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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Mr Zoat said:
I'm sorry, this sounds like something I should actually have read. Would anyone care to reiterate?
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'Vaermina said:
Paul you idiot... A million tonnes of neutronium is nothing...

It's like... Less then a square millimeter of the stuff... And less weight then a small mountain... Meaning it would have no real gravitational pull to speak of...
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Exact quote.
 
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BlueMangoAdea said:
I didn't use the automatic quote function.
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Even if you had, it was explicitly a message bringing up the requested message and anyone can briefly turn off the block until they refresh page or move to a different page. You could literally make it not a quote if you had to take it a step further I suppose, but that seems unnecessary.
 
Mr Zoat said:
I'm sorry, this sounds like something I should actually have read. Would anyone care to reiterate?
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Basically, it's an issue with the units. While a million tonnes is a lot on a personal level, it's tiny compared to a planet. For example, Pluto itself is 1.30900 * 1019​ tonnes. A mere 106 ​tonnes of neutronium (or any substance) is going to change the mass of the planet by so little that it doesn't even show up it the mass I gave. At orbital distances, the sudden increase in gravity from a million tonnes appearing is infinitesimal.

MPluto​+109 ​/ MPluto ​= 1.00000000008x increase in the gravitational pull of Pluto.

Put another way:
1 million tonnes at 1 km = 1000*G.
A 100kg person at 30 cm = 1111*G

You have more gravitational attraction to the person sitting next to you in a movie theater than the 1 million tonne piece of neutronium a kilometer away (and likely still further given the ship is orbiting Pluto). Both are still tiny, though.

Edit: As an interesting note, with solid granite, a million tonnes is a cube 74 meters on a side. Not even a small mountain.
 
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So ignoring the Neutronium thing, is Pluto a star conqueror that just gathered debris to form a planet around it? I seem to remember they get pretty large.
 
The Vale said:
So ignoring the Neutronium thing, is Pluto a star conqueror that just gathered debris to form a planet around it? I seem to remember they get pretty large.
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Possibly here; I don't think that's happened in canon, but there was a story where Starro had "a base" on Pluto.

...that story was the one where Superman visted Earth-C. Captain Carrot's universe.
 
LurkingInTheDeceit said:
No, V says stuff like this:
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That was just the quote I had readily available at hand. I'm not inclined to sort through his posting history, but I can do it if you want to. And he most assuredly does not act that way only while responding.

Also, you'll notice, the 'motherfucker' quote from me is not an insult, but a reference to the film 'Pulp Fiction'.

LurkingInTheDeceit said:
It not equivalent, at all. There's only so far past reputation can justify your gut reactions, especially when I've seen interactions with V and others (presumably not regular commentators) that are generally positive on both sides. Even the regular's who pile on generally have some kinda rebuttal, but you gotta add the toxic comments too. V has a problem with automatically having 'Paul is wrong' as a stance, you guys have a problem with automatically having 'V is wrong' as a stance. That's an equivalency that works. V has the mildest form of aggression I've ever seen though, and his biases on Paul don't really effect anyone but himself (unless you let it) because I'm almost certain Zoat has got him on ignore. You guys have the most self-righteous form of aggression I've ever seen for the most trivial shit, and while V seems to be fine with it, it's still aggressively mobbing the unpopular kid.
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You are right so far as V has a 'Paul is wrong stance', but you're wrong in that our, or at east my, stance is that Vaermina is automatically wrong. It's that he almost aslways proves hmself to be wrong. You'll notice that people are corroborating V's math as an example, and that I make sure to point out when I don't know something.

And yes, reputation does matter. Especially when it is a reputation he has cultivated painstakingly over 7 years, even if I wasn't their for most of it. He is almost always condescending when he points something out as a rule, which is why we are in turn hostile to him.

As for his biases not affecting anyone, they do. It's like a street preacher outside your house, except you can ignore him with a metaphorical earmuff. I don't justify myself by the fact that Vaermine annoys me, however, since it's up to me to mute him, since I find equal amounts of amusement and I get to argue with someone as well. It's the fact that if the street preacher is outside shouting, he doesn't have ay ground to stand on when someone shots back.

LurkingInTheDeceit said:
Or what I actually see: 'If they don't try to stop or change their stance, even when piled on and aggressively mocked, they deserve what's comin to em'. Because we all know having a personal head canon despite someone on the internet disagreeing with you, is grounds for whatever insult you can think of.
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No, it's the fact that he consistently produced irrelevant evidence, sometimes directly contradicted by WoZ multiple times, comes up with the most convoluted arguments to justify Paul being wrong, acts condescending while doing so and has continued to do so continuosly.

LurkingInTheDeceit said:
I'm not seeing it, overly certain maybe, aggressive and self-righteous? Nah.
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Like I said, I can pull up quotes from his search history if you want.

FeepingCreature said:
Seconding that Vaermina is, unusually, actually right here. A million ton of neutronium has a mass of a million tons, which is basically nothing on a planetary scale. Now, a million cubic tons of neutronium at neutron star density... would still only raise Pluto's mass by 3%.

A million of a human-scale volumetric unit simply isn't gonna make any impression on a planet.
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Like I said back before, it's not the gravitational pull of the nuetronium that's accelerating the ship, that's simply a hypothetical worst case scenario.
Mr Zoat said:
"Tractor beam. Strapped-on thrusters that are still stealthed, somehow. Some extreme-density materials escaping some sort of suppression field and causing a sudden change in local gravity. Some types of exotic portal. And… Probably other things. It might just be that someone was messing around with the ClusterShip's artificial gravity system, but-."
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Mr Zoat said:
Okay, worse case scenario… Someone stuck a million tonnes of neutronium down there in a zero-tau field that was breached by the mining laser. That's… Still not a threat to anything other than this ship and us. And… Our movement downwards appears to be accelerating. Not.. to a terrifying rate, but I'm a little concerned.
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hkim said:
You'll get there eventually. Some start by giving Vaermina the benefit of the doubt, none end up there.
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Seconded. Sooner or later you figure out that Vaermina is just here to bitch about the story, and will do so whether there is actually any legitimate reason to bitch or not. Which 99% of the time is the latter. In other words, Vaermina is a troll.

Massgamer said:
My best guess is that mining laser woke up a Pluto sized Star Conqueror that the Star Hunters wanted to free.

If that is the case that means the OLC and GLC need to be called in to deal with it.
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Yeah, that seems pretty obvious. I'm a little boggled that the possibility hasn't occurred to OL yet. You'd think it would occur to him to try to figure out why they were shooting what amounts to a dirty snowball with a mining laser and that possibility would be very near the top of the list.

For some reason everyone involved (except maybe Koriand'r, whose background and lack of knowledge regarding Star Conquerors give her an excuse) seems to be holding an idiot ball. Moreso than usually in Kahn's case.

Not that OL holding an idiot ball is especially unusual mind you. OL minus the idiot ball is the ridiculously OP Common Sense Paul.
 
I might be agreeing with Vaermina here, depending on what a zero-tau field is.
A cubic mile of neutronium is 8.336e27 kg. If you put that on Pluto, you wouldn't have a Pluto anymore. It would fall in to the neutronium under a gravity higher than the surface of the sun. For all of 27 picoseconds until the neutronium went hypernova for lack of suitable mass and pressure to maintain compression. That much mass would be detectable from anywhere in the solar system. The GPSs in our phones and satellites would be pinging errors like crazy as their calculated orbital paths diverted enough to desynch them from their telemetry. Our telescopes would be swinging to the outer solar system to see what new gas hypergiant we just captured and if we'd just become a binary star system.
Now, if a zero-tau field stops time then maybe this is somehow tenable. But then how do you turn the damn thing off without Jupiter evaporating?
Neutronium is less of a threat pound-per-pound than an antimatter bomb - but that's a hell of a lot of pounds you got there. 1/250th of the sun.
But... maybe that isn't a threat to a Lantern? It's entirely normal physics, aside from whatever the zero-tau field is, and so sufficiently advanced Clarketech ring might not give any shits at all about how many solar masses you've got. Just huck the entire thing into subspace with a big orange "Mine!"?
 
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Mr Zoat said:
I'm happy to change it again.
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I don't think you should have to. The SI referenced an arbitrarily huge amount of neutronium as a worst-case scenario, it is therefore, at this point, purely hypothetical. Assuming that the speculation that this is actually going to be about a Star Conqueror buried under the ice is actually accurate, than the neutronium will remain hypothetical. This will render the discussion about how much neutronium "should" be there, moot.
 
Mr Zoat said:
If someone with a better knowledge of physics than me can suggest a reasonable amount of neutronium to have the desired effect, I'm happy to change it again. I'm not wedded to a particular quantity.
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To go from the same gravitational pull exerted by Pluto at a given distance to the same gravitational pull exerted by the Moon at the same distance, you'd need to add about sixty quintillion tonnes. If you instead wanted the gravitational pull exerted by Triton (the moon of Neptune), you'd need around seven quintillion tonnes. But at those scales, you'd probably be more likely ot think of it in terms of 'Europa's mass in neutronium' or something along those lines.
 
Mr Zoat said:
If someone with a better knowledge of physics than me can suggest a reasonable amount of neutronium to have the desired effect, I'm happy to change it again. I'm not wedded to a particular quantity.
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Hey Zoat, Making an assumption that to set the ClusterShip moving despite the systems to prevent it, would require the gravity of pluto to change by at least 1.5x

The ship can certainly handle stronger gravity than that, but likely any automated system is set up to compensate within some tolerance , sensibly expecting that a planet's gravity is not likely to change more than 1.5x unless the ship has been moved. (presumably by a non-addled crewmember). Or some very odd things are happening (Again time for a crewmember)

That pretty much requires another half of pluto's mass in neutronium. (Assuming just neutron star matter here). In Kgs that's a meaninglessly large number: 26,000,000,000,000,000,000,000Kg. So probably best to just leave it as a conceptual. Million Tons = Fukin' Heavy

Alternatively if you wanna go for volume its not so mental. Post-it note maths gives you 10,000 cubic metres of neutron star material. Admittedly still a pretty cheeky amount of neutron star material to just leave lying around, but the numbers look alright.
 
Atharos said:
Hey Zoat, Making an assumption that to set the ClusterShip moving despite the systems to prevent it, would require the gravity of pluto to change by at least 1.5x

The ship can certainly handle stronger gravity than that, but likely any automated system is set up to compensate within some tolerance , sensibly expecting that a planet's gravity is not likely to change more than 1.5x unless the ship has been moved. (presumably by a non-addled crewmember). Or some very odd things are happening (Again time for a crewmember)

That pretty much requires another half of pluto's mass in neutronium. (Assuming just neutron star matter here). In Kgs that's a meaninglessly large number: 26,000,000,000,000,000,000,000Kg. So probably best to just leave it as a conceptual. Million Tons = Fukin' Heavy

Alternatively if you wanna go for volume its not so mental. Post-it note maths gives you 10,000 cubic metres of neutron star material. Admittedly still a pretty cheeky amount of neutron star material to just leave lying around, but the numbers look alright.
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Thank you, amended.
 
Idkusername said:
That was just the quote I had readily available at hand. I'm not inclined to sort through his posting history, but I can do it if you want to. And he most assuredly does not act that way only while responding.
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That was actually quite aggressive by V's standards from everything I've seen, not aggressive by any other standard though.

Idkusername said:
It's that he almost aslways proves hmself to be wrong
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Every time they are right, they basically get the same initial treatment. This time they were right, the first comment responding to them was this:

Darko said:
Please stop trying to make it seem like you actually know anything. It's getting increasingly pathetic every time you try it.
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Idkusername said:
Like I said, I can pull up quotes from his search history if you want.
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I'd say go ahead, but while it seems like it sometimes 'This isn't the V discussion thread' and I'm not sure you could convince me anyway. I went back 8 pages when pulling those quotes, and I didn't see anything I could call insulting to another poster by V. So even if you found something way back, the volume difference could almost justify anything V could say as self-defence.

I'm gonna stop here, you guys obviously feel you're fully justified in how aggressive/insulting you're being and I can't exactly stop you, so just gonna have to leave it.
 
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