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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Buggy123 said:
Hah, it's always a little funny when something gets discussed at-length between chapters, and then there's inexplicably a paragraph or two discussing it in the next chapter. Crazy coincidence, innit?

That aside, that's a interesting point about War Hound biotech. It is a bit out of left field compared to everything else. Ought to be interesting to see when OL gets to the room where the magic happens (and his stealth is immediately compromised by something no one expected).
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Maybe they reverse-engineering a Standard Template Construct for Space Marines?
 
Buggy123 said:
Hmm, fair point; combat might be a sort of mix between long range and short range, with heavier weapons limited to shorter range. But that would also be kind of strange; if long-range lasers and railguns are so ineffectual across that entire distance that both sides can close to the point where extremely short range, see-the-whites-of-their-eyes weapons are useful... why carry the railguns and lasers?

Of course, the solution could just be "they don't", and so the FTL weapon is basically a artillery gun capable of picking off targets beyond any other effectual weapon range. And that's sorta how its described, I suppose.

But even then, don't you kinda have the opposite problem? Do you know what a military force without artillery facing down a force with artillery is called? 'Holes'. If we're going by Schlock, the Long Gun just about changed the game as much as the teraport.
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The Long gun was a game changer (and almost a game ender) specifically because it could bypass every form of interdiction FTL by creating sort of gravitational "tunnel" around the shot. There is no defense against it aside from hiding or leaving the galaxy. That's why the UNS never used the thing. Anyone they didn't immediately destroy would have built their own once they knew it could be done. Then it becomes a prisoner's dilemma scenario where the guy with the itchiest trigger finger wins.
When you have a scenario where offense is so much more effective than defense, the only way to actually have a stable society is draconian control over who gets to build weapons.
 
Sockmonkey said:
The Long gun was a game changer (and almost a game ender) specifically because it could bypass every form of interdiction FTL by creating sort of gravitational "tunnel" around the shot. There is no defense against it aside from hiding or leaving the galaxy. That's why the UNS never used the thing. Anyone they didn't immediately destroy would have built their own once they knew it could be done. then it becomes a prisoner's dilemma scenario where the guy with the itchiest trigger finger wins.
When you have a scenario where offense is so much more effective than defense, the only way to actually have a stable society is draconian control over who gets to build weapons.
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Admittedly, it's not a perfect example. But it is a good way to demonstrate just how much a even-longer-range weapon can shift the paradigm.

Also, yeah, tbh everyone in that universe is fucked by the local physics. I like the comic a lot, but I'd be the first to say that that universe is a little weird and definitely not a good place to live. Maybe they should look into that mini-universe technique again.
 
Yog said:
I'd argue that mother/father boxes 16 are, on average, more useful to an average user than a power ring, especially a green power ring. Sure, in principle, a power ring can provide more utility to a top level user who has perfect understanding on the emotional spectrum - I am fairly sure that, at this point, Paul could probably do Grayven's divine awakening with only a power ring and his own soul sight / understanding of orange light / his own soul structures. But to a rookie, or even just average mortal user, mother / father box is probably more useful than a power ring.
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Aside from Boom Tubes what all can they do?

Sockmonkey said:
The Long gun was a game changer (and almost a game ender) specifically because it could bypass every form of interdiction FTL by creating sort of gravitational "tunnel" around the shot. There is no defense against it aside from hiding or leaving the galaxy. That's why the UNS never used the thing. Anyone they didn't immediately destroy would have built their own once they knew it could be done. Then it becomes a prisoner's dilemma scenario where the guy with the itchiest trigger finger wins.
When you have a scenario where offense is so much more effective than defense, the only way to actually have a stable society is draconian control over who gets to build weapons.
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Sounds like Nukes.
 
Queshire said:
Aside from Boom Tubes what all can they do?
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Soul manipulation for sure (divine awakening and such), communication between each other, at least some manner of hacking / control of technology are what we definitely saw in this story. If we go by DC wiki... Everything that a power ring can do, and possibly more.

EDIT: Oh, and almost certainly manufacture of New God technology is within their abilities - see Canis having access to New God tech.
 
Queshire said:
Sounds like Nukes.
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Worse, honestly. Nukes have travel time and limited targeting, and there are reasonably effective countermeasures. By my understanding, if nuclear war broke out, most of the nukes would be intercepted before they hit anything; it's just that between the few that weren't, and the fact that some of the countermeasures are themselves nukes, things wouldn't be very pretty afterwards.

Long guns are basically a nuke that can be instantly teleported anywhere you can target. They have no known counter aside from ensuring your opponent just can't hit you with them; even if you make a nuke-proof bunker, they'll just shoot it inside the bunker.

So, you have to keep anyone from getting the necessary targeting data (which would be functionally equivalent to making absolutely sure that no one ever gets a smartphone anywhere near a secure building), moving around so quickly that they can't hit you by the time they fire (impractical unless you're currently inside a particularly spry warship), or just running the fuck away into intergalactic space.

And as it turns out, that first option doesn't work terribly well either, because someone managed to walk their longgun shots from Andromeda and have started to take out critical infrastructure, bit by bit, with no local spotters to eliminate.

So, just about everyone goes with that last option; they just build a dyson sphere around a dwarf star and fling it outside of the galaxy. It's happened so many times, that there are thousands of these spheres out there. And each one is able to hold something like 100 galactic civilizations worth of people all on it's own (though, they're certainly not all full, but the one we saw was at about 40% capacity).
 
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I am familiar with the webcomic in question, yes.
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, Leonard Snart would start shooting at this point as well.
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Among the members of the Justice League, only Batman, Hawkman, and maybe Hawkwoman and Major Atom would have the objectivity to do what Paul did. This honestly makes Paul seem like the more effective hero sometimes. He's not going to hesitate to do what's necessary, but only does it when it's necessary.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Yes, but making a game like that isn't a quick business. Not if you're doing it properly. They're still doing basic concept and storyline work at the moment.

No, Leonard Snart would start shooting at this point as well.
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Arguably, what you need is a mad scientist game designer.

Someone like a fantasy version of Hideo Kojima, who supposedly got stuck making Metal Gear Solid games for years when he wanted to move on and make something completely different, so a lot of his career was supposedly spent making the games as subtly bad as possible, while still getting them high quality and keeping his reputation. Things like making more than half the game an unskippable cutscene where really stupid stuff happens, replacing the badass army guy of the first successful game with a bishounen, and yet somehow still making a popular game takes incredible talent.

Either way, yeah, making a great open world exploration game usually takes 3-4 years. Heck, that's a lot of the reason why things like the Elder Scrolls games are only released once per console generation, and they last year released a teaser trailer for the next game, set to come out in 2021. Same thing for games like Witcher 3 or Cyberpunk 2077 which had concept trailers come out 4-5 years before release.

If you're going for linear shooter or strategy game though, those take 1-2 years to make.

Of course, the best choice for the given game would probably be something similar to a triple A version of Sunless Sea / Sunless Skies, (a boat / flying train management/ rpg cthulhupunk game which somehow pulls off an interesting and original lore-based world where Queen Victoria made a deal with the bat people where Albert returns to life as a zombie, while London is pulled into a massive underground cavern where the rules of reality don't strictly apply, and hell is preety literally right next door.).
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Renegade Xor's ship never malfunctioned. He's in prison right now.
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Clarification, Why?

I though both versions started out the same, except renegade had a worse day at work. So absent butterflies, things should be the same between realities. And since neither OL or Grayven had interacted with that civilisation at that point, both versions should have had an accident before reaching their destination.

Mr Zoat said:
No, Leonard Snart would start shooting at this point as well.
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Why? She is currently safe in the room, while you do what needs to be done. Which as not been shown on screen yet, but I assume is a reprisal for the attack, followed by a marooning?

If I might make a suggestion? Instead of wasting wasting some planets resources marooning them, OL can deage someone. Why not deage (especially and specifically the brains) anyone he would have marooned, so they can then be put through the neural pruning/brainwashing process that needs a young robust brain?
 
Silveraith said:
Not sure if the period is intentional given the sentence structure of the two sentences.
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For once it actually was intentional.
Bramble Thorn said:
Clarification, Why?

I though both versions started out the same, except renegade had a worse day at work. So absent butterflies, things should be the same between realities. And since neither OL or Grayven had interacted with that civilisation at that point, both versions should have had an accident before reaching their destination.
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Nothing you say here is untrue. It was a knock on from a knock on, but the SI changed something the Renegade didn't.
Why? She is currently safe in the room, while you do what needs to be done. Which as not been shown on screen yet, but I assume is a reprisal for the attack, followed by a marooning?
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Having been abused as a child, Leonard has a very limited tolerance for that sort of thing.
If I might make a suggestion? Instead of wasting wasting some planets resources marooning them, OL can deage someone. Why not deage (especially and specifically the brains) anyone he would have marooned, so they can then be put through the neural pruning/brainwashing process that needs a young robust brain?
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The SI would have to care a great deal more about them as individuals in order to do that.
 
Mr Zoat said:
For once it actually was intentional.

Nothing you say here is untrue. It was a knock on from a knock on, but the SI changed something the Renegade didn't.

Having been abused as a child, Leonard has a very limited tolerance for that sort of thing.

The SI would have to care a great deal more about them as individuals in order to do that.
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Hm... did Grayven go asteroid mining at the beginning? Who went asteroid mining more? Maybe that's what caused the butterfly effect? (for example) Since he reduced the mass of the asteroid, it altered it's flight trajectory, and it didn't get into the way of the ftl jump Xor's ship did.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Nothing you say here is untrue. It was a knock on from a knock on, but the SI changed something the Renegade didn't.
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Yet considering how Xor crashing on Earth happened in comics canon without any SI intervention, it doesn't really make sense to me that Paragon would have been responsible for that, however indirectly. The universe seems to have story beats or patterns that do account for Paragon's actions (like the Rama Khan-heir situation in this continuity being because of a portal that Mist made for Paragon), but I feel like those should have happened even without his intervention, just at a later date and more like their comics/tv show canon version.
I'd buy it more if Xor's ship NOT crashing was due to SI butterflies, since comics canon/in-universe cosmic story patterns should have dictated that the ship would always crash.

It's ultimately a minor point that doesn't especially affect my reading experience, but in the parlance of older TV Tropes, it Just Bugs Me.

Mquz said:
Hm... did Grayven go asteroid mining at the beginning? Who went asteroid mining more? Maybe that's what caused the butterfly effect? (for example) Since he reduced the mass of the asteroid, it altered it's flight trajectory, and it didn't get into the way of the ftl jump Xor's ship did.
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I believe every Earth-16Z iteration of the SI did the asteroid mining plan- Paragon, Renegade, Eros-Paragon, Common Sense and Sybarite, to the best of my knowledge (I think Power Ring Blue did something similar as well, using asteroid gold to make Ultraman-coins as an apology-gift, and Business-Paul and possibly the MCU and EMH Pauls too, since they all have orange rings). Actually Heavenly Guardian Paul might be an exception, if I recall correctly.
It's obviously unreasonable to expect Mr Zoat to have mapped out every variation between every iteration of the SI's various continuities besides the primary Paragon and Renegade ones, but I do wonder in how many of the Earth-16 iterations Xor landed on Earth.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Thank you.
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My original point was to provide an example of a possible butterfly effect. For example, Grayven might have wanted to take out his aggressions on some more asteroids, or some different asteroids, etc... Essentially, whatever different thing they did should probably be a while ago, and while they've obviously done a lot of things that have repercussions, this is the first "moment of chaos" where a whole bunch of external circumstances could have come together, and depending on if they got lucky or unlucky, they could have changed canon in very unpredictable ways. Like having a meteor crash land on Earth, or moving where an special object would have originally been, etc... It was an attempt to provide a sci-fi handwavey reason for something that may have caused an early butterfly effect in space.
 
Mquz said:
My original point was to provide an example of a possible butterfly effect.
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I didn't mean to dispute or obscure your point in any way, so my apologies if I went off on a tangent. I was just trying to expand the situation to every other logical instance that asteroid mining by an SI would have happened.
 
DrThoth said:
It's obviously unreasonable to expect Mr Zoat to have mapped out every variation between every iteration of the SI's various continuities besides the primary Paragon and Renegade ones
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Mr Zoat said:
Thank you.
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So.. couldn't you have said that at the beginning,
"Renegade Xor's ship never malfunctioned. He's in prison right now. I haven't mapped out the exact reason why.'
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You don't have to create a step by step path of how the timelines diverged but the original response made it look like you had decided on a reason in this case
It looked like said reason was either spoilers to something that would be told later, or that we should go through the story-thread to figure out the difference ourselves
 
Is it possible to use an orange brand on an Orange Lantern? Paul can't do a lot of things because he doesn't care enough. Could he lend a ring to a trusted volunteer, brand them, make them desire with their entire being that a task is done (eg de-aging the prisoners he intends to maroon), and have them perform it?
 
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Twilight666 said:
So.. couldn't you have said that at the beginning,
You don't have to create a step by step path of how the timelines diverged but the original response made it look like you had decided on a reason in this case
It looked like said reason was either spoilers to something that would be told later, or that we should go through the story-thread to figure out the difference ourselves
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Yes, I could have said that, but since I do have an explanation for that I would be lying.
 
Mquz said:
Arguably, what you need is a mad scientist game designer.
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SOFT SUBJEC--er. I mean. *cough* It's a shame that mad designers are so much rarer than mad engineers.

Mquz said:
Hm... did Grayven go asteroid mining at the beginning? Who went asteroid mining more? Maybe that's what caused the butterfly effect? (for example) Since he reduced the mass of the asteroid, it altered it's flight trajectory, and it didn't get into the way of the ftl jump Xor's ship did.
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I think it's more likely to do with Paragon summoning the orange rings. Asteroids really don't have a lot of influence on stellar scales. The whole reason they're asteroids in the first place is that they're too small for their gravity to have a visible effect on themselves, much less on the space around them. But summoning the orange rings was an interstellar effect.
 
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