With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Sockmonkey]

When a set of rules, rather than ethics are the highest arbiter of behavior, it always leads to fucked up shit.
As D&D has shown us, there is no set of rules so all-encompassing that some asshole can't figure out how to game the system.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Is that a flag I see before me?

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I don't know. Are you looking at a flag?

 

[fluffy]

I never got "Honor". It seems such a dumb, convoluted concept that leads to only suffering and pain with nothing to show for it.

Mostly it seems to be used to manipulate young men into doing what someone else wants.

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Well thats kind of the point. Honor as a social concept is primarily for ensuring that someone acts appropriately to their cultures ethics, typically through whats known as external honor which is essentially peer pressure. Having honor within a culture means that you can be trusted to follow the rules, obey the social hierarchy, act with good faith in interpersonal dealings. Honor can also be used as a punishment for bad behavior, that by being known to have no honor others can safely punishing you by having a reason to not interact. You could liken external honor to a form of social contract.


What might be confusing you with Xor is that he is in a similar predicament to worf from tng. He has internal honor, meaning his sense of honor is really just a form of strong moral and personal ethics (unlike worf, xors internal honor was instilled as a part of brainwashing). Honor in xors case means he has to act in a certain way and do certain things not because he would upset his peers but because it would upset his own internal ethics.

 

[Prince Charon]

Yeah, but I can do all these things without honor. It is not a consideration necessary to do the right or morale thing.

It just seems to be this little extra ego-boosting tack on. Unnecessary.

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If you do all those things fairly consistently, you do have some form of honour, you just don't seem to call it that.

 

[moralrelativity]

The title of this episode confuses and intrigues me; the closest I can think of is something to do with the (evil) Morris dancers but unless Paragon spends only the first few updates in Vega then I don't see how that's possible.

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"Jiggity-Jig" brought back child-hood memories. Here's the nursery rhyme:

 

[Prince Charon]

"Jiggity-Jig" brought back child-hood memories. Here's the nursery rhyme:

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That's about what I thought, though I only recalled the first couple of lines.

I do wonder which home is being referred to... or how many of them.

 

[w34v3r]

Who are you talking about here?

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What practical applications are there for the Kaio-ken that a normal, everyday person would need? Hard, physical labor comes to mind. But the only type that might qualify, there are literally machines created to do the work for you.

Practical applications please?

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Who? Because I have read the entire manga, and no such person ever shows up.

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Ok that's my bad.

What I should have said was that he's got the whole process worked out, and organized. It implies that he's done this before. Especially since he maintains the step by step process in emergencies.

Should, but never has obviously.

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Which is exactly the problem.

You'd think. But given that none of them have used either of King Kai's techniques, they obviously don't know them. Considering Piccolo's regeneration ability, and how he's been left behind. One would think he'd be using the Kaio-ken. But no.

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Again that's my fucking point. It's stupid that they haven't.

Debatable, as we do not know anything about how the technique works.

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We know it was developed by people who aren't hyper strong, but have excellent techniques, we know they taught it to goku, and we know it relies on sensing.

Again, highly debatable as Goku has shown throughout his entire life to either learn at a glance, or learn much more instinctively, how certain things work. All while those around him struggle to do the same.

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Even if it takes people double the time it took goku to learn this stuff that's still really effing useful.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Which is exactly the problem.

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Take it up with King Kai then.

Again that's my fucking point. It's stupid that they haven't.

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Well in truth, the correct answer is that Toriyama just didn't care at that point.

Beyond that, the Kaio-Ken is inherently self destructive. Goku did more damage to himself using it to catch up to Vegeta, then Vegeta did to him. With the average human being having a power level of something like....literally 1 or 2, even a X20 use would be completely useless in most situations that have befallen their earth. All with the added caveat of completely destroying their body. All for a Ki boost that literally only lasts seconds.

We know it was developed by people who aren't hyper strong, but have excellent techniques, we know they taught it to goku, and we know it relies on sensing.

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And beyond that? Nothing much. We don't even know if Goku himself can teach it, or if it requires certain materials or the like that only the Yardrat have.

We also know that Goku's interests do NOT lean towards teaching the wider world, who do not have the ability to sense Ki, how to teleport OR sense Ki in the first place.

Even if it takes people double the time it took goku to learn this stuff that's still really effing useful.

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It's not. It's really, really not.

Goku went into it with a body that had spent a lifetime training to super human levels. He went into it with natural genetic gifts that gave him a leg up on even the elite members of his race. With all that, prolonged use out of sheer necessity nearly killed him. The average human does NOT have Goku's physicality.

So first they'd have to spend decades training that up, and then even longer learning a technique that history shows almost no one else has been able to do. All so they can get a multiplier on their incredibly small, weak, near useless Ki Level/Power level.

Or they could just get inside the fucking mech armor that they already have, and has been shown to be widely available.

OR they could get the cybernetic implants that Android 17 and 18 have. Which took two teenagers from baseline humans, to more powerful than an untrained Super Saiya-jin. To say nothing of the tech that apparently made 16 even more powerful than that.

Dr. Gero's research is immensely more valuable to the wider world, then pestering Goku to teach people how to kill themselves with the Kaio-ken. So, again, why would limited charged power ring, absolutely no martial arts experience, Orange Lantern even remotely care about pestering the Z-fighters for their for there not even remotely practical techniques?

Hell, he could just use the dragon balls to spread the knowledge if it was REALLY that important.

 

[Coda]

When a set of rules, rather than ethics are the highest arbiter of behavior, it always leads to fucked up shit.

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Ethics, by definition, ARE a set of rules. Or, at the very least, guidelines.

You may be thinking of morals, which are better described as a system of values.

 

[Gilhelmi]

Darn, I can not find the clip from Avatar the Last Airbender, The Ember Island Players, where Azula kills Zuko in the play and he shouts "HONORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR" as he dies.

Cracks me up every time.

 

[Simonbob]

I prefer Dragonball to Dragonball Z. It's more fun, and a bit less silly.


But, as with Dr. Gero's whole "Android" stuff, and the fact that Bulma could understand/make spaceships early in the piece, the fact that humans/earthlings weren't off looking for space stuff......


You just have to sit back and ignore a lot of implications. Or just hate the whole thing.



You know, much like DC Comics.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I prefer Dragonball to Dragonball Z. It's more fun, and a bit less silly.

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Eh, I can agree with part of that. I certainly prefer Kid Goku to Adult Goku. But...less silly? I mean, Goku used his staff to elevator up and drop a couple of villains on the moon. Dragon ball ran on silly.

But, as with Dr. Gero's whole "Android" stuff, and the fact that Bulma could understand/make spaceships early in the piece, the fact that humans/earthlings weren't off looking for space stuff......

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Perhaps the King of the Earth, King Furry, simply wasn't interested in investing in space travel.

Besides....as literally everything in space can kick the shit out of earthlings, why go out there?

You just have to sit back and ignore a lot of implications. Or just hate the whole thing.

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Toriyama wasn't even remotely interested in developing a coherent world. He wanted to draw things he thought were either fun to draw, or cool to draw.

 

[Gantradies]

....
you know, im kinda wondering how booster techniques like the Kaiken would effect Lapis and Lazuli (the Cyborg Twin's Real names according to WOG)- i mean, the whole point of their biotech-cyborg hybrid augmentation was that they essentially have infinite stamina as long as their power source/cybernetics aren't damaged- i think they went with that in..super? when they ended up in the field again-they were more then a little rusty, and didnt have the brute force of some of the monsters in the Z-warriors, but in an endurance match, an "infinite-energy-type Artifical human" is essentially the Energizer bunny.....

.... if absolutely nothing else, that tech could be -very- interesting if the issues/downsides (i think issues with deadened emotional range/reduced ability to express emotion, though that mighta been part of Gero's half-working safeguards/control mechanism...) could be tweaked/fixed- its reliable, by this point proven to work/be stable for years with minimal to no specialized maintenance or medical attention, and "just" significantly improving stamina and durability without an outright magic component has plenty of applications in the civilian sector- if nothing else, extreme sports enthusiasts would pay through the nose.....

 

[Buggy123]

....
you know, im kinda wondering how booster techniques like the Kaiken would effect Lapis and Lazuli-

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Having never seen any of DBZ aside from (part of) the Abridged series, I was pretty confused when I read that.

Also, from what I have seen of DBZ, 'common sense' is a scarce and valuable resource. Even more so than DC, and that's a accomplishment right there. You're bound to find things that make you say "wait, why don't they just-" all over the place.

 

[Gantradies]

Having never seen any of DBZ aside from (part of) the Abridged series, I was pretty confused when I read that.

Also, from what I have seen of DBZ, 'common sense' is a scarce and valuable resource. Even more so than DC, and that's a accomplishment right there.

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i mean, there is a little- one of the thing's they keep coming back to is that you're actually better off drilling/training then endlessly seeking new super modes- if you make your "normal" form/base abilities stronger, even if a powerup burns out you still have more to fall back on (and it multiplicatively improves any of the latter you USE), and Goku in combat-savant mode did outright say that just bulking up would screw you when it made you slower/more clumsy- but aside from that....

 

[Mr Zoat]

8th February
13:37 GMT

I float in space on the edge of the Liot'r system, watching the movements in near-Tamaran orbit. Hawk's Nest has been altered nearly beyond recognition since… Last July? The Thanagarian capital ships are floating in the void close to it, while what I assume is the new Tamaranean fleet is split between a defensive formation around the ex-Citadelian docking cradles and some.. sort of training exercise. I had been assuming that the Tamaraneans would either use their own pre-conquest designs or just use the Citadel's designs for ease of logistics, but these are something different. It could be the Thanagarian influence, but without Nth Metal their designs wouldn't really work…

Tamaran itself has changed as well. I can see new roads connecting the major settlements, and a slight change in colour around farming areas indicating that they're cultivating a much larger area. Roads have an interesting place in Tamaranean society. As the people can fly- and generally do so faster than they can run- they don't have the same utility for people-transportation that roads on Earth do. Historically, Tamaraneans didn't really bother with them, and they existed for only a relatively brief period before they moved to repulsor-based flying transport vehicles which didn't have the same need for prepared surfaces. But now it looks like they've decided that simpler wheeled transport vehicles are the way to go rather than use what technological know-how they have left on civilian transportation, and wheeled vehicles are fulfilling the expanded need to move goods and materials around.

Six months is nothing like enough time to undo the harm of forty years' malevolence, but I'm pleased with the start that they've made. I raise my-.

Space in front of me bends, and a ship-. I feel a momentary intrusion in my mind which is swiftly recalled, though Xor visibly winces. As the ship comes alongside us I see its name written on the side: the Cometeer. Not exactly creative-.

The man himself emerges from the rear of the craft, flying towards us wearing a refreshed version of his old uniform and covered by a golden halo. I wondered how a telekinetic could survive for an extended period in space. Sure, he could maintain a constant pressure on his own skin, but where was he getting his air from? According to Professor Zackro's notes, the concentration of various gasses in his bubble doesn't change, no matter how long he flies around for. Which suggests that he's telekinetically altering the composition of the air he breathes out, a feat which… I'm not aware of any other telekine who can do that.

**Orange Lantern, welcome back.** He glances at Xor, who glowers at him. **I see you've been recruiting.**

**Yes-. I'm sorry, do I call you 'Captain Comet', or is it alright to use your name?**

He shakes his head. **I doubt there's any harm in it. The Tamaraneans still don't understand the concept of 'secret identities'.**

I frown. **Didn't you go public after the Astur attack?**

**No, that was when 'Captain Comet' first started operating in public. May I say? Your mind is fascinating.**

**Ah, thank you? What.. exactly is it about it that you find so interesting?**

**I think… You're transcending your flesh. Not all of what you're thinking is present in your organic brain.** He brings his right hand to his chin. **I've seen things like that before, but never in another human. Oh.** He waves his right hand. **Pardon me. My curiosity got the better of me.**

**Quite alright. I'd actually quite like you to give me a once-over. Not a lot of people have meaningful insight into what I am these days.** I turn to Xor. **This is Lantern Xalitan Xor of Sector One Five Eight Two. Lantern Xor, Adam Blake.**

Blake nods. **Pleased to meet you. That feels like someone used psion imprinting technology on you.**

"They did." Xor inclines his head slightly. "I do not want you touching my mind."

Blake looks him over for a moment. "Alright. Is this acceptable?"

"Yes." Xor breathes in slowly, then out slowly. "I was an orphan, taken in by the state. They gave me this body and shaped my mind with psion technology."

"Is that why you're here?" Blake turns back slightly, gesturing towards distant Tamaran. "To see another world the psions created?"

"They created that world?"

He gestures to the surrounding stars with his right hand. "The psions created nearly everything around here. A few of the older species predate the time when the Guardians transported them to the Wombworld, but the Tamaraneans have records of their entire people being transported to Tamaran. That's one of the reasons why I stopped here when I first came to Vega."

"Did the psions program them?"

"Maybe at first. None of the psions I've met knew."

"The psions do not program them now."

"No, no. The psions weren't interested in using the Tamaraneans for social or psychological experiments. They just wanted to make certain that there would always be a population for them to experiment on. You're free to look through the archive while you're here." He glances back at the Cometeer. "Is Princess Koriand'r with you?"

"No. Is she not here?"

He makes a small shrug. "I assume that she's still on Tillettit, helping those poor women. Komand'r flew back once the Maltusians organised their relief mission." He smiles. "She can fly under her own power, now. She helped a lot of other Tamaraneans by getting that cure rediscovered."

"Oh, I hadn't checked whether that was successful. She's fully cured?"

"No trouble at all."

I smile. "That is good news."

He nods. "So what brings you back to Tamaran?"

"I thought I should check up on the place. I've also got-" Slightly out of date. "-messages from Queen Hyathis for the Blades of Alstair, along with personal messages."

"I'm sure they'll be pleased to hear from the folks back home." He points at his ship. "Why don't you come aboard? Since I'm the only person around here who uses a telekinetic faster than light drive that's the only form we aren't interdicting. It will be a lot faster than flying at sublight speed."

I nod. "Thank you."

He flies back towards his ship's air lock and Xor and I follow him.

"Mister Blake, do you..? Want to return to Earth? If you do, I'd be happy to sub in for you here for a few weeks."

He turns, flying backwards into the air lock so that I can see him shaking his head. "My biggest problem has always been keeping my mind occupied. Myand'r put me in charge of-" Xor and I enter the air lock and Blake triggers it to cycle. "-rebuilding the planet, turning Tamaran back into a space age civilisation just as fast as I can. I've never done anything-. Well, there was one time when I tutored a few tribes in metallurgy so that I could get the parts to repair the Cometeer, but that wasn't on the same scale. I'm needed here and I-"

The air lock interior opens and he leads the way inside.

"-don't have anything to go back to. You thought about my sister's grave for a second when you saw me."

I nod.

"Her children-."

"They never knew me. If they were like me, or if their kids were, I'd come back to give them the benefit of my experience. But as things stand I'm not sure that there's really anything to say. Tell you what: could you take them a letter for me?"

"Of course."

"Thank you." He looks out through the hull-. Oh, that was smooth. We've arrived in near-Tamaran space already. "Komand'r is in Tamarus at the moment, and she and the rest of the royal family are looking forward to talking to you again."

Through the hull I see the glow of orange of the people of Tamaran grow closer as we descend through the atmosphere.

"And I them."

 

[Mr Zoat]

I'd forgotten all about that guy. He's an interesting fellow since I know next to nothing about him. Is his telekinesis and telepathy anything close to GEoM? Because that's the sort of feel I get.

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Richard!

 

[Pinklestia]

"And I him."

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That sounds weird.

 

[Buggy123]

That sounds weird.

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I've seen that sort of phrasing used before. It's not super common, but I think it works.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

I had been assuming that the Tamaranians would either use their own pre-conquest designs or just use the Citadel's designs for ease of logistics, but these are something different. It could be the Thanagarian influence, but without Nth Metal their designs wouldn't really work…

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Given their pre-occupation tech didn't do too well, I'm not surprised they went with newer tech.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

But now it looks like they've decided that simpler wheeled transport vehicles is the way to go rather than use what technological know-how they have left on civilian transportation, and wheeled vehicles are fulfilling the expanded need to move goods and materials around.

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Would he tough for people to carry largish loads, like agricultural products...

Space in front of me bends, and a ship-. I feel a momentary intrusion in my mind which is swiftly recalled, though Xor visibly winces. As the ship comes alongside us I see its name written on the side: the Cometeer. Not exactly creative-.

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Nor subtle. I'm assuming Mister Blake isn't used to people who would prefer not to have their minds read.

He shakes his head. **I doubt there's any harm in it. The Tamaranians still don't understand the concept of 'secret identities'.**

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Heh, I doubt they would. Amazed comics Koriand'r took to it so well on Earth.

**No, that was when 'Captain Comet' first started operating in public. May I say? Your mind is fascinating.**

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Interesting...

**I think… You're transcending your flesh. Not all of what you're thinking is present in your organic brain.** He brings his right hand to his chin. **I've seen things like that before, but never in another human. Oh.** He waves his right hand. **Pardon me. My curiosity got the better of me.**

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Very interesting...

Blake nods. **Pleased to meet you. That feels like someone used psion imprinting technology on you.**

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Theory confirmed?

"They did." Xor inclines his head slightly. "I do not want you touching my mind."

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And Xor doesn't like telepathy. Interesting.

He gestures to the surrounding stars with his right hand. "The psions created nearly everything around here. A few of the older species predate the time when the Guardians transported them to the Wombworld, but the Tamaranians have records of their entire people being transported to Tamaran. That's one of the reasons why I stopped here when I first came to Vega."

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And not many people remember that, do they?

He makes a small shrug. "I assume that she's still on Tillettit, helping those poor women. Komand'r flew back once the Maltusians organised their relief mission." He smiles. "She can fly under her own power, now. She helped a lot of other Tamaranians by getting that cure rediscovered."

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Ah, she fixed that, eh?

"I thought I should check up on the place. I've also got-" Slightly out of date. "-messages from Queen Hyathis for the Blades of Alstair, along with personal messages."

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Too many distractions, eh?

He turns, flying backwards into the air lock so that I can see him shaking his head. "My biggest problem has always been keeping my mind occupied. Myand'r put me in charge of-" Xor and I enter the air lock and Blake triggers it to cycle. "-rebuilding the planet, turning Tamaran back into a space age civilisation just as fast as I can. I've never done anything-. Well, there was one time when I tutored a few tribes in metallurgy so that I could get the parts to repair the Cometeer, but that wasn't on the same scale. I'm needed here and I-"

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Looks like he's where he wants to be.

"-don't have anything to go back to. You thought about my sister's grave for a second when you saw me."

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Oops?

"They never knew me. If they were like me, or if their kids were, I'd come back to give them the benefit of my experience. But as things stands I'm not sure that there's really anything to say. Tell you what: could you take them a letter for me?"

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Let's see how long you take to deliver this Fed-Ex quest.

Ah, the joy of returning to somewhere you did good. Let's hope Koriand'r isn't in trouble, though.

 

[Handlewithcare]

Oh, interesting. A telepath with insight into Paul's psyche? I hope we get to hear that conversation.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Given their pre-occupation tech didn't do too well, I'm not surprised they went with newer tech.

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The tech worked fine. They were outproduced.

 

[Irked]

"And I him."

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Shouldn't this be 'And i her'?

Only person actually referred to by name was Komand'r/Blackfire so saying him seems off.

 

[w34v3r]

Take it up with King Kai then.

Well in truth, the correct answer is that Toriyama just didn't care at that point.

Beyond that, the Kaio-Ken is inherently self destructive. Goku did more damage to himself using it to catch up to Vegeta, then Vegeta did to him. With the average human being having a power level of something like....literally 1 or 2, even a X20 use would be completely useless in most situations that have befallen their earth. All with the added caveat of completely destroying their body. All for a Ki boost that literally only lasts seconds.

And beyond that? Nothing much. We don't even know if Goku himself can teach it, or if it requires certain materials or the like that only the Yardrat have.

We also know that Goku's interests do NOT lean towards teaching the wider world, who do not have the ability to sense Ki, how to teleport OR sense Ki in the first place.

It's not. It's really, really not.

Goku went into it with a body that had spent a lifetime training to super human levels. He went into it with natural genetic gifts that gave him a leg up on even the elite members of his race. With all that, prolonged use out of sheer necessity nearly killed him. The average human does NOT have Goku's physicality.

So first they'd have to spend decades training that up, and then even longer learning a technique that history shows almost no one else has been able to do. All so they can get a multiplier on their incredibly small, weak, near useless Ki Level/Power level.

Or they could just get inside the fucking mech armor that they already have, and has been shown to be widely available.

OR they could get the cybernetic implants that Android 17 and 18 have. Which took two teenagers from baseline humans, to more powerful than an untrained Super Saiya-jin. To say nothing of the tech that apparently made 16 even more powerful than that.

Dr. Gero's research is immensely more valuable to the wider world, then pestering Goku to teach people how to kill themselves with the Kaio-ken. So, again, why would limited charged power ring, absolutely no martial arts experience, Orange Lantern even remotely care about pestering the Z-fighters for their for there not even remotely practical techniques?

Hell, he could just use the dragon balls to spread the knowledge if it was REALLY that important.

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Who the hell is talking about the extras? No, nobody gives a shit about the ki-less idiots who clearly have no clue what genre they're living in.

I'm taking about the rest of the z-fighters and his immediate family, like Gohan.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Shouldn't this be 'And i her'?

Only person actually referred to by name was Komand'r/Blackfire so saying him seems off.

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Yeah, it used to refer to Myand'r just before that, then I changed it but didn't change what came after.

Thank you, corrected.

 

[Lord Ernest]

Every time we see Captain Comet I'm more amazed by his level of power, the guy's practically a telekinetic God and that's awesome. A pity we don't get to see more of him, but hopefully this episode is indeed a Vega adventure and he's part of the crew for the mission.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I'd forgotten all about that guy. He's an interesting fellow since I know next to nothing about him. Is his telekinesis and telepathy anything close to GEoM? Because that's the sort of feel I get.

Richard!

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That was hilarious. Also sorry, I didn't see that it was Story Only.
Sadly though, I don't have a cute little secretary.

 

[Sceptic]

Sadly though, I don't have a cute little secretary.

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That's easily solved. Although there may be potential discrimination lawsuits if your hiring criteria explicitly include size and attractiveness.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I'd forgotten all about that guy. He's an interesting fellow since I know next to nothing about him. Is his telekinesis and telepathy anything close to GEoM? Because that's the sort of feel I get.

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The Emperor is a synthetic god who draws power from an energy-based parallel universe. Adam Blake is a telepath and telekine who is theorised to be a 'future' human like this guy.

 

[Stsword]

I'd forgotten all about that guy. He's an interesting fellow since I know next to nothing about him. Is his telekinesis and telepathy anything close to GEoM? Because that's the sort of feel I get.

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Captain Comet is one of DC's very own Superman pastiches.

A Kansas boy (or at least Mid West, Kansas wasn't specified until post flashpoint) whose parents were named John and Martha who became a star football player and genius with photographic memory and a FISS- Flight, Invulnerability, Strength, Speed, with extra senses, although in this case telepathy, clairvoyance, and empathy.

The comet that mutated him showed up in Green Lantern, where it mutated a Khund, a Dominator, and R'amey Holl of the Corpse.

So in DC there's a radiation that can apparently mutate anybody into a Superman-tier psychic.