With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[dxdragon]

...Now I just want to see Paul talk to Lex, pat him on the back for actually stepping up to work on interstellar trade, and then leave.


Khan isn't doing anything evil, and it is up to the UN to decide how they want to deal with trade between worlds. A lone hero should not be deciding the fate of Earth's trade.


Hell, what did they think would happen, with all of the aliens who come to Earth? That none of them would show up and try to exploit them with trade instead of throwing punches?


This is a strictly non-hero related situation. If the League can't intervene in civil wars, or Brazil's internal situation, then they sure as hell can't decide for EVERY country in the world's economic policy.

If someone (Lex) want's to open trade, gain access to tech that, while considered outdated for space, is light-years ahead on Earth? Go for it!

We can get spaceships, replicators, fusion plants, etc!

TLDR: Earth is gonna find out that their the Native Americans, and ClusterCorp is just the first of the European Settlers.

 

[Darko]

TLDR: Earth is gonna find out that their the Native Americans, and ClusterCorp is just the first of the European Settlers.

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This reminds me of a scene in the story 'Judiciary Misadventures' on SB.

After the Light is destroyed Batman and Flash wonder what they can do to improve the Earth and Flash asks Hawkgirl for advice.

One of the tings she says is that they are going to need to get a unified government because no one is going to want to hash out deals with hundreds of different nations and it would be extremely easy for the people of Earth to end up like the Native Americans did.

 

[moralrelativity]

Arnus is Icon...

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Thank you!

 

[Darko]

For this whole OL is wrong or right debate I think he was right as the governments haven't done any planning for this even if they have had decades to do so.

Paul's methods in handling this situation are something that most people won't agree with, but sometimes you need to employ unorthodox methods to finally solve a situation.

Key and Peele have already proven that sometimes unorthodox methods can solve an issue.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Humans, as a species, are inclined to ignore what they consider to be the low probability/risk stuff. Because they want to get on with living their lives. The world-ending sky rock, etc., etc. But, for some of this stuff you at least need to have a group, like the UN, or some other world-wide organisation, to keep an eye out. Relying on individuals, super or otherwise, just isn't good enough.

I found reading about Black Swan Theory interesting...

 

[BR549]

Because he as much as says so? Not wanting to deal with it necessarily means that someone else should be capable of doing it. He's given advice and served as a middle man already, so it's not like he's being deliberately obtuse.

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It's also worth remembering that for both Paul and Grayven their main issue with the Light isn't their actual goal, it's the supervillian means to that end.

And that goal?

"Earth standing on its own galactic feet without being propped up by superpowered beings."

If Paul stuck his nose in what is, by all evidence, an entirely legal and above-board trading expedition, then he completely undercuts that point.

It's not Clark Kents job to deal with flooding in Africa, he's a damn reporter. It's not Bruce Wayne's job to deal with thugs in gotham, It's not Olliver Queens job to deal with crime in Star City.

They Chose to be more, to make the stuff that isn't their problem, thier problem to deal with.

This is 100% OL's problem and he dserves shit for his downright petulant behaviour, but he won't because he's an SI.

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Yes, they Chose.

Orange Lantern, on the other hand, did not. He never asked for this. And, as mentioned above, his Getting Involved runs in direct counter to his stated principles. (Congratulations, you don't want him to be a superhero, you want him to be a politician.)

The petulant behavior here is on the part of the entire rest of the Justice League, of whom only Aquaman is remotely justified in being annoyed at OL at the moment, who are demanding Paul act as at least Ambassador Of Earth if not - as he explicitly said he Does Not Want - King Of Earth in dealing with a legal alien trading expedition that is coincidental but entirely unrelated to his calling for OLC backup when it comes to the situation under the sea.

Let us, as you said above, lay out casuality here:

-OL called for backup to be on station if it became needed, in exchange for the mages he needed.
-Dox decided it would be funny to send Manga Khan to Earth as the backup, because then Paul has to deal with him and Dox doesn't.
-Manga Khan, entirely on his own account as a businessman (businessgascloud?), decided to kill two avians with one projectile and wear his ClusterCorp hat at the same time he wears his Orange Lantern Corps ring.
-Paul makes it very clear that the trading expedition is not his circus, and thus, not his monkeys, for very good reasons that are entirely consistent with his prior actions and stated beliefs.
-Everybody else points at Paul to deal with the aforementioned monkeys' poop-flinging, a job that many of them are far better suited to do, just because, coincidentally, the leader of the monkeys' troop happens to wear an orange ring.

Paul is entirely justified at being annoyed at everybody else who is not only deliberately shirking their duties but are going out of their way to do so and leave him stuck with the job, and when the explosions inevitably occur (most likely as the cliffhanger to tomorrow's story post) he will be entirely justified in writing 'I TOLD YOU SO' in sufficiently-sized orange letters to cover the entire Earth-facing side of Luna.

 

[Grimnar]

. (Congratulations, you don't want him to be a superhero, you want him to be a politician.)

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He's literally doing this to see his politics furthered, he's already acting as a politician in practice. His entire stance here is political, because it's to further his political agenda. So no, this holds no water.

 

[BR549]

He's literally doing this to see his politics furthered, he's already acting as a politician in practice. His entire stance here is political, because it's to further his political agenda. So no, this holds no water.

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...

 

[Ace Dreamer]

...

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While that image resembles me, far too much, I'd like to think of the joke as tapping me on the shoulder, and, maybe tapping its foot, because I often eventually get it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

-Dox decided it would be funny to send Manga Khan to Earth as the backup, because then Paul has to deal with him and Dox doesn't.

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Dox is not doing this because he finds it funny. Dox doesn't have much of a sense of humour.

 

[SirKaid]

One thing I'd like to ask the "Paul should be handling this, that asshole!" crowd is: what, exactly, do you want him to do?

Khan isn't breaking any Earth laws. Okay, maybe the Australian airspace thing, but as Paul lives in America and Australia hasn't requested Justice League assistance it's a bit much to expect him to drop everything to handle what amounts to a parking violation.

Khan isn't breaking any Green Lantern laws. If he was, the Greenies could handle it, most likely by asking Paul for a minor favour, Lantern to Lantern.

Khan isn't breaking any Orange Lantern regulations. OLs are explicitly allowed to use their rings for their own personal business.

Khan isn't breaking any LEGION regulations. He isn't offering mercenary services to anyone other than Venturia, and even then Paul isn't a member of LEGION so it's not his problem unless Dox asks a favour.

Paul is not the King of Earth and does not set Earth trade policy. If the UN passes a resolution he could enforce it, but he's not in charge.

So I ask again: what the actual fuck do you want him to do?

 

[Doccer]

I did not need one chapter like that in my life and the longer we go without another one the less Zatanna gets traumatized.

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Just because we don't experience it doesn't mean she doesn't.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Khan isn't breaking any LEGION regulations. He isn't offering mercenary services to anyone other than Venturia, and even then Paul isn't a member of LEGION so it's not his problem unless Dox asks a favour.

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He is offering private security services, but that would only break LEGION regulations if he provided it to Atlantis.

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

He is offering private security services, but that would only break LEGION regulations if he provided it to Atlantis.

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Is Khan aware of LEGION regulations?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Is Khan aware of LEGION regulations?

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It's... Hard to say.

 

[Darko]

It's... Hard to say.

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He's probably aware enough to get out of any trouble.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

It's... Hard to say.

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I might suspect L-Ron, or a similar robot, knows... Lord Manga Khan might consider these 'fiddly details', unworthy of recall by his immense intellect.

 

[Grimnar]

He is offering private security services,

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To Who? Governments who generally have a need for such support arn't the type of people to trust outsiders to provide it, and if it's not government, then are the provided forces providing security services in accordance with local laws?

As a matter of fact, if it's not government, do they even have licence to operate such services and leave to enter the country? And the host goverments are just openly accepting while it's openly happening?

 

[Idkusername]

To Who? Governments who generally have a need for such support arn't the type of people to trust outsiders to provide it, and if it's not government, then are the provided forces providing security services in accordance with local laws?

As a matter of fact, if it's not government, do they even have licence to operate such services and leave to enter the country? And the host goverments are just openly accepting while it's openly happening?

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Are you being intentionally antagonising or obtuse? An offer does not mean that it has been taken up.

Also, governments look for mercenaries precisely when they can't source it from within, otherwise why the hell would they even need them?

Why are you assuming that local laws have been violated without proof, even if people have taken Khan up on his offer of mercenary work? (Which itself is a big if)

Please do not be contrary just because the thread disagrees with you. It's a really good way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[Darko]

Are you being intentionally antagonising or obtuse? An offer does not mean that it has been taken up.

Also, governments look for mercenaries precisely when they can't source it from within, otherwise why the hell would they even need them?

Why are you assuming that local laws have been violated without proof, even if people have taken Khan up on his offer of mercenary work? (Which itself is a big if)

Please do not be contrary just because the thread disagrees with you. It's a really good way to shoot yourself in the foot.

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Think Grim may be having a Vaermina episode.

It happens to the best of us sometimes.

 

[Grimnar]

Also, governments look for mercenaries precisely when they can't source it from within, otherwise why the hell would they even need them?

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Many countries routinely suppliment their militaries with private contractors, the US and UK included. Most other countries with ongoing military commitments do the same.

When they do however, their first port of call is internal security services because they in effect act as a private extension of their militaries. They are also subject to high degrees of oversight and law because when they don't, they tend to go around raping and slaughtering people.

Hiring mercs from other countries is something to avoid... as the recent incident that won't be named shows you the reliability of external Security contrators.

 

[Darko]

Many countries routinely suppliment their militaries with private contractors, the US and UK included. Most other countries with ongoing military commitments do the same.

When they do however, their first port of call is internal security services because they in effect act as a private extension of their militaries. They are also subject to high degrees of oversight and law because when they don't, they tend to go around raping and slaughtering people.

Hiring mercs from other countries is something to avoid... as the recent incident that won't be named shows you the reliability of external Security contrators.

Click to shrink...

If the countries don't care what their regular soldiers do to their own population then they won't most likely care what mercs are doing to them.

If the mercs have been hired by some African country, which are notorious for corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude, then hiring the mercs without safety precautions is highly probable.

 

[Kalem_Lee]

I'm liking this arc so far.

The Earth needs to get on the Cosmic pecking order for reelz. Seriously do not let Lex be the only one stepping up.

 

[memzak]

Hiya! Been keeping up with this story for a year or two now and just recently finished binge reading the couple months of backlog. Decided to make an account on this forum to just chuck in a general-response post after that parallel paul crisis event. I actually really enjoyed it, getting to see all the disparate Paul-threads weaved together into a sweater of Paul-packed multiverse-drama was really neat.

Might be a bit delayed (or might be a bit early, given we never got a breakdown of the crisis event's aftermath), but something that has been bothering me is the lack of... well... any change to the status quo because of it. We get mentions of alternate Paul's getting access to Big Orange's database, but OL doesn't even give a throwaway mention of anything he might have received in return. Information on Atrocitus's Blood Runes? The Boys's Compound V formula? Inviolate's anti-malthusian technology? All potentially really exciting stuff that wouldn't fit right in with what he was already doing.

Ignoring that, however, why has OL not jumped at the opportunity to acquire rings of other colors? This crossover event was pretty much the only reasonable way through which he could acquire some, and even if (miraculously) none of the alternate Pauls died in battle... why not go for Gold? Inviolate's universe was most likely the only place he would be able to get access to the light of Will (albeit in Gold) without malthusian malware. Heck, Time Trapper could surely have paradox-ed any lost/unused rings into existence in return for OL's help in fixing his home timeline?

I do acknowledge that these things might be revealed in due course, but the lack of even a throwaway sentence regarding it is vexing and not having any information feeds that he niggling fear that everything will just go back to 'normal' with no substantial change despite that being rather contrary to one of Paul's core desires / the core themes of this story.

 

[Grimnar]

If the countries don't care what their regular soldiers do to their own population then they won't most likely care what mercs are doing to them.

If the mercs have been hired by some African country, which are notorious for corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude, then hiring the mercs without safety precautions is highly probable.

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No, that's THE most improbable thing, because they would know how tenous their control is, and this directly undermines them by spending cash they could be using to support their support base, and bring in potential threats. That's the very Last thing they would do.

 

[Darko]

No, that's THE most improbable thing, because they would know how tenous their control is, and this directly undermines them by spending cash they could be using to support their support base, and bring in potential threats. That's the very Last thing they would do.

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You're expecting them to make an intelligent decision when they are presented with the chance at getting tech that could help them conquer the planet.

What cash, Earth money is worthless in the rest of the galaxy.

They may just want the potential clients to pay them in flowers that their country has in abundance, but has no use for them, however ClusterCorp could use them as some kind of legal drug or medicine.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Hiya! Been keeping up with this story for a year or two now and just recently finished binge reading the couple months of backlog. Decided to make an account on this forum to just chuck in a general-response post after that parallel paul crisis event. I actually really enjoyed it, getting to see all the disparate Paul-threads weaved together into a sweater of Paul-packed multiverse-drama was really neat.

Might be a bit delayed (or might be a bit early, given we never got a breakdown of the crisis event's aftermath), but something that has been bothering me is the lack of... well... any change to the status quo because of it. We get mentions of alternate Paul's getting access to Big Orange's database, but OL doesn't even give a throwaway mention of anything he might have received in return. Information on Atrocitus's Blood Runes? The Boys's Compound V formula? Inviolate's anti-malthusian technology? All potentially really exciting stuff that wouldn't fit right in with what he was already doing.

Ignoring that, however, why has OL not jumped at the opportunity to acquire rings of other colors? This crossover event was pretty much the only reasonable way through which he could acquire some, and even if (miraculously) none of the alternate Pauls died in battle... why not go for Gold? Inviolate's universe was most likely the only place he would be able to get access to the light of Will (albeit in Gold) without malthusian Malware. Heck, surely, Time Trapper could have even paradox-ed any lost/unused rings into existence in return for OL's help in fixing his home timeline?

I do acknowledge that these things might be revealed in due course, but the lack of even a throwaway sentence regarding it is vexing and not having any information feeds that he niggling fear that everything will just go back to 'normal' with no substantial change despite that being rather contrary to one of Paul's core desires / the core themes of this story.

Click to shrink...

That's a reasonable point. I'll make reference to it in a future segment.

 

[Coda]

OL reaches out the Guardians about the creation of an Orange Lantern Corp.
He captures Larfleeze and the CPB.
He recruits dox.
He introduces the Controlling Controller and Dox as the new leader.
He recruits optimal lanterns.

Without his unique involvement and investments the Orange Lantern Corp wouldn't exist. Every bit of good it does and every bit of bad is does is a consequence of his actions to a far more egregious degree than just calling those rings. As the creating infleunce the messes they cause are a result of his actions.

This is how Causality works. Action to consequence and so on.


To act as if this has nothing to do with OL is fucking nonsensical because he set all this into motion. And as is the case with the Rings, everyone rightly holds him responsable for actions he knowing and deliberately took. And this isn't going to be a one time thing. He created the damn thing and others will hold him accountable for his actions.

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Let me tell you the true story of Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad.

A lady named Helen was waiting for her train. As a different train on the other side of the platform started to leave, a man carrying a box who was running late sprinted up and tried to jump on the moving train. A member of the train crew and a platform guard helped out, with the guard pushing the man as the crewman pulled him in.

Unbeknownst to anyone else, the man's box contained fireworks. He dropped it when he was being pushed into the train, and the fireworks detonated. This caused a tall weighing scale to fall over onto Helen, causing painful but non-serious injuries and leaving her with a stress-induced stutter for several months.

Who was responsible for Helen's injury?

Helen sued the railroad company, asserting that if the platform guard hadn't pushed the man, he wouldn't have dropped the box and none of that would have happened.

The court disagreed. While it's true that the guard caused the incident, he was not responsible for it: He had no way of knowing that the box contained explosives, and even had he known that he couldn't have predicted that it would have exploded from the fall, and even if he had anticipated that he couldn't have predicted that it would have knocked over an object that was more than ten feet away. The only part of that chain of events that might have been a foreseeable consequence was that the traveler might drop his box when being pushed onto a moving train, and that negligence (if it was negligence) wasn't the direct ("proximate") cause of Helen's injury.

So yes: cause and responsibility are different things. They're related, but the distinction between them is important and must be observed.

 

[Darko]

Hiya! Been keeping up with this story for a year or two now and just recently finished binge reading the couple months of backlog. Decided to make an account on this forum to just chuck in a general-response post after that parallel paul crisis event. I actually really enjoyed it, getting to see all the disparate Paul-threads weaved together into a sweater of Paul-packed multiverse-drama was really neat.

Might be a bit delayed (or might be a bit early, given we never got a breakdown of the crisis event's aftermath), but something that has been bothering me is the lack of... well... any change to the status quo because of it. We get mentions of alternate Paul's getting access to Big Orange's database, but OL doesn't even give a throwaway mention of anything he might have received in return. Information on Atrocitus's Blood Runes? The Boys's Compound V formula? Inviolate's anti-malthusian technology? All potentially really exciting stuff that wouldn't fit right in with what he was already doing.

Ignoring that, however, why has OL not jumped at the opportunity to acquire rings of other colors? This crossover event was pretty much the only reasonable way through which he could acquire some, and even if (miraculously) none of the alternate Pauls died in battle... why not go for Gold? Inviolate's universe was most likely the only place he would be able to get access to the light of Will (albeit in Gold) without malthusian Malware. Heck, surely, Time Trapper could have even paradox-ed any lost/unused rings into existence in return for OL's help in fixing his home timeline?

I do acknowledge that these things might be revealed in due course, but the lack of even a throwaway sentence regarding it is vexing and not having any information feeds that he niggling fear that everything will just go back to 'normal' with no substantial change despite that being rather contrary to one of Paul's core desires / the core themes of this story.

Click to shrink...

Knowledge of other super power formulas that probably don't require you to have a human soul is nice.

And knowledge on how magic and power rings can be used in tandem with each other would also be nice.
We may finally see Paul use some advanced magic, aside from his instinctual spiritual powers and that bit of plant manipulation.

 

[Idkusername]

Let me tell you the true story of Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad.

A lady named Helen was waiting for her train. As a different train on the other side of the platform started to leave, a man carrying a box who was running late sprinted up and tried to jump on the moving train. A member of the train crew and a platform guard helped out, with the guard pushing the man as the crewman pulled him in.

Unbeknownst to anyone else, the man's box contained fireworks. He dropped it when he was being pushed into the train, and the fireworks detonated. This caused a tall weighing scale to fall over onto Helen, causing painful but non-serious injuries and leaving her with a stress-induced stutter for several months.

Who was responsible for Helen's injury?

Helen sued the railroad company, asserting that if the platform guard hadn't pushed the man, he wouldn't have dropped the box and none of that would have happened.

The court disagreed. While it's true that the guard caused the incident, he was not responsible for it: He had no way of knowing that the box contained explosives, and even had he known that he couldn't have predicted that it would have exploded from the fall, and even if he had anticipated that he couldn't have predicted that it would have knocked over an object that was more than ten feet away. The only part of that chain of events that might have been a foreseeable consequence was that the traveler might drop his box when being pushed onto a moving train, and that negligence (if it was negligence) wasn't the direct ("proximate") cause of Helen's injury.

So yes: cause and responsibility are different things. They're related, but the distinction between them is important and must be observed.

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Is that a fellow law student I see?