With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

BlueMangoAdea · May 21, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"Recognized, Aquaman, zero six, Aqualad, B zero two."

That's going to be awkward.

~~Edit: Ah what was here wasn't a typo. I misread something.~~

Darko · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Oh this'll be fun. Also, I really hope he backs Hong Kong. He should absolutely back Taiwan, given they're an independent country already.

Not necessarily in this universe they're not.

Also let us all pray to the jumped up elementals that this episode doesn't get Zoat banned from this site due to its no modern politics rule.

DAT_NOOB · May 21, 2020

I mean earth very much is a threat to the universe if we're honest.

and I re-hash a previous point, any supervillain need merely declare themselves in rebellion against the state and the justice league can't stop them.

Pauls perspective on this is stupid.

TheEyes · May 21, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Kon looks at him. "But Batman's got a plan for that, right?"

"Yes, it's called: 'Plan: We Have An Orbital Battlestation, and It's Pointed Downward'."

gustyeagle · May 21, 2020

Darko said:
Not necessarily in this universe they're not.

Also let us all pray to the jumped up elementals that this episode doesn't get Zoat banned from this site due to its no modern politics rule.

Where would He even go? I guess fanfiction. net doesn't really have any moderation for Zoat to get banned by...

RichardWhereat · May 21, 2020

DAT_NOOB said:
any supervillain need merely declare themselves in rebellion against the state and the justice league can't stop them.

Pauls perspective on this is stupid.

Sure, if the supervillain was supported by a majority of the population who also wanted to succeed from the state. Yeah, that'd count. But an individual wanting to just kill people to get money isn't really someone in rebellion. Even if they say they are.

BlueMangoAdea · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Sure, if the supervillain was supported by a majority of the population who also wanted to succeed from the state. Yeah, that'd count. But an individual wanting to just kill people to get money isn't really someone in rebellion. Even if they say they are.

Yeah, if a supervillain managed to gain the favor of majority of the population who want to succeed from the state without mind control, and they don't commit atrocities like slavery, they wouldn't be supervillains, anymore.

Ct613hulu · May 21, 2020

This reminds me of a lot of the conversation around the Responsibility to Protect and the idea that the United Nation could violate sovereignty in order to oppose genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.

It seems like this provides a precedent that allows for a reasonable argument that the Justice League should be willing to involve itself in the affairs of other countries in situations where the highest levels of the Responsibility to Protect would come into play.

RichardWhereat · May 21, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Richard shrugs. "Or they woke up to the fact that Justice League members do have political opinions. Or that like Paul says, the Justice League is the most powerful military force on Earth and might just decide that it doesn't want UN oversight anymore."

Kon looks at him. "But Batman's got a plan for that, right?"

TheEyes said:
"Yes, it's called: 'Plan: We Have An Orbital Battlestation, and It's Pointed Downward'."

Doesn't need an orbital battlestation to relinquish UN oversight. Just need to keep doing what they were doing before. Without their oversight. I imagine that most nations in the UN would still want their assistance, and would work out other treaties, or just the same treaty, as an individual nation.

DAT_NOOB · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Sure, if the supervillain was supported by a majority of the population who also wanted to succeed from the state. Yeah, that'd count. But an individual wanting to just kill people to get money isn't really someone in rebellion. Even if they say they are.

BlueMangoAdea said:
Yeah, if a supervillain managed to gain the favor of majority of the population who want to succeed from the state without mind control, and they don't commit atrocities like slavery, they wouldn't be supervillains, anymore.

Is the supertribe in brazil a majority of Brazil's population? rebellion takes many forms and can be comprised of a relatively lower per cent of the population.
The best example would be poison ivy (currently depowered) who wants to protect the green as such all her crimes are a part of her plant revolution, therefore, the league stopping her was suppressing the revolution.

lot's of supervillains have infrastructure and support networks (joker gang, league of shadows, vandal savage etc)

Ct613hulu said:
This reminds me of a lot of the conversation around the Responsibility to Protect and the idea that the United Nation could violate sovereignty in order to oppose genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.

It seems like this provides a precedent that allows for a reasonable argument that the Justice League should be willing to involve itself in the affairs of other countries in situations where the highest levels of the Responsibility to Protect would come into play.

Do you have any idea how many governments the league would have to overthrow?
EDIT: FICTIONAL GOVERNMENTS IN THIS FICTIONAL VERSION OF EARTH SET IN THE DC UNIVERSE

BlueMangoAdea · May 21, 2020

Hmmm. About the title "Low Politics", could it be that Paul just doesn't think these discussions are all that important, from his interstellar point of view?

TheEyes · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Sure, if the supervillain was supported by a majority of the population who also wanted to succeed from the state. Yeah, that'd count. But an individual wanting to just kill people to get money isn't really someone in rebellion. Even if they say they are.

"I am declaring this abandoned warehouse, that I bought with my own money, to be the Independent Nation of FuckAmericastan. All in favor? Aye! The motion carries; Justice League go fuck yourself."

Cuchulin · May 21, 2020

Since the American civil war came up I feel the need as a history buff to point out two things about that war, first is that Lincoln wasn't interested in ending slavery until after the war started and second that the South Fired the first shots rather than really trying for a peaceful separation.

RichardWhereat · May 21, 2020

DAT_NOOB said:
Is the supertribe in brazil a majority of Brazil's population? rebellion takes many forms and can be comprised of a relatively lower per cent of the population.
The best example would be poison ivy (currently depowered) who wants to protect the green as such all her crimes are a part of her plant revolution, therefore, the league stopping her was suppressing the revolution.

It's seemingly got the support of quite a few tribes from the Amazon Jungle, and there aren't any city folk living in there. They're a region of their own, that another region claims power over.

Well, the people living there disagree, and they've got the power to tell this 'foreign' government to fuck off.

BlueMangoAdea · May 21, 2020

TheEyes said:
"I am declaring this abandoned warehouse, that I bought with my own money, to be the Independent Nation of FuckAmericastan. All in favor? Aye! The motion carries; Justice League go fuck yourself."

I mean, theoretically? If they were able to actually run their government without any human right violation? Why not?

Chojin Patriarch · May 21, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
5th April
16:52 GMT -5

"…the eye-goo out of my hair for the next month, but we managed to deal with it."

Aw, you dealt with Tilletit's situation off-screen? Boo! But now we know it's not a major part of the episode...

Kon frowns as we head towards the training room.

"What happened to your environmental shield? Did the magic bypass it?"

I'd be impressed if it did. OL might be talking in the metaphorical, not-actually-sticky sense.

"No-. I mean, metaphorically. Yes, my environmental shield kept it from actually touching me but it was still pretty disturbing."

"What did it want, anyway?"

Good question. Did you ask it, OL?

"Eyeballs. We confirmed links between the elemental and the reliquaries the cult used to use."

"Why?"

No, seriously, if it turns out the eyeball 'god' was protecting the people from some demon that wants to eat (or do something worse to) women with eyeballs...

"Don't know and don't care. When you demand that people give you eyeballs, you lose the right to complain when they take yours."

Richard and Wallace look around as we enter the training room, Richard smiling…

Ah, here comes some teasing, I bet.

"What?"

"The UN Security Council wanted to talk to the Justice League about Brazil."

It's been what, a couple of weeks in-universe? I suppose it took them that long to read the reports and discuss them.

Wallace nods. "Sounds like they aren't too happy about a tribe with superpowers trying to take over a county. Or about the League not stopping them."

I frown. "But they didn't-." Understanding dawns. "Which Security Council member called the meeting?"

It's China, isn't it?

Richard's smile widens. "China."

"And they want to hash out the League's policy on civil wars."

Because of course they're swinging their metaphorical, political dick about... Perhaps they're feeling a little uncertain about their superpowered countrymen's loyalty?

He keeps smiling.

"Because they don't really care about Brazil, but they aren't all that keen on the idea of the League deciding that Taiwan or Hong Kong aren't part of the People's Republic and doing something about it."

Wow, OL can connect cause and effect! He's not as oblivious as he looks!

"And guess who just handed a city full of Atlantean separatists a space fleet?"

I turn to face Kon. "You didn't."

Pfft! You know, there is still that Kryptonian super-battleship under Texas...

He blinks in surprise. "No? Why did you give a separatist city a space fleet? I didn't even know you had a fleet."

"I personally don't have a fleet. LEGION on the other hand has several fleets. Dox has wanted to put some ships in this region of space for a while. I think he thinks we're a 'threat to the universe' or something."

Smart guy! He seems to be the only one concerned about it, that we've seen.

I shrug. Wallace grins.

"Ah, was he just talking about you there, Oh El, or do the rest of us count as well?"

Burn! You want some Aloe for that one, OL, or has your ring got it handled?

"Wallace, you can run at the speed of sound in an atmosphere without catching fire. I suspect that he actually finds you more offensive than me. And I didn't give them a fleet. Venturia is now a LEGION supplier, and is entitled to its protection. The rest of Atlantis has had next to nothing to do with it for more than fifty years and I'm fairly confident that the referendum they're holding will show landslide support for partition." I shrug. "That's good enough for me and it's more than good enough for Dox. What do you think a place should have to do for us to recognise its independence?"

A very good question. And one I hope they think about.

Kon shrugs. "Why do we have to do it at all?"

"Because we're the most powerful military force on the planet."

That barely even knows it's a military, too. Many of its members look at it more as a club than an army... Gods only know what they'd make of the JLU of Earth-12 (The DCAU.)

Wallace shakes his head.

"We're not a military."

Oh, look, prime example of denial.

"What was Mister Garrick doing during the Second World War?"

"Okay, yeah, and Russia didn't give more people super speed because they didn't want him to help America more people super speed. But Jay coulda given more people super speed anytime since the thirties."

Maybe he wanted to be special?

Richard bows his head slightly. "Yeah, that's the point. If you've got power, everyone else who wants to do anything has to take into account the fact that you might use it. The whole reason why we have anti-vigilante laws is because not everyone who wants to beat up bad guys has the same definition of 'bad' as everyone else."

Too true. Just look at the reactions people have in the movies towards Superman... Or the comic version of Batman's various takedown plans.

"But we're not.. going to invade Taiwan." Wallace looks a little nervous. "Right?"

"You tell me. What would have to happen for you to decide that invading Taiwan was the correct thing to do?"

I would hope it's something big...

"I dunno. World War Three?"

Kon doesn't look sure. "Most wars aren't as morally simple as World War Two. I don't think I'd want to fight in World War One."

"I totally would."

World War One was a political poochscrew of alliances, each one dragging country after another into that 'damn fool mess in the Balkans', as Bismarck put it.

"Themyscira didn't fight in World War One."

"Sure, but if I win a tournament I can call myself Wonder Man and go out and beat everyone into submission in the name of peace. I would be a just and fair hegemon-"

As long as you wear the outfit... I"m sure you'd look good...

Richard looks up at the ceiling for a moment. "Everyone else seeing Paul in Wonder Woman's-?"

Wallace and Kon nod.

I shrug. "It's unisex."

I'm surprised there were no shudders there. Especially if they were imagining just the leotard, not the skirt or armour.

Kon shakes his head. "I don't think men are allowed to participate in that tournament-. You already checked."

"You just have to be a citizen of a Themysciran city. In the old days men weren't, but I legally am."

...I'm not sure that's how they intended the law to be read. But hey, if you've got the legs for it...

"But the point-." Wallace stops and looks me over. "The point is, okay, just because there's a big war happening doesn't mean I'd need to get involved. I get it. And since I paid attention in history class I know that since the Second World War there's a whole lot of stuff the US government has done that I'd probably try and stop if I was there. But if Venturia can break away and you're fine with it, what's the difference between that and the American South breaking away before the Civil War? That was pretty popular in the South."

Besides moral objections to Slavery? Economic and cultural reasons.

"Slavery, obviously. If the South didn't have slaves and still wanted independence, what would be wrong with that?" I shrug. "Nothing. I mean, that's what democracy is all about: legitimacy comes from the consent of the governed. The people are sovereign. If the majority want to go, what right do the rest have to stop them?"

Richard folds his arms across his chest. "Can't see the US federal government seeing it that way. Or Poseidonis."

Hence OL's suggestion of a referendum of the Venturian people about their opinions on secession.

"Before I left Earth Prime, my country had a ballot scheduled on Scottish independence. If the nationalists won, a chunk of the United Kingdom would have separated with the consent of the national government, completely peacefully. But going back to the original point-."

Wallace nods. "China… What, they freaked out because if Taiwan made an army of super soldiers the Justice League might decide not to do anything about it?"

It's a whole can of big, wriggly political worms, isn't it?

Richard shrugs. "Or they woke up to the fact that Justice League members do have political opinions. Or that like Paul says, the Justice League is the most powerful military force on Earth and might just decide that it doesn't want UN oversight anymore."

Kon looks at him. "But Batman's got a plan for that, right?"

Batman has a plan for everything. He might not mention it openly, but he has a plan. It's kind of his thing, along with brooding, being a cool dad, and bats.

"Recognized, Aquaman, zero six, Aqualad, B zero two."

Kon pats me on the back, then the three of them make a speedy exit.

Oh, boy, this might get loud... And awkward, very awkward.

Well, OL's little fun in Brazil has really kicked the ant's nest of politics, hasn't it? I foresee a few bruised egos and stirred tempers ahead...
Both in-universe and out. Let's try to keep our discussion civil?

Mr Zoat · May 21, 2020

thebishop8 said:
Add "give" after "America".

Thank you, corrected.

Darko said:
Not necessarily in this universe they're not.

Taiwan 16 is de facto an independent country.

DAT_NOOB said:
Is the supertribe in brazil a majority of Brazil's population? rebellion takes many forms and can be comprised of a relatively lower per cent of the population.

They have an absolute majority in some areas.

Darko · May 21, 2020

DAT_NOOB said:
I mean earth very much is a threat to the universe if we're honest.

and I re-hash a previous point, any supervillain need merely declare themselves in rebellion against the state and the justice league can't stop them.

Pauls perspective on this is stupid.

As long as said supervillain has the agreement of a portion of the populace and is not trying to mind control them or planning on committing any atrocities on them or the people they are seceding from then OL would probably just let, assuming said supervillain hasn't already committed some kind of atrocity and OL needs to bring them down.

If they are planning on using violent methods to secede then OL may try to take them down, but if the government they are seceding from is committing atrocities against them, like ethnic cleansing, then they don't get to complain when their victims decide to fight back. If OL does decide to intervene in this then it may be to protect the civilians who didn't commit those atrocities while leaving the military and governmental buildings to their fates.

If the government isn't committing atrocities against them and they decide to use violence then he will try to take the secessionists down and maybe try to get them to adopt more sensible methods.

BlueMangoAdea said:
Hmmm. About the title "Low Politics", could it be that Paul just doesn't think these discussions are all that important, from his interstellar point of view?

This is possible, yes.

Gladiusone · May 21, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
They have an absolute majority in some areas.

I have the absolute majority of people in the area of 'my study' ... does that count?

RichardWhereat · May 21, 2020

Gladiusone said:
I have the absolute majority of people in the area of 'my study' ... does that count?

Do you have superpowers strong enough to tell our government to go fuck themselves, bring their police and armies, they can't do shit?

And survive, I mean.

david · May 21, 2020

TheEyes said:
"I am declaring this abandoned warehouse, that I bought with my own money, to be the Independent Nation of FuckAmericastan. All in favor? Aye! The motion carries; Justice League go fuck yourself."

I mean...sure. If the US (or whatever country this takes place in) just decides not to give them entry into the country and also doesn't send food into the warehouse, I imagine that FuckAmericastan could be bought with a sandwich and a glass of water within a day.

Vaermina · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Do you have superpowers strong enough to tell our government to go fuck themselves, bring their police and armies, they can't do shit?

And survive, I mean.

They don't though.

That particular formula doesn't make you immune to WMD's after all.

Slayer Anderson · May 21, 2020

DAT_NOOB said:
I mean earth very much is a threat to the universe if we're honest.

and I re-hash a previous point, any supervillain need merely declare themselves in rebellion against the state and the justice league can't stop them.

Pauls perspective on this is stupid.

Contrary to popular opinion, our terrorists aren't someone else's freedom fighters usually.

The Brazilian tribes got what they wanted mainly because they didn't go through with violence, that we know of... and I'm assuming that if they had done so, we the readers would have been informed if that situation had turned violent. The fact that the tribes didn't resort to violence and bargained the matter like reasonable people makes the world far more willing to not get involved if people aren't actively dying in a pitched conflict. If an actual civil war had broken out, though, I think that the stated tactics of the tribes and the widespread human suffering they would have caused as a result of their destruction of advanced civilian transportation, food production, medical, etc... infrastructure, would have been enough of a cassus belli to force the UN's hand on allowing the Justice League to intervene in some way, even if it was only using them to safeguard major civilian centers as a defensive measure. Such an act would have tacitly put them in the defacto position of fighting against the Brazilian tribes even if their stated position was overall neutrality. That's putting aside the issue that the tribes had planned to make the conflict an international one eventually as well.

I think, though, Paul's admittedly missing the dimension of possessing a preponderance of force, if not to win a conflict, then enough to make it unfeasible to fight it in the first place.

...and, admittedly again, the preponderance of force is where things get very... messy in settings like these. You have specific individuals who, if so inclined, could take on entire governments and overrule them. I think the differentiating factor in regards to whether or not a given super/cape actually has popular support of their region or has been empowered by locals to act on their behalf.

IE: A simple declaration of a supervillain's disagreement with the state shouldn't and isn't enough to validate them as a 'state in rebellion.' It's the idea of a group of supers or a single super acting on behalf of a group's interests which is especially worrying to a lot of governments, because doing so in as reasonable a fashion as possible in the context of your movement can seriously undermine the legitimacy of the extant government.

I think that's in large part what this entire conflict is over, really: whether or not enough amassed support can or should make a region's government, if created in opposition to a national one, legitimate or not.

Viewed in that lens, Paul has an entirely valid point of view on the subject given that he's in favor of it. National governments who want to maintain borders as-is and would like to keep the status quo, obviously, aren't going to be in favor of anything which removes land and people from their administration. Putting aside China being, well... China about Taiwan, governments should be concerned that groups within their own borders are attempting to amass an amount of war materiel (be it guns or superhumans) to make secession a legitimate question in a conflict rather than a foregone conclusion.

Unlike Paul's stance on the issue, though, I think the matter is more complicated than what he lets on in this chapter. Economics, natural resources, infrastructure stability, political revanchism by larger groups against secession... and a lot of other factors make the matter far more complex than a simple yes/no answer. In theory, though, I agree that should a group large enough to form their own society have the means, political will, and legitimacy to do so, they should be allowed to. The devil is in the details.

Handlewithcare · May 21, 2020

The reason we still have people making value judgements is that rules codified in language are too inflexible to govern every situation.

Wether or not an uprising is truly that or a political ploy will have to be decided on a case by case basis.

Regarding Batman has a plan: Big Yellow just pondered irreplacable personal being a weakness. The JL needs an understudy for Bats in the sneaky bastard category.

w34v3r · May 21, 2020

BlueMangoAdea said:
I mean, theoretically? If they were able to actually run their government without any human right violation? Why not?

Well in this specific example the problem is that said warehouse and population are still benefitting from american infrastructure and services. Unless said ware house is set up to be completely self sufficient without drawing upon the local power/water/gas/internet connections or alternatively paying the rates for them associated with a foreign national buying those services. There also needs to be border agreements, extradition rules, import/export taxes, etc.

If you go through the work to set it all up, and do so in a mostly legal manner then sure, OL probably won't give a fuck.

But just buying the land and declaring yourself an independent nation doesn't work.

Cuchulin · May 21, 2020

w34v3r said:
But just buying the land and declaring yourself an independent nation doesn't work.

Micro-nations are a thing, but everyone mostly ignores because the population is pretty much always less than a hundred people and they have no military power to speak of.

Darko · May 21, 2020

Vaermina said:
They don't though.

That particular formula doesn't make you immune to WMD's after all.

Or chemical/biological weapons for that matter.

The Sons of Dawn did mostly die from exposure to diseases they didn't have resistance to after all .

DAT_NOOB · May 21, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
It's seemingly got the support of quite a few tribes from the Amazon Jungle, and there aren't any city folk living in there. They're a region of their own, that another region claims power over.

Well, the people living there disagree, and they've got the power to tell this 'foreign' government to fuck off.

Sure and when the civilians working on that land get attacked and their equipment destroyed by south America's premier supervillain team? Even assuming that's the end of their claims they aren't just claiming the region they live in, they were claiming most of the continent if I remember correctly.

Mr Zoat said:
They have an absolute majority in some areas.

Zoat, you said in the story that the tribes first claim consumed three countries and a lot of cities potentially displacing millions.

Darko said:
As long as said supervillain has the agreement of a portion of the populace and is not trying to mind control them or planning on committing any atrocities on them or the people they are seceding from then OL would probably just let, assuming said supervillain hasn't already committed some kind of atrocity and OL needs to bring them down.

If they are planning on using violent methods to secede then OL may try to take them down, but if the government they are seceding from is committing atrocities against them, like ethnic cleansing, then they don't get to complain when their victims decide to fight back. If OL does decide to intervene in this then it may be to protect the civilians who didn't commit those atrocities while leaving the military and governmental buildings to their fates.

If the government isn't committing atrocities against them and they decide to use violence then he will try to take the secessionists down and maybe try to get them to adopt more sensible methods.

So the Brazilian government need merely ignore their demands?

Slayer Anderson said:
Contrary to popular opinion, our terrorists aren't someone else's freedom fighters usually.

The Brazilian tribes got what they wanted mainly because they didn't go through with violence, that we know of... and I'm assuming that if they had done so, we the readers would have been informed if that situation had turned violent. The fact that the tribes didn't resort to violence and bargained the matter like reasonable people makes the world far more willing to not get involved if people aren't actively dying in a pitched conflict. If an actual civil war had broken out, though, I think that the stated tactics of the tribes and the widespread human suffering they would have caused as a result of their destruction of advanced civilian transportation, food production, medical, etc... infrastructure, would have been enough of a cassus belli to force the UN's hand on allowing the Justice League to intervene in some way, even if it was only using them to safeguard major civilian centers as a defensive measure. Such an act would have tacitly put them in the defacto position of fighting against the Brazilian tribes even if their stated position was overall neutrality. That's putting aside the issue that the tribes had planned to make the conflict an international one eventually as well.

We know they destroyed several foresty expeditions, although they did attack at night to avoid human casualties, I don't remember if anyone was injured.

Slayer Anderson said:
Contrary to popular opinion, our terrorists aren't someone else's freedom fighters usually.

I think, though, Paul's admittedly missing the dimension of possessing a preponderance of force, if not to win a conflict, then enough to make it unfeasible to fight it in the first place.

...and, admittedly again, the preponderance of force is where things get very... messy in settings like these. You have specific individuals who, if so inclined, could take on entire governments and overrule them. I think the differentiating factor in regards to whether or not a given super/cape actually has popular support of their region or has been empowered by locals to act on their behalf.

IE: A simple declaration of a supervillain's disagreement with the state shouldn't and isn't enough to validate them as a 'state in rebellion.' It's the idea of a group of supers or a single super acting on behalf of a group's interests which is especially worrying to a lot of governments, because doing so in as reasonable a fashion as possible in the context of your movement can seriously undermine the legitimacy of the extant government.

Why should a superpowered individual not be allowed to be in a valid state of rebellion? or even them and their lackey's? The justice society stopped Munro why should their successors the justice league not stop Munro's successors?

Slayer Anderson said:
Contrary to popular opinion, our terrorists aren't someone else's freedom fighters usually.

I think that's in large part what this entire conflict is over, really: whether or not enough amassed support can or should make a region's government, if created in opposition to a national one, legitimate or not.

Viewed in that lens, Paul has an entirely valid point of view on the subject given that he's in favor of it. National governments who want to maintain borders as-is and would like to keep the status quo, obviously, aren't going to be in favor of anything which removes land and people from their administration. Putting aside China being, well... China about Taiwan, governments should be concerned that groups within their own borders are attempting to amass an amount of war materiel (be it guns or superhumans) to make secession a legitimate question in a conflict rather than a foregone conclusion.

If that's the case the Paul shouldn't complain if non-superpowered governments take radical means to suppress superpowered rebellion, I think Paul mention something about WMD's being used but that may have been conversation surrounding the update rather than the update itself

Slayer Anderson said:
Contrary to popular opinion, our terrorists aren't someone else's freedom fighters usually.

Unlike Paul's stance on the issue, though, I think the matter is more complicated than what he lets on in this chapter. Economics, natural resources, infrastructure stability, political revanchism by larger groups against secession... and a lot of other factors make the matter far more complex than a simple yes/no answer. In theory, though, I agree that should a group large enough to form their own society have the means, political will, and legitimacy to do so, they should be allowed to. The devil is in the details.

I'm not contending that last point, any group with the means and will to rebel should what I disagree with is the interpretation of the leagues charter.

King of Frost · May 21, 2020

Handlewithcare said:
Regarding Batman has a plan: Big Yellow just pondered irreplacable personal being a weakness. The JL needs an understudy for Bats in the sneaky bastard category.

I don't keep up with all of the different universes, but this is usually one of the reasons Batman takes in and trains the various Robins.

They learn his methods, get trained up to his skill level, and a Robin, usually Dick Grayson, takes over as Batman if something happens to Bruce.

Slayer Anderson · May 21, 2020

DAT_NOOB said:
Why should a superpowered individual not be allowed to be in a valid state of rebellion? or even them and their lackey's? The justice society stopped Munro why should their successors the justice league not stop Munro's successors?

If that's the case the Paul shouldn't complain if non-superpowered governments take radical means to suppress superpowered rebellion, I think Paul mention something about WMD's being used but that may have been conversation surrounding the update rather than the update itself

I'm not contending that last point, any group with the means and will to rebel should what I disagree with is the interpretation of the leagues charter.

Note that I didn't say a superhero, supervillain, or super-powered person in general shouldn't be allowed to be in a valid state of rebellion, I just made the delineation that declaring oneself in rebellion isn't enough. Just because Poison Ivy disagrees with the government's position on conservation shouldn't automatically entitle her to the protection of foreign political recognition when she's running around committing crimes, murdering people, and using violence to promote her own views even if there is a political dimension to them. At best, that's still terrorism because she's making a unilateral judgement that civilian casualties who have nothing to do with her opposition beliefs to the government are valid targets for reprisal. At worst, she's still just a common criminal because her crimes usually have some kind of selfish financial motivation as well.

As far as governments using radical means to suppress super-powered rebellions, and putting aside whether such behavior would engender such rebellion in the first place, if the super-powered individual in question isn't open to reasonable negotiation of the matter at hand then possibly. My answer would rest on whether or not the government or state in question made sufficiently sincere attempts at resolving the matter through non-violent means.

My entire point isn't that superpowers offer a more or less legitimate source of political power, but instead whether or not a rebellion is founded on more traditional military force or exotic force (super powers, magic, alien support), it should be held to the same standards as a rebellion without such advantages. IE: recognition of civilians as noncombatants, restraint of behavior to the rules of war, behavior in line with the good of the society they espouse to govern, respect for general human rights, popular support of the governed, etc...

Whether or not a government has the support of an ALMIGHTY PUNCH WIZARD like Superman shouldn't affect their legitimacy, how they abide to reasonable standards of behavior for a government should. That applies to both a national government and any group which wants to be recognized as a state in rebellion.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Alive. For now.

Connoisseur.

Accused of writing in a far away land

Well worn.

Know what you're doing yet?

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Alive. For now.

Experienced.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Accused of writing in a far away land

Alive. For now.

Well worn.

Versed in the lewd.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Alive. For now.

Veteran Lurker

Dedicated ragequitter

Connoisseur.

Well worn.

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

Getting sticky.

Well worn.

Orthodox Heretic

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Connoisseur.

Accused of writing in a far away land

Wishing I was somewhere colder no doubt.

Orthodox Heretic

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