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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Paul is a major demigod of desire though - due to having been possessed by what amounts to a major god of greed - gods are essentially elementals according to word of Zoat. And considering that when he died, he was strong enough to have a spirit form that he could move freely in, he is essentially at least a minor god of desire by this point. He's proven he doesn't need a body. He's essentially space Hercules. His feats are already fairly comparable.
 
Chaoswind said:
Zatanna has A LOT less baggage in comparison (and she still has plenty), its why the argument that the relationship with Cheshire is "healthy" is so laughable, because it sure as hell isn't.
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I tend to think that the issue with Jade was in part because we already kind of saw that relationship with Grayven, so it wasn't really treading any new interesting ground for some readers. (This might just be a personal thing, but I also saw Paul/Jade as having less chemistry than Grayven/Jade, causing the Paragon version to suffer by the comparison.)

But... more to the Zatanna thing, I think Paul actually has a point, albeit less of one than he thinks.

Age and how that plays into acceptable relationships gets a little fuzzy when you start throwing powers/magic/shapechanging/immortality into the mix, but I'd tend to think that maturity and how much actual life you've had to deal with starts becoming more important than the number of years.

Paul comes across to me as someone in his early 20s. He's gone through adolescence into adulthood, and has learned how to live on his own with a degree of independence, but doesn't come across to me as someone who's mastered adulting and doesn't have any experience in longterm romantic relationships or being head of a family, so... early 20s-ish. Past college freshman level, but still young adult.

For all he might have 30 birthdays under his belt, I think he'd be a better match for a college student than he would with someone like a Paula Crock or Selina Kyle, someone who's lived all of those years to their fullest, and seen and been through a lot more shit than he has, where he'd probably struggle not to come off like a callow kid.

It wouldn't really trip my skeeviness sensor for him to be dating someone at the upper edge of high school who's been through more than the usual allotment of shit... or at least, any more than I'd be squicked by any other "20-year-old college student dating 17-year high school junior" relationship.

But... I don't really see Zatanna in that category. Up until recently, she's been a normal teenaged girl living with her overprotective single father. She kind of had to live on her own after Zatara was taken by Nabu... in the sense that she had to live by herself in a fully-stocked mansion because she didn't want to go live with her multi-billionaire family friend. It's not exactly living on the streets, or something I'd character as giving her experience in independent and managing her own life.

I'd probably give her a few effective years for her maturity level, but not enough to put her out of 'teenager' maturity level and into the 'young adult' level where Paul is right now, and until she moves up a level, I think he's probably right about a relationship between them being problematic.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Ah, but QQ has entirely different red lines. Here, we can discuss as much under aged sex as we like, assign people whatever sex we want and spoil all of the Star Wars films. We just can't talk about modern politics in anything other than an utterly cursory way. It's not objectively better, but it a different sort of nonsense.
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And to build on this, look at it this way: we aren't nervously sitting around in a kettle of boiling extremism anymore! I mean, speaking personally, since we've moved here it's been like a weight's been lifted off my shoulders; I don't worry that every other post is going to get me, or half of the other people in the thread, banned.

No politics is a little restrictive, but as a rule it encourages a lot less craziness than SV created. And the moderators are a lot more reasonable about it too; they enforce it because after not having that rule for a while, they concluded it's a unfortunate, but necessary restriction for civil discussion. SV though... for them it's personal; they have conviction. And that is not how you get reasonable and fair moderation.
 
Valint said:
I tend to think that the issue with Jade was in part because we already kind of saw that relationship with Grayven, so it wasn't really treading any new interesting ground for some readers. (This might just be a personal thing, but I also saw Paul/Jade as having less chemistry than Grayven/Jade, causing the Paragon version to suffer by the comparison.)

But... more to the Zatanna thing, I think Paul actually has a point, albeit less of one than he thinks.

Age and how that plays into acceptable relationships gets a little fuzzy when you start throwing powers/magic/shapechanging/immortality into the mix, but I'd tend to think that maturity and how much actual life you've had to deal with starts becoming more important than the number of years.

Paul comes across to me as someone in his early 20s. He's gone through adolescence into adulthood, and has learned how to live on his own with a degree of independence, but doesn't come across to me as someone who's mastered adulting and doesn't have any experience in longterm romantic relationships or being head of a family, so... early 20s-ish. Past college freshman level, but still young adult.

For all he might have 30 birthdays under his belt, I think he'd be a better match for a college student than he would with someone like a Paula Crock or Selina Kyle, someone who's lived all of those years to their fullest, and seen and been through a lot more shit than he has, where he'd probably struggle not to come off like a callow kid.

It wouldn't really trip my skeeviness sensor for him to be dating someone at the upper edge of high school who's been through more than the usual allotment of shit... or at least, any more than I'd be squicked by any other "20-year-old college student dating 17-year high school junior" relationship.

But... I don't really see Zatanna in that category. Up until recently, she's been a normal teenaged girl living with her overprotective single father. She kind of had to live on her own after Zatara was taken by Nabu... in the sense that she had to live by herself in a fully-stocked mansion because she didn't want to go live with her multi-billionaire family friend. It's not exactly living on the streets, or something I'd character as giving her experience in independent and managing her own life.

I'd probably give her a few effective years for her maturity level, but not enough to put her out of 'teenager' maturity level and into the 'young adult' level where Paul is right now, and until she moves up a level, I think he's probably right about a relationship between them being problematic.
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Questionable how many superheroes are actually that mature in some interpretations, but yeah... the whole personality dynamic is really skewed no matter who he chooses. Paul seems a bit like a chirpy teenager/ college student with superpowers - rather than the sort who's ever really had to deal with life problems. It fits him though. Probably the only way to write a hero who's not jaded. He's not tired of all the horrible things that go on. He has no real reason to fight/ be a super, no one's forcing him. He's doing this because he seeks thrills. Catwoman/ Jade seem to do it because it's a job. They have a specific skill set, a lack of an excessive moral compass, and need money. If they had it, they would/ do retire from villainy / action. Paul's mind really sounds a lot like a college student's mentality to me.
 
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Chaoswind said:
Yes, Paul picked Cheshire because she suits more of his kinks. I am mostly just arguing that all Paul hangups about Zatanna are little more than the smokescreen of an hypocrite, Zatanna isn't an athletic hot Asian woman, she is an athletic hot American Italian chick ergo Paul doesn't want to have a relationship with her. Its that simple.
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You do realize that not everyone is attracted to 14 year olds, yes? That's how old Zatanna is at the moment. She is very obviously not an adult whereas Jade is.
 
Gforce1000 said:
You do realize that not everyone is attracted to 14 year olds, yes? That's how old Zatanna is at the moment. She is very obviously not an adult whereas Jade is.
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She is fifteen, she was 14 at the start of the fic. Had her first birthday and her second birthday is in a couple of months, so she is going to be 16. By Paul lies he is just three years and a half older than her, so from her point of view there is nothing unreasonable about her crush.
 
Chaoswind said:
She is fifteen, she was 14 at the start of the fic. Had her first birthday and her second birthday is in a couple of months, so she is going to be 16. By Paul lies he is just three years and a half older than her, so from her point of view there is nothing unreasonable about her crush.
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Paul had a "birthday" since she turned fifteen, I think, so four years older,and 16-20 is a big enough age gap she should realize he's uncomfortable, especially after New Years when he said "I'm uncomfortable with this relationship".

plus, actual pedophilia, she's still 15
 
Sceptic said:
Post pubescent, so not actual paedophilia. Legally verboten? Yes. Insufficiently mature for a real relationship? Most likely. But actual paedophilia? Not so much.
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I mean that depends on whose definition you're using. The legal definition is, in fact, a definition, so that could be considered "actual".
 
Mquz said:
Questionable how many superheroes are actually that mature in some interpretations, but yeah... the whole personality dynamic is really skewed no matter who he chooses. Paul seems a bit like a chirpy teenager/ college student with superpowers - rather than the sort who's ever really had to deal with life problems. It fits him though. Probably the only way to write a hero who's not jaded. He's not tired of all the horrible things that go on. He has no real reason to fight/ be a super, no one's forcing him. He's doing this because he seeks thrills.
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I thought I'd been clear that he was doing it as an uplift project which occasionally required him to punch face. I don't think I ever wrote anything about him enjoying fighting. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's described that part as frustrating and unproductive.
Catwoman/ Jade seem to do it because it's a job. They have a specific skill set, a lack of an excessive moral compass, and need money. If they had it, they would/ do retire from villainy / action. Paul's mind really sounds a lot like a college student's mentality to me.
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Catwoman's motives aren't quite that simple. Unfortunately, that will only be explored in the NSFW thread.

Jade's motives certainly aren't, or she would never have joined the Darkstars.
 
Sceptic said:
Post pubescent, so not actual paedophilia. Legally verboten? Yes. Insufficiently mature for a real relationship? Most likely. But actual paedophilia? Not so much.
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Oh god do you want me to break out the copypasta on this shit? Cause like, my god.

You know what, it's below:

Here's the thing. You said ephebophilia is pedophilia.
Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that.
As someone who is a diddler who studies children, I am telling you, specifically, in diddling, no one calls ephebophilia pedophilia. If you want to be "specific" like you said, then you shouldn't either. They're not the same thing.
If you're saying "pedophile family" you're referring to the paraphilia grouping of chronophilia, which includes things from nepiophibilia to hebepohilia to gerontophilia.
So your reasoning for calling ephebophilia pedophilia is because random people "call the ephebopophile ones pedophiles?" Let's get teleiophiles and mesophiles in there, then, too. Also, calling someone a human or an ape? It's not one or the other, that's not how taxonomy works. They're both. An ephebophile is an ephebophile and a member of the chronophilia classification. But that's not what you said. You said ephebophilia is pedophilia, which is not true unless you're okay with calling all members of the chronophilia class ephebophiles, which means you'd call nepiophiles, teliophiles, and other sexual attractions pedophilia, too. Which you said you don't.
It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
 
Mr Zoat said:
I thought I'd been clear that he was doing it as an uplift project which occasionally required him to punch face. I don't think I ever wrote anything about him enjoying fighting. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's described that part as frustrating and unproductive.
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Not fighting, no, but risk taking? He's certainly seemed to show his enjoyment of that. Uplift is a goal, and no one else seems to be doing it, but at least part of it seems like he actually enjoys the danger / excitement / seeing the world. He's willing to risk everything for his goal. Probably a good thing though.

Hm... how else to put the difference in mentality- probably more accurate - he has the personality of a good manager, rather than a good office worker. He does a little of everything. However, he likes to micromanage. He likes to find a thing and randomly get involved. It's what leads to him fighting. Jade and Catwoman seem kind of used to their jobs - they might believe in what they're doing, and they see why it's important - but they seem like they're scientists or office workers, in the mundanity with which they treat their jobs. To them, and most superheroes, it kind of seems like it's a job - they do one important thing, and they do it well. They're office workers with different skill sets. In your words, they're still passive.

Paul, however, is doing a little of everything, to the point where he seems stretched too thin. He starts something, and then he forgets about it a month on. He has a goal, and he's working towards it, but he's at the stage of life where he hasn't settled in yet. Though, to be fair - that's kind of his goal. To be proactive. It also makes for a better story. It just seems like a really different mindset. Zatanna has been shown to sort of share this, which is why people seem to like the start of the pairing, if Zatanna was a little more mature. They're both people trying to find their way in the world. Zatanna seems to be constantly trying to change herself - though maybe not for good reason, if it's only to seduce Paul. Jade and Catwoman - they're not punch-clock villains (obviously), but they're office-worker villains (if that's a thing). They do preety much one thing, and they do it well, but they're not apparently trying to move outside that narrow job line. They don't for example, donate their stolen proceeds to charity (at least not as it appears), or run one themselves. They don't seem like they work for the common good. They seem to know themselves, they know what they're doing with their lives. And they probably shouldn't be trying to do what Paul does. Their roles are valuable. They're just passive instead of active - Jade works for the league of assassins, so she's essentially a lethal office drone, and Catwoman doesn't go beyond being in charge of a small illegal enterprise (if that). If they had orange rings and comic book knowledge can you honestly say they'd have done everything Paul has done for his uplift project? I was under the impression that Jade would still be an assassin, and Catwoman would still be a burglar, even with more powers. They're not the sort of people who uplift others. It's what separates villains from good guys. Though Jade has been showing signs of changing, what with joining the Darkstars. And there's obviously not much activity she could have done before, so my point might be irrelevant. It might just come down eventually to what power sets everyone has, and how involved with uplift they can really get.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
I thought I'd been clear that he was doing it as an uplift project which occasionally required him to punch face. I don't think I ever wrote anything about him enjoying fighting. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's described that part as frustrating and unproductive.
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It amuses me greatly that he thinks what he's been doing in any qualifies as an actual uplift project.
 
Vaermina said:
It amuses me greatly that he thinks what he's been doing in any qualifies as an actual uplift project.
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Pff, yeah. I mean, getting super-scientists funding before they go insane, introducing magic into the mainstream, encouraging the sharing of potentially game-changing abilities like the Danner formula? He's basically just sitting at home and masturbating like everyone else on this site.
 
It's still an uplift, he's just not skipping straight to the end and dumping hypertech in Humanity's collective lap. His method of advancing things is more like leaving Humanity a trail of breadcrumbs to follow. Or maybe a cheat sheet.

Or at least that's how I've mostly understood things.
 
Ardy said:
Pff, yeah. I mean, getting super-scientists funding before they go insane, introducing magic into the mainstream, encouraging the sharing of potentially game-changing abilities like the Danner formula? He's basically just sitting at home and masturbating like everyone else on this site.
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Except he's not really doing the first, the second is worthless because Mr Zoat decided magic wouldn't really work off Earth, and the third he hasn't even begun pushing for FDA testing on. (Or better yet just push to have a legal exception made)

Fact is Grayven has done more to uplift Humanity then Paul has done.

And all Grayven really did was track down cosmic converter technology. Which there's still no good reason for Paul not doing himself.
 
Vaermina said:
Except he's not really doing the first, the second is worthless because Mr Zoat decided magic wouldn't really work off Earth, and the third he hasn't even begun pushing for FDA testing on. (Or better yet just push to have a legal exception made)

Fact is Grayven has done more to uplift Humanity then Paul has done.

And all Grayven really did was track down cosmic converter technology. Which there's still no good reason for Paul not doing himself.
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Just because magic only works on certain planets doesn't make it worthless. You've seen some of the shenanigans people have pulled with it. It lets you do things that even advanced tech can't do. Plus it's a major cheat in the same way having Nth metal let's Thanagar do stuff they shouldn't be able to at their tech level.
 
Hoard (part 9)
  • Threadmarks
    • 11th January
    17:22 GMT +2

    The police car pulls up in front of what looks like a Soviet-era block of flats, and Zatanna and I get out. The building is a little showier than its neighbours, but possessed of the standard issue smears of rust and lichen down the concrete exterior. The same eroded paint job.

    I wonder if I could trade her expertise for an exterior tune-u-? No, too late, orange light is already running through the ground and up the walls, purging lichen and moss and removing bird droppings, making minor repairs and redoing the paintwork. Fortunately it's only working on the exterior, so there shouldn't be any repetition of the Gotham Police headquarters incident.

    "I phoned ahead. This way."

    Inspector Gherea is either ignoring the faint orange light, or he's blaming his contact. Zatanna on the other hand is regarding me with a degree of amusement.

    "So enlightenment doesn't cure anal-retentiveness?"

    "No, not even slightly." This time she doesn't take my arm, preferring to have both hands available to grip her staff. I glow briefly as I shift to a slightly heavier armour and check my spell eater. "But it does stop me being conflicted about it."

    We follow the Inspector up to the front door, where rather than buzzing on the intercom he dials a number on his mobile.

    "Anything thaumically interesting?"

    She smiles at me as her eyes flash again. "One or two things. Nothing very powerful."

    The Inspector pushes open the door, and we proceed inside. It's… Tidy? The paint on the walls is in good repair and the floor has been mopped recently. The Inspector's eyes go to the stairwell, but with a small shake of his head he leads us over to the lifts. He reaches out to press the 'Call Lift' button, but the door opens before his hand reaches it.

    "Pressure panels under the floor, or was someone watching the security cameras?"

    "No, basic synchronicity magic. John showed me how it works. It's an easy and subtle way of making things happen the way you want them to."

    The Inspector steps inside, and I hold out my hand to indicate that Zatanna can get inside first. Not only is it polite, but she's better able than me to detect and identify magic. She enters without incident, and I step in after her.

    "Inspector, the first time you came here-" The doors close and the lift begins its ascent. "-did the lights go out when you were part way up?"

    "Yes. It was… Unsettling."

    "And there were a bunch of weird sounds just loud enough to hear, and you felt something on the back of your neck?"

    He looks a little taken aback by her grin. "Yes. How did you know?"

    "Basic street magician intimidation. Paul, could you check the wiring?"

    Ring? Heh.

    "Simple ink diagram."

    Zatanna nods while Inspector Gherea just looks puzzled. "I don't understand."

    "When you're dealing with people who don't know anything about magic, you can get a psychological advantage by making yourself seem more powerful than you are. She put a small spell on the wiring of the light so that she could disrupt it. And the rest probably just came from magnifying your own fears, maybe with a small spell to make it seem more real than it actually was."

    "So I wasn't in danger?"

    "John said that most people who set things like this up usually have someone with a gun standing outside the elevator. If whoever was in charge wanted to kill you, they wouldn't need to do it with magic."

    "I see." He pulls himself slightly more upright. "I will remember that."

    "Or vampires."

    "Vampires are not especially common in Romania. The purges were quite thorough. And I have my cross."

    "Can you get it out of your shirt faster than a vampire could punch you?" He promptly takes his crucifix out and lets it hang down his chest. "Or shoot you; vampires can use guns."

    "I do not think that she means to attack us. But I will be a little more confident-" The lift stops and the doors open. "-in future."

    He steps out, fixing the man who was waiting for the lift with a gaze so piercing and confrontational that he takes a step backwards and spreads his hands in surrender. The Inspector continues to glare at him for a moment, then stalks away down the corridor, Zatanna and I following on behind him. Ring? No, the man isn't armed, and isn't anything to do with the woman we're here to see. Though he does take the opportunity to stare at the two superheroes as we go. Wonder if he actually recognises us?

    The Inspector walks up to a heavily reinforced door, quite obviously different in style from the others we've walked past. Scan, and, yes, the wall has been reinforced too. There's a small bundle of dead flowers pushed through a wrought iron ring at head height, and the mechanism… Yes, another minor bond to allow the owner to operate it without a key. While the Inspector buzzes for entrance I take out my rune stone. A minor magic presence at most. Nothing like what someone in Doctor Mist's league would use, but street magicians keep their ears to the ground. I idly turn, looking out of a nearby external wind…

    Ring, what floor are we on?

    The top floor, floor fourteen.

    Hah! Someone's using the Ward of Stolen Light. Just trying to unsettle people, or is that a serious attempt to disguise her precise location? If that door was anything to go by she doesn't have the power for teleportation…

    There's a quiet clank, then the door swings outwards on very strong-looking hinges. No secondary door inside, but the exterior door is designed to prevent hostile entry. A safety measure rather than a trap.

    "Are you going to stand there all day?"

    Inspector Gherea strides in, making a point of showing that he isn't cowed. This time. Zatanna steps through primly and as I follow I shake my head.

    "No 'enter freely of your own will'?"

    The woman sitting on the settee looks at me with disdain. "I am a witch, not a vampire."

    And scan. Ah, she's telling the truth. How novel.

    The woman herself is quite striking, in an artificial sort of way. A pale complexion rendered paler by an excess of makeup, black lipstick, heavy mascara and jet black hair… Yes, dyed. She's wearing leather trousers, topped by a loose white blouse and a black leather bodice thing. All looks a bit Goth, really, but given our location I suppose it might be authentic. Behind her, a tall window gives a lovely view of… Madrid, I think.

    Zatanna walks towards her. "Zatanna Zatara."

    "Dala Vadim. You have questions for me?"

    Zatanna sits down opposite, leaving the Staff of Love to float upright beside her. "Something stole some silverware from the Museum of Art Collections. I don't think it was human, but I don't know enough about local fae creatures to know what it was. I was hoping that you could help me."

    Ms Vadim shrugs. "Gnomes sometimes steal small items. But they are opportunists, not good at sneaking into places. I would guess a bound imp-."

    Zatanns shakes her head. "It wasn't a demon."

    "A ghost, perhaps? The bound spirit of some thief?"

    Zatanna frowns. "It could be. But why would a ghost need to walk on-?"

    The window explodes inwards!
     
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    • Mr Zoat said:
    I wonder if I could trade her expertise for a exterior tune-u-?
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    I wonder if I could trade her expertise for an exterior tune-u-?

    ...purging lichen and mostt and removing bird droppings...
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    ...purging lichen and moss and removing bird droppings...

    ...shouldn't be any repetition of Gotham Police headquarters incident.
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    ...shouldn't be any repetition of the Gotham Police headquarters incident.
    (reads better. Up to you, after all)

    ...and the floor has been moped recently.
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    ...and the floor has been mopped recently.

    If that door was anything to go be she doesn't have the power for teleportation…
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    If that door was anything to go by she doesn't have the power for teleportation…

    The woman sitting on the settee looks at me with distain. "I am a witch, not a vampire."
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    The woman sitting on the settee looks at me with disdain. "I am a witch, not a vampire."

    And it looks like someone doesn't want them talking to the lady. This is either linked to a dragon or the Leprechauns, calling it now.
     
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