With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Vaermina]

"Thousands of eyeballs floated into the sky, came together in blobs and started accusing the locals of 'breaking the covenant'."

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And that's why you always ask what the reason for a thing is before you murder everyone.

 

[l---erddad---l]

Ah yes, the eye-gouger planet.

To be honest I'm kinda annoyed that you gave the priests any actual excuse. This sounds more like a demon deal gonne wrong than anything else.

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Until Zoat says otherwise, I'm just gonna assume that it's less demon-pact gone wrong and more that annoying little thing about how belief can shape the Dreaming, thus making gods and such exist retroactively.

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I'm expecting either the priests to have entered into the covenant willingly, or for them to have specifically picked all the women when only 50% of the population was necessary.

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Yeah, I would assume that it was at worst a deal they were pressured into making and then as a society learned for it to be moral, but I doubt it: It's probably just their gods, with the covenant being the supposed contract of protection.

And this is why you don't just wholesale slaughter an entire group you know nothing about.

I wonder if they even knew about this, or if it was just a coincidence that they kept it going for so long. Probably someone high up knew but if the common citizens didn't then I doubt most of the priests did.

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Killing all of them was definitely not the most correct action, and I don't know enough about the rest to know how they dealt with those that weren't taking violence against women but were raised to be misogynistic, but I don't think it was a wrong answer, just not as good as some others might be.

Of course, there's also Orange Enlightenment coming into play, deciding how much effort he's willing to expend to make the society better. Western society tends to be super into all-or-nothing, either doing it right or not doing it at all, while Paul is willing to put in enough work to get the ball rolling even if the solution isn't optimal.

 

[Istaran]

The SI's Sword of the Fallen was destroyed by the Angels of the Silver City.

The Renegade still has his.

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In that case I expect to see some side conversation at some point in Renegade's story where he casually mentions stabbing the eyeball god while on a field trip with the kiddos.

 

[TheEyes]

Well, apparently the planet that used to cut the eyes out of all their females before the Orange Lantern Corps defenestrated the clergy, had a bunch of eyes show up out of nowhere, form into blobs, and start haranguing the locals for 'breaking the covenant'.

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Huh. And OL couldn't just assimilate it? I thought he could do that with demons. OL with a bunch of creepy orange eyes flying around him feels almost nostalgic after all these years.

He still has the sword of the fallen,right?

So if god or not: EYEBALL STAP!

Although it is commendable he wants to check for side-effects first.

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No, he lost it when the angels were tricked into targeting him. It's Grayven who still has his Sword.

 

[Hammerfury]

Called it. Called it like from the very beginning.
A society doesn't make such important religious rules without a reason. Even in real life history, most religious laws had good reasons for existing at the time they were made. Such an impractical law as blinding the females wouldn't have spread out, unless if there was an actual reason.
Paul brought this on himself actually, and I hope this matter isn't solved easily. It should teach him to read between the lines in future situations.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Killing the eye-gouging cultists still was not a bad choice, imo. Preferably, Paul should have investigated why they did it, and stab the malevolent being while he still had the Sword, though.

 

[Vaermina]

Something to keep in mind, if this is an actual Cthulu style being, going by canon precedence the Orange Light wouldn't work on it.

 

[Agent Orange]

OL should just ask Ophi-chan give him a boost and respond with his own eye swarm. He did it before. This should end in one big eye-measuring contest of destiny.

 

[moralrelativity]

A world under NEMO's protection

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Not this Nemo?

 

[Darko]

He still has the sword of the fallen,right?

So if god or not: EYEBALL STAP!

Although it is commendable he wants to check for side-effects first.

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Karrien stole it and it was destroyed by an Angel King when Karrien tried to kill him.

The paragon may get another Sword if he travels to canon Earth 16 and kills that Nabu.

I'm pretty sure Zoat once mentioned the SI may travel to the canon universe sometimes during the ending of this story.

Still even without the Sword he could just use FEED ME on the thing and absorb it or assimilate it.

He could even do some avarice manipulation on the thing like with what he did on that gluttony elemental/demon during the Oceanus episode, making him lose his desires.

This thing exists on a planet that is mystically active but has no magic tradition so maybe it doesn't have experience dealing with people than can seriously harm it on spiritual level.
Though this is an assumption and I may be wrong.

And that's why you always ask what the reason for a thing is before you murder everyone.

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In some cases people do horrible things for a god that may not even exist.

Just because this is a universe where magic and gods exist, it doesn't mean that every single thing that people believe exists actually exists.

In that case I expect to see some side conversation at some point in Renegade's story where he casually mentions stabbing the eyeball god while on a field trip with the kiddos.

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The renegade actually didn't go to that planet to recruit anyone.

A majority of his recruits seem to be Tamaraneans.

Something to keep in mind, if this is an actual Cthulu style being, going by canon precedence the Orange Light wouldn't work on it.

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This is most likely just you're run of the mill magic entity, like a typical Old God, but it likes to take on a more eldritch like appearance than you're typical Old God.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Low Politics

4th April
09:12 GMT -1

I appear in the air over the mid-Atlantic, empathic vision scanning the seas below for the man who-. There he is. I

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Couple of days after last episode. Aw, that means we missed seeing Hinon and Batman's respective reactions to the reports on the last couple of episodes... I'll bet it was noisy.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

step out

and appear short distance from him within his field of view. Lord-. No, King Cyprian is moving his hands, water rippling around them to unleash a destructive pressure blast before he's even consciously aware of who it is that just appeared. I raise my hands as his not-much-slower-off-the-mark bodyguards begin preparing their attacks as well.

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I might be forgetting my Atlantean politics. Wasn't this the guy fighting Queen Clea, over in the Renegade's timeline?

"I'm sorry, but-"

He moves to conceal his hands as he dismisses the spell, consciously relaxing his posture to indicate that his guard should stand at ease. He's hoping that I didn't notice his preparedness, or the situation with the rest of Atlantis that caused it.

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Honestly, I would casually ignore that moment of panicked spellwork. Act like he didn't just pull a loaded gun on someone seemingly popping out of nowhere. Really, OL, you need to arrange some kind of warning system for the greediport.

"-I urgently need-"

Spell dismissed, he raises his right hand to stand down the guard and straightens his posture.

"-to talk to you."

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I suppose if he's in a hurry, it's one way to skip the queues.

"Illustres Paul. You can simply make an appointment. Since we're working together I've put you on the 'priority approval' list."

"Too slow. I urgently need to hire as many archmages as you can spare."

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Buh-wah? Okay, what the hell did OL get into now?

He conceals his concern well, but whatever protections he routinely uses aren't blocking my empathy. I'll warn him about that after this meeting.

"What for?"

"Magic users are uncommon is the galaxy at large. A world under NEMO's protection is being threatened by a magic-based intelligence and it doesn't have a native magic tradition. NEMO doesn't have good access to magic users inside its territories and.. those it could get generally aren't as well educated as Atlanteans."

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I expect there'll be a short bit of teething trouble as they adjust to each other anyway. Hope it's not a desperate rush, 'world ending as we speak' matter. Otherwise he'd have gone to John-Fate.

"What sort of intelligence?"

"Thousands of eyeballs floated into the sky, came together in blobs and started accusing the locals of 'breaking the covenant'."

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...Wait, is this the 'puts out the eyeballs of pubescent females' planet? I'm guessing the priests didn't mention the divine covenant angle...

"Ah. Yes, that does sound like magic."

I see a little spark of interest, swiftly doused.

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Interesting. I suppose sending his best mages away will weaken his position...

"Do you know the nature of the covenant? If it's just a matter of making a votive offering-."

"No."

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Unless you can get a hold of a talented necromancer...

"I realise that it's concerning, but as king I make a number of ritual offerings and sacrifices each year to gods whom Venturia no longer worships. These-."

"I can't find out because my colleagues and I killed all of the priests."

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...It will be hard to get any info from them.

"Oh. Yes, that.. would make things rather difficult."

"I don't want to negotiate. I want to kill it. I'm confident that the local Orange Lanterns and I can kill it, but I want to check that there won't be any blowback and that it isn't doing anything actively against the civilian population other than being really disturbing."

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Like, you know, managing the ecosystem or something...

King Cyprian nods slowly. "We can help with that. Do you have any other requirements?"

"Everyone you select must be able to survive exposure to magic-based planes of reality, because that's how we'll be travelling."

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...You're not going to greediport them, are you? Because Hinon noted that was a bad idea...

"That cuts it down considerably. But I'm certain that we can-" He looks over to a courtier. "-draw up a list."

The courtier nods and activates a scrying pool.

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Good to see him taking it seriously, anyway. I suspect most people wouldn't take OL at his word so quickly...

"Given.. the.. international situation, I'm afraid that I can't simply release our archmages without getting something in return. I assume you're offering something in exchange?"

"Yes. A LEGION defence contract."

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Ah, Dox did make use of the acronym after all.

While I doubt that he'd offer something like this Dox is rather interested in recruiting magic users on an ongoing basis. We didn't even know that Tillettit was mystically active, and if there's one thing Dox hates it's intelligence oversights.

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I bet he got a single red letter in his thoughts and everything.

"Is.. that..?"

"Licensed Extra-Governmental Interstellar Operations Network. NEMO's space fleet and marine corps. If you accept the pact, your security becomes our concern. Please note that this will only cover defensive operations. If you start a fight you can't finish, we don't care."

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How... sensible of them. I suppose Dox has a system for gauging the probability of success for these things.

"I don't intend to. You're.. aware then that relations with Atlantis…"

"I know that you were crowned king and declared independence. I don't know enough about Atlantean law to know how problematic that is."

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Considering most countries react to that sort of thing with military action when possible...

"Generally speaking, when part of your country decides that it doesn't want to be part of your country any longer, that means war."

"Is King Orin going to take that option?"

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To be honest, ol' Arthur might be understanding of matters. American history and all that...

"I'm not sure that I've given him much choice. What do you know about the political situation?"

"Not much. And to be honest, it's not my problem."

"This agreement will make it your problem."

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No, it'll make it Dox's Problem. OL is the field leader, not the supreme commander of the joint operations.

"No, it won't. I don't care who was right or wrong… Does this go back to Princess Diana's fight with Queen Clea?"

"No, before that."

I think for a moment, then shrug. "I still don't care. Your city has been disconnected for long enough that hardly anyone in Atlantis is going to be meaningfully effected. If the royal family had decades to fix the problem and didn't, then they don't have any cause for complaint. I would however respectfully suggest that it might be politically advantageous to hold a ballot on the subject, but otherwise it isn't my concern."

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I doubt Atlantean society works much like Hellenic Greece or Antiquarian Rome...

He regards me curiously. "A ballot?"

"King Orin grew up in America, a democracy. He's used to the idea that the will of the majority of the citizens should set the direction of policy. I assume that you have an up to date census?"

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Ha, walking the king through the process of taking a referendum...

A mild frown. "Of course we do."

"Then invite a few observers from other city states in and get your citizens to record their preference: independence or reunification. If you get a decent majority in favour of your position then he'll feel that he's in the wrong, and you could probably get him to agree to postpone things indefinitely."

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Will of the people, and all that. Which most Atlanteans aren't used to...

"I hadn't.. considered… I assume that the observers are to demonstrate that we aren't strong-arming our citizens." I nod. "A curious way of doing things, but I take your point. Have you told him what you're offering us?"

"No. I'd rather that he didn't need to find out. But feel free to inform him if he threatens to invade."

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Giving them a big stick to lean on while they speak softly. Clever.

"Can your LEGION fight in the ocean?"

"The guns we use? We don't really need to."

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Also, I bet a few Lanterns would be deployed. It could serve as a joint training exercise. Hopefully they can do it without an orbital bombardment or similar... People might take offence at that.

And Ganurath called it: Atlantean politics. I bet the plot will be split between the Tilletit incident and the referendum... With OL bouncing back and forth between them, maybe?

...Atlantis is going to be meaningfully effected.

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Little uncertain whether 'affected' or 'effected' is appropriate here. Up to you, Mr Zoat.

 

[A_Bibliophage]

I mean, he did interrogate them. He asked them why, and they said for their god.

I mean, he could see that they believed it.

It just didn't change his mind about empowering one of their victims and watching her eviscerate them.

I mean, even if he had known about the eyeball god-thing, he probably wouldve done the same thing.

 

[Darko]

Cyprian was Clea's nephew and helped her rule.

Clea died in the paragon timeline and now Cyprian is in charge, while her renegade counterpart got Awakened by renegade and may rule forever if she wants to.

Even if the priests mentioned the divine covenant angle there is a chance OL may not believe them and he may think they are just mutilating people to an entity that doesn't exist.

The fact they lack a magic tradition can also mean that OL didn't consider the fact a magic entity can form on that world.

Just because this is a universe where magic and gods exist it doesn't mean that every single thing people believe in is true.

 

[Cuchulin]

"Thousands of eyeballs floated into the sky, came together in blobs and started accusing the locals of 'breaking the covenant'."

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I take it Blind Io is objecting to having his clergy slaughtered?

 

[Mr Zoat]

*and appear a

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think it should be:
'this, Dox' instead of 'this Dox'
'in the galaxy' not 'is the galaxy'

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Thank you, corrected.

In that case I expect to see some side conversation at some point in Renegade's story where he casually mentions stabbing the eyeball god while on a field trip with the kiddos.

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The Renegade hasn't ever been there and if he knows the place exists it's as a line of text on a star chart.

Not this Nemo?

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No.

Little uncertain whether 'affected' or 'effected' is appropriate here. Up to you, Mr Zoat.

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I don't zogging know. What's the difference?

 

[Sockmonkey]

So why does their god want a bunch of eyeballs?

That scene change was abrupt. Thought I'd missed a chapter at first.
Install narrative inertial dampers before pulling moves like that.

 

[Queshire]

I don't zogging know. What's the difference?

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Things have an effect, but things are affected.

Edit: I've mentally said those too many times and now they aren't words for me. Q_Q

 

[Grimnar]

Hmm, I had a feeling this would come up again. It was mentioned at least twice that he planned on killing those gods if they ever showed up again.

 

[Darko]

So why does their god want a bunch of eyeballs?

That scene change was abrupt. Thought I'd missed a chapter at first.
Install narrative inertial dampers before pulling moves like that.

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Either he just wants them to show that they are submitting to him and his ways by mutilating members of their society.

On another more worrying note there is the possibility that the eyeball thing may not just be some kind of fetish this thing has, but he may actually need them to give him the eyeballs.

Like say for example he is magically empowered by them cutting out the eyeballs of the womenfolk so that he can fight something much worse, bu if that is the case then OL will probably also kill that thing, assuming it is hostile to the population and not just to the eyeball god.

 

[Queshire]

Something to keep in mind, if this is an actual Cthulu style being, going by canon precedence the Orange Light wouldn't work on it.

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An actual Cthulu style being wouldn't care. One of the whole points of the Cthulu mythos is to basically go, "What, you think humans are actually worth anything? Ha! Get over yourself."

I mean, if there was a bunch of ants worshipping a human, well, the human probably wouldn't notice first off and thus wouldn't notice if the ants broke some agreement.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Things have an effect, but things are affected.

Edit: I've mentally said those too many times and now they aren't words for me. Q_Q

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I'll change it then, thank you.

 

[WhiteNoise]

Things have an effect, but things are affected.

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The thrill of seeing my plans effected prevents me from maintaining a flat affect.

 

[The Vale]

Low Politics

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That's a very jarring shift. Feels like there is a missing snippet for the lead in..

 

[Ngamer11]

"Not much. And to be honest, it's not my problem."

"This agreement will make it your problem."

"No, it won't. I don't care who was right or wrong… Does this go back to Princess Diana's fight with Queen Clea?"

"No, before that."

I think for a moment, then shrug. "I still don't care. Your city has been disconnected for long enough that hardly anyone in Atlantis is going to be meaningfully affected. If the royal family had decades to fix the problem and didn't, then they don't have any cause for complaint. I would however respectfully suggest that it might be politically advantageous to hold a ballot on the subject, but otherwise it isn't my concern."

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I love how Paul just says it's not his problem. He said it before with Aqualad, and he is sticking with it.

I hope the Tillettit thing is just handled offscreen so that we can see how little of a threat the thing was. I also bet that this might make the locals like/revere Paul a little more if he can lead a team to kill what might be their God or Devil. Probably won't make the people from that planet stop calling him "Lord". The Atlantean thing however might make things difficult with his Atlantean friends, assuming he doesn't find a solution that everyone can find tolerable.

 

[Idkusername]

...You're not going to greediport them, are you? Because Hinon noted that was a bad idea...

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Can you give me a link, please? I seem to remember she okayed it for use.

 

[Vaermina]

An actual Cthulu style being wouldn't care. One of the whole points of the Cthulu mythos is to basically go, "What, you think humans are actually worth anything? Ha! Get over yourself."

I mean, if there was a bunch of ants worshipping a human, well, the human probably wouldn't notice first off and thus wouldn't notice if the ants broke some agreement.

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I am talking about the Cthulu style beings in DC comics.

 

[Ganurath]

And SirKaid called it: Atlantean politics.

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Wait, did my guess get ninja'd?

 

[Queshire]

I am talking about the Cthulu style beings in DC comics.

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Gee, then at least have the decency to get the terminology right. They're Icthultu style beings.

Naturally, since Cthulu was never copyrighted and yet they went with that instead then the distinction is important.

 

[Greydragon]

Interesting, I wonder if this is a chicken and egg type situation? The priesthood justifies mutilating their females by the decree of this god-like being, or that the long term belief of the ordinary people in there being a reason for the mutilation created their demon-god? Because the latter? That's all the reason necessary to end the tradition violently.

 

[King of Frost]

Something that still bothers me about how OL handled that situation with the eyeball cutters. He has recruited and allied himself with people who are far, far worse than any individual priest from that religion, except for maybe some of the people in the higher echelons of the religion. And yet he helped wholesale slaughter them down to even the lowliest acolyte.

Don't get me wrong, that practice needed to fucking stop, the vast majority of the priests probably deserved to be slaughtered, and I can see OL stopping it even if he wasn't getting anything out of it, but it really does seem like he went with the more extreme and violent way so he could get more recruits.

It's specifically the "down to the lowliest acolyte" or however it was described before. Every single member, no matter how new or whether they were pushed into it by family or some other kind of factor even if they hadn't done anything yet, deserved to be slaughtered? OL has aided and allied himself with people who have, individually, done far, far worse things than any one priest could have possible done. Not worse than the religion as a whole, and obviously the religion needed to fucking be stomped out, but this still feels weird to me in how it was handled.

We weren't given enough information on the species and the religion for me to be comfortable saying that wholesale slaughter was warranted. It may very well have been warranted, but it just seems weird based on OL's usual way of doing things.