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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Buggy123 said:
Aren't details like that sort of unavoidable, here? Earth-16 is based off of the real world, so a lot of things that are true for Earth-16 are true for the real world as well. This plot point is a significant aspect of the story, and you can't discuss the point without touching on topics that apply to the real world just as much as Earth-16.

I mean, as another example, the Justice League is at least nominally under the authority of the U.N., and the limitations and rulings set upon the League has come up repeatedly. And it's, more-or-less, the same U.N. as the real world.
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I appreciate that it makes discussion difficult sometimes, but frankly it's better than the alternative.

The issue is less the question (Can Orange Lantern get the nations of this world to agree to this monitoring method) and more the direct parallels (Nations X, Y and Z have done Shady Thing Q in the real world). If you want to pull examples of shady stuff that has been ascribed to the various fictionalised governments of the DC universe then that should be fine.
 
TotalAbsolutism said:
I appreciate that it makes discussion difficult sometimes, but frankly it's better than the alternative.

The issue is less the question (Can Orange Lantern get the nations of this world to agree to this monitoring method) and more the direct parallels (Nations X, Y and Z have done Shady Thing Q in the real world). If you want to pull examples of shady stuff that has been ascribed to the various fictionalised governments of the DC universe then that should be fine.
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Alright, fair enough, I'll do that then.



I'm pretty certain Vaermina won't respond anyway, but for form's sake I'll correct my argument:
Vaermina said:
There's no way you are winning that argument given the fundamental rights issue at stake and how few people actually end up as ritual sacrifices every year.
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In Paragon-verse, the world recently suffered a traumatizing attack that effected... basically everyone. Every parent on earth briefly, and sometimes permanently, lost their child. While this has faded from the public attention a little, it's not as if people have forgotten.

And general magic education is still very poor, despite OL's best efforts. It's entirely possible that a lot of people see magic as "that weird and scary stuff that took my child from me, but some heros also use for good". A person thinking in those terms isn't going to have a lot of objections for a global magic-monitoring system; they aren't going to be affected, the good guys have nothing to fear, and it helps catch the bad guys.

Furthermore, there's plenty of history of DC governments dropping the ball and pulling shitty or shady stuff. For one, on the U.S. side, there's Shade, and people like General Hardcastle remain in power. Something like half of the U.K. governance are participants in a cannibalistic, slavery-using, sacrifice-making, demon-worshipping cult.

Really, "government does something stupid, evil, and probably in violation of basic human rights and dignity" is one of the big comic book tropes.


And, on top of all this, what if OL got the League or other major superheros to vouch for it? That might be a hard sell for some of them, but it'd lend it a lot of credibility if the major heroic magic users were pushing for it.
 
Buggy123 said:
In Paragon-verse, the world recently suffered a traumatizing attack that effected... basically everyone. Every parent on earth briefly, and sometimes permanently, lost their child. While this has faded from the public attention a little, it's not as if people have forgotten.
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Heck, I'll chime in on this 'cause I find it interesting; he may be able to at least get his foot in the door with basically the equivalent of a global nuclear strike early warning system; some method that can detect magical power build-up above level 'X' simply by suggesting that there really isn't a system in place to stop some sufficiently dedicated crazy person with access to the right books from doing literally just that again.

It would be a good point to start from, at the very least, and neatly shut down most objections to any sort of 'Big Brother' style universal monitoring method by starting from what you could suggest, to the populace at large at least, is an unreasonable level of magical energies to be channeling.
 
Yeah, but there's always fairly easy ways for someone even slightly competent to get around things like national registries. For guns, 20 years ago smuggling was a thing, and guns can be made from simple components that can even be 3D printed nowadays. Prohibition is similar, for a historical example. With some other illegal things (such as slave and drug trading on the Dark Web), VPNs are a thing nowadays as well. Hopefully, saying that doesn't cross the no politics rule, since it's fairly old, and more to do with technology than politics. Also, it avoids whether or not it should be done, and argues for whether or not it's even possible.

With magic, everyone evil worth fighting is probably competent enough to avoid a national registry registering them in some way. Maybe with the same way they're keeping OL from tracking them. Everyone not competent enough, such as novices trying to gain power through blood sacrifice, can't really be considered a dangerous mage. And if they have a teacher, untraceability will just become one of the first things taught. Don't really see the registry working out for catching old offenders. At best, you can idiot proof magic, but the risk of it going wrong, and difficulty of learning it, already makes it idiot proof. However, the more you idiot proof things with registries, the better people get at hiding illegal activity in general, and the more it gets concentrated on being done by select individuals, leading to fewer, but worse crimes. This is actually possibly fairly similar to DC. Scarcity causes demand, which raises funding for supply, allowing more creative solutions. What they can do, to avoid the people now being trained in magic from going evil, is to keep a registry of students' magic. Though that might start to lead to a situation like in the Dragon Age games, now that I think about it.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

The rule is not 'no politics'. The rule is 'no modern politics', 'modern' being defined as 'the last twenty years'. The Second Amendment to the US Constitution is 228 years old.
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Discussion of gun control laws is much more modern, really only coming to a head in the past 20 years, with the ability to actually keep track of guns with things like fairly cheap computers and the internet, capable of recording every gun sold preety much ever.
 
It is really inconsiderate of these magic cultists to hide all of their empowered equipment from the latest adventurer. Your dungeon has been invaded, your minions thwarted, your traps sprung, your backstory touched upon, your plan ruined and your doomsday device is being torn to shreds.

What more do you want?! Start sharing the loot!

Edit: As for the global magical energy detector/warning system... There are so many incidents involving a hero mucking with a neutral or positive "monstrous" party of supernatural or magical origin that leads to violence. I have a feeling that every solstice and eclipse, just for starters, will measure a magical buildup somewhere on the planet which does not require a nuke or militarized response.
 
I've been seeing a bunch of stills from the injustice comics on social media and it got me wondering, do we have any omakes from paul living in the injustice universe?
 
Vaermina said:
There's no way you are winning that argument given the fundamental rights issue at stake and how few people actually end up as ritual sacrifices every year.


Paul... This is stupid even for you...

For all you know that could be the Horseman Famine or some other being that could instantly turn you into giblets.
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*dryly* in that case, im sure you have no problem with being the next sacrifice yourself...
i mean, you'll probably be the only one this month!
 
Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

The rule is not 'no politics'. The rule is 'no modern politics', 'modern' being defined as 'the last twenty years'. The Second Amendment to the US Constitution is 228 years old.
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In this you are wrong.

It is like saying Trump isn't modern politics just because he was born over 20 years ago.
When I am pretty sure getting into a Trump Rant™ here (on either side) will earn you a nice little vacation for drowning the thread in politics. Modern Politics.

The Second Amendment is old hat, but Gun Control is very much a Current Political Issue. So getting into what you think the right, proper, or sane response about Gun Control is or should be is in fact a Rule Eight violation. Look again at the first post that prompted the Moderator response.

For example, Abortion and Women's rights is Modern Politics (Roe Vs Wade being over 20 years ago notwithstanding) because it is something people have divisive opinions about, and lobbyists both for and against. But women being allowed to vote or the prohibition of alcohol are Not Modern Politics because there is no large scale opposing viewpoints within the last 20 years, and they have this became settled issues, as opposed to raging clusterfucks the forum administration doesn't want to have to deal with.
 
Senevri said:
OL: "Violence is the answer."
DC characters: "Seems legit."
Well. He's gone native.
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Violence is the answer to a fairly narrow range of problems, one of which the SI is encountering. That is to say, an ancient serial murderer.
NightmareWarden said:
I don't think we do! Which is particularly odd since we even got a Marvel Cinematic Universe omake for him.
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Yes, but I've watched the cinematic universe. The story for Injustice just doesn't make enough sense for me to want to write one.
Bramble Thorn said:
In this you are wrong.

It is like saying Trump isn't modern politics just because he was born over 20 years ago.
When I am pretty sure getting into a Trump Rant™ here (on either side) will earn you a nice little vacation for drowning the thread in politics. Modern Politics.

The Second Amendment is old hat, but Gun Control is very much a Current Political Issue. So getting into what you think the right, proper, or sane response about Gun Control is or should be is in fact a Rule Eight violation. Look again at the first post that prompted the Moderator response.

For example, Abortion and Women's rights is Modern Politics (Roe Vs Wade being over 20 years ago notwithstanding) because it is something people have divisive opinions about, and lobbyists both for and against. But women being allowed to vote or the prohibition of alcohol are Not Modern Politics because there is no large scale opposing viewpoints within the last 20 years, and they have this became settled issues, as opposed to raging clusterfucks the forum administration doesn't want to have to deal with.
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There is nothing that has been part of politics over twenty years ago that has not been a contentious issue within the last twenty years somewhere. Women voting is a contentious issue in several countries.
 
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I suspect the intent is something more like "no tribal/identity politics", is. no topics that major groups of political alignment among the playerbase are currently making hay with.

The reasoning would be that people have an unusually hard time tolerating/disregarding divergent opinions on topics under active contention or that are central to their identity. Ie. since politically "hot" topics tend to escalate while they're ongoing, the forum wants to avoid becoming a battleground for them.

From that perspective, the intent of the 20 year rule would be that such politics are likely to be dead and done with, which is obviously not the case with gun control.
 
Vaermina said:
There's no way you are winning that argument given the fundamental rights issue at stake and how few people actually end up as ritual sacrifices every year.
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No, sorry, but given a traumatic event of the magnitude of Klarion's little stunt people would be lining up to sign away those "fundamental rights" to ensure that it could never happen again. It's unfortunate, but we've seen it happen in the real world more than once so arguing that it wouldn't happen is just silly. The most recent example I'm going to give (because Rule 8) is the Japanese American internment camps during WW2.
 
Buggy123 said:
Alright, fair enough, I'll do that then.

I'm pretty certain Vaermina won't respond anyway, but for form's sake I'll correct my argument:

In Paragon-verse, the world recently suffered a traumatizing attack that effected... basically everyone. Every parent on earth briefly, and sometimes permanently, lost their child. While this has faded from the public attention a little, it's not as if people have forgotten.

And general magic education is still very poor, despite OL's best efforts. It's entirely possible that a lot of people see magic as "that weird and scary stuff that took my child from me, but some heros also use for good". A person thinking in those terms isn't going to have a lot of objections for a global magic-monitoring system; they aren't going to be affected, the good guys have nothing to fear, and it helps catch the bad guys.

Furthermore, there's plenty of history of DC governments dropping the ball and pulling shitty or shady stuff. For one, on the U.S. side, there's Shade, and people like General Hardcastle remain in power. Something like half of the U.K. governance are participants in a cannibalistic, slavery-using, sacrifice-making, demon-worshipping cult.

Really, "government does something stupid, evil, and probably in violation of basic human rights and dignity" is one of the big comic book tropes.

And, on top of all this, what if OL got the League or other major superheros to vouch for it? That might be a hard sell for some of them, but it'd lend it a lot of credibility if the major heroic magic users were pushing for it.
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All of which is completely meaningless since it would violate the US's 4th Amendment and numerous EU privacy laws for what's likely at most one or two people dying a month.
 
Vaermina said:
All of which is completely meaningless since it would violate the US's 4th Amendment and numerous EU privacy laws for what's likely at most one or two people dying a month.
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Thats unfortunately close to the 20 year rule for me to directly call you a retard but just think back and realize your stupidity
 
Senevri said:
Just mentally add "in America" to every post.
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DAT_NOOB said:
allow me to clarify why is Zatanna giving orgy maigc?
Here:
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I think the implication was that a group would be performing a magic orgy and trigger the detection system, much in the same way that burning toast triggers smoke alarms.

Of course, given how Astra Logue ended up in Hell maybe it's worth checking.
Ardy said:
Thats unfortunately close to the 20 year rule for me to directly call you a retard but just think back and realize your stupidity
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Even if you wish to disagree with someone vehemently, please take a moment to be a little more polite about it than this.
 
Vaermina said:
All of which is completely meaningless since it would violate the US's 4th Amendment and numerous EU privacy laws for what's likely at most one or two people dying a month.
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.... .... .... Ok Vaermina. We can't get into this here, so I'm just going to go back to pretending not to see any of your posts for a while.
 
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