With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[DrThoth]

Another off-topic question, but does Renegade know about the whole Rimbor Krolotean fiasco that the brainwashed Justice League were sent to create? Seems like it would be worth an interstellar trip to set the record straight and possibly help repairs. The League, at least Batman, should really want to know. I believe Mr Zoat said something about the Guardians not patrolling that part of space, which is very plot-convenient though I guess the same as canon, but I don't really think it just showing up five years later like in canon would make sense given the characters' competence.

Paragon hasn't done much on this front either (onscreen, at least) but his lack of initiative or success is more excusable to me.

Also for a more on-topic query: Earth-16 Diana's divine portfolio is Truth; does Olympia have something similar? I'd assume it would be Deception or something similar.

 

[Jirachi]

Shouldn't Carol be unable to see Paul's emotions due to his tattoos, at least without touching him?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Another off-topic question, but does Renegade know about the whole Rimbor Krolotean fiasco that the brainwashed Justice League were sent to create? Seems like it would be worth an interstellar trip to set the record straight and possibly help repairs. The League, at least Batman, should really want to know. I believe Mr Zoat said something about the Guardians not patrolling that part of space, which is very plot-convenient though I guess the same as canon, but I don't really think it just showing up five years later like in canon would make sense given the characters' competence.

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The Renegade fixed the situation with the League before they could be sent anywhere.

Also for a more on-topic query: Earth-16 Diana's divine portfolio is Truth; does Olympia have something similar? I'd assume it would be Deception or something similar.

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Not precisely. Themyscira -14 has a rather different culture to Themyscira 16.

 

[Coda]

Shouldn't Carol be unable to see Paul's emotions due to his tattoos, at least without touching him?

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I figure the violet light DID touch him, and since he was intentionally lowering his resistances then the (comparatively weak) skin wards wouldn't provide a whole lot of passive defense against something as powerful as Earth 16's Star Sapphire.

 

[Mr Zoat]

4th February
20:11 GMT -5

"You should be sure to temper your expectations. President Wilson has hardened his heart to any Made Men who might seek his pardon."

"We're not looking for pardons for everyone. But… Does that include everyone even slightly associated with the Syndicate, or just Made Men? If… An accountant who worked in an Syndicate-owned firm wanted to hand themselves in, or an engineer who worked on a Syndicate project and didn't commit a crime other than working for the Syndicate?"

"There may be room to negotiate, for those only tangentially involved. But President Wilson has committed himself to the destruction of the Syndicate. And he will not adulterate his ambition. I do not know if he would consider you to be a full member yet, but by staying here and speaking on their behalf you are putting yourself at risk."

I shrug. "We already have the technology to block the planeshift device your Lex Luthor used. I doubt that he's had the time to design a second device that works on a different basis."

"You are not concerned for yourself personally?"

"Not significantly." Hm. "What do you think the chance is of President Wilson removing all special legal measures and restoring habeas corpus?"

"He believes that the extraordinary measures are necessary for destroying the Syndicate and restoring peace to America. Once the Syndicate is destroyed, then the pre-bellum legal mechanisms would be restored."

I can't help but smile. "Did you know that the Syndicate didn't exist until Governor Wilson started targeting metahuman criminal gangs? I mean, the Managers knew each other, but cooperating was only ever on a case by case basis."

"No. And while I don't know whether it's true or not it hardly matters now."

"No? Because it seems to me that Wilson started a war that has made the country much worse off. Every time he escalated they escalated right back. If he'd just not done that, the country's supervillains would still be spending more time fighting each other than fighting anyone else."

"They would still be supervillains."

"Your starter for ten: what's the difference between 'kidnapping' and 'arresting without charge'?"

She narrows her eyes. "Pass."

"If you pay the ransom, the kidnapper lets you go. Wilson gave up the right to say 'the law says so' when he started changing the law to justify what he was doing. Ultraman was satisfied with running crime in Metropolis. Heck, crime went down after he took over all of the city's other gangs, even including his punishment beatings. Then he got threatened by something he couldn't beat on an organisational level. So he upped his organisational game and his brute force game, because the force at President Wilson's disposal was greater than what Ultraman had at his disposal."

"Are you trying to claim that letting the Syndicate off scot-free is the best solution?"

"How familiar are you with the Good Friday Agreement?"

Which exists back on Earth 16, but might well not be a thing here. I really need to get out and update my database.

"It was the peace settlement which brought an end to political violence in Northern Ireland."

"Sort of. Fanatical groups remained active for years afterwards, but the main groups accepted that it was a fair deal and stopped bombing and sniping. Marching season still gets a bit tense. But, part of the result was that hundreds of murderers were released from prison having completed a mere fraction of their sentences. And the vast majority of them didn't re-offend. The British government devolved a lot of authority to the Northern Irish Assembly while the Republicans gave up on trying to unify it with the Republic of Ireland by force. Everyone got a situation they could live with, and if anyone breaks the law now then they're fair game."

"The Crime Syndicate is not a political organisation, Citrine."

Cit-? Okay, not sure what her jewel fixation is about, but at least it's orange.

"Criminal gangs in Northern Ireland did a lot of fund raising. It didn't all go on guns. And they did punishment beatings, too. And while I rather missed the part of history where the British Army decided that treating Ireland like occupied territory rather than part of Britain was sensible, and that brigandage and murder were acceptable forms of policing, I know full well that they happened."

"You think that the Made Men of the Syndicate will become legitimate citizens if the President gives them a… Mulligan?"

"There was crime before supervillains. There would still be crime if they vanished. Even now there's crime, but since it's being committed by the state people are pretending that it isn't crime. But the last reliable statistics I was able to find said that supervillain-led criminal groups are actually slightly less violent than the regular kind. They can just escalate further if pushed. We've seen what happens when the surviving parts of the Syndicate are pushed."

She looks thoughtful for a moment. "The offer President Wilson received last year was genuine."

"Yes. Wait, you thought that it wasn't?"

"The President believed it was an attempt at misdirection. I had no opinion."

"Did he?"

"Yes."

"Because… People sometimes say that they want peace, when what they actually mean is 'victory'. Peace on their terms only. For example, take a look at how many Nobel Peace Prizes have been awarded in the Middle East. And compare it to how much peace has actually happened. People actually want peace when they're prepared to give up things they don't want to give up in order to achieve it."

"And what is the Syndicate prepared to give up?"

"All of their remaining strategic weapons. At least, those that aren't built into Made Men. Certain types of crime, so long as they are allowed to move into legitimate areas of commerce to offset the financial loss. Part of the Syndicate's combat strength can be… Sent into exile."

"Exile? Where?"

"Pick a failed state, or one run by criminal gangs already, or one where the government might appreciate metahuman muscle in order to solidify its hold on power. Creating a private military company out of the Syndicate's hard cases well outside President Wilson's area of concern. They won't complain too much about the work, and they won't be an immediate threat to America. Plus, if they die in combat, he doesn't have to worry about them at all."

"Unless they seize a country and begin rebuilding there."

"If they take over a country, that's even better. Firstly, there's less reason for them to come back to a place where there's a firing squad waiting for them. Secondly, running a country is actually really hard and takes a lot of time and intelligence, which is time and intelligence that isn't being spent on attacking American concerns." I shake my head at the obvious sub-par decision making. "Let me tell you: if I'd been running the Syndicate a couple of years ago, they'd have had a very different focus. So many ways they could make a profit-."

Oh goodness me. That's how I get them on-side. Evil Alan can give me their personnel files and I can work out how they can make money legallyish. And it won't go like it did with our Lex because they'll think I'm one of them and they're actively looking for better options.

"So that's my opening offer. Nothing is nonnegotiable, and the Syndicate does appreciate that while everyone would lose in the event of a direct confrontation they'd lose by most. I'm happy to meet with representatives of the President, or of anyone else if he doesn't want to be directly connected to what's going on."

"I can request an audience with the President and relay that."

"Not-. Lex Luthor will probably be President this time next year. You'll need to make sure you tell him as well, because he's going to have to live with it. And if the Quizmaster is as intelligent as his alter ego back on my home parallel, you should tell him so that he can make sure I'm not pulling something."

She nods slowly. "I will agree to that."

"Thank you. If you'll excuse me, I'll go and talk to Power Ring about letting you out."

 

[BR549]

"Let me tell you: if I'd been running the Syndicate a couple of years ago, they'd have had a very different focus. So many ways they could make a profit-."

Oh goodness me. That's how I get them on-side. Evil Alan can give me their personnel files and I can work out how they can make money legallyish. And it won't go like it did with our Lex because they'll think I'm one of them and they're actively looking for better options.

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Well you know what they say...

 

[liger0]

It took me a little bit to realize that Quizmaster was Riddler's counterpart. I wasn't entirely sure and had to wind up looking it up.

 

[Ganurath]

In my mind, the color I associate with Citrine is yellow.

 

[Vrenze]

It took me a little bit to realize that Quizmaster was Riddler's counterpart. I wasn't entirely sure and had to wind up looking it up.

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Isn't there are an actual low tier villain named quiz-something?

 

[Vaermina]

I shrug. "We already have the technology to block the planeshift device your Lex Luthor used. I doubt that he's had the time to design a second device that works on a different basis."

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This version of Lex Luthor could quite literally do that while on the toilet...

And that's not even counting how given this is a Mirror of the JLAU Earth that diverged between Justice League and Justice League unlimited he would have a good version Brainiac in his head right now helping him along.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

"We're not looking for pardons for everyone. But… Does that include everyone even slightly associated with the Syndicate, or just Made Men? If… An accountant who worked in an Syndicate-owned firm wanted to hand themselves in, or an engineer who worked on a Syndicate project and didn't commit a crime other than working for the Syndicate?"

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Many might not even know they're involved with the Syndicate...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"There may be room to negotiate, for those only tangentially involved. But President Wilson has committed himself to the destruction of the Syndicate. And he will not adulterate his ambition. I do not know if he would consider you to be a full member yet, but by staying here and speaking on their behalf you are putting yourself at risk."

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Soldiers, you can negotiate with. Fanatics, not so much...

I shrug. "We already have the technology to block the planeshift device your Lex Luthor used. I doubt that he's had the time to design a second device that works on a different basis."

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And the one Olympia and Power Ring Yellow used?

"No? Because it seems to me that Wilson started a war that has made the country much worse off. Every time he escalated they escalated right back. If he'd just not done that, the country's supervillains would still be spending more time fighting each other than fighting anyone else."

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Yep, he's leaning on the 'your boss is insane' angle...

"It was the peace settlement which brought an end to political violence in Northern Ireland."

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Ah, impressive that history flowed much the same regardless of morality.

Cit-? Okay, not sure what her jewel fixation is about, but at least it's orange.

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Presumably, the Star Sapphires were in the cosmic police game before the Guardians went for lanterns. So the concept of 'power-jewel wielder' stuck.

"You think that the Made Men of the Syndicate will become legitimate citizens if the President gives them a… Mulligan?"

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Not so much a mulligan as a 'okay, we'll forget that stuff, play nice now or we won't.'

"The President believed it was an attempt at misdirection. I had no opinion."

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He's a paranoid loony. I swear if this ends up with a fistfight in the Oval Office, or a battle of giant mechs...

At least, those that aren't build into Made Men.

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At least, those that aren't built into Made Men.

Oh goodness me. That's how I get them on-side. Evil Alan can give me their personnel files and I can work out how they can make money legallyish.

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This word feels a bit awkward. Perhaps 'legally-ish'?

And it won't go like it did with our Lex because they'll think I'm one of them and they're actively looking for better options.

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It didn't work too well with Lex-16p because he's got The Light hanging over his head. The Renegade's is doing much better.

"Not-. Lex Luthor will probably be President this time next year. You'll need to make sure you tell him as well, because he's going to have to live with it. And if the Quizmaster is as intelligent as his alter ego back on my home parallel, you should tell him so that he can make sure I'm not pulling something."

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Not said: "Because I do not want to be back here this time next year."

Seriously, I doubt Wilson will go for any of this. He's too invested in his 'Destroy the Syndicate' mania.

 

[Lord Ernest]

That chat and the Illustres' arguments made me want to read more about the Sybarite, you know. 'Cause that guy is kind of the supervillany Orange Lantern, with his 'I take what I want, intelligently, and make a profit' attitude.

In the meantime, I'm not sure from where the other shoe is gonna drop to make this situation more complicated than what it seems or what the Illustres think it is. Maybe Rose Wilson died in one of the retaliatory strikes of the Syndicate and now Slade is completely set in his 'Syndicate Delenda Est' mode? Maybe the Illustres and Zatanna get suck up into power politics of the Zatara Famiglia? Maybe some intransigent Syndicate member doesn't want to go with the 'Peace but with Profit' new Plan? So many possibilities... I really love visiting alternate universes and analyzing their problems.

 

[Cuchulin]

Isn't there are an actual low tier villain named quiz-something?

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I think Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl Stephane Brown's father was named Quizmaster or something like that and Teen Titans GO comics had Quiz kid a Riddler knock off about the same age as Robin called Quiz-kid.

 

[Lord Ernest]

In my mind, the color I associate with Citrine is yellow.

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I concur. Not that I know much about gems, but when I think about orange and gems, Amber comes to mind first.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, Amber is not a real gem, is it? I think is just fossilized sap or something?

 

[Mquz]

This version of Lex Luthor could quite literally do that while on the toilet...

And that's not even counting how given this is a Mirror of the JLAU Earth that diverged between Justice League and Justice League unlimited he would have a good version Brainiac in his head right now helping him along.

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Good to know, but the second thing is questionable considering how AU this fic is... but even if it is true, it would take time to build. While it would possibly take him an hour to invent the concept at most, it would take him a lot more time to put that concept into practice and test it - a couple weeks at least most likely.

 

[Stsword]

Isn't there are an actual low tier villain named quiz-something?

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You're probably thinking of Cluemaster, the Spoiler's father.

Doom Patrol has the Quiz though, the supervillain with every superpower you've never thought of.

 

[Mquz]

I concur. Not that I know much about gems, but when I think about orange and gems, Amber comes to mind first.

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Amber is usually more brownish. Could also be a Britishism

 

[Ngamer11]

If the Universe -14 version of Larfleeze is a sane good guy, I would like for Paul to contact him and for the two to curbstomp Wilson, who would never go for it, fanatical "heroes", who would never go for it, and Syndicate members, who would never go for it or will try to double-cross OL.

 

[Mquz]

Doom Patrol has the Quiz though, the supervillain with every superpower you've never thought of.

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Holy shit that is cheap as fuck - since her foes have to think of her abilities out loud while fighting her, she could just use the ability to stop all thoughts about superpowers within an area before the fight even starts.

 

[Mr Zoat]

At least, those that aren't build into Made Men.
At least, those that aren't built into Made Men.

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Thank you, corrected.

Oh goodness me. That's how I get them on-side. Evil Alan can give me their personnel files and I can work out how they can make money legallyish.
This word feels a bit awkward. Perhaps 'legally-ish'?

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It's supposed to feel a bit awkward.

That chat and the Illustres' arguments made me want to read more about the Sybarite, you know. 'Cause that guy is kind of the supervillany Orange Lantern, with his 'I take what I want, intelligently, and make a profit' attitude.

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Sybarite's problem is that by combining demon magic and orange light he's become someone who can't act rationally and instead has to get other people to be rational for him.

Holy shit that is cheap as fuck - since her foes have to think of her abilities out loud while fighting her, she could just use the ability to stop all thoughts about superpowers within an area before the fight even starts.

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And now she can't. Nice one.

 

[FreeGod]

If blue Paul had a lantern of his own he would have been running the Syndicate a long time ago and it never would have gotten this bad. I think. I don't know how different a hope based Paul would be.

 

[Mquz]

And now she can't. Nice one.

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She still can - that's the thing - I haven't fought her yet. I can think of the power, but it doesn't block her until she starts fighting me and I consciously think of her having that power - but that thought is itself a thought about superpowers. So long as she is the initial aggressor, she literally can't lose. And to do that all she needs is the power to always attack first. So the fight doesn't start until she attacks and that attack is with the power to stop blocking her attacks.

Or she could just use the ability to block all superpowers except X - where X is a given obscure power her opponents don't have. And that would force them to guess the power she isn't blocking. For example, they wouldn't think of her not blocking the ability to lick her forehead with her tongue. But that is a perfectly valid superpower.

 

[Mr Zoat]

If blue Paul had a lantern of his own he would have been running the Syndicate a long time ago and it never would have gotten this bad. I think. I don't know how different a hope based Paul would be.

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If he had a personal lantern he probably wouldn't have joined.

 

[FreeGod]

If he had a personal lantern he probably wouldn't have joined.

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True that, but what if he got it later after he started getting attached to the young offenders?

 

[ForeverShogo]

Thee argument feels a little naive and up his own ass . . . But yes, Wilson is definitely not going to go with it. It's just too personal for him after they murdered his wife.

 

[Lord Ernest]

If the Universe -14 version of Larfleeze is a sane good guy

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I don't think there's a Larfleeze in this universe. The Guardians got killed by Krona, so no time nor setup for Larfleeze and his gang to get the Orange Light Fountain, maybe there isn't an Orange Light Fountain. If the Star Sapphires are the heroes of the Galaxy, maybe their bad guys are the Red... I don't know, Garnets? And then maybe the Oranges would fall into an Anti-Hero sort of role, I think.

Sybarite's problem is that by combining demon magic and orange light he's become someone who can't act rationally and instead has to get other people to be rational for him.

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The simple fact that he at least though to get people to be rational for him makes him better than the majority of supervillains. Also is letting him make some serious profit and get away with being quasi-demon and banging a hot supervillain as well; that's just pure win.

 

[FreeGod]

Thee argument feels a little naive and up his own ass . . . But yes, Wilson is definitely not going to go with it. It's just too personal for him after they murdered his wife.

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This is a planet that hasn't been covered with scry wards. Paul is close to all knowing. He has many many different angles of attack.

 

[Vaermina]

Good to know, but the second thing is questionable considering how AU this fic is... but even if it is true, it would take time to build. While it would possibly take him an hour to invent the concept at most, it would take him a lot more time to put that concept into practice and test it - a couple weeks at least most likely.

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Baul arrived and started changing thing after Brianiac would have planted himself in Luthor.

That whole part of the storyline happened during the "Superman the Animated Series" bits of the universe.

 

[Mquz]

Baul arrived and started changing thing after Brianiac would have planted himself in Luthor.

That whole part of the storyline happened during the "Superman the Animated Series" bits of the universe.

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Like you keep pointing out, though, certain parts of the premise are different in Zoat's version of the DC multiverse. He maybe did leave that, but he might have changed it. It hasn't been specified in this fic, so it's not official canon yet.

 

[Ganurath]

Like you keep pointing out, though, certain parts of the premise are different in Zoat's version of the DC multiverse. He maybe did leave that, but he might have changed it. It hasn't been specified in this fic, so it's not official canon yet.

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Like you keep- Oh, you're taking Vaermina's statements about what is and isn't canon at face value. You shouldn't do that; their assertions are wrong with such consistency that many believe it to be deliberate. The movie Baul's universe is based off of is Earth -14, and the heroes that came to it were from Earth 14. The DCAU is Earth 12.