willing to bend on them.

 

[Agumentic]

Except bribery and blackmail is still corruption, even if it isnt illegal. One could legally give a gift to a judge if it wasnt againdt the law, but that doesnt make it any less corruption.

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If it's not illegal and considered a proper resolution by the society, then it's just different cultural values, not corruption.

 

[Radix]

If it's not illegal and considered a proper resolution by the society, then it's just different cultural values, not corruption.

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So if I pay a judge to find me innocent, but it isnt a crime for me to do so, that isnt corruption?

 

[Galacticplumber]

So if I pay a judge to find me innocent, but it isnt a crime for me to do so, that isnt corruption?

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For something to be a corruption it must be a perversion or alteration of something. If that is the directly intended legal standard in place, what exactly are you corrupting?

I know the phrase, like many, has received a colloquial, wrong, secondary definition that some online dictionaries have capitulated to. It's not being used correctly unless you can answer that question.

 

[Agumentic]

So if I pay a judge to find me innocent, but it isnt a crime for me to do so, that isnt corruption?

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If it isn't a crime and if the society accepts that it isn't a crime, yes.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Is this an in-story confirmation that Torquasm Rao and Vo are the same thing in Universe-16? I'm still wondering about that, honestly.

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No, just that I can't tell them apart in terms of what their affect is supposed to be.

 

[Mr Zoat]

26th July 2013
23:37 GMT -5

The scenery jumps and jumps again and my ring automatically removes me from danger.

Oh sug-

I get a tenth of a second of seeing Superman fly at me fists first and-

-ar.

-then I'm in the middle of the dig site, Eradicator androids floating around the entrance to… A LexCorp facility. They appear to have just rammed their way through the entrance-.

Superman's attacking me.

Um.

Full armour, activate stealth and phasing and move.

Superman… Is-.

Warning! Energy drain detected!

Because of course the Eradicator program gave him a full working knowledge of Torquasm. Stop scanning, passive-.

Superman appears a short distance from me, looking intently at his surroundings.

Okay, so I remember from the comics that when Superman does this isn't relatively easy to disorientate him with intense sound or light. But the person taking advantage of that was Diana, and she's faster, tougher and stronger than me. I'm not sure I can actually make a distraction fast enough to avoid getting pâtéd.

So, how do I deal with a hostile kryptonian?

Reasoning didn't work. He's wearing an environmental shield, so dropping off lumps of kryptonite isn't going to achieve anything. Powdered kryptonite, same problem. A kryptonite laser should work, but that would require me to phase back in and not get pasted-.

He's looking at me. I'm not interacting with the physical universe, how is-?

"There you-" Movemovemove! "-are."

And he's there, right in my face, hands… Sticking through me, but I'm phased, so while this is disturbing it's not actually dangerous.

I think.

Ah, okay, x-ionised knives? Might actually kill him if I can make an attack, which is in no way guaranteed. And I'd have to phase in. Build up kryptonite radiation inside my armour and the release it when I phase in? No good. If I overwhelmed his environmental shield he'd still be throwing a punch at me at full force. So either he'd hit at full power and then get depowered, in which case I'd explode, or he'd get depowered first in which case he'd be moving so fast that there's a reasonable chance that he would.

Desire manipulation. Okay, I'll

take a closer-.

Dddddhhhhhrrrrrrr.

"Did that hurt?" He doesn't look more than mildly curious[/i]. "Krypton didn't have a record of what happened to an alien who tried that."

I don't know what bit of his expanded skill set did that, but I don't want to try it again. Right, plot course to somewhere a mile away and transition.

The scenery skips, which-.

"Found you." Fuck. "Drawing on Orange Lantern energy like this is harder than I thought it would be."

Um.

I look up, trying to-.

"Ah, there it is."

Warning! Energy drain detected!

I can't see!

Transition upwards and west.

Okay... What? How did he?

"You know…" And he's caught up already and I have no idea how. "You're not going to get away."

I raise my right hand and make the reverse-victory sign.

"Hm. You just moved, but I can't quite tell how."

X-ionised blades inside my armour, pushing outwards. Make sure that there isn't room between them for him to strike me. Then… The environmental shield is designed to counter radiation. Generate… Super tear gas.

And… Take a moment.

The Eradicators are still working, and the relief convoy is… Doing final checks on the three suits of high quality power armour they brought with them. Kryptonite weapons, but also kryptonite-powered plasma weapons. Some sort of dimensional-shunt force field, which explains the maintenance teams. Those things are hard to keep in working order, and I'm… Kind of surprised that LexCorp has managed to develop a practical version.

Superman's looking-.

I phase in and drop the gas, manifesting sonic cannon constructs as he turns back in surprise, hit him with ultra-high and ultra-low frequency sounds at the same time. Tear the air into plasma, try and hit a wavelength that will disrupt his environmental shield while throwing out gold kryptonite dust because I'll only need to disrupt it a little-.

Superman spins, the air turning into a tornado as the gas and dust are funnelled away!

Plasma. Copy what Lex's people are-.

Green bolts punch through the tornado, striking Superm-. No, missing Superman as he blurs around them, heat vision flashing-. Their armour shimmers purple as their force field absorbs it and I'm doing nothing shoot him!

Ugh, that clearly isn't-. What Construct Lanterns would-?

Hydra heads, go!

A dozen reptilian heads shimmer into being around me and lunge for Superman, jaws snapping! That actually holds his attention for an instant, resulting in some of the plasma actually hitting him. All that causes is a small wince and then the hydras bite down! One on his right arm, one on his left shoulder, three on his torso and one goes for his head-.

Heat vision rips through that one, and the rest aren't really getting anywhere, but at least they appear to have his attention. I know it won't work, but-. Assimilate.

Identity theft in progress. One percent complete.

Superman tries to rip off the filament connecting us, only for three hydra heads to bite it and wrestle it back!

One percent complete.

I suppose that I could always get High Father Izaya to turn him back if I actually do complete it.

Two percent complete.

A beam of kryptonite plasma from the power armour units finds a gap between the hydra heads-

"Agh!"

-and actually hits him. I can see a burn-. I think my distraction efforts are achieving something-.

Then the hydra heads disintegrate as he charges me!

 

[Signaller]

Do the construct heads retain the ability to regrow in pairs?

 

[Z000]

Do the construct heads retain the ability to regrow in pairs?

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all assimilated construct retain their original power

the old glutton demon can still eat and duplicate

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

26th July 2013
23:37 GMT -5

The scenery jumps and jumps again and my ring automatically removes me from danger.

Oh sug-

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Yeah, this is going to be a definite case of 'dodge or die' combat. Like rocket tag between one person made of cardboard and the other in god mode. OL's going to have to fight smart here...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

I get a tenth of a second of seeing Superman fly at me fists first and-

-ar.

-then I'm in the middle of the dig site, Eradicator androids floating around the entrance to… A LexCorp facility. They appear to have just rammed their way through the entrance-.

Click to shrink...

Given they're almost as tough as an empowered Kryptonian, I'm not surprised. At that level of durability, there's not much difference between paper and steel.

Superman's attacking me.

Um.

Full armour, activate stealth and phasing and move.

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Even that's no guarantee of safety, given everything a fully Kryptonian Superman can manage...

Superman… Is-.

Warning! Energy drain detected!

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...Seriously? Emotional Energy is close enough to what his organelles can normally absorb?

Because of course the Eradicator program gave him a full working knowledge of Torquasm. Stop scanning, passive-.

Superman appears a short distance from me, looking intently at his surroundings.

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That means he can probably sense the slight distortions of space-time the armour's concealment is providing...

Okay, so I remember from the comics that when Superman does this it isn't relatively easy to disorientate him with intense sound or light. But the person taking advantage of that was Diana, and she's faster, tougher and stronger than me. I'm not sure I can actually make a distraction fast enough to avoid getting pâtéd.

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Honestly, full-power Kryptonians are just goddamn busted.

So, how do I deal with a hostile kryptonian?

Reasoning didn't work. He's wearing an environmental shield, so dropping off lumps of kryptonite isn't going to achieve anything. Powdered kryptonite, same problem. A kryptonite laser should work, but that would require me to phase back in and not get pasted-.

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EMP to disable it? Or would that still have the issue of having to materialise long enough to deploy it, by which time it's likely you'll have his fist in your heart...

He's looking at me. I'm not interacting with the physical universe, how is-?

"There you-" Movemovemove! "-are."

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Seriously busted. This is a powerset any chuuni forum gamer would kill for.

And he's there, right in my face, hands… Sticking through me, but I'm phased, so while this is disturbing it's not actually dangerous.

I think.

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Until he finds the right wavelength to actually interact with you, because fucking Torquasm...

Ah, okay, x-ionised knives? Might actually kill him if I can make an attack, which is in no way guaranteed. And I'd have to phase in. Build up kryptonite radiation inside my armour and the release it when I phase in? No good. If I overwhelmed his environmental shield he'd still be throwing a punch at me at full force. So either he'd hit at full power and then get depowered, in which case I'd explode, or he'd get depowered first in which case he'd be moving so fast that there's a reasonable chance that he would.

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And retreating won't help, he's probably faster than you in the air. At least in these tunnels he's slightly slower plowing through walls.

Desire manipulation. Okay, I'll

take a closer-.

Dddddhhhhhrrrrrrr.

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And aggressive psychic defences. I'd be amazed if OL wasn't bleeding from the nose right now.

"Did that hurt?" He doesn't look more than mildly curious. "Krypton didn't have a record of what happened to an alien who tried that."

I don't know what bit of his expanded skill set did that, but I don't want to try it again. Right, plot course to somewhere a mile away and transition.

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Aw, giving up the terrain advantage...

The scenery skips, which-.

"Found you." Fuck. "Drawing on Orange Lantern energy like this is harder than I thought it would be."

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Hopefully it doesn't affect him mentally, or you'll have a full-power Kryptonian on an Avarice overdose.

Um.

I look up, trying to-.

"Ah, there it is."

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Looking for somewhere to take this where he has some advantage?

Warning! Energy drain detected!

I can't see!

Transition upwards and west.

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Goddamn! Even soaking up scans not directed at him...

Okay... What? How did he?

"You know…" And he's caught up already and I have no idea how. "You're not going to get away."

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It's called 'not giving a damn about hypersonic atmospheric disturbances.' I suspect the world's weather is going to be a little crazy for the next few weeks.

I raise my right hand and make the reverse-victory sign.

"Hm. You just moved, but I can't quite tell how."

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Flipping the bird at Superman? Fair, given his state.

X-ionised blades inside my armour, pushing outwards. Make sure that there isn't room between them for him to strike me. Then… The environmental shield is designed to counter radiation. Generate… Super tear gas.

And… Take a moment.

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To be fair, it probably handles gasses too, but with his general durability he'd probably have that dialled down?

The Eradicators are still working, and the relief convoy is… Doing final checks on the three suits of high quality power armour they brought with them. Kryptonite weapons, but also kryptonite-powered plasma weapons. Some sort of dimensional-shunt force field, which explains the maintenance teams. Those things are hard to keep in working order, and I'm… Kind of surprised that LexCorp has managed to develop a practical version.

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Lex has been keeping some fancy toys under his wig...

Superman's looking-.

I phase in and drop the gas, manifesting sonic cannon constructs as he turns back in surprise, hit him with ultra-high and ultra-low frequency sounds at the same time. Tear the air into plasma, try and hit a wavelength that will disrupt his environmental shield while throwing out gold kryptonite dust because I'll only need to disrupt it a little-.

Click to shrink...

Only problem with that is...

Superman spins, the air turning into a tornado as the gas and dust are funnelled away!

Plasma. Copy what Lex's people are-.

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...You only attacked from one direction. He's fast enough to see it coming.

Green bolts punch through the tornado, striking Superm-. No, missing Superman as he blurs around them, heat vision flashing-. Their armour shimmers purple as their force field absorbs it and I'm doing nothing shoot him!

Ugh, that clearly isn't-. What Construct Lanterns would-?

Hydra heads, go!

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Preferably before he tears the armour of the pilots and leaves them for dead.

A dozen reptilian heads shimmer into being around me and lunge for Superman, jaws snapping! That actually holds his attention for an instant, resulting in some of the plasma actually hitting him. All that causes is a small wince and then the hydras bite down! One on his right arm, one on his left shoulder, three on his torso and one goes for his head-.

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Effect minimal, I wager.

Heat vision rips through that one, and the rest aren't really getting anywhere, but at least they appear to have his attention. I know it won't work, but-. Assimilate.

Identity theft in progress. One percent complete.

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Hopefully he's distracted enough to not simply vacuum up the Spectrum energy.

Superman tries to rip off the filament connecting us, only for three hydra heads to bite it and wrestle it back!

One percent complete.

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And naturally he's capable of grabbing technically incorporeal light.

I suppose that I could always get High Father Izaya to turn him back if I actually do complete it.

Two percent complete.

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...Though that would take some explaining to the League.

A beam of kryptonite plasma from the power armour units finds a gap between the hydra heads-

"Agh!"

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Huh! That actually made him flinch?

-and actually hits him. I can see a burn-. I think my distraction efforts are achieving something-.

Then the hydra heads disintegrate as he charges me!

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At least it's you and not the squishy human power armour.

The Last Son already showing just why evil Supermen are such hassles to deal with if they're in any way competent. I'm guessing he needs some concentration hold keep all his defences up, hence the Kryptonite plasma guns getting through when he was distracted. Now, how to actually keep him distracted...

 

[Duke Long]

Okay, so I remember from the comics that when Superman does this isn't relatively easy to disorientate him with intense sound or light. But the person taking advantage of that was Diana, and she's faster, tougher and stronger than me. I'm not sure I can actually make a distraction fast enough to avoid getting pâtéd.

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'it's'?

Ah, okay, x-ionised knives? Might actually kill him if I can make an attack, which is in no way guaranteed. And I'd have to phase in. Build up kryptonite radiation inside my armour and the release it when I phase in? No good. If I overwhelmed his environmental shield he'd still be throwing a punch at me at full force. So either he'd hit at full power and then get depowered, in which case I'd explode, or he'd get depowered first in which case he'd be moving so fast that there's a reasonable chance that he would.

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'then'
Good point, haha.

"Did that hurt?" He doesn't look more than mildly curious[/i]. "Krypton didn't have a record of what happened to an alien who tried that."

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Extraneous italicisation code.

X-ionised blades inside my armour, pushing outwards. Make sure that there isn't room between them for him to strike me. Then… The environmental shield is designed to counter radiation. Generate… Super tear gas.

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I'm surprised it can't handle gas. Couldn't Oh El make kryptonite gas to bypass it then? Or is it more of a field than a shield so it would still nullify the radiation even if it originates inside Superman? Or would it somehow filter out radioactive gas but not other poisonous gases?

Also a little surprised phasing worked, I assumed Torquasm was a sufficiently broad-spectrum anti-bullshit method that Superman would punch straight through it.

Do the construct heads retain the ability to regrow in pairs?

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Did they have that ability in the first place? I thought it was the necks that the heads grew from, and these are also ghosts of hydra heads rather than actual hydra heads. I don't remember whether they multiplied when Oh El fought them.

 

[KharnTheBrotrayer]

This is one of the really bad match ups for OL cause he doesn't actually WANT to hurt or kill Clark.

 

[Duke Long]

No, still can't fix it, and… I'd much rather that Thana sent this death magic back to Erebos rather than try ingesting it myself.

Move. I need to leave a trail. Kon, Mitchell and M'gann are heading down, and though I'm not entirely sure why I suppose that any 'away from me' direction is as good as any other.

Or not. A head come up from below, forcing them to split apart. It's lined up on me too, so I dodge north. It tries changing its angle, but it doesn't seem-. A ghost should be able to turn on a sixpence as they're not really part of the physical world. Most don't because they're an echo of a person and so tend to do person-like things, but these are hydra-heads. That head is angling like a swimming animal changing the direction it's swimming in, which is why I'm able to avoid it relatively easily.

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Extraneous 'rather'?
'comes'

 

[BlackCoat13]

"Did that hurt?" He doesn't look more than mildly curious[/i]. "Krypton

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Got a tag there.