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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Rafin said:
Mr Zoat Where did this WHF Paul learn about the ability of Orange rings to rewrite desires? Or see desires on request? And why didn't main story Paul use it earlier in his career?
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I think ordinary Paul also knew about these features, or he could have just asked his rings AI, assuming this one has an AU.

Paul did use the emotion viewer early in his career, but not the rewrite aspect since I think he found it morally repugnant at the time.

Fellow said:
This feels wrong. Oh so very wrong. I mean you gave them a choice at least, a thin semblance of a choice, but a choice nonetheless. And they're dark elves too so, ya know, maximum evil people. Am I being weird? Is the rewriting desire thing wrong if used to make someone "good"? I mean if you try to rehabilitate them the normal way the end result would be the same. You're just expediting the process. Is the fact that I feel uneasy irrational?
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I think it's a whole lot easier to not feel wrong when the one having their personality rewritten is essentially a monster that loves torturing people.

If the one you alter is however good then it is very easy to feel uneasy about the person being rewritten, like with Tangseid.

BlueMangoAdea said:
I think Warhammer!OL is talking about assimilation, not the tattoo thing?
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This version didn't assimilate them, but just altered their desires.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Yeah, I don't see a fresh Paul taking that approach.
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Renegade assimilated a guy in one of his first missions, so it isn't exactly all that difficult to imagine that like paragon and renegade this version may have had a different personality than the main SI.

Chojin Patriarch said:
o_O Still impressed he's thought of doing that. How did he know he could?
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Either the rings AI told him, assuming the ring has one, and I think that the other SI's may have also known about that particular option, or at least speculated.

In the Common Sense chapter in Byalia that version said that he may be able to alter someones desires.

Mr Zoat said:
"I suspect that I can permanently alter someone's desires with this ring,
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Chojin Patriarch said:
Seriously, is he in, like, a 'New Game Plus' or something? This is at least medium-tier skill. And I doubt one encounter against Dark Elves would give that much XP...
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This one could be a prodigy in using his ring, or at least may somehow get an instinctual awareness on how to do it through the Warp, without being corrupted.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Another cold open, eh? It's starting to look like the Bond franchise in here. Not complaining, because these glimpses of alternate Pauls are good fun. Still feels odd that he should go straight for the desire-editing, though...
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Again, he could have a different personality compared to the main SI, and these guys don't leave much room for things that aren't killing them on the spot to spot to stop them.
 
thebishop8 said:
It looks like another apostrophe is needed after "Warhammer" or around there.
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Darko said:
'hits him'
'find out'
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Thank you, corrected.
Zoat is this episode going to be a primarily renegade or paragon one?
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The main SI.
Darko said:
'options'
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Thank you, corrected.
Rafin said:
Mr Zoat Where did this WHF Paul learn about the ability of Orange rings to rewrite desires? Or see desires on request? And why didn't main story Paul use it earlier in his career?
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In the fight immediately preceding this, though he doesn't know the exact limitations. It's more 'if the alternative is killing them anyway...'
Chojin Patriarch said:
I doubt it's Albion, wrong sort of environment - he'd probably recognise the magical not-England of the old World.
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Albion is maybe pre-Roman England. The environment makes it basically impossible to build anything.
Malal, in brief, for those wondering. Short version: Chaos God of (for want of a better term) Atheism and self-destructive behaviour. Hates the other Gods, wants them to go away. He's not used today mostly because of legal reasons.
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Eat the lawyers first!
Seriously, is he in, like, a 'New Game Plus' or something? This is at least medium-tier skill. And I doubt one encounter against Dark Elves would give that much XP...
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Getting it right is medium-tier.
Ah, Dark Elves... Assholes. No coincidence they rule the Old World equivalent to North America.
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We're not bitter.
I would sooner die than be tainted...
Do your best, daemon.
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Thank you, corrected.
 
Korfayron said:
You have no idea how much I want more of warhammer lantern.
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Since Mr Zoat is already going to be working on With This Ring for years to come, maybe a few good Fanfic writers who are interested can contact him to write down the adventures of these other versions of the SI as spinoffs? That way, we can have the original, and all these alternates that people want to see. They just have to make sure that they write is in line with what Mr Zoat has already written about them or have in mind for them.

Mr Zoat, would that work?
 
Chojin Patriarch said:
The question is, Bretonnian or Sigmarite? Gods only know what the glowing eyes signify.


A man with a sword... Versus a power ring. Unless he's mainlining a God's power, that's unlikely to be a challenge.
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The glowing eyes makes me think Grail knight or lost son if paul is very unlucky.

Don't Sigmarite ones usually use hammers?
 
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Fellow said:
This feels wrong. Oh so very wrong. I mean you gave them a choice at least, a thin semblance of a choice, but a choice nonetheless. And they're dark elves too so, ya know, maximum evil people. Am I being weird? Is the rewriting desire thing wrong if used to make someone "good"? I mean if you try to rehabilitate them the normal way the end result would be the same. You're just expediting the process. Is the fact that I feel uneasy irrational?
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Death as an alternative is underrated. As always, consent justifies everything. I see no moral problem here. If this makes you feel uneasy, conceptualize the moral logic until the feeling stops.

Feelings aren't truth, they're an approximation of truth created by nature. You are allowed to disagree.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
The glowing eyes makes me think Grail knight or lost son if paul is very unlucky.
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It's a questing knight.

Mr Zoat said:
They first met when Mallobaude was a Questing Knight. He was trying to chase down the Dark Elves raiding the coast and came upon the SI having already done so. Seeing unrighteous devilry he challenged the SI, who first tried to talk him down and then defeated him as gently as he could. Their next meeting was some time later, after he completed his Grail Quest and was depressed at finding the whole thing to be a charade. The SI gave him an impassioned lecture on virtue ethics and secular humanism and he grabbed onto it like a drowning man to a lifeline.
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Vaermina said:
Darko said: ↑
Citation for the first one please.​
Mr Zoat said: ↑
No. Basically, the problem came about because what an individual parahuman's ability is is nothing like the limit of what that shard can do. Tattletale has vastly improved intuitive reasoning, but the shard decided that what it was seeing was novel enough that it could justify doing something else. Like when Jack Slash's shard decided on its own initiative to mind control Imp into not killing him despite that not 'officially' being one of his powers. The shard couldn't cope, and the flashback from that knocked Tattletale out.
Also he could have started using such equipment after spending some time in Earth Bet, after figuring out what types of powers exist there.

LP is an enlightened Lantern with extremely advanced equipment.

That's not exactly low tier in any sense of the word, seeing as he's at least on the Triumvirates level, if not higher.

Power rings in the comics have done some extremely powerful things, up to and including destroying planets.​
Except Shards are more advanced then Guardian tech in concerns to their multidimensional abilities and Scion has wavelength canceling which would render Power Rings pretty much useless.
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Wait a sec, what zoat is describing is essentially a second trigger, when a shard bud rejoins the original host (Shards budding is apparently them devoting some processing power to a new task rather than a true creation of a new shard) So Tattletale got a second trigger, with the new ability apparently meant to analyse the lantern technology, but while it is apparently capable of scanning the power ring, it was such a large task that Tattletale got an automatic thinker headache times 10.

Which is *incredibly* worrying, as it means the shards are at least partially successful in scanning the power ring and the actual inner workings of the power rings. And sure, one parahuman with their tiny portion of the cpu isn't going to have much success, but the shard and shard network as a whole is apparently now learning how power rings work. The more interesting the shard network thinks it is, the more processing power the task gets, the faster it goes.
 
Fellow said:
This feels wrong. Oh so very wrong. I mean you gave them a choice at least, a thin semblance of a choice, but a choice nonetheless. And they're dark elves too so, ya know, maximum evil people. Am I being weird? Is the rewriting desire thing wrong if used to make someone "good"? I mean if you try to rehabilitate them the normal way the end result would be the same. You're just expediting the process. Is the fact that I feel uneasy irrational?
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I suppose if you think about it a certain way you're giving them the choice between three methods of capital punishment: Quick death, slow death, and personality death. Think they did something vaguely similar as capital punishment in Babylon 5 to criminals, but they accomplished it by wiping their entire personality and implanting a whole new personality designed for service rather than altering the individual personality traits that OL finds repulsive.

DAT_NOOB said:
Wait, what? the old world doesn't have Bretonnia? I haven't been keeping up to date.
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Right, If I recall correctly Age of Sigmar did away with Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings while giving us Ground Marines and the Great Horned Rat as a chaos god in place of Slaanesh.
 
Fellow said:
This feels wrong. Oh so very wrong. I mean you gave them a choice at least, a thin semblance of a choice, but a choice nonetheless. And they're dark elves too so, ya know, maximum evil people. Am I being weird? Is the rewriting desire thing wrong if used to make someone "good"? I mean if you try to rehabilitate them the normal way the end result would be the same. You're just expediting the process. Is the fact that I feel uneasy irrational?
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If you think about it's far better than merely killing then.

I am speculating here, but could it be that your unease comes from the idea that someone's deepest drives, someones soul if you will, are changeable variables? We have this idea of human spirits being sacred, but to OL they are complex programs that can be altered.
 
iamnuff said:
I don't empathise with monsters.

These aren't cultist children. They're puppets.

All of nilbog's children love him enough to be willing to die for him. That's not natural.
No rebellion? No teenage angst? No dislike for his methods? No diverging opinions at all?
It could be a facet of their youth, I suppose. The eldest of them is four years old.
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IIRC Dot in Ward winds up despising him for lacking ambition, which is why she winds up hooking up with Amy, spends her time encouraging Amy's worst impulses, and then ditches her when Amy decides to give up ruling a world to go get therapy.
 
Fellow said:
This feels wrong. Oh so very wrong. I mean you gave them a choice at least, a thin semblance of a choice, but a choice nonetheless. And they're dark elves too so, ya know, maximum evil people. Am I being weird? Is the rewriting desire thing wrong if used to make someone "good"? I mean if you try to rehabilitate them the normal way the end result would be the same. You're just expediting the process. Is the fact that I feel uneasy irrational?
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Havelock Vetinari said:
You see, I believe in freedom. Not many people do, although they will of course protest otherwise. And no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based.
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Handlewithcare said:
If you think about it's far better than merely killing then.

I am speculating here, but could it be that your unease comes from the idea that someone's deepest drives, someones soul if you will, are changeable variables? We have this idea of human spirits being sacred, but to OL they are complex programs that can be altered.
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It's the thought of someone changing the way you think, not through logic, reason, or impassioned debate, but by brute froce that makes me uneasy. The thought that someone can just change the way you feel because they don't believe it's right, whether or not how you feel actually is right or wrong is very disturbing to me. It gives me 1984 Big Brother vibes.
 
Fellow said:
It's the thought of someone changing the way you think, not through logic, reason, or impassioned debate, but by brute froce that makes me uneasy. The thought that someone can just change the way you feel because they don't believe it's right, whether or not how you feel actually is right or wrong is very disturbing to me. It gives me 1984 Big Brother vibes.
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At least this version isn't as bad as Tangseid.

Now there's someone that can give Big Brother vibes, no questions asked.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
The glowing eyes makes me think Grail knight or lost son if paul is very unlucky.
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Sons of Bretonnia are 6th edition. This is 5th edition. The Lady of the Lake is the Lady of the Lake, not a cross-dressing elf. Bretonnian noblewomen with magic talents generally -if I remember correctly, it's been a while since Warhammer Armies: Bretonnia- study in the Empire, while the men are told to stop being faggots and go and practice their swordsmanship.
Don't Sigmarite ones usually use hammers?
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No. Reiksguard Knights are generally Sigmarite and they use lances and swords.
Ngamer11 said:
Since Mr Zoat is already going to be working on With This Ring for years to come, maybe a few good Fanfic writers who are interested can contact him to write down the adventures of these other versions of the SI as spinoffs? That way, we can have the original, and all these alternates that people want to see. They just have to make sure that they write is in line with what Mr Zoat has already written about them or have in mind for them.

Mr Zoat, would that work?
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People who aren't me might struggle to write me, but I don't have an objection in principle.
 
Information era said:
Wait a sec, what zoat is describing is essentially a second trigger, when a shard bud rejoins the original host (Shards budding is apparently them devoting some processing power to a new task rather than a true creation of a new shard) So Tattletale got a second trigger, with the new ability apparently meant to analyse the lantern technology, but while it is apparently capable of scanning the power ring, it was such a large task that Tattletale got an automatic thinker headache times 10.

Which is *incredibly* worrying, as it means the shards are at least partially successful in scanning the power ring and the actual inner workings of the power rings. And sure, one parahuman with their tiny portion of the cpu isn't going to have much success, but the shard and shard network as a whole is apparently now learning how power rings work. The more interesting the shard network thinks it is, the more processing power the task gets, the faster it goes.
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As I understand it -I've only read Worm by osmosis- to second trigger she'd need to experience the situation of her original trigger again. And doing so would knock out all nearby parahumans. That isn't what happened here.
Fellow said:
'simple' maybe? Or use a comma after simply. Is this one of those times when a semicolon would work?
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Thank you, corrected.
 
Mr Zoat said:
People who aren't me might struggle to write me, but I don't have an objection in principle.
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But... Since it's a fanfiction they could write you however they want. ;)

They could even have you defeated by perfectly normal man who's only power is that he's perfectly normal.
 
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