With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mquz]

According to Zoat, Constantine thinks Paul meant that he was a comic book character pulled into the real world rather than the other way around.

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Then how does that explain Paul knowing things like the Dog (or whatever that guard dog is called is Good? The original reason he asked Paul about how he knows things? Unless he thinks Paul is a comic character pulled into the real world from a world where the real world was in comics that Paul read? In which case, the fact that Earth prime is in Earth 16 comics doesn't matter (also, really boring comics).

 

[Ardy]

Then how does that explain Paul knowing things like the Dog (or whatever that guard dog is called is Good? The original reason he asked Paul about how he knows things? Unless he thinks Paul is a comic character pulled into the real world from a world where the real world was in comics that Paul read? In which case, the fact that Earth prime is in Earth 16 comics doesn't matter (also, really boring comics).

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I don't know, ask Zoat

 

[Mquz]

So... this ritual (which someone had to have previously figured out), can trap Endless. Does that mean that someone actually DID use it to trap Death/ another Endless back in the past, when it was first written?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Extraneous space
She finally released my shoulder, turning away and gesturing to the plastic enclosure with both hand.
She finally released my shoulder, turning away and gesturing to the plastic enclosure with both hands.
How many times those nightmare became real, breaking into the material universe to wreak havoc?"
How many times those nightmares became real, breaking into the material universe to wreak havoc?"
"DC wanted a way to merged the superheroic setting of...
"DC wanted a way to merge the superheroic setting of...

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Mquz]

I forget... did this version of Hector Hall still live in the dream stream?

 

[Vaermina]

"Do you know what happens when one of the Endless dies? The sheer.. devastation it wreaks across the universe. I'm old enough to remember when the last Despair died... Hateful.. monster." Her eyes widen slightly as she continues to stare me down. "And I find that this planet has ways to make that happen. And they know it. My species was rendered incapable of dreaming due to a broken love affair, and I can only guess at what the ongoing side effects of that are."

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Sucks to be you guys then, humans don't even really notice when one of the Endless bite the big one.

She takes a deep breath. "A child's fairy story of it. Any number of beings with more knowledge than sense might be allowing corrupted records to slip into your home parallel."

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Dawww, she's having an existential crisis.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I always thought that this made a lot more sense than having it be possible for a ritual conducted by relative amateurs with no major resources to fundamentally change the way that the entire universe works.

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Eh. Earth is a high magic planet thst plays host to the Life Entity, and humans are able to become gods. Earth is Fifth World. All sorts of shit is fucked here.

It's unsurprising that a more powerful and easier to comprehend anarchists cookbook was foumd on earth by infants.

 

[Mquz]

Sucks to be you guys then, humans don't even really notice.


Dawww, she's having an existential crisis.

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This is Earth ... nightmare monsters happen every week. Dream was also in close proximity to Earth, so we might have been less affected as far as not being able to dream goes.

A bit more than just a crisis... multiple universes were destroyed, planets might have been wiped out of existence, villains that were defeated in one timeline might have come back to life and killed heroes. It was probably WORSE for people who were thousands of years old, due to having more of a merged history. Wouldn't be surprised if most Malthusians just flat out died due to being dead in at least one universe. Also, the Daww is just rude ... in this context.

 

[PDV]

This may be a bit off point but I believe it was covered in some of the side novels that the only reason why Dream was able to be bond was that he was gravely weakened from fighting some kind of lovecraftian horror and that only the version of him that exists for Humanity was imprisoned.

I always thought that this made a lot more sense than having it be possible for a ritual conducted by relative amateurs with no major resources to fundamentally change the way that the entire universe works.

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I read that graphic novel last month and still have it on my bedside table, and you remember slightly wrong. Yes, he was weakened greatly by fighting a Lovecraftian horror - and also rendered mostly incapable of remembering the fight existed, which was better than everyone else managed - and he was in the form of the Dream of Humanity, but that was the only Dream that existed at that moment. As soon as he got back to the Dreaming, he'd probably have replenished his strength and become all the Dreams simultaneously, but there was only one Dream when he got caught. And it's not clear that the single Dream that existed was in any real sense the Dream of Humanity, rather than each individual Dream of X perceiving himself(/themself) as the sole remaining one. There's the bait-and-switch where

Spoiler: Dream of Cats/Del

there appears to be Dream of Humans and Dream of Cats traveling together, but Delight/Delirium reveals that "Dream of Cats" isn't Dream at all. Right near the end the readers are informed that it was Desire in disguise, because Dream is too proud to accept help from anyone but himself. Knowing that it was never another Dream removes 90% of the reason to think that the Dream who existed was a specific Dream.

Speaking of Delight/Delirium, wouldn't Paul remember that she became Delirium? That seems important to mention when told that Delight is missing.

 

[Mquz]

I read that graphic novel last month and still have it on my bedside table, and you remember slightly wrong. Yes, he was weakened greatly by fighting a Lovecraftian horror - and also rendered mostly incapable of remembering the fight existed, which was better than everyone else managed - and he was in the form of the Dream of Humanity, but that was the only Dream that existed at that moment. As soon as he got back to the Dreaming, he'd probably have replenished his strength and become all the Dreams simultaneously, but there was only one Dream when he got caught. And it's not clear that the single Dream that existed was in any real sense the Dream of Humanity, rather than each individual Dream of X perceiving himself(/themself) as the sole remaining one. There's the bait-and-switch where

Spoiler: Dream of Cats/Del

there appears to be Dream of Humans and Dream of Cats traveling together, but Delight/Delirium reveals that "Dream of Cats" isn't Dream at all. Right near the end the readers are informed that it was Desire in disguise, because Dream is too proud to accept help from anyone but himself. Knowing that it was never another Dream removes 90% of the reason to think that the Dream who existed was a specific Dream.

Speaking of Delight/Delirium, wouldn't Paul remember that she became Delirium? That seems important to mention when told that Delight is missing.

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Mentioning that Delight is Delirium to a Malthusian might get her angry if this is a secret. Also, no way to know for sure.

 

[BR549]

Mentioning that Delight is Delirium to a Malthusian might get her angry if this is a secret.

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'Her' being Delirium, or the Malthusian?
And IIRC it's not so much a secret as 'nobody considers it worth mentioning to the mortals'.

Also, no way to know for sure.

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The preponderance of the evidence is sufficient, here.

 

[Stsword]

All this talk about crisis is amusing to me, honestly.

Because Earth-16, the world of Young Justice, didn't exist when the Crisis happened nor was it birthed by Crisis.

Earth-16 was created as one of 51 identical duplicates of New Earth by Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis.

The 51 duplicate worlds were then noshed on by Mr Mind, making them different, so Earth-16's history prior to 2006 is one big retconn.

Now of course, as the author, Zoat is free to treat Earth-16 like it came into existence from Crisis, it's his story, it's not like DC is going to send Superboy Prime after him.

But I do find it amusing.

 

[Mr Zoat]

All this talk about crisis is amusing to me, honestly.

Because Earth-16, the world of Young Justice, didn't exist when the Crisis happened nor was it birthed by Crisis.

Earth-16 was created as one of 51 identical duplicates of New Earth by Alexander Luthor in Infinite Crisis.

The 51 duplicate worlds were then noshed on by Mr Mind, making them different, so Earth-16's history prior to 2006 is one big retconn.

Now of course, as the author, Zoat is free to treat Earth-16 like it came into existence from Crisis, it's his story, it's not like DC is going to send Superboy Prime after him.

But I do find it amusing.

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Or maybe that retcon only happened as the result of a retcon.

Otherwise it only existed for a couple of decades.

 

[Stsword]

Otherwise it only existed for a couple of decades.

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Earth-16 and Earth 16 aren't the same universe, they're different universes in different multiverses that share a numbering.

In Multiversity though, The Empty Hand states that "My legions await my command. They feed and grow strong on the starry carcass of our previous victim- Multiverse 2!"

So apparently the Gentry are eating the 52 multiverse.

But since the Empty Hand is the embodiment of losing fans (the hand is empty when you put down the comic book), Earth-16 would have gotten a reprieve from Season 3.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

You're taking the opportunity to play a game. To remind me that I don't control you as the Guardians control the Green Lanterns."

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I'd actually say he's being rather polite in asking you to stop being such a bitch.

Though now I'd say Hinon is approaching "Countdown to villainhood." were this a normal comic.

 

[Pinklestia]

Oh El... why?

When someone gives a "Guardian" control a whole sector of the universe dies. That's why the Red Lanterns exist.

Who watches the guardians?

And then those same guys have the gal to make a truce with the Reach, you know the same species that uses technology so dangerous no other species dares to use unless the Reach gives them the idea?

The Oa Guardians have bought so much of their own lies they have become complacent and less effectice. Nuking whole sectors would win the War with the Reach.

And she wants the same kind of power?

Also newflash, stuff like the death of Dream happens on Earth all the fucking time!

No wonder the New Gods decided to GTF put of Earth instead of having the equivalent of ANOTHER war with the Titans.

And the Titans and the "Old Gods" they aren't gone.

Is hard to get scared when not even the divine that were supposed to have been replaced stay dead.

Either Death of the Endless is a troll or the Greek Pantheon is more Endless that the Endless.

 

[Tzeentch]

"Do you know what happens when one of the Endless dies? The sheer.. devastation it wreaks across the universe. I'm old enough to remember when the last Despair died... Hateful.. monster."

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Now, is this referring to the last Despair as a hateful monster, (given she might be responsible for Superman being the "last" kryptonian for the sake of "Art", I can believe that), or the mysterious unknown person who actually managed to slaughter the fat god-hag?

My species was rendered incapable of dreaming due to a broken love affair, and I can only guess at what the ongoing side effects of that are.

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Eventually, someone is going to call out Dream for his Olympian-esque actions, and hopefully get away with it, I just know it.

"Someone on this planet already knew how to bind the Endless? I… Don't.. Believe…"

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Well, to be fair, Dream was SEVERELY weakened around the time he was trapped, seeing as he just helped retcon the universe from total annihilation, and according to him, the ritual The Order used to bind him was likened to a hedge-magicking, Twopenny spell...

 

[Pinklestia]

Eventually, someone is going to call out Dream for his Olympian-esque actions, and hopefully get away with it, I just know it.

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Part of the reason Dream commited suicide was because he realised how much of a jerk he was, but mostly he was bored. He did kind of regret being such a jerk to his son at least.

 

[Albert Scoot]

This reminds me of that bit in the story a long time ago where Paul brags to some other person that he built his own soul. Then he tried to pass off the credit on other people when the other person remarks that it's an abomination.

 

[Pinklestia]

This reminds me of that bit in the story a long time ago where Paul brags to some other person that he built his own soul. Then he tried to pass off the credit on other people when the other person remarks that it's an abomination.

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Technically Oh El Soul is made of one of the lights of creation so the guy who insulted Paul was wrong.

 

[Gantradies]

Well, there is a precedent for it *looks pointedly at Flex Mentallo*.

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indeed there is.... *peers at the man of muscle mystery*

 

[Breadnaught]

"Someone on this planet already knew how to bind the Endless? I… Don't.. Believe…"

"Do you know what happens when one of the Endless dies? The sheer.. devastation it wreaks across the universe. I'm old enough to remember when the last Despair died... Hateful.. monster." Her eyes widen slightly as she continues to stare me down. "And I find that this planet has ways to make that happen. And they know it. My species was rendered incapable of dreaming due to a broken love affair, and I can only guess at what the ongoing side effects of that are."

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This strikes me as a sort of Reverse-Lovecraft situation.

Ancient and unfathomable beings, powerful, primordial forces that have shaped the universe for uncounted eons ... they live in a peaceful ocean of calm and sanity, praying the small mortal creatures, from the little island of madness, don't turn their attention towards them. Praying they pass beneath our notice.

 

[Ardy]

Technically Oh El Soul is made of one of the lights of creation so the guy who insulted Paul was wrong.

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That was Grayven, and she was referring to the mishmosh of antilife, new god, and Orange and Yellow lights that made up his soul

 

[Ganurath]

This strikes me as a sort of Reverse-Lovecraft situation.

Ancient and unfathomable beings, powerful, primordial forces that have shaped the universe for uncounted eons ... they live in a peaceful ocean of calm and sanity, praying the small mortal creatures, from the little island of madness, don't turn their attention towards them. Praying they pass beneath our notice.

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So... the Endless are basically allergic to bees, and have a hive in their back yard.

 

[Massgamer]

I always like these talks of wider multiverse, makes one feel so small and big at the same time.

Also makes things confusing and make sense as well somehow.

 

[Handlewithcare]

And Hinon wants to be in charge of all that? Responsible for this mess?

Guuuurrrrllll there must be easier ways to get Desperation/Frustration enlightenment.

 

[Mquz]

And Hinon wants to be in charge of all that? Responsible for this mess?

Guuuurrrrllll there must be easier ways to get Desperation/Frustration enlightenment.

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More like she wants to be able to correct people's errors - not force them to change through direct control, but be able to act as an advisor so that people with too much power don't do something stupid, or prevent them through force if they're about to do something really stupid and dangerous like bind one of the endless just to not die. She wants to be in the loop, which doesn't seem like that bad a thing.

 

[Valint]

And Hinon wants to be in charge of all that? Responsible for this mess?

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Basically, the Controllers want to be Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard). Their primary disagreement with the Guardians is that the Guardians aren't willing to kill enough people.

They're basically every SB/SV/QQ poster who thinks that you have to break a few eggs to make omelettes, and that worrying about collateral damage is for wimps. (I mean, if they're in a blast radius centered on a villain, they're probably guilty of something. Probably.)

 

[Ardy]

Basically, the Controllers want to be Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard). Their primary disagreement with the Guardians is that the Guardians aren't willing to kill enough people.

They're basically every SB/SV/QQ poster who thinks that you have to break a few eggs to make omelettes, and that worrying about collateral damage is for wimps. (I mean, if they're in a blast radius centered on a villain, they're probably guilty of something. Probably.)

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Yeah, but it's kind of hard to argue with hinon in this case considering one random retard caused universe-wide catastrophes

 

[Vaermina]

Either Death of the Endless is a troll or the Greek Pantheon is more Endless that the Endless.

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That's because the Endless are massively over-hyped.